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On October 30 2018 09:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:35 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:09 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 08:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 08:54 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That's a low count for sure, but your position is that the threat of terrorism is a non-factor in this country? From white supremacists in the country, absolutely. They don't have the network and resources to cause serious harm like other extra-territorial terrorist threats. What are some recent examples of the more serious harm caused by those threats? You can have your pick of Muslim extremist terrorism. There are numerous incidents every year here and around the world. Hell, they just tried to assassinate Trump in the Philippines a few weeks ago. I asked for recent examples of more serious harm caused and you didn't give me any. You can’t possibly be that ignorant of Muslim terrorism can you? Bataclan? Nice? Boston Marathon? Stabbings in London? And that’s before we get into the bombings that kill hundreds of people at a time in non-Western countries. No, I just didn't want to presume what attacks you were referencing. Just to be clear, you think the stabbings in London are an example of more relevant and harmful attacks to Americans than domestic white supremacist terrorists? It is an incontrovertible fact that global terrorist organizations are actively trying to attack the US and have successfully done so since 9/11. They just tried to assassinate the President. You are living in a fantasy world if you don’t think that they constitute a bigger problem for the US than white supremacists. No, my world is the one where if I go to the wrong bar at the wrong time or say the wrong thing I could be the next headline. I feel absolutely no threat of some international terrorist harming me or people I know personally. I take this as you walking back your previous position to a more comfortable "bigger problem" categorization. Your feelings are not statistically supported. And no, I haven’t walked back anything.
No, they are. I'm far more likely to be a victim of a hate crime/white supremacy than I am an international terrorist attack. I'm open to statistics that would show otherwise though. As you pointed out, if I lived in Chicago international terrorists wouldn't even register on the list of threats.
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I also take issue with the incontrovertible fact that international terrorist are a huge threat to the US. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks post 9/11 have been done by domestic terrorist. And mass shootings like the one on the weekend are not ever classified as terrorism.
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You can tell the midterms are close because all the politicians aren’t drumming on about the guns used and talking about banning them.
Sanders has reasons to take this position, but for all the vitriol and insanity in politics, I’m thankful he’s doing this publicly as a beacon for others.
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On October 30 2018 10:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2018 09:59 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:35 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:09 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 08:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 08:54 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
From white supremacists in the country, absolutely. They don't have the network and resources to cause serious harm like other extra-territorial terrorist threats. What are some recent examples of the more serious harm caused by those threats? You can have your pick of Muslim extremist terrorism. There are numerous incidents every year here and around the world. Hell, they just tried to assassinate Trump in the Philippines a few weeks ago. I asked for recent examples of more serious harm caused and you didn't give me any. You can’t possibly be that ignorant of Muslim terrorism can you? Bataclan? Nice? Boston Marathon? Stabbings in London? And that’s before we get into the bombings that kill hundreds of people at a time in non-Western countries. No, I just didn't want to presume what attacks you were referencing. Just to be clear, you think the stabbings in London are an example of more relevant and harmful attacks to Americans than domestic white supremacist terrorists? It is an incontrovertible fact that global terrorist organizations are actively trying to attack the US and have successfully done so since 9/11. They just tried to assassinate the President. You are living in a fantasy world if you don’t think that they constitute a bigger problem for the US than white supremacists. No, my world is the one where if I go to the wrong bar at the wrong time or say the wrong thing I could be the next headline. I feel absolutely no threat of some international terrorist harming me or people I know personally. I take this as you walking back your previous position to a more comfortable "bigger problem" categorization. Your feelings are not statistically supported. And no, I haven’t walked back anything. No, they are. I'm far more likely to be a victim of a hate crime/white supremacy than I am an international terrorist attack. I'm open to statistics that would show otherwise though. As you pointed out, if I lived in Chicago international terrorists wouldn't even register on the list of threats.
Nope, it's not really close if we are to take the numbers that Foreign Policy is reporting as accurate. You're comparing 49 homicides from white supremacists to thousands of homicides (just in the US) from Muslim extremists during the same period.
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Thousands? Citation needed.
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On October 30 2018 10:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2018 10:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:59 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:35 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:23 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 09:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 30 2018 09:09 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 08:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
What are some recent examples of the more serious harm caused by those threats?
You can have your pick of Muslim extremist terrorism. There are numerous incidents every year here and around the world. Hell, they just tried to assassinate Trump in the Philippines a few weeks ago. I asked for recent examples of more serious harm caused and you didn't give me any. You can’t possibly be that ignorant of Muslim terrorism can you? Bataclan? Nice? Boston Marathon? Stabbings in London? And that’s before we get into the bombings that kill hundreds of people at a time in non-Western countries. No, I just didn't want to presume what attacks you were referencing. Just to be clear, you think the stabbings in London are an example of more relevant and harmful attacks to Americans than domestic white supremacist terrorists? It is an incontrovertible fact that global terrorist organizations are actively trying to attack the US and have successfully done so since 9/11. They just tried to assassinate the President. You are living in a fantasy world if you don’t think that they constitute a bigger problem for the US than white supremacists. No, my world is the one where if I go to the wrong bar at the wrong time or say the wrong thing I could be the next headline. I feel absolutely no threat of some international terrorist harming me or people I know personally. I take this as you walking back your previous position to a more comfortable "bigger problem" categorization. Your feelings are not statistically supported. And no, I haven’t walked back anything. No, they are. I'm far more likely to be a victim of a hate crime/white supremacy than I am an international terrorist attack. I'm open to statistics that would show otherwise though. As you pointed out, if I lived in Chicago international terrorists wouldn't even register on the list of threats. Nope, it's not really close if we are to take the numbers that Foreign Policy is reporting as accurate. You're comparing 49 homicides from white supremacists to thousands of homicides (just in the US) from Muslim extremists during the same period.
I don't take it as accurate, I used it to show even the same organization that thought MLK jr was the most dangerous Black man in the country recognizes white supremacy extremists are the most dangerous domestic group prone to terrorist attacks.
It's just that with all the talk about Democrats terrifying Republicans it's good to know that you actually think domestic terrorism being a threat, especially from the left, is nowhere near a significant threat.
Helps put the faux concern (about the threat of domestic terrorism) displayed by some in the party after the baseball shooting into perspective.
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On October 30 2018 08:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2018 07:30 iamthedave wrote:On October 30 2018 06:52 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 04:37 iamthedave wrote:On October 30 2018 03:56 xDaunt wrote:
Of course she's being attacked personally. As is the Trump administration. The media is going out of its way to juxtapose Trump with Nazis, yet they wonder why he calls them "the enemy of the people." If he'd stop using the language of nazis and fascists people might not make the comparisons. Just a suggestion. The problem is that a bunch of you have decided that he is using the language of Nazis rather than just taking what he says at face value. You think everything Trump says is a dog whistle, which is a categorically stupid misunderstanding and misconstruction of the man. You need look no further than your feeble attempts to pin anti-Semitism on Trump as evidence of how bankrupt this line of thinking is. On October 30 2018 04:13 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 04:06 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2018 03:56 xDaunt wrote:
Of course she's being attacked personally. As is the Trump administration. The media is going out of its way to juxtapose Trump with Nazis, yet they wonder why he calls them "the enemy of the people." 9 people were gunned down in an anti-Semitic shooting, but the White House is the victim. Bombs were sent to CNN, but it’s the press’s fault because they are unfair. FYI: That is the job. The press isn’t in the business of praising government. The president has always be the punching bag of the nation when things go wrong. It isn’t a job for the thin skinned. Trump wants to be praised, which isn’t a thing that happens in his current job. It’s why he loves dictators so much. In Trump’s own words, he attacks them to discredit them so no one will believe them. It is weird the news reporters instantly fold to a tactic as old as their entire profession. The point is that the White House has nothing to do with the shooting up of a synagogue. Trump is not instigating anti-semitism. Hell, he's the most pro-Jewish president that we've ever had. Yet here is the press needlessly and quite unfairly painting a narrative that Trump is somehow responsible for the actions of a crazed Nazi shooter who already said that he doesn't support Trump because he thinks that Trump is a "globalist." A fair and responsible media would simply leave Trump out of this. But no, they are so in-the-tank, anti-Trump that they can't help themselves but to try and twist every bad thing that happens in this country into being Trump's fault. The press is deserving of every ounce of scorn that the President heaps on it, just as the press is deserving of its cratering credibility in the eyes of the American people. Do you not care about how often he lies? Is truth literally irrelevant to you now? Because a big part of why the press are all over him is his constant lying. Lying about what? In his own way, Trump is quite direct and honest in a way that politicians aren't in that he communicates precisely what he intends to do. I find it quite refreshing. In terms of pure representations of facts, I don't find that Trump deviates much from the norm among politicians. And quite a bit of what the press accuses Trump of lying about ends up being true, so I'm not particularly interested in what the press thinks. Like I said, they aren't interested in giving Trump a fair shake, and they routinely make shit up about him. There's a reason why #fakenews is a thing. I mean, this is low hanging fruit, so I'll just leave this here and let you refute these factual lies one by one. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.htmlI'm sure you'll find a way to avoid it though, since you've had the gall to claim he doesn't lie constantly when that is literally his most defining feature (that isn't his hair). That article is ridiculous. Let's just start with the first two items on there: Show nested quote +JAN. 21 “I wasn't a fan of Iraq. I didn't want to go into Iraq.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.) So they link to a Howard Stern interview that Trump gave in 2002, where all he says is "Yeah, I guess so" when asked whether he was in favor of invading Iraq. Really? That's supposed to be a measured decision on policy that he's to be held to? Show nested quote +JAN. 21 “A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.” (Trump was on the cover 11 times and Nixon appeared 55 times.) This one is just retarded. Trump is off a bit on how many times he has been on the cover of Time (big deal), and then he admits that he only "thinks" that he has been on there more than anyone else. Yet this is a lie? Hardly. The people who wrote that NYT article have a deranged hard on for taking down Trump. Show nested quote +Oh yeah, and the Birther conspiracy. And that time he wanted 5 black people executed despite them being exonerated for a long time afterward. And all the times he's claimed people have said things they haven't. I'd be here until next week. I made clear that I didn't like the Birther thing and still don't.
So there's one MASSIVE lie he told. From the article you predictably wriggled out of facing up to:
“Between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused me to lose the popular vote.”
“Now, the audience was the biggest ever. But this crowd was massive. Look how far back it goes. This crowd was massive.”
“Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)”
“So, look, when President Obama was there two weeks ago making a speech, very nice speech. Two people were shot and killed during his speech. You can't have that.”
“The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers.”
In order:
1. There's never been any evidence of voter fraud produced by anyone. Trump still repeats this from time to time.
2. Again, he still rolls this one out despite it being categorically untrue, with every form of evidence you could ask for to prove it.
3. Those reports do not show this.
4. Nobody was killed that day (at least not people shot as he claimed).
5. The Times never apologised.
So there's five lies you neatly avoided and the Birther Conspiracy which, at least, you didn't try to ignore. It's farcical to claim Trump isn't a liar who lies to the American people. He literally repeats some of the quantifiable lies from that article to this day, and he tells new ones on a daily basis. That isn't 'an attack from the left', it's reality. It costs you nothing to admit this, and I'm baffled that you're choosing this hill to die on given how much obvious proof there is that he's a liar. He's even lied about things happening in my country.
And yes, lie is the word. You can say 'okay he's an idiot who knows nothing and doesn't care to learn', that would mean he's just grotesquely misinformed and believes the stuff he says. That would mean most of it isn't lying, just that he's wrong about basically everything. But then most of these could easily have been cleared up by a) not repeating them and b) stating the truth once he learned it.
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Oh, so it’s no longer since 9/11. Now it’s including 9/11 and then includes anything else that people labeled Terrorism, rather than “lone wolves”. I was wondering how we were going to get to thousands when it is around 200 people since 9/11.
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Speaking of white nationalism and racism, Trump lies here and says he is going to end birth right citizenship. He can’t do it, the 14th amendment exists. But it doesn’t matter because just like the the caravan, this is all a pre election ploy to drive his base. And as we have seen, his supporters lap it up.
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And in other flagrant lying news: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/413692-sanders-says-trump-won-by-overwhelming-majority-of-63-million
Because they can never let the election results go and need to spin an alternate reality where Trump didn't just win, he won bigly, instead of losing the popular vote by the largest amount in history but winning the electoral college (by, if not a historical amount, a lot). How can the media do anything but attack lies this blatant?
@Plansix: I'm sure everyone can be appropriately outraged over this obvious bit of executive over-reach. Has a President ever overturned a part of the constitution by exec order?
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Yet more proof of the anti-right bias in the media, I'm afraid. You can't just go making reports about facts and expect the right to take it lying down. The left has been using facts to prove republicans wrong in America now for years, its the main reason Trump got elected in the first place, normal Americans understand this.
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@dave not that I am aware of. This is an election ploy to try and force democrats to argue in favor of birthright citizenship. Most of them have not taken the bait.
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I have been quite enjoying the talk from lefty journos about how the 14th amendment's birthright citizenship right is a sacrosanct part of the constitution, where previously the 2nd amendment and 1st amendment really protect nothing much.
But of course he has no power to change any of that by executive order, and shouldn't pretend he does.
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Birthright citizenship for anchor babies is something that will be decided by the Supreme Court. It's not locked in stone at all.
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On October 30 2018 19:21 Plansix wrote:Oh, so it’s no longer since 9/11. Now it’s including 9/11 and then includes anything else that people labeled Terrorism, rather than “lone wolves”. I was wondering how we were going to get to thousands when it is around 200 people since 9/11.
I had to include 9/11 because GH's figures for white supremacist homicides start in 2000. Fair is fair. Even if you throw out 9/11, there are still more Muslim-terrorism-related homicides than white supremacist homicides in the US. Toss in sophisticated global networks, reach, and financing, all of the failed attempted schemes, and the sheer amount of resources that US defense and intelligence agencies are throwing at Muslim terrorism, and there simply is no denying that Muslim terrorism is the much bigger threat. Like I said, it's not even close. Yet y'all simply must focus on evil whitey. What do we call that kind of irrational racial animus? Oh, that's right: RACISM.
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Pretty sure it was already decided by the Supreme Court at least once. But that has never slowed conservatives down from hoping to overturn at 40, 50 or 100 year old legal precedent.
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There's a false dichotomy going on here between muslim terrorism and white supremacy terrorism.
They are both right wing, racist attacks and deserve exactly the same treatment.
They are the same but with different skin colour.
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On October 31 2018 00:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2018 19:21 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2018 11:45 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 11:36 Plansix wrote:
Thousands? Citation needed. Well, start with 3,000 or so killed on 9/11, and then add roughly another 125-130 from other incidents. Hell, 50 people died in the Orlando night club shooting alone. Oh, so it’s no longer since 9/11. Now it’s including 9/11 and then includes anything else that people labeled Terrorism, rather than “lone wolves”. I was wondering how we were going to get to thousands when it is around 200 people since 9/11. I had to include 9/11 because GH's figures for white supremacist homicides start in 2000. Fair is fair. Even if you throw out 9/11, there are still more Muslim-terrorism-related homicides than white supremacist homicides in the US. Toss in sophisticated global networks, reach, and financing, all of the failed attempted schemes, and the sheer amount of resources that US defense and intelligence agencies are throwing at Muslim terrorism, and there simply is no denying that Muslim terrorism is the much bigger threat. Like I said, it's not even close. Yet y'all simply must focus on evil whitey. What do we call that kind of irrational racial animus? Oh, that's right: RACISM.
Weighting 200 deaths vs 50ish deaths and saying one is drastically more important than the other is a difficult to justify, in my mind. By pure numbers alone, white nationalism should at least be second on the terrorism watch list of groups to worry about.
And this all assumes that we have complete, perfect information. Given the level of disinterest that the government has had in the subject of domestic terrorism in the last 10 years, I’m not convinced. Especially with the stories from the early 2000s and FBI report that white nationalists were infiltrating law enforcement.
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On October 31 2018 00:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2018 19:21 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2018 11:45 xDaunt wrote:On October 30 2018 11:36 Plansix wrote:
Thousands? Citation needed. Well, start with 3,000 or so killed on 9/11, and then add roughly another 125-130 from other incidents. Hell, 50 people died in the Orlando night club shooting alone. Oh, so it’s no longer since 9/11. Now it’s including 9/11 and then includes anything else that people labeled Terrorism, rather than “lone wolves”. I was wondering how we were going to get to thousands when it is around 200 people since 9/11. I had to include 9/11 because GH's figures for white supremacist homicides start in 2000. Fair is fair. Even if you throw out 9/11, there are still more Muslim-terrorism-related homicides than white supremacist homicides in the US. Toss in sophisticated global networks, reach, and financing, all of the failed attempted schemes, and the sheer amount of resources that US defense and intelligence agencies are throwing at Muslim terrorism, and there simply is no denying that Muslim terrorism is the much bigger threat. Like I said, it's not even close. Yet y'all simply must focus on evil whitey. What do we call that kind of irrational racial animus? Oh, that's right: RACISM.
I appreciate your strong stance on this matter. You are therefore strongly in favour of immediate sanctions on Saudi Arabia, given that they are among the biggest single supporters of muslim terrorism in the middle east? You are also very strongly against selling guns to them given that many of those firearms will end up in the hands of said terrorists?
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EPT
