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Valhalla18444 Posts
I really didn't mind chibi when he was here. He kind of gave off that village idiot vibe (mostly cuz he was drunk half the time). He's essentially harmless, and Kwark brought up a great point by mentioning Mora. I really don't doubt Beyonder would react in a similar way to Mora if he were homophobic, although definitely less severe because Mora is a top-notch poster. It's an interesting parallel though, because both Chibi and Mora have atypical views on sex and will both go into detail when probed (given Mora does do more articulately).
For me its exactly the same thing, because fucking a 15 year old is the same place on my list as fucking a dude: in the "Not Gonna Happen" section. But I liked that Chibi would entertain viewpoints that differed from his, and remained incredibly collected when people were being deliberately obtuse. Out of the thousands of posts Chibi had, it can't accurately be said that "all he posts about is fucking lil children." That shows incredible bias and ignorance towards Chibi as a poster.
On top of this Chibi has been here for forever and a half. It seemed odd to me that he would be handed a permanent ban at a time where he really had been toning down his posts on the subject (please don't argue this, I can count on one hand the number of people who would disagree with this statement and none of them will look past their own bias). Chibi really is one of the 'characters' here, and there are a bunch of other posters I would think should go before he would. People like myself, baal, and incontrol get away with more than Chibi was banned for. Incontrol is definitely entitled to this leniency. I'm not sure why baal and I get it (I say this because the people that have a strong distaste for me around here have no problem overlooking the various things i do or have done for TL/sc and holding select posts over my head), besides the fact that we've been here forever as well.
I don't really like the method of moderation that takes place here either, but given the fact that I take advantage of the leniency I get I'm in no position to complain. Hell, I'll even finish this post without a snide remark to Beyonder.
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United States44402 Posts
On March 21 2007 09:36 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2007 09:34 Kwark wrote:On March 21 2007 09:27 Beyonder wrote:
Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about. Erm. Before topic he wasn't banned. After topic he was. You believe that what he said in that topic wasn't banworthy. You ban him. And I'm some guy who posts on this website. Who the fuck are you? The single act, no. The whole picture, yes for sure. Can't you read? Continuing to adress a topic he vouched not to adress. Continueing to hint and it on every possibility. He broke the rules set out for him after 7 bans. Not to forget that he should have been banned a LONG TIME AGO, but that doesnt count as much.
Yes, I can read. And the whole picture wasn't enough to ban him before that topic, given that he wasn't banned at that point. And the whole picture was enough to ban him after that topic. Therefore it stands to reason that the tipping point was that topic. Something that you claim not to be true. I will demonstrate this logically if I must.
A = Whole picture before topic.
B = Whole picture after topic.
C = Value of topic.
1 = Arbitary banning figure.
A+C=B
A<1 (Chibi was able to post before topic)
B>1 (Chibi was unable to post after topic)
Therefore C>0.
Something you claim not to be the case when you say that the topic did not merit a ban.
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btw hot topic
fun drama
nice way to spend a study break ^_________^
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Canada3819 Posts
On March 21 2007 09:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2007 09:27 Smurg wrote:
Chibi being gone is sad.
Kinda like 2pac being shot when he was so young.
Eri, what do you mean by this?: "the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to
moderate."
What happened after he was banned? Just 'general trouble making'? what happened was that first chibi was banned with very little reason, and beyonder saying he would leave the site if he was unbanned. then we had a big discussion about it, and the moderators mostly agreed (with a couple fence sitters and me and travis being opposed) that he should not be unbanned. then, saro started digging and found out that chibi had been banned 8 times in the past, but this happened while we were deciding how to explain the ban to the public ; not before he was banned. not to mention that temp bans are only supposed to lead to a permanent ban if they are followed by further fuckups, in this case we had a temp ban leading to a permanent ban due to one moderators strong feelings, and many moderators unwillingness to go against that moderator. chibi did not break any rules or posting guidelines after returning from his previous temp ban. (that temp ban could easily have been a permanent one though, and even I would not be objecting much then. ) however when we first temp ban someone, and that someone then cleans up his act, I don't understand how my fellow moderators can argue that permanently banning him afterwards is correct.
Ah I see.
The thing is, Chibi seemingly doesn't take on board all that he should, he's volatile...but I think that's his freedom as a poster. He had many quality and humorous posts, he had interesting insights into things and he was fairly clever with words when he wanted to be.
Sure there was something inside him that made him want to post on here while drunk/stoned or whatever but that was just what made him 'famous'. Now it's turned into such a big drama over such a small period of time, sure some of what he is saying is sensitive. But with that 'SHIP ME YOUR SISTER' thread...he was probably drunk, feeling random and wanting to shock TL.net or something absurd like that.
Somehow to me he characterises HARMLESS, he doesn't 'properly' act like how I'd expect a real pedophile to act, instead it seems he's trying to play the 'shock' card in most cases.
I guess all that he needed to learn was to not log on to TL.net whilst wasted. Bad consequences for him, but I don't think he should be banned...but see, now his image is even bigger than before. Along with Stimey and Hovz, I guess he's the most talked about TL.net member.
Notoriety it would seem is much more powerful than fitting your typical 'average' or 'good' poster haha.
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Norway28917 Posts
On March 21 2007 09:31 MYM.Testie wrote:
Eri, you didn't answer that other thing you agreed with in baals post. This site becoming worse / what makes Chibi matter?
"this forum suddenly took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left..."
i do believe this kind of moderation is harmful to the site. i don't necessarily agree with that one line, but I chose to regard it as a pretty insignificant one. from baal's point of view it makes sense tho because most of his old tl buddies moved to liquidpoker and he hasnt posted enough recently to notice all the awesome newcomers.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 21 2007 09:36 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2007 09:34 Kwark wrote:On March 21 2007 09:27 Beyonder wrote:
Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about. Erm. Before topic he wasn't banned. After topic he was. You believe that what he said in that topic wasn't banworthy. You ban him. And I'm some guy who posts on this website. Who the fuck are you? The single act, no. The whole picture, yes for sure. Can't you read? Continuing to adress a topic he vouched not to adress. Continueing to hint and it on every possibility. He broke the rules set out for him after 7 bans. Not to forget that he should have been banned a LONG TIME AGO, but that doesnt count as much.
If he isn't banned from the getgo, things like this become just a 'character quirk' because we know he's harmless. After that point is reached, banning him fucks up the status quo which its your job as a moderator to maintain.
What you did is incredibly petty and I don't think you're helping the situation by denying that.
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The only thing that needs real fixing on tl.net is the damn search function. Seriously, what the fuck!
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Canada3819 Posts
This thread is going to rend a few things asunder. :/
Things need to be said, but somehow what's done is done. If Chibi isn't coming back, no amount of words can be said to bring him back - it's final.
So I suppose we have nothing to do now apart from to pick each other apart. We're becoming divided quite quickly over this issue.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 21 2007 09:49 Smurg wrote:
This thread is going to rend a few things asunder. :/
Things need to be said, but somehow what's done is done. If Chibi isn't coming back, no amount of words can be said to bring him back - it's final.
So I suppose we have nothing to do now apart from to pick each other apart. We're becoming divided quite quickly over this issue.
its a broad issue and we're being civil about it, not exactly a destructive practice 
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On March 21 2007 09:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
testie
the fuck do you know
we had a huge discussion about this in the men in red forum
I've talked to chibi about how the process went
I assume chibi talked to baal
baal is correct, chibi was not banned for causing trouble, he was banned due to one moderator having a huge personal bias against him. beyonder instigated chibi far more than the other way around, beyonder actively went out of his way to taunt chibi, while chibi merely posted about stuff that interests him with no intention of offending anyone. in fact his post in the thread that got him banned was an eloquent post which was backed up by facts which supported a view he had about homosexuality. beyonder, despite this, flames the post, in addition incontrol asks chibi what the deal about him and pedophelia is, then chibi posts more about pedophelia (BY REQUEST), and beyonder bans him for it.
the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate.
I can't believe you're saying this when you were right there when 20 mods were discussing it, it wasn't like this at all. Beyonder banned Chibi, everyone said this is not acceptable before discussing the ban, and everyone agreed that we should discuss whether Chibi should be banned or not regardless of what Bey did or said.
The discussion about Chibi had nothing to do with Beyonder prematurely banning him and you damn well know this. You were right there when everyone discussed it. The discussion was completely about Chibi and the fact that he was prematurely banned or that Beyonder made an ultimatum (for which he later apologized and had no influence on the discussion for ANY of the admins) had absolutely nothing to do with each mods motivations.
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He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Apparently Drone is angry and trying to retaliate or something? Hate the Dutchman!
Cant believe he really sees it this way. I can understand he doesnt like what happened and that he appreciates Chibi in the community, but.. well see Naz's post. wtf.
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Hey mani, are you sure chibi was banned more then me?
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On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote:
He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
Bey: If he doesn't stay banned I am not meant to be a mod
Rest: Take that back right now that is not how we deal with things around here, we will continue discussing Chibi the way we were
Bey: I am terribly sorry it was emotions talking, but I have very strong feelings about the subject
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
And if the mod team had decided Chibi should stay on TL and Bey would leave TL then so be it but these kind of things are simply unwanted from mods and I believe Bey knows it.
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On March 21 2007 09:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2007 09:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
testie
the fuck do you know
we had a huge discussion about this in the men in red forum
I've talked to chibi about how the process went
I assume chibi talked to baal
baal is correct, chibi was not banned for causing trouble, he was banned due to one moderator having a huge personal bias against him. beyonder instigated chibi far more than the other way around, beyonder actively went out of his way to taunt chibi, while chibi merely posted about stuff that interests him with no intention of offending anyone. in fact his post in the thread that got him banned was an eloquent post which was backed up by facts which supported a view he had about homosexuality. beyonder, despite this, flames the post, in addition incontrol asks chibi what the deal about him and pedophelia is, then chibi posts more about pedophelia (BY REQUEST), and beyonder bans him for it.
the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate.
I can't believe you're saying this when you were right there when 20 mods were discussing it, it wasn't like this at all. Beyonder banned Chibi, everyone said this is not acceptable before discussing the ban, and everyone agreed that we should discuss whether Chibi should be banned or not regardless of what Bey did or said. The discussion about Chibi had nothing to do with Beyonder prematurely banning him and you damn well know this. You were right there when everyone discussed it. The discussion was completely about Chibi and the fact that he was prematurely banned or that Beyonder made an ultimatum (for which he later apologized and had no influence on the discussion for ANY of the admins) had absolutely nothing to do with each mods motivations.
I don't see how what you are saying happened and what Drone is saying happened are at odds. According to you both the ban itself WAS premature and the other men in red agreed on that. From that point, however, the whole nature of the discussion inherently changes from "Has Chibi done enough to deserve this ban?" to "Has Chibi done enough to warrant an unban?" which are two completely different discussions. Drone and other are upset that the discussion inherently took place AFTER the act instead of the usual course. Once Beyonder apologized for the ultimatum, you guys didn't unban Chibi and shift the argument back to the first question. The argument was already shifted so suggesting that the premature banning and ultimatum had no effect on the discussions is a little unfair.
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Had this this thread been left unwritten, the public would have surely acquiesced in the fait accompli. As it is, the justification of accounts has led to the awakening of public opinion, which, unleashed in its full fury, is the most destructive tyrant of all.
It whiffs of 1789, where, in unnecessary royalist appeals to public opinion in the reinstatement Jacques Neckar, the government accelerated the cascade into the great civil war, leading to the demise of the Ancien Regime.
My hope is of course, that whatever minor differences of principle separate the moderators, they remain sympathetic to each other's opinions. Drone, whose populist sympathies have cast him in the role of the Duc d'Orleans, may be especially advised to be on guard against his 16th Brumaire.
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Norway28917 Posts
i love dutch men
it's my second favourite country in the world
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On March 21 2007 10:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Had this this thread been left unwritten, the public would have surely acquiesced in the fait accompli. As it is, the justification of accounts has led to the awakening of public opinion, which, unleashed in its full fury, is the most destructive tyrant of all.
It whiffs of 1789, where, in unnecessary royalist appeals to public opinion in the reinstatement Jacques Neckar, the government accelerated the cascade into the great civil war, leading to the demise of the Ancien Regime.
My hope is of course, that whatever minor differences of principle separate the moderators, they remain sympathetic to each other's opinions. Drone, whose populist sympathies have cast him in the role of the Duc d'Orleans, may be especially advised to be on guard against his 16th Brumaire.
I will never understand what you are saying moltke.
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Have any of you actually met Mora??
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[edit oops >_< double posting in a thread swarming with mods. not good.]
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EPT
