An explanation of why Chibi was banned - Written by Saro, this is an accumulation of the thoughts discussed in the admin lounge. It is not the opinion of all the staff, and there are numerous people who disagree.
For the last week there has been a heated debate in our staff forum regarding whether or not we should permanently ban Chibi. Understandably, there are a wide variety of opinions on this matter, some more fervent than others, some in agreement and others in disagreement about what the outcome should be. As the site staff, we strive to make these types of decisions as a team, reach an agreement, and then present a united front of solidarity behind it - or at least that's the goal. We're all human though, obviously, and sometimes there are strong disagreements - we really do have a diverse group of people with different backgrounds and different views, and often all sides of an argument are well represented. But ultimately, we do need to reach decisions, and we try to do so in a democratic fashion, where all opinions are weighed, and an decision is made by the majority.
The debate was wide-ranging, from the issue of allowing an admitted pedophile to post here, and whether that meant we as staff were condoning and thus endorsing pedophilia, and consequently what our duties were as moderators of this site - versus the idea of freedom of speech and "thought-policing" or telling people what they should think, and how that could be seen as projecting our own moral views on others, and whether someone's level of intelligence or articulacy in presenting their views actually matters to other people's perception and comfort level when listening. However, the issue that no one was arguing or debating against, was the fact that we've been having problems with Chibi on a regular basis.
This was the 8th time Chibi has been banned - at least since we've been keeping track (there's a thread in the staff forum that is similar and predates this public ban-list thread). And five of those bans happened in the last 3 months (Admins do have a rarely-used method of banning that doesn't show up in this thread). He's been a long-time regular here and has deservedly gotten way more leniency than some random new user, who would've probably been perm-banned on the spot, in any of those instances. But at some point, this leniency has to end, it can't just go on and on indefinitely. In fact, Chibi has been temp-banned more than any other user in TL history. Apparently that method of punishment wasn't having any effect.
We've had three discussions in our staff forum in as many months, totaling over 200 posts, each with several staff members calling for Chibi to finally be banned once and for all. But each of the previous times, we continued being lenient, and allowed him to return. About a month and a half ago, he went on a drunken posting spree ending with this thread, and was effectively banned for an entire month afterward. At that point he was already on thin ice, and we were at the end of the rope with him. After a long chat with Nazgul, he was given a final last chance, on the agreement he would stop causing problems, and stop talking about anything pedo-related.
Chibi returned from his month-long ban, and after posting at the site for roughly two weeks, problems have once again arisen, and once again we're having another long discussion in the staff forum.
I'm going to quote some of these posts he's made in the last two weeks. I'll admit it isn't very fair to look at these posts completely out of their original context like this. All I've done is quickly scan through his recent posts, grabbing anything that looks remotely pedo-related. The point isn't to prove anything, it's only to see if he has held up his end of the agreement, after being given his last chance.
On February 23 2007 18:55 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: Posted this on LP, wondering if there are any alternative standpoints on this, whether you should treat it as simply a non-issue or is something altogether wrong.
What: Teenagers taking risque photos of themselves are prosecuted for violating child pornography laws. Outcome: A 2-1 majority upholds conviction on grounds the girl produced a photograph featuring the sexual conduct of a child.
On February 24 2007 17:27 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: pm me if you want some of cute girls
On February 26 2007 17:01 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: i dont like porn very much . white girls are annoying and fake as fuck
On March 02 2007 22:11 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: you can also get convicted of producing and distrubuting child pornography if you video or photo yourself/girlfriend under age of 18 (even if you are under 18 yourself). see my thread that was closed
On March 02 2007 22:19 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: in england it is illegal for anyone under 16 to have sexual intimacy in any way with anyone else, underage or not. if the parents want to end their child's relationship with another child they can prosecute the 'offender' with the law.
bullshit laws like this are commonplace and are growing in number and frequency of use. in 10, 20, 40 years how do you see things to be different? USE YOUR BRAIN. THINK FOR A MOMENT. SHIT IS BAD AND IS GETTING WORSE. IT MATTERS. in not so many years the internet will be regulated. america already admitted to secretly recording internet useage. people are having their phones tapped. things like this are happening more frequently than you can imagine.
On March 03 2007 02:07 Chibi[OWNS] wrote:
On March 04 2007 06:15 Chibi[OWNS] wrote:
On March 05 2007 09:23 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: You might say it's a biological thing, but biology is not limited to base genetics but instead a lifetime of nurtured psychological (read: brain) development. It is entirely possible for a person to find shoes attractive, if he is shown a picture of a shoe before a picture of a naked woman everyday. It is equally possible for a person to block out an otherwise powerful sexual attraction by simple force of will. he needn't even know the attraction exists for it to be repressed, so a homophobic gay person is not necessarily someone living in misery.
On March 05 2007 09:46 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: I think it's important to consider for what reasons someone might be attracted to the same sex: Most pedophiles claim to have realised their orientation from a young age, but there are many 'reasons' that can still be used to explain against it being genetic. For example, do they like to be dominant? Are they immature and relate better to immaturity? Did they 'miss out' on an important part of their childhood that they are trying to relive?
So, similarly, what reasons can be used to explain homosexuality as a personal psychological attraction rather than genetic? What particular attributes attract a man to another man? For example, do they like the idea of their partner being strong instead of a weak woman (lame example)? And, perhaps, we might find THESE preferences are hereditary. (actually that last line is probably bullshit but I have no idea)
It seems that left-handedness occurs 3 times more likely in pedophiles and in gays. These rates "are comparable to the rates observed in pervasive developmental disorders, such as autism, suggesting a neurological component to the development of pedophilia [and homosexuality]" Ie genetic (either inherited genes affecting development of the brain, or an abnormal condition of the mother's womb due to her genes).
On March 05 2007 10:46 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: Man I just totally raped the thread. And yes I'm a raging pedo, give me some more attention why don't you, that's all I'm here for after all.
In 1989 Briere and Runtz conducted a study on 193 male undergraduate students concerning pedophilia. Of the sample, 21% acknowledged sexual attraction to some small children
A study by Hall et al. of Kent State University found that, of their sample of 80 adult male volunteers, 26.25 % exhibited sexual arousal to heterosexual pedophilic stimuli that equaled or exceeded their arousal to the adult stimuli.
I nicked the alias Chibi when I saw it on an FF mailing list back when I was like 14. Don't think I knew what it meant or anything. And most hentai chicks don't look nine, I dunno what the hell you're watching unless it's from deadfrog in which case I do lol.
On March 05 2007 10:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: chibi is a pedophile
he'd never molest anyone though. but he's pedo.
i would so molest yooooooooouuuuuuuu
On March 05 2007 11:08 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: you need fucks like me or you'll just wallow in your own frightened closedminded uninformed arrogant unthinking retardedness and will suck as a teacher because you won't be able to answer simple questions like 'is homosexuality hereditary?'
On March 05 2007 23:34 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: i dont DO anything though, i just see some fact that relates and apply it. and i dont honestly see how anyone can possibly be offended by facts. my presentation is totally nonprovokative. it came up in that thread coz it offered another and very good way to relate to the question, and then i stumbled across some more research. i go and answer a question using references to other sexual behavior and factual evidence and suddenly ppl are like HOLY SHIT HE SAID THE P WORD THATS DISGUSTING. wtf is wrong with you people. its not like ive ever even SAID something like 'i want to fuck 8 year olds' let alone implied it. what i have said is that very young people can be psychologically and physically mature and i have no qualms about finding them attractive. the only poorly-presented post was when i made a thread asking if people found certain pictures attractive, after the 2 other 'do you find this woman hot?' threads, and THAT'S not even 'bad' because child models are widespread and far from disgusting, i stuck it in spoilers and added a warning. the only reason people like beyonder and j0e make such a fuss, and give the impression that the entire forum is making a fuss, is because theyre IDIOTS
Again, these aren't meant prove anything other to affirm that he likes to talk about his attraction young girls. However - that's exactly what he was not supposed to be talking about, given his agreement and last chance. Some users here, and some staff included, are understandably quite disgusted to see someone who's admitted to being a pedophile, openly talk about this kind of stuff publicly. Several users voiced their disgust in multiple threads, and once again Chibi has created a problem that we have to deal with.
To be clear, Chibi isn't being banned for anything quoted above - he's being banned because he keeps causing trouble over and over again. This has become a consistently recurring issue, we've temp-banned him time and again and it hasn't helped, he was given a last chance under strict guidelines, and he blew it. Chibi is responsible for the reputation he has created for himself here, which has become disruptive to the community, and the monthly discussions about him in the staff forum have become disruptive there too. We've come to the point where enough is enough.
He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
It's understandable that such a decision be reached, as he was constantly creating trouble and ignored the terms of his last chance. With that said, it's still sad that he got banned. He was a generally well-spoken, intelligent contributer, when there was a real topic to discuss. If only he'd not brought up his orientation so much. Defending yourself is one thing, but he really did kind of flaunt it.
On March 21 2007 00:12 ShinSa.NokCha wrote: whos chibi?
I LIKED CHIBI T-T
s2 chibi OWNS
remember chibi~
edit: while I don't completely agree with Baal, I do think that it is true that TL.net is a more sterilized community now as more and more of the personality leaves and more and more "professionalization" comes in. For good or ill, I don't know. But it really doesn't feel like a "team liquid" forum at all now.
On March 21 2007 00:23 Manifesto7 wrote: LR you just have to go to LP.net and see where they went. It wasnt that TL forced them out, it is that they left and were replaced by the masses.
yeah that is true, LP does have a few of those bizarre people.
Poker is so evil -_-; I'm probably going to become an addict at some point in college. YellOw T-T
People posting their support for the death penalty are highly distubing me also. Can they be banned too ? Maybe i should start an official demand thread. blah
I would like to say that its highly probable chibi is not HALF as wicked as the TL crowd may think, but really obsessed in defending his point. Of course sometimes it was limit. I guess he was trying to express this in the 'banning demand' thread.
I think also that, despite his obsession, he was obviously more clever than the vast majority of people on this board, and had some funny posts. Anyway, i guess he went too far, but at least try to not make him be what he is (probably) not.
Mani, was there such public reaction that you had to really explain this? I thought the majority of people accepted it, and there were just a handful (1 or 2 including baal) who disagreed strongly with it. Perhaps the handful of people just kept pressing the issue so much that it seemed like there was more people so that you needed to justify it?
You didn't really need to justify the ban. It was understood and accepted by most. Grudgingly by some. Those that didn't accept it don't seem to get it perhaps never will.
On March 21 2007 00:35 MYM.Testie wrote: Mani, was there such public reaction that you had to really explain this? I thought the majority of people accepted it, and there were just a handful (1 or 2 including baal) who disagreed strongly with it. Perhaps the handful of people just kept pressing the issue so much that it seemed like there was more people so that you needed to justify it?
You didn't really need to justify the ban. It was understood and accepted by most. Grudgingly by some. Those that didn't accept it don't seem to get it perhaps never will.
ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something. let the guy talk about child porn.. w/e it doesnt bother me. hes not posting pics of naked kids or anything. doesnt actualy invade anyones morals or anything... the kids posted here forever and backed you guys up since the begining ..
you know.. i look at this forum today and i cant help but think damn.. This place has gone down hill...
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
yo but there are alot worse people then chibi out there causing trouble on forums man.. i honestly dont like chibi.. Kids thinks hes fucking right about everything and 99% of the time looks like a fucking retard but jesus christ.. hes not that bad a poster.. i meen have you guys seen some of the other fucking freaks that post at other forums..
in their conversations with chibi, i'm sure they made it clear that he was causing trouble and he should change some of his posting habits, a request totally within the boundaries of any forum. if he could not change his habits, then obviously banning him was reasonable.
that said, he was still an amusing personality at times and will be missed by as many, if not more, people as those that are glad to see him gone.
Coagulation On a good note, he would make great posts defending his standpoint and bring up real topics for debate. Whether you liked it or not there wasn't really anything wrong with that. Sometimes he'd bring up points that were actually valid and were ok.
On a bad note, he would do the exact opposite. Resorting to some extremely stupid and childish (not a pun) argumentative behavior. Inflammatory comments that touch a subject most people have very strong feelings against his views. He would also make comments that are there to invite inflammatory comments directed at him by saying something most people would find revolting. Especially due to how it was said and the tone / implication of it.
Given the amount of times he was banned (and the admins let many comments slide to my surprise) he dropped a lot of remarks that were a little too inflammatory.
Saying it is an internet forum and who cares is a way to make it seem as if it does not somehow relate to reality. It's still a public place. It's a totalitarian public place where we are all welcome guests. It's also a public place where everyone sees what you are talking about. It's not a democracy where we the people decide what goes on. And even if it was, by majority rule he'd still probably be gone.
If this were a restaurant where you are also a welcome guest (valued customer) if you said something to the effect of, "I'd totally stick that hot 11 year old girl sitting at that table" in a manner for everyone to hear... you wouldn't be treated with leniency i'm sure.
The admins made a fine decision which was backed with good reason.
On March 21 2007 00:58 mdb wrote: I think that in two months despite(or becouse) of all the efforts of the admins here, this forum will be gg.netish
"omg they banz an apparently well-known user with hi post count! teamliquid.net? moar like teamliquid.NAZI!!!1 as a forum forecastur, i estimate dis board will crumble in 6-8 weeks"
A lot of people complaining seem to be forgetting how Chibi just got drunk and started posting a ton of incoherent shit on TL about every two weeks. That added to the fact that he only ever seemed to be able to talk about something as controversial as pedophilia made him an utterly worthless poster in my eyes.
i understand what your saying and its true but.. i keep thinking the old saying "dont bite the hand that feeds"
people like chibi are what makes tl.net a colorful place that it is.. if we get rid of these characters... then its no longer what makes tl.net special..
I think Chibi absorbed Stimey's annoyingly didactic posting style after Stimey was banned.
Maybe I'm some incredibly poor judge of humor, but I never really found chibi that funny at all. It always seemed like if you didn't write some huge dissertation on why some various link he provided was wrong, you were just "closed-minded". It was actually pretty alarming to see the number of people jump to his defense and tell everyone how much of a "harmless pedophile" Chibi actually was, based on some vague impression they got off of him from the internet.
I have beef with that Coagulation. Because it's a growing trend where people have bandwagoned. Just using this word I have already bandwagoned by using the bandwagon word. But in actuality i'm not because i'm discussing the other point that people haven't brought up yet.
"What makes tl.net special". Go describe to me what made tl.net special.
We have more awesome photoshoppers than before. Those add a lot of colour. More awesome threads than before. Of course there's repeat bad stale threads. But some people have the witty talent to save even those. More posters than before. More news, more updates, more live reports, more streams, more everything!
I think too many people are having that nostalgic feeling of things being better before than they are now. But if you went back in time, you'd realize they really weren't and it's just the nostalgic feeling that makes it seem like they were. Perhaps it is less personal, but it's still personal enough to know the people.
I recently had this when going back to an old RPG on Starcraft. "Elements" was the first RPG I played on BW. I remembered it as like the most awesome thing and looked for it. I went back to it and compared to other RPG's people made these days, it was complete shit. This comparison isn't to say tl.net is shittier then than it is now. But, it's just there to say don't trust nostalgia. It skews perception.
I live in the United States... and pedos are taken very seriously. You can't get a job, or even an apartment at most places if you have a pedo background. Pretty much, even if you are 18 and you have sex with your 15 year old girlfriend and her parents press charges, you're still considered a pedo. That just shows how stiff the laws against pedos are here. In prison, pedos are also the most likely to be killed by inmates because that's how disgusting that "crime" is thought to be.
What I'm trying to say is that don't think all USA is sick perverts who joke about sex and little kids. And I agree... Chibi was a worthless poster. Sure there are worse posters on other forums... but it is an irrelevant point. That's like saying a person shouldn't go to jail because someone else killed more people. He was causing too much trouble and the admins gave him a lot of chances. You can argue that the admins were restricting him too much, but that is his problem. If you don't like the restrictions put on you here, leave. Simple. Read the TL.net commandments. "Freedom of speech" does not exist here.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
I don't believe there is any difference betwen usa and europe from this point of view. And he is not a pedo, fucking or talking about 14-15-16 year girls does not make him a pedo. Talking and fucking <10years old makes him a pedo, and i've never seen him talk about it. I believe a vast amount of people here do not know what pedophilia really is.
On March 21 2007 01:22 BroOd wrote: It was actually pretty alarming to see the number of people jump to his defense and tell everyone how much of a "harmless pedophile" Chibi actually was, based on some vague impression they got off of him from the internet.
It was actually pretty alarming to see the number of people jump to his back and tell everyone how much of a "wicked pedophile" Chibi actually was, based on some vague impression they got off of him from the internet.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
I don't believe there is any difference betwen usa and europe from this point of view. And he is not a pedo, fucking or talking about 14-15-16 year girls does not make him a pedo. Talking and fucking <10years old makes him a pedo, and i've never seen him talk about it. I believe a vast amount of people here do not know what pedophily really is.
What is the difference between 10 year olds and 16 year olds? 6 years and puberty? That is your own opinion in a vastly grey line of this subject matter. I don't know about wherever you live, but the people I am around generally agree that if you're almost twice their age before they're 18, that is pedo. Anyways, whatever. This will just turn into a pointless arguement. I'll let you keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. My point is, just because you believe something doesn't mean everyone else does.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
I don't believe there is any difference betwen usa and europe from this point of view. And he is not a pedo, fucking or talking about 14-15-16 year girls does not make him a pedo. Talking and fucking <10years old makes him a pedo, and i've never seen him talk about it. I believe a vast amount of people here do not know what pedophily really is.
You might want to hit up a dictionary before you say stuff like this. Unless, that is, you're claiming people stop being children at 13, and 14, 15 and 16 year olds are adults.
This shouldn't be a topic about pedophilia, though.
On March 21 2007 01:22 BroOd wrote: It was actually pretty alarming to see the number of people jump to his defense and tell everyone how much of a "harmless pedophile" Chibi actually was, based on some vague impression they got off of him from the internet.
It was actually pretty alarming to see the number of people jump to his back and tell everyone how much of a "wicked pedophile" Chibi actually was, based on some vague impression they got off of him from the internet.
If that is the case, you just made a point that he should be banned because of how many people found him to be such a "wicked pedophile"
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
I don't believe there is any difference betwen usa and europe from this point of view. And he is not a pedo, fucking or talking about 14-15-16 year girls does not make him a pedo. Talking and fucking <10years old makes him a pedo, and i've never seen him talk about it. I believe a vast amount of people here do not know what pedophilia really is.
Dude.. as far as I'm concerned, a grown man 'fucking or talking about 14-15-16 year old girls' does make that man a pedo. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I only vaguely remembered him admitting to such a thing.. whether he was being serious who knows?
On March 21 2007 01:25 MYM.Testie wrote: I have beef with that Coagulation. Because it's a growing trend where people have bandwagoned. Just using this word I have already bandwagoned by using the bandwagon word. But in actuality i'm not because i'm discussing the other point that people haven't brought up yet.
"What makes tl.net special". Go describe to me what made tl.net special.
We have more awesome photoshoppers than before. Those add a lot of colour. More awesome threads than before. Of course there's repeat bad stale threads. But some people have the witty talent to save even those. More posters than before. More news, more updates, more live reports, more streams, more everything!
I think too many people are having that nostalgic feeling of things being better before than they are now. But if you went back in time, you'd realize they really weren't and it's just the nostalgic feeling that makes it seem like they were. Perhaps it is less personal, but it's still personal enough to know the people.
I recently had this when going back to an old RPG on Starcraft. "Elements" was the first RPG I played on BW. I remembered it as like the most awesome thing and looked for it. I went back to it and compared to other RPG's people made these days, it was complete shit.
im not trying to defend chibi.. honestly i could give a fuck less about him. im just a little worried that the admins may be shooting themselves in the foot a little too much for the good of the community.. there are alot more people that have been banned besides chibi that i miss. i know that tl.net has alot of great posters (i like to consider myself on the list of photoshoppers that contribute to tl) and i know that the strict admin regulation keeps this place an A+ community. but i cant help but notice that the posting quality has declined ever so slightly lately
On March 21 2007 01:17 Coagulation wrote: i understand what your saying and its true but.. i keep thinking the old saying "dont bite the hand that feeds"
people like chibi are what makes tl.net a colorful place that it is.. if we get rid of these characters... then its no longer what makes tl.net special..
uh no. [and this is just in general sure, its nice to have witty, funny, interesting posters, but what we dont need are people shitting on the forums and calling it humor.
if we ban all the people that actually contribute to the site, then yes, we're losing that special thing, since THOSE people are the ones that actually make tl.net what it is, not some characters that do nothing but stir up trouble.
I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
One of my 'not so close' friends is obsessed with 13 year old Japanese girls...he talks about how sexy they are and how he'd do them all.
It's even endorsed over there, it was some show with some white guy who could speak fluent Japanese, he was interviewing some girl 'Lolita' group called SweetS. It was a valentine's day special, and they were talking about what kinds of guys they go for and such. And the host who was about 28-30 was like "Ooo you should go out with me" and shit.
I think Chibi was into that sort of stuff, to us it's pedo, but to them it's just a fixation with younger girls who are still legal.
I don't think Chibi is pedo in Japan, but here he is.
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
On March 21 2007 01:42 Coagulation wrote: ok so i geuss we can all agree that chibi was an idiot.. But cmon... who didnt feel better about themselvs after reading one of his post's.
You wan't a pile of shit laying in your room to remind yourself of how good you smell?
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
There exists a very nicely summed up explanation for Chibi (by Chibi, in his own defense), and I will post it as soon as some demands are met - hold on...
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
No, I've never tried to fuck anything below the age 20.
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
No, I've never tried to fuck anything below the age 20.
I was talking about the word "hypocritical"... which isn't about trying to fuck anything below the age 20.
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
No, I've never tried to fuck anything below the age 20.
I was talking about the word "hypocritical"... which isn't about trying to fuck anything below the age 20.
THESE DTP NIGGAS COME READY FOR WAR SO DON'T START THE GAME IF YOU WON'T SETTLE THE SCORE
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
Ya know, sometimes when you get a new job, you're one of many people who are hired in bulk; you are replacing a bunch of people who've left. And when you're adjusting to your new job, you notice who the "oldschoolers" are, and they seem somewhat established; clique-ish. And whenever one of the remaining "oldschoolers" quits or gets fired for stealing, you have to hear all the other oldschooler-pals bitching about how "all the good people are leaving".
Granted, it's too bad Chibi ultimately tooled TL.net into being his pedo/drunken-blog for so long. He used to be hilarious
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
No, I've never tried to fuck anything below the age 20.
I was talking about the word "hypocritical"... which isn't about trying to fuck anything below the age 20.
THESE DTP NIGGAS COME READY FOR WAR SO DON'T START THE GAME IF YOU WON'T SETTLE THE SCORE
Since I can't determine if that was a joke or something serious, I'll take it for a joke and leave it at that. Have a good night.
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
No, I've never tried to fuck anything below the age 20.
I was talking about the word "hypocritical"... which isn't about trying to fuck anything below the age 20.
THESE DTP NIGGAS COME READY FOR WAR SO DON'T START THE GAME IF YOU WON'T SETTLE THE SCORE
Since I can't determine if that was a joke or something serious, I'll take it for a joke and leave it at that. Have a good night.
I think it's pretty obvious he was being serious with you there.
On March 21 2007 01:39 MYM.Testie wrote: I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
Anyway i'm ramblin' now so that's it for me.
Isn't ironic that this is coming from you?
Oh wait the word is hypocritical.
Yes, that is the word. You know it quite well don't you.
No, I've never tried to fuck anything below the age 20.
I was talking about the word "hypocritical"... which isn't about trying to fuck anything below the age 20.
THESE DTP NIGGAS COME READY FOR WAR SO DON'T START THE GAME IF YOU WON'T SETTLE THE SCORE
Since I can't determine if that was a joke or something serious, I'll take it for a joke and leave it at that. Have a good night.
I think it's pretty obvious he was being serious with you there.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
I don't believe there is any difference betwen usa and europe from this point of view. And he is not a pedo, fucking or talking about 14-15-16 year girls does not make him a pedo. Talking and fucking <10years old makes him a pedo, and i've never seen him talk about it. I believe a vast amount of people here do not know what pedophily really is.
You might want to hit up a dictionary before you say stuff like this. Unless, that is, you're claiming people stop being children at 13, and 14, 15 and 16 year olds are adults.
This shouldn't be a topic about pedophilia, though.
I just did: "Pedophilia, paedophilia or pædophilia (see spelling differences) is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent or peripubescent children. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile.
In contrast to the generally accepted medical definition, the term pedophile is also used colloquially to denote significantly older adults who are sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent,[1] as well as those who have sexually abused a child."
This is what wiki says. Just because some people tease others who like younger girls below legal age of consent calling them pedo's that doesn't mean they really are. Pedophilia (as a mental disorder in psychology) is about those guys who like kids that do not have their genital organs gotten to the limit of puberty. At 14-15-16 years, girls are usually mature enough to have sexual intercourse. My only point is that there is a big difference betwen teasing someone calling him a pedo and being a pedo. And this is the only thing that bothered me, because many said he's a pedo, but i only remember some thread were he said he'd hit a 13year, is it enough for saying he's a pedo?
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
wtf? i make jokes about anything i think i can get away with. I don't think it's sick at all. Am i wrong? Its all about opiniions i guess, what you can deal with
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
What kind of stuck up society do you live in? Me and my friends constantly joke about Nazis, Paedophilia, Incest, racism and all the likes, as long as everyone knows its a fucking joke, who cares?
While Ilvy decides to imply US forums in general are pedophilia friendly, Stimey and Chibi, aka unknown guest and rednob, make a European-USA alliance to talk about cats in heat, hentai and little girls, this time of course in private and only amongst themselves.
It is not a morality issue, or not even a troll issue but rather, how to deal with human stupidity.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
What kind of stuck up society do you live in? Me and my friends constantly joke about Nazis, Paedophilia, Incest, racism and all the likes, as long as everyone knows its a fucking joke, who cares?
there are a group of extreme prudes on this site, its best not to argue with them because they will just dismiss you as morally bankrupt and therefore worthless
On March 21 2007 00:35 MYM.Testie wrote: Mani, was there such public reaction that you had to really explain this? I thought the majority of people accepted it, and there were just a handful (1 or 2 including baal) who disagreed strongly with it. Perhaps the handful of people just kept pressing the issue so much that it seemed like there was more people so that you needed to justify it?
You didn't really need to justify the ban. It was understood and accepted by most. Grudgingly by some. Those that didn't accept it don't seem to get it perhaps never will.
It was a decision by the staff that we make an explanation for his ban. There were requests from multiple sources for an explanation of what they felt was a very questionable ban, which clearly is the case as shown in this thread. For all the things discussed in this thread, from his status as a forum regular and character to his pedophile views and the trouble he caused when he went off, it was clear that something needed to be said.
Since something needed to be said, we thought it'd be best if we all agreed on one explanation so that at least everything would be consistent amongst the staff (or at least those who agreed to ban him). Those of us who decided that Chibi should be banned (including myself) do not regret our decision and are not afraid of criticism from the members. This decision was a difficult one that took a lot of discussion amongst the staff and we're confident that we considered everything before making it. Feel free to express your own views, but I assure you that it won't be anything that hasn't already been said and considered before.
btw, if you ban for paedophilia, why the fuck dont you ban rekrul for being a racist prick? Its all in good fun sure, but chibi posted about gay & pedos in a fucking thread about sexual relations, he's even on topic, not making stupid "look at me i've got nothing better to say so i'll spam niggas a few times and pretend to be funny" kind of way.
If you want this place clean, start by setting the example.
On March 21 2007 03:00 Physician wrote: While Ilvy decides to imply US forums in general are pedophilia friendly, Stimey and Chibi, aka unknown guest and rednob, make a European-USA alliance to talk about cats in heat, hentai and little girls, this time of course in private and only amongst themselves.
It is not a morality issue, or not even a troll issue but rather, how to deal with human stupidity.
Did not say that USA is pedofriendly, i said they might see that different way since it was almost only US user defending him or do they just suck up and want to sound cool?
On March 21 2007 03:00 Physician wrote: While Ilvy decides to imply US forums in general are pedophilia friendly, Stimey and Chibi, aka unknown guest and rednob, make a European-USA alliance to talk about cats in heat, hentai and little girls, this time of course in private and only amongst themselves.
It is not a morality issue, or not even a troll issue but rather, how to deal with human stupidity.
Did not say that USA is pedofriendly, i said they might see that different way since it was almost only US user defending him or do they just suck up and want to sound cool?
why would you even mention nationalities when the thread clearly has nothing to do with that?
On March 21 2007 03:00 Physician wrote: While Ilvy decides to imply US forums in general are pedophilia friendly, Stimey and Chibi, aka unknown guest and rednob, make a European-USA alliance to talk about cats in heat, hentai and little girls, this time of course in private and only amongst themselves.
It is not a morality issue, or not even a troll issue but rather, how to deal with human stupidity.
Did not say that USA is pedofriendly, i said they might see that different way since it was almost only US user defending him or do they just suck up and want to sound cool?
Why would it be cool to be pedo? or even "cool" to defend him? I defend him cause I found him smart and funny and he contributed to intelligent discussions.
On March 21 2007 03:26 Hasse wrote: btw, if you ban for paedophilia, why the fuck dont you ban rekrul for being a racist prick? Its all in good fun sure, but chibi posted about gay & pedos in a fucking thread about sexual relations, he's even on topic, not making stupid "look at me i've got nothing better to say so i'll spam niggas a few times and pretend to be funny" kind of way.
If you want this place clean, start by setting the example.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
What kind of stuck up society do you live in? Me and my friends constantly joke about Nazis, Paedophilia, Incest, racism and all the likes, as long as everyone knows its a fucking joke, who cares?
wonders where you grow up, if you have nothing else to talk about you should find a book and read so you get something real to talk about.
I am sry that i do not find any joke in if one talks about how he took a 12 - 13 year old girl, if it would have been my kid he would have had last time sex in his life
So paedophilia isnt real now? or racism, nazis and incest? they are made up and not interresting to talk about? so why did chibi get banned for talking about fiction then?
And for the record, I said we joke around about those things, that doesnt mean its the only thing we talk about.
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
What kind of stuck up society do you live in? Me and my friends constantly joke about Nazis, Paedophilia, Incest, racism and all the likes, as long as everyone knows its a fucking joke, who cares?
wonders where you grow up, if you have nothing else to talk about you should find a book and read so you get something real to talk about.
I am sry that i do not find any joke in if one talks about how he took a 12 - 13 year old girl, if it would have been my kid he would have had last time sex in his life
On March 21 2007 01:17 Coagulation wrote: i understand what your saying and its true but.. i keep thinking the old saying "dont bite the hand that feeds"
people like chibi are what makes tl.net a colorful place that it is.. if we get rid of these characters... then its no longer what makes tl.net special..
We don't need those people. If I had to decide between characters like mitsy and Chibi or Sonuvbob and ilovecats (and others like them, too many to name), that wouldn't be a tough call.
If we just tried more often to be freindly with one another and try to understand the other persons point of view, this could be a happier place. Good posters don't have to be controversial personalities.
good point about japan... what if chibi were japanese talking about how freaking how 13yos were and how much he wasnt to sex em up... that would be perfectly fine, it would be legal and fine.
The world doesnt have to obey your perception of morality, in some countries Mora (teroru) would be an outlaw man fucker, do we ban him? fucking no why? because we have to keep an open mind to different values than ours.
Chibi wasnt harming anybody nor insulting anybody, it was just a bunch of closed minded retards who GOT offended by posts made by chibi not directed to them in any way.
PS: testie stop being an hypocrite, you were fucking a girl much younger than yourself
I'm just basically gonna repeat the post I made earlier because people still don't get it:
Regardless of Chibi's questionable morality (personally I hardly give a shit about his demented beliefs), he was simply a terrible poster. Only able to talk about a SINGLE SUBJECT for thousands of posts, derailing threads with it and continuously getting drunk and posting even more abhorrent shit all over TL after having been warned numerous times. This just isn't someone you'd want on any forum.
On March 21 2007 04:31 vGl-CoW wrote: I'm just basically gonna repeat the post I made earlier because people still don't get it:
Regardless of Chibi's questionable morality (personally I hardly give a shit about his demented beliefs), he was simply a terrible poster. Only able to talk about a SINGLE SUBJECT for thousands of posts, derailing threads with it and continuously getting drunk and posting even more abhorrent shit all over TL after having been warned numerous times. This just isn't someone you'd want on any forum.
bullshit he didnt only talk about one single subject, he has 3 times more posts than you for fucks sake do you seriously think he made 10k posts of pedophilia?
He wasnt a terrible poster, he was a good and funny poster
On March 21 2007 04:31 vGl-CoW wrote: I'm just basically gonna repeat the post I made earlier because people still don't get it:
Regardless of Chibi's questionable morality (personally I hardly give a shit about his demented beliefs), he was simply a terrible poster. Only able to talk about a SINGLE SUBJECT for thousands of posts, derailing threads with it and continuously getting drunk and posting even more abhorrent shit all over TL after having been warned numerous times. This just isn't someone you'd want on any forum.
Seeing as you dont give a fuck about their beliefs, but its very offensive to post only on one subject, when will you ban everyone talking about nothing but brood war?
(I'm aware of that this is very far fetched, but you said you dont care about what the topic was about)
On March 21 2007 04:31 vGl-CoW wrote: I'm just basically gonna repeat the post I made earlier because people still don't get it:
Regardless of Chibi's questionable morality (personally I hardly give a shit about his demented beliefs), he was simply a terrible poster. Only able to talk about a SINGLE SUBJECT for thousands of posts, derailing threads with it and continuously getting drunk and posting even more abhorrent shit all over TL after having been warned numerous times. This just isn't someone you'd want on any forum.
bullshit he didnt only talk about one single subject, he has 3 times more posts than you for fucks sake do you seriously think he made 10k posts of pedophilia?
He wasnt a terrible poster, he was a good and funny poster
Actually more like 5k pedophilia posts and 5k "hii TL I WNAt to FUK YR SISTRR LOOOOL"
Seriously, I've been around here for a long ass time too and I can't remember anything worthwile he's ever posted. The closest thing I saw resembling humour was him masturbating to his own unfunny trolling posts on some other gay forum or MUD or whatever.
On March 21 2007 04:24 baal wrote: good point about japan... what if chibi were japanese talking about how freaking how 13yos were and how much he wasnt to sex em up... that would be perfectly fine, it would be legal and fine.
The world doesnt have to obey your perception of morality, in some countries Mora (teroru) would be an outlaw man fucker, do we ban him? fucking no why? because we have to keep an open mind to different values than ours.
Chibi wasnt harming anybody nor insulting anybody, it was just a bunch of closed minded retards who GOT offended by posts made by chibi not directed to them in any way.
PS: testie stop being an hypocrite, you were fucking a girl much younger than yourself
Baal, probably in the future you'll have a precious baby, and you'll think different about tolerance... Anyway I can't understand how you can compare homosexuallity with pedophilia ?
I admit you have a point there baal, but it's a matter of fact he managed to bring the pedo-thing up in about 90% of threads he posted in during the last 3 months of his activity.
I acknowledge the fact he contributed to intelligent discussions here and there, but most often these discussions would end in the usual pro-pedo/con-pedo flamefest. And that's not solely the fault of the community, that is because Chibi defended his pedophilia more thoroughly than mitsy at times.
On March 21 2007 04:24 baal wrote: good point about japan... what if chibi were japanese talking about how freaking how 13yos were and how much he wasnt to sex em up... that would be perfectly fine, it would be legal and fine.
The world doesnt have to obey your perception of morality, in some countries Mora (teroru) would be an outlaw man fucker, do we ban him? fucking no why? because we have to keep an open mind to different values than ours.
Chibi wasnt harming anybody nor insulting anybody, it was just a bunch of closed minded retards who GOT offended by posts made by chibi not directed to them in any way.
PS: testie stop being an hypocrite, you were fucking a girl much younger than yourself
If you love him so much go to the links Entro posted and feel free to write with him about that "harmless" useless shit all day long.
As I was saying about Japan...it's that whole mentality...it is 'wrong' to us, but it isn't wrong there.
Sure he isn't actually Japanese, but what about all of the Japanese men who idolise and have sex with 13+ girls?
Do we need to set a 'Hypothetical comment about having sex with girls under 16' warning on TL.net? It's not as if it happens as much as stupid posts. The level of pedophile posts compared to the amount of stupid shit that gets posted by say; incontrol, is nothing. Chibi isn't serious most of the time, he adds something to the forums yes. People seem to get very uptight about it. isn't the BEST thing Chibi could've done, but he didn't pedo up every post he made.
Ok, I post stupid shit too now.
I also agree with the fact that if you ban for one reason you should ban for any other reason too.
I think there should be a level of tolerance with regards to some things, pedophilia included. In no way do I condone pedophilia, but I think Chibi made more valuable/funny/quality posts compared to a select few pedo or alluding to pedo posts.
On March 21 2007 04:43 Cpt Obvious wrote: I admit you have a point there baal, but it's a matter of fact he managed to bring the pedo-thing up in about 90% of threads he posted in during the last 3 months of his activity.
I acknowledge the fact he contributed to intelligent discussions here and there, but most often these discussions would end in the usual pro-pedo/con-pedo flamefest. And that's not solely the fault of the community, that is because Chibi defended his pedophilia more thoroughly than mitsy at times.
This might be true, but the community "forced" him to reply more than once aswell. I cant place them anywhere so I dont have any proof, but I do remember alot of "LOL, Where's chibi when you need him!?" "Chibi INC" etc etc.
Talking german isn't wrong in Germany, either. But I'm talking english in here. Why? Because it's a freaking American forum led by people who do not speak german (well, most of them).
What we consider "pedophilia" might be "ok" in Japan, but this site is american/international. We have no place for that kind of shit here. Like Ilvy said, feel free to post it elsewhere if you have to. Why bother us? It's still a gaming website, not an open forum where you go and post drunken all the time.
edit: Hasse:
Well, whose fault is that? Entirely his, afaik he has been bringing up shit like this for years, in almost any thread he could fit it in, be it on topic or not, it didn't really matter to him. Read cow's post if you don't believe me.
edit2: mdb:
Constructive criticism isn't forbidden, but stop insulting me. Unlike Chibi, I don't act like my opinion is the one and only viable way to look at things. I won't argue with you any further, since you have some sort of personal bias against me that makes discussing wasted effort.
On March 21 2007 04:43 Cpt Obvious wrote: I admit you have a point there baal, but it's a matter of fact he managed to bring the pedo-thing up in about 90% of threads he posted in during the last 3 months of his activity.
I acknowledge the fact he contributed to intelligent discussions here and there, but most often these discussions would end in the usual pro-pedo/con-pedo flamefest. And that's not solely the fault of the community, that is because Chibi defended his pedophilia more thoroughly than mitsy at times.
Dude please shut up for once! A month ago you were asking who mitsy is ,now you speak as you know everything.
Ok so you think culture is on top of human rights ?, what about female genital mutilation in some countries, is that OK, should we tolerate it ?.
I don't think you have to put in one side the funny/valuable posts and in the other side the punishable ones. Mensrea posted some comandments and that is the law here, no matter how funny the terrorists can be right ?
Talking german isn't wrong in Germany, either. But I'm talking english in here. Why? Because it's a freaking American forum led by people who do not speak german (well, most of them).
What we consider "pedophilia" might be "ok" in Japan, but this site is american/international. We have no place for that kind of shit here. Like Ilvy said, feel free to post it elsewhere if you have to. Why bother us? It's still a gaming website, not an open forum where you go and post drunken all the time.
edit: Hasse:
Well, whose fault is that? Entirely his, afaik he has been bringing up shit like this for years, in almost any thread he could fit it in, be it on topic or not, it didn't really matter to him. Read cow's post if you don't believe me.
edit2: mdb:
Constructive criticism isn't forbidden, but stop insulting me. Unlike Chibi, I don't act like my opinion is the one and only viable way to look at things. I won't argue with you any further, since you have some sort of personal bias against me that makes discussing wasted effort.
Seeing as you've been here less than 6 months, saying stuff like "he's been bringing up shit like this for years".
And even though he has, the mob encouraging him to do so doesnt really make him stop does it? People expected him to post stuff like it, so he posted and people laughed. Then some people got tired of it and decided to ban him.
On March 21 2007 04:26 Yizuo wrote: So, is it gonna be released which Mod was for and which against the ban?
well i guess the most PRO ban were Beyonder, Cyric and that korean dude lol.
Neutral probably Mani leaning towards pro ban, Nazgul, and Rekrul leaning thowards against ban.
against: Eri
I am sure Manifesto enjoyed that ppl made stupid jokes about his little babygirl in that thread ^^. The thing is if you go to far in some posts, you force others to do same, unfortunatly a lot ppl reacht like sheeps and follow every shit. So mostly things end up way to far over the line and do not even get that the "jokearea" is already long time over. To avoid this, don´t post about this things ^^
I am 100% sure that all of you guys who condemn Chibi ,have made pedo jokes or laughed at pedo jokes.And am 100% that all of you have mastrubated on 13-14 year old girls. Also I am 100% sure that Chibi is not a pedophile.I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls.
On March 21 2007 05:00 JudasT wrote: Ok so you think culture is on top of human rights ?, what about female genital mutilation in some countries, is that OK, should we tolerate it ?.
I don't think you have to put in one side the funny/valuable posts and in the other side the punishable ones. Mensrea posted some comandments and that is the law here, no matter how funny the terrorists can be right ?
2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
-Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
On March 21 2007 01:58 Rekrul wrote: THESE DTP NIGGAS COME READY FOR WAR SO DON'T START THE GAME IF YOU WON'T SETTLE THE SCORE
On March 21 2007 05:04 mdb wrote: I am 100% sure that all of you guys who condemn Chibi ,have made pedo jokes or laughed at pedo jokes.And am 100% that all of you have mastrubated on 13-14 year old girls. Also I am 100% sure that Chibi is not a pedophile.I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls.
One of my 'not so close' friends is obsessed with 13 year old Japanese girls...he talks about how sexy they are and how he'd do them all.
It's even endorsed over there, it was some show with some white guy who could speak fluent Japanese, he was interviewing some girl 'Lolita' group called SweetS. It was a valentine's day special, and they were talking about what kinds of guys they go for and such. And the host who was about 28-30 was like "Ooo you should go out with me" and shit.
I think Chibi was into that sort of stuff, to us it's pedo, but to them it's just a fixation with younger girls who are still legal.
I don't think Chibi is pedo in Japan, but here he is.
eh, considering the pics he posted numerous times, he'd be a pedo and most like a "kimo-ota" as well. (lol i cant believe I actually used that term).
Most relationships with "underage" females there (let's say, age 13-16 shall we?) are prostitution. Regular, long term prostitution termed "baishun" or translated, "selling spring(ie youth)".
22(guy)=18(girl) or something like 19(guy)-16(girl) is about the widest you'd expect to see, without going into "pay for play" zone. 13-15's will by in large not go out with anyone 20+ or so.
gogo become a "Papa" to some 15 year old in japan.
On March 21 2007 05:04 mdb wrote: I am 100% sure that all of you guys who condemn Chibi ,have made pedo jokes or laughed at pedo jokes.And am 100% that all of you have mastrubated on 13-14 year old girls. Also I am 100% sure that Chibi is not a pedophile.I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls.
I'm 100% sure you don't know what is a pedophile
if you've never been attracted to a girl under the legal age of consent for your country, you're either:
btw i'm not sure if this counts, but Chibi did post pics of animaged girls who fit right into the lolita category (undeveloped sexual organs, thin limbs and the like) on many occasions and declared his lust for such images. >__>
Talking german isn't wrong in Germany, either. But I'm talking english in here. Why? Because it's a freaking American forum led by people who do not speak german (well, most of them).
this isnt an american forum you fucking retard... this is a dutch forum or international at best.
but ok lets get righteous about whats immoral and illegal.... lets fucking ban everyone who has made a DRUG thread... its illega, immoral and i dont want "my kids" to be arround stupid crackheads.
oh wait... but half of the staff does drugs... and some of them hard drugs, oh shitz we have a congruene problem batman!.
On March 21 2007 04:24 baal wrote: good point about japan... what if chibi were japanese talking about how freaking how 13yos were and how much he wasnt to sex em up... that would be perfectly fine, it would be legal and fine.
The world doesnt have to obey your perception of morality, in some countries Mora (teroru) would be an outlaw man fucker, do we ban him? fucking no why? because we have to keep an open mind to different values than ours.
Chibi wasnt harming anybody nor insulting anybody, it was just a bunch of closed minded retards who GOT offended by posts made by chibi not directed to them in any way.
PS: testie stop being an hypocrite, you were fucking a girl much younger than yourself
Baal, probably in the future you'll have a precious baby, and you'll think different about tolerance... Anyway I can't understand how you can compare homosexuallity with pedophilia ?
why the fuck no? its a sexual preference (deviation), and we are talking about lusting not raping anybody.
On March 21 2007 05:16 thedeadhaji wrote: btw i'm not sure if this counts, but Chibi did post pics of animaged girls who fit right into the lolita category (undeveloped sexual organs, thin limbs and the like) on many occasions and declared his lust for such images. >__>
I don't think his motivation for doing so was to make a "post images of hot underaged girls" thread.
On March 21 2007 05:04 mdb wrote: I am 100% sure that all of you guys who condemn Chibi ,have made pedo jokes or laughed at pedo jokes.And am 100% that all of you have mastrubated on 13-14 year old girls. Also I am 100% sure that Chibi is not a pedophile.I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls.
I'm 100% sure you don't know what is a pedophile
if you've never been attracted to a girl under the legal age of consent for your country, you're either:
1.) gay 2.) blind
What is the point ?, please read my answer again, he said: "I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls" I just wanted to tell him that you don't have to be 100% sure of something that you even don't know what it is, thats all.
On March 21 2007 05:00 JudasT wrote: Ok so you think culture is on top of human rights ?, what about female genital mutilation in some countries, is that OK, should we tolerate it ?.
I don't think you have to put in one side the funny/valuable posts and in the other side the punishable ones. Mensrea posted some comandments and that is the law here, no matter how funny the terrorists can be right ?
-Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Judast I am sure that you pretty good understood what I meant. I know what pedophile is. If one of the symptoms is to have sexual attraction to underaged girl then...I am pedo too.
On March 21 2007 05:04 mdb wrote: I am 100% sure that all of you guys who condemn Chibi ,have made pedo jokes or laughed at pedo jokes.And am 100% that all of you have mastrubated on 13-14 year old girls. Also I am 100% sure that Chibi is not a pedophile.I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls.
I'm 100% sure you don't know what is a pedophile
if you've never been attracted to a girl under the legal age of consent for your country, you're either:
1.) gay 2.) blind
What is the point ?, please read my answer again, he said: "I doubt that he kidnapes and rapes little girls" I just wanted to tell him that you don't have to be 100% sure of something that you even don't know what it is, thats all.
First: If Chibi is punished because he kept mass posting about it after promising he won't do it, I'm ok with it. If it's true he recognized he was going to far, promised to stop and then keep doing it he clearly put himself into the problem.
Second: MOST of you are confusing "pedophile" with "rapist". A pedophile is a person attracted for your girls / boys. A gerontophile (don't sure about this word) is a person attracted for old women / men. There are even "philias" with extremely fat, rich people, ill people, your kidnappers, etc etc. A pedophile is not going to rape your children, as an homosexual is not going to rape you.
Third: If you have seen the table previously posted, here in Spain the age of consent is 13. It means that a 13 yo girl can have sexual relations with anyone if she wants to, because at that age she already is sexualy mature (average age for fist ovulation is 13). Obviously this law was made to protect 18(adult age here) yo to go to jail because his girlfriend was just 5 years younger and not to allow a 40 year old sick to sleep with 13 yo girls, that's why the consent part is added. I understand all the troubles it makes, I understand it is hard to talk about it without misundertandings. How in hell can a 13 year old be mature enough to understand a sexual relation and consent it?! The answer is that she won't. 1 / 1.000.000 13-15 year old girls will consent a sexual relation with a man over 30 yo. Conclusion: The sexual relation age of consent law is just a measure to protect non guilty relationships, not a barrier to allow mad sex if you surpase it.
Every community has its own moral codes enforced by the leaders of the community or the community itself. Whether it be that randomly killing someone or doing a somersault is wrong and immoral doesn't really matter.
What I understand the reasoning behind the ban to be is that he broke the moral code repeatedly (pedophilia being considered wrong, immoral, against the rules, etc) and so was banned. I don't think anyone, upon looking at this, disagrees that he broke the moral code of TL.net, as decided by the moderators.
The question is more so whether or not the moral code is just (ie shared with the individual in question) or not. Is talking about pedophilia and essentially admitting to be a pedophile wrong? If you consider it wrong or unacceptable, you support the actions taken against it/him. If you don't, then you similarly don't support the consequences decided by the higher-ups.
Personally I agree with the administrators decision: I view pedophilia an unacceptable trait, and the constant mentions of situations which imply pedophilia-like desires with no remorse not tolerable.
You may say that there is no freedom in this, in banning someone because of a personal, emotional, sexual desire. But remember that we all have a limit to how much and what type of freedom is acceptable. While you may support 'freedom', that likely means that you support the right to do or say certain things without fear of punishment or retribution, but I'm sure that there are things that are still considered unacceptable in your mind. Murder or robbery would be a likely example of an unacceptable action in an otherwise free society.
I'm for freedom to a point, but Chibi has passed that boundary; justice, handed down by the community leaders, must follow. And so it has.
On March 21 2007 05:28 Telemako wrote: First: If Chibi is punished because he kept mass posting about it after promising he won't do it, I'm ok with it. If it's true he recognized he was going to far, promised to stop and then keep doing it he clearly put himself into the problem.
Sorry mdb, I probably didn't know exacly what the pedophilia term meant, but I do think that nobody should be sexually attracted by a child. I'm of course sexually attracted by adolescents (>15 ?), but not by children.
On March 21 2007 05:38 JudasT wrote: Sorry mdb, I probably didn't know exacly what the pedophilia term meant, but I do think that nobody should be sexually attracted by a child. I'm of course sexually attracted by adolescents (>15 ?), but not by children.
some of the people here don't see a gray area somehow
they think that a girl magically becomes attractive at age 18 and cannot be considered attractive before then
On March 21 2007 05:35 baal wrote: good to know an idiot with 185 posts agrees that Chibi has crossed the line...
seriously people who have no fucking idea whats going on GTFO of the thread.
Must be a hot day in Mexico.
Since you've been here since 2004, some people expect your post count to be 10k+.
It's a shame that people think post count defines what they can and can't say here. <hr> Travis, have you noticed that this topic, the one this thread is about, has brought you back to TL.net? At least in the way of posting a lot, whether it's in this forum or the other one.
Originally, I didn't want to say anything, but look how many times you've responded in this page alone, as well as the other thread.
On March 21 2007 05:38 JudasT wrote: Sorry mdb, I probably didn't know exacly what the pedophilia term meant, but I do think that nobody should be sexually attracted by a child. I'm of course sexually attracted by adolescents (>15 ?), but not by children.
On March 21 2007 05:38 JudasT wrote: Sorry mdb, I probably didn't know exacly what the pedophilia term meant, but I do think that nobody should be sexually attracted by a child. I'm of course sexually attracted by adolescents (>15 ?), but not by children.
no men should be sexually attracted to other men... but hey... it happens.
On March 21 2007 05:35 baal wrote: good to know an idiot with 185 posts agrees that Chibi has crossed the line...
seriously people who have no fucking idea whats going on GTFO of the thread.
Must be a hot day in Mexico.
Since you've been here since 2004, some people expect your post count to be 10k+.
It's a shame that people think post count defines what they can and can't say here. <hr> Travis, have you noticed that this topic, the one this thread is about, has brought you back to TL.net? At least in the way of posting a lot, whether it's in this forum or the other one.
Originally, I didn't want to say anything, but look how many times you've responded in this page alone, as well as the other thread.
Kind of interesting is all.
meh it's more of
1.) I like arguing about stuff. 2.) Im kinda tired but can't sleep, so posting on an internet forum is perfect!
if i were Chibi i would blame my self for getting banned; all hypocrisy, idiocy, personal agendas and other crap aside he knew it was coming to him; he knew theres no way he can win and still pursued the same line of posts; there were no minds at tl.net that he could change so why did he bother explaining himself?; only for the freedom of speech? i doubt it he made a tone of sarcastic or ironic posts, replying to people whom he did not know, or to people who mean nothing to him; he tried to make those people 'understand his views'; why? for fuck sake, why?; why he did not kept his theoretical sexual tendencies to himself?; he hoped for acceptance from tl.net? lol
As far as I know and from what he told me on IRC, he is 21, but he may be 22 by now considering several weeks have passed by now. It's really sad reasonably intelligent people like him waste their talent on arguing about whether pedophilia is morally right or wrong. It's about as pointless as the chicken/egg-problem, especially over the internet.
On March 21 2007 05:00 JudasT wrote: Ok so you think culture is on top of human rights ?, what about female genital mutilation in some countries, is that OK, should we tolerate it ?.
I don't think you have to put in one side the funny/valuable posts and in the other side the punishable ones. Mensrea posted some comandments and that is the law here, no matter how funny the terrorists can be right ?
-Racist remarks will be shot down and you will be lynched.
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
On March 21 2007 01:58 Rekrul wrote: THESE DTP NIGGAS COME READY FOR WAR SO DON'T START THE GAME IF YOU WON'T SETTLE THE SCORE
I find this amusing.
Granted, hiphop isn't big in Sweden so you probably wouldn't know, but DTP stands for DISTURBING THE PEACE. It's name of a hiphop record label in US. So it's evidently a hiphop thing. Just because you're talking like a black man it does not make you a racist, it's actually the other way around. It's a trend that's setting across the world among youth who's trying to be cool. Not to mention that it's just a lyric from one of the songs Ludarcis produced I think?
Best to not post anything if you don't have clear idea about it.
If you want to talk about your pedo preferences I'm sure there's plenty of other forums to go to. Someone is told not to do something and they ignore it, then fuck it, they've only got themselves to blame.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
On March 21 2007 05:28 Telemako wrote: First: If Chibi is punished because he kept mass posting about it after promising he won't do it, I'm ok with it. If it's true he recognized he was going to far, promised to stop and then keep doing it he clearly put himself into the problem.
On March 21 2007 05:44 JudasT wrote: I didn't know, but Telemako said its 13.
Does this mean more men in Spain have sex with 13+ girls?
On March 21 2007 05:28 Telemako wrote: Third: If you have seen the table previously posted, here in Spain the age of consent is 13. It means that a 13 yo girl can have sexual relations with anyone if she wants to, because at that age she already is sexualy mature (average age for fist ovulation is 13). Obviously this law was made to protect 18(adult age here) yo to go to jail because his girlfriend was just 5 years younger and not to allow a 40 year old sick to sleep with 13 yo girls, that's why the consent part is added. I understand all the troubles it makes, I understand it is hard to talk about it without misundertandings. How in hell can a 13 year old be mature enough to understand a sexual relation and consent it?! The answer is that she won't. 1 / 1.000.000 13-15 year old girls will consent a sexual relation with a man over 30 yo. Conclusion: The sexual relation age of consent law is just a measure to protect non guilty relationships, not a barrier to allow mad sex if you surpase it.
On March 21 2007 00:35 MYM.Testie wrote: Mani, was there such public reaction that you had to really explain this? I thought the majority of people accepted it, and there were just a handful (1 or 2 including baal) who disagreed strongly with it. Perhaps the handful of people just kept pressing the issue so much that it seemed like there was more people so that you needed to justify it?
You didn't really need to justify the ban. It was understood and accepted by most. Grudgingly by some. Those that didn't accept it don't seem to get it perhaps never will.
I found that he expressed himself much more maturely than the vast majority of his flamers. And that while sober he generally was a good poster. I'll admit his infractions over time almost certainly do add up to a ban but even so, I'd rather he wasn't banned. Especially given this latest incident was not his fault. He was talking about something he was told not to. But he was talking rationally against Beyonders angry flaming.
On March 21 2007 05:29 bearnet2001 wrote: Every community has its own moral codes enforced by the leaders of the community or the community itself. Whether it be that randomly killing someone or doing a somersault is wrong and immoral doesn't really matter.
What I understand the reasoning behind the ban to be is that he broke the moral code repeatedly (pedophilia being considered wrong, immoral, against the rules, etc) and so was banned. I don't think anyone, upon looking at this, disagrees that he broke the moral code of TL.net, as decided by the moderators.
The question is more so whether or not the moral code is just (ie shared with the individual in question) or not. Is talking about pedophilia and essentially admitting to be a pedophile wrong? If you consider it wrong or unacceptable, you support the actions taken against it/him. If you don't, then you similarly don't support the consequences decided by the higher-ups.
Personally I agree with the administrators decision: I view pedophilia an unacceptable trait, and the constant mentions of situations which imply pedophilia-like desires with no remorse not tolerable.
You may say that there is no freedom in this, in banning someone because of a personal, emotional, sexual desire. But remember that we all have a limit to how much and what type of freedom is acceptable. While you may support 'freedom', that likely means that you support the right to do or say certain things without fear of punishment or retribution, but I'm sure that there are things that are still considered unacceptable in your mind. Murder or robbery would be a likely example of an unacceptable action in an otherwise free society.
I'm for freedom to a point, but Chibi has passed that boundary; justice, handed down by the community leaders, must follow. And so it has.
This is exactly what Chibi shouldn't have been banned for. In society paedophilia is a dangerous trait because it is an unfulfilable sexual urge. It should be monitored to prevent child abuse. Online, the best he can get is cyber, and I doubt many 10 year olds post here. He was a generally good poster and his sexual preferences shouldn't change a thing.
For the record, I have pictures of a 14 year old girl naked on my computer. I was 16 at the time, she'd been my girlfriend for over a year, we were having some fun. I'm 18 now, she's now an ex, and I don't jack off over those pictures. Even so, you could still phone the police about them and get me 5 years or so. Does this make any sense?
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
I couldn't disagree more. It's America without the sense of humour if anything. In Europe we're much more live and let live. Jeez. I mean come on. If we're going to stereotype entire continents we could at least to it correctly. Firstly, Chibi is British and therefore would be under Europe. Secondly, the US is stereotyped as having no sense of humour. For example arresting British students who make witty comments when asked "is it your intention to assassinate the president and/or commit acts of terrorism?" by immigration officials.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
On March 21 2007 00:56 Coagulation wrote: ok i dont want to sound like i disrespect admins decisions or anything. but What the fuck..
this is a internet forum.. who cares... you guys act like hes representing a political position or something.
I could tell you why, there are also other ppl that do not agree with this kind of fun, maybe thats the different between USA and Europe, but here we do not make jokes about kids and sex. if you want to do that in internet, go and find a US forum ^^, if it does not bother you, you are as sick as he is, even if he is in other things a really nice guy
What kind of stuck up society do you live in? Me and my friends constantly joke about Nazis, Paedophilia, Incest, racism and all the likes, as long as everyone knows its a fucking joke, who cares?
wonders where you grow up, if you have nothing else to talk about you should find a book and read so you get something real to talk about.
I am sry that i do not find any joke in if one talks about how he took a 12 - 13 year old girl, if it would have been my kid he would have had last time sex in his life
Hey, what's the best thing about fucking 28 year olds?
Chibi, for all his depravity, was really harmless. As far as his pedophilia went, he was a sexual idealist with a limited imagination. He has not done any harm IRL. In translating his depravities into action, he has shown more reservation than many of his critics.
On the other hand, he was a terrible poster, just like fakesteve. That I agree with.
On March 21 2007 08:30 MoltkeWarding wrote: Chibi, for all his depravity, was really harmless. As far as his pedophilia went, he was a sexual idealist with a limited imagination. He has not done any harm IRL. In translating his depravities into action, he has shown more reservation than many of his critics.
On the other hand, he was a terrible poster, just like fakesteve. That I agree with.
actually you will find that i am an excellent poster
Mani, sorry, but this entire section has nothing to do with pedophilia. I'm not going to bother finding others individually, this block serves the point. Also you mentioned they were taken out of context and not being fair.. I thought at least you would have picked ones that were unquestionably unnacceptable in nature... On February 24 2007 17:27 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: pm me if you want some of cute girls --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd sure as hell like some pics of cute girls?
On February 26 2007 17:01 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: i dont like porn very much . white girls are annoying and fake as fuck --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On March 02 2007 22:11 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: you can also get convicted of producing and distrubuting child pornography if you video or photo yourself/girlfriend under age of 18 (even if you are under 18 yourself). see my thread that was closed --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is news. Important news. You're both 17, you and your kinky girlfriend want to make a tape. It's not unheard of. What is is the fact that you could both be put in jail. I think you should be GRATEFUL to Chibi for posting things like this rather than try to hold them against him.
On March 02 2007 22:19 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: in england it is illegal for anyone under 16 to have sexual intimacy in any way with anyone else, underage or not. if the parents want to end their child's relationship with another child they can prosecute the 'offender' with the law.
bullshit laws like this are commonplace and are growing in number and frequency of use. in 10, 20, 40 years how do you see things to be different? USE YOUR BRAIN. THINK FOR A MOMENT. SHIT IS BAD AND IS GETTING WORSE. IT MATTERS. in not so many years the internet will be regulated. america already admitted to secretly recording internet useage. people are having their phones tapped. things like this are happening more frequently than you can imagine.
Similar to the last post.. In today's climate two people who are 15 can't have sex, even if they are both consenting, without a whole string of legal implications. That's bullshit and you know it. More importantly, that's all that he is saying.
If this is not the main reason for his ban then fair enough, if as you say he has had warnings and ignored them, regardless of subject, repeatedly then I guess he should be banned or whatever, he isn't running the show. But seriously, these examples are shit, you guys are WAY oversensitive, and if these or anything similar were the posts that warranted these warnings or considered as a breach of his agreements or whatever then you're all smoking crack.
as it appears ? no ban deserved =/ boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Edit: Chibi[OWNS] United Kingdom. January 23 2007 00:51. Posts 10598 PM Profile Buddy Quote just post pictures of your hot sister. no complications. no morals. no nothing. just sisters in bikinis. you know you want to
whats wrong with that?? some people have hot sisters and being a bit touchy? some people have little girl sisters and being a bit touchy? get over yourselves. that was at worst not-very-funny-but-at-least-he-tried.
On March 21 2007 08:30 MoltkeWarding wrote: Chibi, for all his depravity, was really harmless. As far as his pedophilia went, he was a sexual idealist with a limited imagination. He has not done any harm IRL. In translating his depravities into action, he has shown more reservation than many of his critics.
On the other hand, he was a terrible poster, just like fakesteve. That I agree with.
actually you will find that i am an excellent poster
If we assume Moltke compares to his own high standard, we're all terrible posters. Although I was somewhat unimpressed by the lack of historical references in his above post. I at least hoped for the words "ancien regime".
Time and time again we've been reminded that its the perogative of the mods/staff at tl.net to exercise their authority in banning people. In this instance, theyre simply exercising that right, the same one outlined in the Ten Commandments we've been instructed and warned to look at before we start posting.
HOWEVER The ideals pulsing behind this ban is whats bothering me. Although I've *only* been at TL.net for 2 years and posting for 1, I've seen many reasonable contributors, Chibi and Mitsy included, perm-banned for what seem to be biased opinions.
Consider this: the reasoning behind your ban of Chibi was that he refused to adhere to your request that he refrain from pedo references.
WHY did you ask that of him? Weak stomach, personal convictions, and grudges aside, is there any reason to ban him anymore than the dozens of other trolls who frequent this website, with MUCH more aggravating traits than his? I found Carlodijan's post...much...more...fucking....annoying...than Chibi's well written and argued threads. And the argument that he only talks about pedophilia - who gives a fuck? Its his image, just like how some of you flaunt your rock star status, or your real-life assholery (hi charliemurphy), and again, he argues his point in a way that you can't simply dismiss it as idiocy.
Id like to also say that I'm not a particular fan of Chibi, and his preference to children disgusts me. But so does Mora's homosexuality Rekrul's thug sp33k and Baal's poorly written posts. Ultimately though theyre my own preferences, and I do realize that its part of what enriches tl.net and makes it fun to engage in conversation, because we dont agree with what everyone says and it leads to interesting diatribes. I find myself laughing whenever someone gets bashed for making a stupid post, or arguing an impossible position. Taking away people who can contribute like Chibi only hurts the community as a whole. But I guess most of the mods already debated this to death, so whatever. Just a rant.
and honestly, chibi could have gotten permanently banned a long time ago and there would have been almost no objections. he has made a lot of drunken shit posts. but this time around, he was banned because beyonder took offense to a post that should not have been offensive, wrote a shitty flame post in retort (which then proceeded to escalate the discussion), and then banned chibi for posting about pedophelia and said he was going to leave the forums if chibi was unbanned.
then, after all this, and hundred posts of discussion between the moderators, I guess the eventual result was that the other moderators did not want to go against beyonders ultimatum (although they also criticised it) and thus found a reason to ban chibi ; he had posted tons of shit topics in the past. (and this is a fact. )
but first temp banning someone, then warning that person never to do this again, and then banning the poster without him doing what he was warned about, (in fact the post that made chibi get banned was one of the better posts in the thread, beyonder was the one who "turned the topic gay" through his "witty and clever" flame) constitutes what I regard as shitty as fuck moderation.
On March 21 2007 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote: haha kwark
and honestly, chibi could have gotten permanently banned a long time ago and there would have been almost no objections. he has made a lot of drunken shit posts. but this time around, he was banned because beyonder took offense to a post that should not have been offensive, wrote a shitty flame post in retort (which then proceeded to escalate the discussion), and then banned chibi for posting about pedophelia and said he was going to leave the forums if chibi was unbanned.
then, after all this, and hundred posts of discussion between the moderators, I guess the eventual result was that the other moderators did not want to go against beyonders ultimatum (although they also criticised it) and thus found a reason to ban chibi ; he had posted tons of shit topics in the past. (and this is a fact. )
but first temp banning someone, then warning that person never to do this again, and then banning the poster without him doing what he was warned about, (in fact the post that made chibi get banned was one of the better posts in the thread, beyonder was the one who "turned the topic gay" through his "witty and clever" flame) constitutes what I regard as shitty as fuck moderation.
If this is true then Beyonder is shit admin. And before I get flamed over this then I'd like to make some valid points. Admittedly that didn't work for Chibi but whatever, I've never been warned so far.
- A forum is not a popularity contest. That means that when Beyonder says "If you don't ban Chibi I'm leaving" you should not give in. Bans are for people who deserve them. And while Beyonder obviously felt Chibi deserved one Beyonder does not speak for tl.net. That he issued that ultimatum makes me lose all remaining respect for him. Way to act like a kid. "I don't like Chibi, I contribute to this website, I'll refuse to contribute if you don't get rid of Chibi." Does anyone think that is a decent way to act? Anyone at all? I'd have taken Beyonder up on it. Regardless of my views on Chibi simply because nothing gives him the right to act like that. He doesn't deserve admin powers.
We know there is dispute among the mods. The majority of tl.netters seem to want him back, but Beyonders e-terrorism (ban him or I make this website a worse place) seems to have prevailed.
I'd like this to go to vote. On the poll on the right hand side. He's a very old tl.netter, I think it'd be a justified use of it.
note that bey did apologize for submitting that ultimatum after getting a lot of criticism for it and said it was something he wrote in a moment of affect. but him banning chibi without us agreeing to ban him changed the discussion from "should we ban chibi permanently or not" to "should we unban chibi right in beyonders face"
obviously this makes chibi getting banned permanently far more likely.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
agreed
Agreed? What you mean is it agrees with your own personal preference and not a logical view. And you know that in typing it. This post is bullshit, as are a large portion of every other baal post ever made. He knows it as he's typing them.
The few people that mattered? Tell us, what makes Chibi matter? Being different? People being personally close to him? People who matter are people who contribute in a positive way. Pestering a forum and derailing threads multiple times is hardly contributing. His sense of humour was piss poor too. People who matter are people that make great contributions to the site. Not pester people repeatedly and annoy / anger them on a regular basis. Chibi was able to make well written and informed / valid discussion about his views. Despite previous bans he chose not to on multiple occasions. With such a subject it is best to use tact.
Point is he broke his own rules that he agreed to. Admins felt they had to set these rules on him due to angering a lot of people / derailing a lot of threads / making a lot of inflammatory remarks / dropping a few that were perma-ban worthy but they were lenient. Remember you'd open a thread and like 4 pages in you'd be like, "wtf it turned into another pedo thread?"
They did the correct thing under those circumstances because Chibi as you have seen over the years cannot stop talking about it. Even when asked. He feels it is necessary to bring up these points and challenge our society and try to convince others of his view. Until that is done he won't simply be quiet. The way he has done it in the past, multiple times, has been just wrong. He's said a lot of things that are just wrong. He doesn't get it. If he could make well informed posts always on the subject that requires so very much tact then he could exist fairly peacefully here even despite his views coinciding with others.
It's done baal. Stop trying to reverse the ban, it won't happen. But if you're going to question it, question it by point and debase it.
Saying, "why don't we clean up the other people" is one of the worst arguments i've ever heard. They are not near as persistent in their attempt to be annoying. Those that were for a short period of time - Strafe - for instance have been banned multiple times. And even he was able to keep many of his idiotic thoughts to himself.
Sorry baal, this site isn't one big MSN chat window anymore where you can say whatever the fuck you please. It's a very active and awesome forum. You can say almost whatever the fuck you please, be thankful with it and stop bitching.
You can pretty much ban Chibi for his most recent remarks anyway.
the fuck do you know we had a huge discussion about this in the men in red forum I've talked to chibi about how the process went I assume chibi talked to baal
baal is correct, chibi was not banned for causing trouble, he was banned due to one moderator having a huge personal bias against him. beyonder instigated chibi far more than the other way around, beyonder actively went out of his way to taunt chibi, while chibi merely posted about stuff that interests him with no intention of offending anyone. in fact his post in the thread that got him banned was an eloquent post which was backed up by facts which supported a view he had about homosexuality. beyonder, despite this, flames the post, in addition incontrol asks chibi what the deal about him and pedophelia is, then chibi posts more about pedophelia (BY REQUEST), and beyonder bans him for it.
the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
agreed
Agreed? What you mean is it agrees with your own personal preference and not a logical view.
I'm glad we have Testie here to be objective for us. Because with all these people voicing their own personal views it's good to have Testie who can see to the heart of any matter and can find the single objective truth. I now see my opinion was misguided, and crumbles in the face of Testie's unopinionated absolutely correct objectivity.
The majority agreed that he should be banned, regardless of me. He should have been banned a LONG TIME AGO. He got banned 8 times, djeesh.
He got a last chance from the staff and blew it. It's as simple as that.
If this is a place where we harbour and condone this, where folks can post sexually tinted pictures of waaaaay underage girls in skimmy outfits hinting at what-not, then indeed I do not want to moderate such a place. I tend to take a responsibility serious and the bucket overflowed; he continued to adress a topic which he vouched not to adress. It was't as direct after the warning, but he provokingly continued what he was doing before it. You can agree or not agree on the decision he agreed upon - not posting about pedo - but he agreed upon it and didnt followup.
Call me childish, but it is the way it works for me. I will not hold ANY KIND of responsibily on a delicate subject such as this. He posts this shit on the General Forum, and I feel - am - responsible for it. It is no joking matter and it should never be. If it becomes this, if he continues, if nothing is done, then yes I will take a stand and pack my bags if the majority of the staff sees different on this situation. That aint no biggy. Ethics is an important aspect of life.
Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about. I like how Drone is trying to pull the 'OMG PERSONAL GRUDGE CARD'. My ass, Drone, my ass. Are you this blind, or am I this stupid?
(Posted on my moms laptop, I cant see shit on this thing, but felt I had to respond nonetheless)
Eri, you didn't answer that other thing you agreed with in baals post. This site becoming worse / what makes Chibi matter? "this forum suddenly took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left..."
As you can all see, this was a hot issue between the mods and all other staff members alike.
In general, Saro's post shows that Chibi should have been banned long ago due to the things he's posted on the forum. That, more than the act that actually resulted in the ban, should be what you're using to measure the legitimacy of the ban.
On March 21 2007 09:27 Beyonder wrote: Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about.
Erm... - Before topic he wasn't banned. - After topic he was. - You believe that what he said in that topic wasn't banworthy. - You ban him.
That makes very little sense to me.
And I'm some guy who posts on this website. Who the fuck are you?
On March 21 2007 09:27 Smurg wrote: Chibi being gone is sad.
Kinda like 2pac being shot when he was so young.
Eri, what do you mean by this?: "the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate."
What happened after he was banned? Just 'general trouble making'?
what happened was that first chibi was banned with very little reason, and beyonder saying he would leave the site if he was unbanned. then we had a big discussion about it, and the moderators mostly agreed (with a couple fence sitters and me and travis being opposed) that he should not be unbanned. then, saro started digging and found out that chibi had been banned 8 times in the past, but this happened while we were deciding how to explain the ban to the public ; not before he was banned.
not to mention that temp bans are only supposed to lead to a permanent ban if they are followed by further fuckups, in this case we had a temp ban leading to a permanent ban due to one moderators strong feelings, and many moderators unwillingness to go against that moderator. chibi did not break any rules or posting guidelines after returning from his previous temp ban. (that temp ban could easily have been a permanent one though, and even I would not be objecting much then. ) however when we first temp ban someone, and that someone then cleans up his act, I don't understand how my fellow moderators can argue that permanently banning him afterwards is correct.
On March 21 2007 09:16 MYM.Testie wrote: They did the correct thing under those circumstances because Chibi as you have seen over the years cannot stop talking about it. Even when asked. He feels it is necessary to bring up these points and challenge our society and try to convince others of his view. Until that is done he won't simply be quiet.
Whats wrong with this? Many people active on tl.net are equally one-dimensional. It only becomes wrong when a moderator asks him to stop, but then that would lead to questioning behind the said moderator's intentions.
Granted TL.mods have absolute power over the going-ons of this site, but as someone said earlier, this might be constricting not necessarily free speech (since there relaly isnt here) but the dynamics of the site.
If he could make well informed posts always on the subject that requires so very much tact then he could exist fairly peacefully here even despite his views coinciding with others.
from my viewing experiences, chibi IS articulate enough, even in the face of flames. The last thread w/ beyonder, for example.
He's said a lot of things that are just wrong. He doesn't get it.
Opinion?
People ragging on Chibi really should take a look at themselves in the mirror first.
On March 21 2007 09:27 Beyonder wrote: Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about.
Erm. Before topic he wasn't banned. After topic he was. You believe that what he said in that topic wasn't banworthy. You ban him.
And I'm some guy who posts on this website. Who the fuck are you?
The single act, no. The whole picture, yes for sure. Can't you read?
Continuing to adress a topic he vouched not to adress. Continueing to hint and it on every possibility. He broke the rules set out for him after 7 bans. Not to forget that he should have been banned a LONG TIME AGO, but that doesnt count as much.
As for people calling me weak. Really, isn't this how it works. I work with these people and we have a policy. This is a very important subject for me: ethics, views, morals. If these folks dont share my views on such an important side, then I am not meant to 'work' as a moderator here. That's no problem for me. I just state the facts.
I really didn't mind chibi when he was here. He kind of gave off that village idiot vibe (mostly cuz he was drunk half the time). He's essentially harmless, and Kwark brought up a great point by mentioning Mora. I really don't doubt Beyonder would react in a similar way to Mora if he were homophobic, although definitely less severe because Mora is a top-notch poster. It's an interesting parallel though, because both Chibi and Mora have atypical views on sex and will both go into detail when probed (given Mora does do more articulately).
For me its exactly the same thing, because fucking a 15 year old is the same place on my list as fucking a dude: in the "Not Gonna Happen" section. But I liked that Chibi would entertain viewpoints that differed from his, and remained incredibly collected when people were being deliberately obtuse. Out of the thousands of posts Chibi had, it can't accurately be said that "all he posts about is fucking lil children." That shows incredible bias and ignorance towards Chibi as a poster.
On top of this Chibi has been here for forever and a half. It seemed odd to me that he would be handed a permanent ban at a time where he really had been toning down his posts on the subject (please don't argue this, I can count on one hand the number of people who would disagree with this statement and none of them will look past their own bias). Chibi really is one of the 'characters' here, and there are a bunch of other posters I would think should go before he would. People like myself, baal, and incontrol get away with more than Chibi was banned for. Incontrol is definitely entitled to this leniency. I'm not sure why baal and I get it (I say this because the people that have a strong distaste for me around here have no problem overlooking the various things i do or have done for TL/sc and holding select posts over my head), besides the fact that we've been here forever as well.
I don't really like the method of moderation that takes place here either, but given the fact that I take advantage of the leniency I get I'm in no position to complain. Hell, I'll even finish this post without a snide remark to Beyonder.
On March 21 2007 09:27 Beyonder wrote: Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about.
Erm. Before topic he wasn't banned. After topic he was. You believe that what he said in that topic wasn't banworthy. You ban him.
And I'm some guy who posts on this website. Who the fuck are you?
The single act, no. The whole picture, yes for sure. Can't you read?
Continuing to adress a topic he vouched not to adress. Continueing to hint and it on every possibility. He broke the rules set out for him after 7 bans. Not to forget that he should have been banned a LONG TIME AGO, but that doesnt count as much.
Yes, I can read. And the whole picture wasn't enough to ban him before that topic, given that he wasn't banned at that point. And the whole picture was enough to ban him after that topic. Therefore it stands to reason that the tipping point was that topic. Something that you claim not to be true. I will demonstrate this logically if I must.
A = Whole picture before topic. B = Whole picture after topic. C = Value of topic. 1 = Arbitary banning figure. A+C=B
A<1 (Chibi was able to post before topic) B>1 (Chibi was unable to post after topic) Therefore C>0.
Something you claim not to be the case when you say that the topic did not merit a ban.
On March 21 2007 09:27 Smurg wrote: Chibi being gone is sad.
Kinda like 2pac being shot when he was so young.
Eri, what do you mean by this?: "the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate."
What happened after he was banned? Just 'general trouble making'?
what happened was that first chibi was banned with very little reason, and beyonder saying he would leave the site if he was unbanned. then we had a big discussion about it, and the moderators mostly agreed (with a couple fence sitters and me and travis being opposed) that he should not be unbanned. then, saro started digging and found out that chibi had been banned 8 times in the past, but this happened while we were deciding how to explain the ban to the public ; not before he was banned.
not to mention that temp bans are only supposed to lead to a permanent ban if they are followed by further fuckups, in this case we had a temp ban leading to a permanent ban due to one moderators strong feelings, and many moderators unwillingness to go against that moderator. chibi did not break any rules or posting guidelines after returning from his previous temp ban. (that temp ban could easily have been a permanent one though, and even I would not be objecting much then. ) however when we first temp ban someone, and that someone then cleans up his act, I don't understand how my fellow moderators can argue that permanently banning him afterwards is correct.
Ah I see.
The thing is, Chibi seemingly doesn't take on board all that he should, he's volatile...but I think that's his freedom as a poster. He had many quality and humorous posts, he had interesting insights into things and he was fairly clever with words when he wanted to be.
Sure there was something inside him that made him want to post on here while drunk/stoned or whatever but that was just what made him 'famous'. Now it's turned into such a big drama over such a small period of time, sure some of what he is saying is sensitive. But with that 'SHIP ME YOUR SISTER' thread...he was probably drunk, feeling random and wanting to shock TL.net or something absurd like that.
Somehow to me he characterises HARMLESS, he doesn't 'properly' act like how I'd expect a real pedophile to act, instead it seems he's trying to play the 'shock' card in most cases.
I guess all that he needed to learn was to not log on to TL.net whilst wasted. Bad consequences for him, but I don't think he should be banned...but see, now his image is even bigger than before. Along with Stimey and Hovz, I guess he's the most talked about TL.net member.
Notoriety it would seem is much more powerful than fitting your typical 'average' or 'good' poster haha.
On March 21 2007 09:31 MYM.Testie wrote: Eri, you didn't answer that other thing you agreed with in baals post. This site becoming worse / what makes Chibi matter? "this forum suddenly took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left..."
i do believe this kind of moderation is harmful to the site. i don't necessarily agree with that one line, but I chose to regard it as a pretty insignificant one. from baal's point of view it makes sense tho because most of his old tl buddies moved to liquidpoker and he hasnt posted enough recently to notice all the awesome newcomers.
On March 21 2007 09:27 Beyonder wrote: Some people posting here have no clue at all, (who the fuck is Kwark?). They only see that topic. I agree that on that topic alone he shouldnt be banned, but there is a lot of history to this subject that few know about.
Erm. Before topic he wasn't banned. After topic he was. You believe that what he said in that topic wasn't banworthy. You ban him.
And I'm some guy who posts on this website. Who the fuck are you?
The single act, no. The whole picture, yes for sure. Can't you read?
Continuing to adress a topic he vouched not to adress. Continueing to hint and it on every possibility. He broke the rules set out for him after 7 bans. Not to forget that he should have been banned a LONG TIME AGO, but that doesnt count as much.
If he isn't banned from the getgo, things like this become just a 'character quirk' because we know he's harmless. After that point is reached, banning him fucks up the status quo which its your job as a moderator to maintain.
What you did is incredibly petty and I don't think you're helping the situation by denying that.
the fuck do you know we had a huge discussion about this in the men in red forum I've talked to chibi about how the process went I assume chibi talked to baal
baal is correct, chibi was not banned for causing trouble, he was banned due to one moderator having a huge personal bias against him. beyonder instigated chibi far more than the other way around, beyonder actively went out of his way to taunt chibi, while chibi merely posted about stuff that interests him with no intention of offending anyone. in fact his post in the thread that got him banned was an eloquent post which was backed up by facts which supported a view he had about homosexuality. beyonder, despite this, flames the post, in addition incontrol asks chibi what the deal about him and pedophelia is, then chibi posts more about pedophelia (BY REQUEST), and beyonder bans him for it.
the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate.
I can't believe you're saying this when you were right there when 20 mods were discussing it, it wasn't like this at all. Beyonder banned Chibi, everyone said this is not acceptable before discussing the ban, and everyone agreed that we should discuss whether Chibi should be banned or not regardless of what Bey did or said.
The discussion about Chibi had nothing to do with Beyonder prematurely banning him and you damn well know this. You were right there when everyone discussed it. The discussion was completely about Chibi and the fact that he was prematurely banned or that Beyonder made an ultimatum (for which he later apologized and had no influence on the discussion for ANY of the admins) had absolutely nothing to do with each mods motivations.
He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Apparently Drone is angry and trying to retaliate or something? Hate the Dutchman!
Cant believe he really sees it this way. I can understand he doesnt like what happened and that he appreciates Chibi in the community, but.. well see Naz's post. wtf.
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
Bey: If he doesn't stay banned I am not meant to be a mod Rest: Take that back right now that is not how we deal with things around here, we will continue discussing Chibi the way we were Bey: I am terribly sorry it was emotions talking, but I have very strong feelings about the subject
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
And if the mod team had decided Chibi should stay on TL and Bey would leave TL then so be it but these kind of things are simply unwanted from mods and I believe Bey knows it.
the fuck do you know we had a huge discussion about this in the men in red forum I've talked to chibi about how the process went I assume chibi talked to baal
baal is correct, chibi was not banned for causing trouble, he was banned due to one moderator having a huge personal bias against him. beyonder instigated chibi far more than the other way around, beyonder actively went out of his way to taunt chibi, while chibi merely posted about stuff that interests him with no intention of offending anyone. in fact his post in the thread that got him banned was an eloquent post which was backed up by facts which supported a view he had about homosexuality. beyonder, despite this, flames the post, in addition incontrol asks chibi what the deal about him and pedophelia is, then chibi posts more about pedophelia (BY REQUEST), and beyonder bans him for it.
the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate.
I can't believe you're saying this when you were right there when 20 mods were discussing it, it wasn't like this at all. Beyonder banned Chibi, everyone said this is not acceptable before discussing the ban, and everyone agreed that we should discuss whether Chibi should be banned or not regardless of what Bey did or said.
The discussion about Chibi had nothing to do with Beyonder prematurely banning him and you damn well know this. You were right there when everyone discussed it. The discussion was completely about Chibi and the fact that he was prematurely banned or that Beyonder made an ultimatum (for which he later apologized and had no influence on the discussion for ANY of the admins) had absolutely nothing to do with each mods motivations.
I don't see how what you are saying happened and what Drone is saying happened are at odds. According to you both the ban itself WAS premature and the other men in red agreed on that. From that point, however, the whole nature of the discussion inherently changes from "Has Chibi done enough to deserve this ban?" to "Has Chibi done enough to warrant an unban?" which are two completely different discussions. Drone and other are upset that the discussion inherently took place AFTER the act instead of the usual course. Once Beyonder apologized for the ultimatum, you guys didn't unban Chibi and shift the argument back to the first question. The argument was already shifted so suggesting that the premature banning and ultimatum had no effect on the discussions is a little unfair.
Had this this thread been left unwritten, the public would have surely acquiesced in the fait accompli. As it is, the justification of accounts has led to the awakening of public opinion, which, unleashed in its full fury, is the most destructive tyrant of all.
It whiffs of 1789, where, in unnecessary royalist appeals to public opinion in the reinstatement Jacques Neckar, the government accelerated the cascade into the great civil war, leading to the demise of the Ancien Regime.
My hope is of course, that whatever minor differences of principle separate the moderators, they remain sympathetic to each other's opinions. Drone, whose populist sympathies have cast him in the role of the Duc d'Orleans, may be especially advised to be on guard against his 16th Brumaire.
On March 21 2007 10:07 MoltkeWarding wrote: Had this this thread been left unwritten, the public would have surely acquiesced in the fait accompli. As it is, the justification of accounts has led to the awakening of public opinion, which, unleashed in its full fury, is the most destructive tyrant of all.
It whiffs of 1789, where, in unnecessary royalist appeals to public opinion in the reinstatement Jacques Neckar, the government accelerated the cascade into the great civil war, leading to the demise of the Ancien Regime.
My hope is of course, that whatever minor differences of principle separate the moderators, they remain sympathetic to each other's opinions. Drone, whose populist sympathies have cast him in the role of the Duc d'Orleans, may be especially advised to be on guard against his 16th Brumaire.
I will never understand what you are saying moltke.
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
Bey: If he doesn't stay banned I am not meant to be a mod Rest: Take that back right now that is not how we deal with things around here, we will continue discussing Chibi the way we were Bey: I am terribly sorry it was emotions talking, but I have very strong feelings about the subject
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
A comment like that will undoubtedly make Chibi seem worse than he is. I'd never suggest that you'd allow Beyonder to force you all into a 'him or me' thing, but its going to have an effect on the decision. Chibi being banned prematurely is also going to have an effect on the decision because you value Beyonder's input.
Everything that happens makes Chibi look a little better or a little worse, this is the inherent nature of such things. Not suggesting you guys were lining up and picking teams over it.
On March 21 2007 10:07 MoltkeWarding wrote: Had this this thread been left unwritten, the public would have surely acquiesced in the fait accompli. As it is, the justification of accounts has led to the awakening of public opinion, which, unleashed in its full fury, is the most destructive tyrant of all.
that's not true at all, a thread of this manner was heavily requested. silence came when it was promised and now its here, so we talk.
On March 21 2007 10:12 -_- wrote: Have any of you actually met Mora??
Nope, but I've seen his picture. Pretty good looking guy, glad hes not competition.
and moltke
o_______________________O
Well, it's just that all you guys are acting like he is gay. And I always assumed it was a massive schtick...
Edit: Like, he's written (on tl.net and on teamcanada forums I think), that he's had sex with HUNDREDS of men... written about giving blowjobs to uncircumsized guys, and all kinds of over the top shit.
Fine then, just revert his damn post count to 0. Christ. That's by far the biggest annoyance apparently, hell the whole damn site knew of his "pedo" aura if you will, but did they know the origin, No. I sure as hell didn't. It was ETT and that pic that clued me in. Then the other thread(s) that would be create and comments @ him or by him.
On March 21 2007 10:12 -_- wrote: Have any of you actually met Mora??
Nope, but I've seen his picture. Pretty good looking guy, glad hes not competition.
and moltke
o_______________________O
Edit: Like, he's written (on tl.net and on teamcanada forums I think), that he's had sex with HUNDREDS of men... written about giving blowjobs to uncircumsized guys, and all kinds of over the top shit.
On March 21 2007 10:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Mora is actually gay, yes. He talks about it when its requested. Mani has hung out with him many times and I'd do the same were I in BC
So mani[/i]GAYSTO[/i] is part of the conspiracy too. I expected as much. Luckily I've been logging both their IP's (and YOURZ FAKESTEVE so think carefully before you answer the following question: I am james bond.
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
well, thats why I was kinda shock, because I though that was what happened
On March 21 2007 10:07 MoltkeWarding wrote: Had this this thread been left unwritten, the public would have surely acquiesced in the fait accompli. As it is, the justification of accounts has led to the awakening of public opinion, which, unleashed in its full fury, is the most destructive tyrant of all.
It whiffs of 1789, where, in unnecessary royalist appeals to public opinion in the reinstatement Jacques Neckar, the government accelerated the cascade into the great civil war, leading to the demise of the Ancien Regime.
My hope is of course, that whatever minor differences of principle separate the moderators, they remain sympathetic to each other's opinions. Drone, whose populist sympathies have cast him in the role of the Duc d'Orleans, may be especially advised to be on guard against his 16th Brumaire.
Fantastic!!! Seriously laughing a lot here. I mentioned the Ancien Regime as a joke and you worked it into a valid, if incomprehensible point. It always surprises me that your mastery of the English language far surpasses mine.
the fuck do you know we had a huge discussion about this in the men in red forum I've talked to chibi about how the process went I assume chibi talked to baal
baal is correct, chibi was not banned for causing trouble, he was banned due to one moderator having a huge personal bias against him. beyonder instigated chibi far more than the other way around, beyonder actively went out of his way to taunt chibi, while chibi merely posted about stuff that interests him with no intention of offending anyone. in fact his post in the thread that got him banned was an eloquent post which was backed up by facts which supported a view he had about homosexuality. beyonder, despite this, flames the post, in addition incontrol asks chibi what the deal about him and pedophelia is, then chibi posts more about pedophelia (BY REQUEST), and beyonder bans him for it.
the justification for the ban came after the ban, not before the ban. obviously a crappy ass way to moderate.
I can't believe you're saying this when you were right there when 20 mods were discussing it, it wasn't like this at all. Beyonder banned Chibi, everyone said this is not acceptable before discussing the ban, and everyone agreed that we should discuss whether Chibi should be banned or not regardless of what Bey did or said.
The discussion about Chibi had nothing to do with Beyonder prematurely banning him and you damn well know this. You were right there when everyone discussed it. The discussion was completely about Chibi and the fact that he was prematurely banned or that Beyonder made an ultimatum (for which he later apologized and had no influence on the discussion for ANY of the admins) had absolutely nothing to do with each mods motivations.
I don't see how what you are saying happened and what Drone is saying happened are at odds. According to you both the ban itself WAS premature and the other men in red agreed on that. From that point, however, the whole nature of the discussion inherently changes from "Has Chibi done enough to deserve this ban?" to "Has Chibi done enough to warrant an unban?" which are two completely different discussions. Drone and other are upset that the discussion inherently took place AFTER the act instead of the usual course. Once Beyonder apologized for the ultimatum, you guys didn't unban Chibi and shift the argument back to the first question. The argument was already shifted so suggesting that the premature banning and ultimatum had no effect on the discussions is a little unfair.
The discussion was: Should Chibi be banned.
If the answer outcoming of this discussion had been no, then we'd unban him. But banning him and then unbanning him, and then banning him again one week later, now THAT would be weird. The discussion was already going when Beys emotions took control of his actions, btw. So we continued that discussion the way it was before and everyone agreed the ultimatum was retarded and paid no further attention to it.
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
Bey: If he doesn't stay banned I am not meant to be a mod Rest: Take that back right now that is not how we deal with things around here, we will continue discussing Chibi the way we were Bey: I am terribly sorry it was emotions talking, but I have very strong feelings about the subject
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
A comment like that will undoubtedly make Chibi seem worse than he is. I'd never suggest that you'd allow Beyonder to force you all into a 'him or me' thing, but its going to have an effect on the decision. Chibi being banned prematurely is also going to have an effect on the decision because you value Beyonder's input.
Everything that happens makes Chibi look a little better or a little worse, this is the inherent nature of such things. Not suggesting you guys were lining up and picking teams over it.
You're right. The effect on the decision was that at least one mod was pro-ban.
Other than that I think you have to believe me when I say every mod was as opposed to Beys actions as Eri, yet Eri's opinion wasn't influenced and neither was any of the other mods'. Give them some credit they're not a bunch of brainless monkeys hopping around, the whole mod team consists of intelligent people being capable of making their own decisions.
On March 21 2007 09:39 Beyonder wrote: As for people calling me weak. Really, isn't this how it works. I work with these people and we have a policy. This is a very important subject for me: ethics, views, morals. If these folks dont share my views on such an important side, then I am not meant to 'work' as a moderator here. That's no problem for me. I just state the facts.
I don't care for Chibi's preferences at all and I barely know him as a person, but what I hear from Drone and this post of yours, it is disturbing that so much apparent personal bias goes into the decisions moderators make. Despite how you couch your statement, your essentially leveraging your importance to the community to impose your own views on the forum. You know no one really wants to jump out and say, "No we disagree with you, now leave this site.", so you your taking hostage of this fact to back yourself in this debate. This is just a disingenuous way of putting forth your earlier ultimatum in disguised form.
And that sir, is what every mod agreed upon, and what Beyonder apologized for. You are not saying anything new and nothing you will say has not been said to him already. But you're right on.
On March 21 2007 10:34 Gene wrote: This thread should not be about Beyonder's character. He said one thing in the heat of the moment that he is apparently well aware should not have been said. What he did was bring the issue to attention. Nothing more.
On March 21 2007 09:39 Beyonder wrote: As for people calling me weak. Really, isn't this how it works. I work with these people and we have a policy. This is a very important subject for me: ethics, views, morals. If these folks dont share my views on such an important side, then I am not meant to 'work' as a moderator here. That's no problem for me. I just state the facts.
I don't care for Chibi's preferences at all and I barely know him as a person, but what I hear from Drone and this post of yours, it is disturbing that so much apparent personal bias goes into the decisions moderators make. Despite how you couch your statement, your essentially leveraging your importance to the community to impose your own views on the forum. You know no one really wants to jump out and say, "No we disagree with you, now leave this site.", so you your taking hostage of this fact to back yourself in this debate. This is just a disingenuous way of putting forth your earlier ultimatum in disguised form.
This thread should not be about Beyonder's character. He said one thing in the heat of the moment that he is apparently well aware should not have been said. What he did was bring the issue to attention. Nothing more.
Moreover, trying to say his statement influenced the decision of the other mods discredits their intelligence and wisdom. They are not children. They can stand on their own and have their own opinions as well.
On March 21 2007 10:27 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: You're right. The effect on the decision was that at least one mod was pro-ban.
Other than that I think you have to believe me when I say every mod was as opposed to Beys actions as Eri, yet Eri's opinion wasn't influenced and neither was any of the other mods'. Give them some credit they're not a bunch of brainless monkeys hopping around, the whole mod team consists of intelligent people being capable of making their own decisions.
Yeah, I don't mean to be condescending or anything. The fact that I don't particularily like the way the forum is moderated has little to no bearing on my opinion of the moderators themselves.
Beyonder's irrationability tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I suppose I assumed a little too much.
I'm at work now, and haven't been able to read the entire thread thus far (I think I've read the first two and the last two pages); but to sum it up from my point of view:
1) Chibi posted the blatent pedo thread. You all know which one I'm talking about. Nearly *anyone* else on the site would have been banned outright, and deservedly so. Many mods were calling for a ban then, and I think there would have been much less objection then. But since it was Chibi, he received a temp ban.
2) Chibi was warned, very specifically, to avoid all mention of the topic, or anything that could even be conceived as being on that topic. He agreed to this.
3) Chibi then proceeded to, of course, still touch on the topic. Yes, he had toned it down and was more subtle, but I think his intentions were deceptive in nature. He just can't control himself. And once Saro brought up HOW many times we've gone through the same thing with him, it's pretty damn clear he was never going to learn.
I've always liked Chibi, and I've always liked what he brought to TL, minus the whole being a pedo thing. But you just can't have a blatent disregard for the rules like that, and I think that each temp ban he returned from made him more convinced that he was untouchable, and our words were falling on deaf ears. It had to come to this, if not now, then the next time he posted something of very questionable nature... IMO it was inevitable. No one is untouchable on this site, including even veterans and mods.
1. On the issue of pedophilia, banning him takes away an outlet for him, potentially making him more likely to actually do something. Of course, the degree to which this will actually have an effect is unknowable, but that fact that it will have some, if small, effect, is undeniable.
2. Thanks a lot for the well written, thought out conversation and the apparently intense debate about this subject. I don't know enough about the degree of disruption chibi brought throughout the years, and I certainly have no idea what was said on the internal forums, but this explanation is proof that the decision was made in a thoughtful, careful way.
3. Regardless of whether or not he had much to do with this issue, it seems like there has been a reoccurring tension about beyonder's conservative-christian moderation.
This is a very important subject for me: ethics, views, morals. If these folks dont share my views on such an important side, then I am not meant to 'work' as a moderator here. That's no problem for me. I just state the facts.
Maybe I'm confused by the slightly confused wording here, but it seems to me he's saying that if the official line held by the TL.net staff isn't in accordance with his sense of ethics, he doesn't think he should be a moderator. While I certainly wouldn't suggest an opinion on beyonder as a moderator, as again, I haven't had much direct experience with any of this, I certainly hope that TL.net doesn't have an official set of standards that claim to be "morally" derived. I certainly don't think that any single set of ethics can be said to represent a community as diverse as tl.net.
3. Regardless of whether or not he had much to do with this issue, it seems like there has been a reoccurring tension about beyonder's conservative-christian moderation.
I don't have a problem with any of the content of his posts. My only problem is that once everyone started joking about chibi being a pedo he loved the attention and took every opportunity to turn a conversation into pedophilia, or about himself.
Honestly Chibi, you've been posting here for years, and barring some pedophile revelation, you've probably felt the same way the entire time you've been here. But over the past 3 months all you can post about is young girls when 2 years ago you've never even brought it up. Nobody cares about your attraction to young girls, you should've learned to be quiet.
On March 21 2007 11:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: it really seems like a huge amount of people have a misconception of what chibi actually thinks and feels.
I don't think they care how he thinks or feels. They care about how he portrayed himself and acted. Which is the only way they can judge him. On his own words and actions.
i think its because they have no clue about chibi and then they read someone saying chibi is a pedo and jump to conclusions like hes a rapist, and bla bla without even knowing chibi
3. Regardless of whether or not he had much to do with this issue, it seems like there has been a reoccurring tension about beyonder's conservative-christian moderation.
hahahahahah I cant stop giggling
lol ok maybe its a bit extreme, but you know what i mean
On March 21 2007 11:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: it really seems like a huge amount of people have a misconception of what chibi actually thinks and feels.
I don't think they care how he thinks or feels. They care about how he portrayed himself and acted. Which is the only way they can judge him. On his own words and actions.
if you dont know how he really feels and what he really thinks you are judging him on assumptions you make which is kinda dumb
or maybe yeah you have a point, the way a person portraits towards others might give you a glance, but you cant judge him base on that
For some weird reason, when I read through this thread again, I skipped everyone's post but the moderators. Noone else is making any sense and not like it matters. He's banned. Deal with it. The mods aren't stupid. They know what they are doing. Obviously, the majority motioned for it.
Logic would tell you that...
If you think that banning Chibi was a stupid idea And if the majority of mods were for banning Chibi Then the majority of mods in this forum are stupid
If you think that the majority of mods in this forum are stupid And you can't deal with it Then get the fuck out
well here is a post by chibi, not even in response to this thread
chibi says
Okay well I start rambling here and there as usual but you certainly get what you pay for. I HAVEN'T read the thread yet, and a lot of the below is simply pure and simple responses and explainations and clarifications. Whether you want to hear them or not, obviously some people are interested because otherwise they wouldn't have said all this shit in the first place.
a) I have never promoted paedophilia. I have discussed the possibility of younger people being capable of mature consent. I eventually concluded that the AoC must remain quite high and inflexible, for various obvious and less-obvious reasons, however also that I feel more research needs to be done into exactly what age it should be maintained at.
Just look at the states for example. Homosexuality, oral sex, intercourse.. ages of consent vary massively. I've seen countless posts on youtube and whatnot, referring to someone being a "disgusting pedo who should be locked up" for admiring someone 15 or 16. Sound familiar?
(If you don't understand, I was comparing those sort of people to the sort of people who find 15-16 year old girls attractive, but at the same time bash on people who like 12-13 year olds.)
b) Several times I told people to cut the crap with the pedo jokes and bs about me.
c) I have not posted anything illegal. I agree in hindsight my "do you find these girls attractive?" thread was in poor taste. I didn't have my own computer during those months and kinda rushed into it with the very limited time I had. I've explained before that I posted it only because it followed two other threads of the same theme ("do you find this woman hot?").
d) I'm seriously getting the impression that some people are reading "pedophilia" to mean "kiddie fucking". What the hell is wrong with you? Paedophilia is neither particularly uncommon nor is it usually a persons "sole" attraction. I like women as much as the next guy (not Mora). I just have this extra attraction towards youth. And it's not necessarily anything more than an initial visual attraction.
I'm sure a lot of paedophiles find young girls attractive visually, but wouldn't want to date one because they're annoying and loud and dumb, for example. And if someone _is_ attracted to a young persons personality, that isn't so damn creepy now is it? Someone might like immature people because he's pretty immature, playful, careless, himself. Someone might like them because he likes to have someone to teach, in the same way a parent or school teacher likes to teach. It's not a "justification" - it's simply an explaination. And it's not THAT creepy.
I do think it's unfortunate, and can present a danger, and can result in a lot of depression and strife for the poor guy or gal that has to deal with it. But something not within someone's control is never a question of morals. What you DO with these people, and what they do with themselves, is connected with morality.
But paedophiles are not child abusers. An attraction to kids is far from uncontrollable. If you have any sexual attraction that is uncontrollable I think you should seek help.
We're talking about someone who is inclined to argue - knowing that he may well be wrong - that some young people are capable of consent. What's the big fucking deal? I'm not talking about raping 8 year olds here.
e) As far as I'm aware I always use rationality to "justify" things. I don't say they're good but I do point out the reasons they occur, and the reasons they might be considered ok. I am always open-minded to people who respond in a similar manner, and I've expressed that I don't trust in my own opinion 100%, but that I do value it since I consider myself informed.
Which is a good thing, don't you think? I've spent a good few hours on a certain child modelling forum recently and have been discussing several things about the law and morality, and often explaining to people (paedophiles) why they are wrong to think what they do.
Simple examples: should child glamour modelling in any form be legal, since it is a "sexual activity"? If so, should it be controlled with a specific age of consent? What about beauty pageants? What about Dakota acting in that rape scene in her new movie? Does the fact that the movie has "artistic value" protect her from the potential abuse she might suffer in being involved in something sexual and disturbing? If she's having some special psychological evaluation applied to answer these questions, then can't the same be done for child models and the like?
Discussing these things and actively changing people's opinions for the better is kinda fun. It means a 19 year old might not go to jail for "molesting" his 14 year old girlfriend, and it means some poor 5 year old might not be dressed up in a bikini and made to pose erotically for some sick fucks to jack off over.
I'm gonna finish up with some responses to Testie and Incontrol coz they posted a fuckload of trolling lies and I wasn't able to respond and show people this before. I could respond to them much more, but won't.
"Second off, he continually brings it into threads that aren't related. Is homosexuality hereditary? Is this relevant?"
Yes it was.
"A good % of his posts tend to have the underlying quality of pushing his viewpoint on other people which has already been majorly rejected."
Well, I was involved in 4-5 debates about the subject. You can read them for yourself to see the content, tone and context of each of my posts. They are 12-19 pages long each so you've got some reading to do if you want to know the truth. I was talking to people who think "giving out condoms in schools is promoting paedophilia".
"People are trying to do what is right for their children, while his whole viewpoint takes away from that ignoring them."
What the fuck is my "whole viewpoint" anyway Testie? Do you know or are you making things up?
"Chibi's viewpoint condones it and finds it socially acceptable."
What viewpoint? What do I condone? If I've said something is socially acceptable then I must have been talking about a place where it is socially acceptable, by definition.
"finds it socially acceptable to sleep with a child"
???
"He can make all the excuses of, "if they are mentally grown and willing it should be alright. There are some very mature kids out there.""
Well, sure, that's the whole arguement for any AoC ruling. Shut the fuck up.
"For all we know his viewpoint is that of, "If I ever had a child sure, why not slip it into a kid that won't remember that i'm doing it. No harm done, and I get to experience it"."
Okay well now we've concluded that you have no idea what my viewpoint is, nor indeed know anything about me whatsoever, how about you stop posing defamatory trolls like this.
Regarding Incontrol:
Can't really be bothered with you. People should read all the giant pedo threads if they want to know what actually went on in them, as I've said before. I think the latest one started off about bestiality?
"Wasn't it like, litterally only a few months he made that thread that was completely saturated with young girls half nude and straddling sculpture penis' etc?"
I posted multiple half-nude girls? No? And the picture of sculpture penis wasn't posted by me afaik.
"He also asked "Who wouldnt stick their penis in that" in referance to an 11 year old girl."
Yeh, that was Saaya Irie, the young supermodel in Japan who has been posted about before because she has enormous breasts. What's your point? All that stuff was stupid and I got banned for it, as far as I can recall, months ago. Here's that thread:
LASTLY (omg), here is a brief summary of my "viewpoint". For those that didn't get it the first 600 times.
"chibi has made his views very clear in the past numerous times and does not condone relations with a child. he has concluded that some 13 year olds are able to consent, and that it is possible for them to have a healthy relationship with an adult, but that it is extremely unlikely in a society totally unsuitable for such a relationship, and in a society where young people are generally very immature (eg USA).
he has concluded that such oppertunities cannot exist because the law must be set at a particular age, however he would like to see more research into what age is suitable for our ever-increasingly mature population"
NOTE: this post has been only a clarification or response to certain things. As far as I'm aware, I'm banned for multiple fuckups - NOT because other people dislike or misunderstand me. Now I'm gonna go read the thread.
On March 21 2007 11:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: it really seems like a huge amount of people have a misconception of what chibi actually thinks and feels.
I don't think they care how he thinks or feels. They care about how he portrayed himself and acted. Which is the only way they can judge him. On his own words and actions.
if you dont know how he really feels and what he really thinks you are judging him on assumptions you make which is kinda dumb
First off, nobody called him a rapist. They nailed it for what he was and you're taking it out of context. He's a forum member who's pushed some buttons, and broken rules he agreed to along with a multitude of other things that have already been addressed. No one said super dirty rapist omg ban him 4ever.
It's not assumptions. It's assertions based on how you portray yourself. A person can only judge you by your own words and actions. They aren't your therapist to ask you why you say the things you do. Through their own experiences in life they have come to understand people a bit anyway. It's quite simple, he was judged quite accurately by how he portrayed himself.
When I bragged a lot and spouted records and scores and always talked about myself in threads that weren't related I was being a self absorbed arrogant jackass. I was portraying myself as what I was. I was flamed and banned for being an annoying idiot. He was for the same reason but on a touchier subject.
On March 21 2007 09:39 Beyonder wrote: As for people calling me weak. Really, isn't this how it works. I work with these people and we have a policy. This is a very important subject for me: ethics, views, morals. If these folks dont share my views on such an important side, then I am not meant to 'work' as a moderator here. That's no problem for me. I just state the facts.
I don't care for Chibi's preferences at all and I barely know him as a person, but what I hear from Drone and this post of yours, it is disturbing that so much apparent personal bias goes into the decisions moderators make. Despite how you couch your statement, your essentially leveraging your importance to the community to impose your own views on the forum. You know no one really wants to jump out and say, "No we disagree with you, now leave this site.", so you your taking hostage of this fact to back yourself in this debate. This is just a disingenuous way of putting forth your earlier ultimatum in disguised form.
you dont even have the right to do that, you are just a visitor, i really wont get now why ppl bring in Mora and make Bey to the mad man here. IF you just gonna watch closer, there are more than one biased person on this page, in every position you want. Who is the worse person, the one that got banned more than 7 times or the one that does try to moderate a forum.
And it does not matter what he thinks and feels, it is what he post. Is it really needed to provoke this kind of discussions if you got already warned not to do ? Do you really say it was "quailtyposting"?
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
well, thats why I was kinda shock, because I though that was what happened
No offence, but please stay the hell away from any serious topic on TL from this point on. This incredible urge to scratch my eyes out and fry my brain after reading your posts cant be healthy.
I tried to type out something more constructive, but failed somewhere along the lines.
On March 21 2007 09:39 Beyonder wrote: As for people calling me weak. Really, isn't this how it works. I work with these people and we have a policy. This is a very important subject for me: ethics, views, morals. If these folks dont share my views on such an important side, then I am not meant to 'work' as a moderator here. That's no problem for me. I just state the facts.
I don't care for Chibi's preferences at all and I barely know him as a person, but what I hear from Drone and this post of yours, it is disturbing that so much apparent personal bias goes into the decisions moderators make. Despite how you couch your statement, your essentially leveraging your importance to the community to impose your own views on the forum. You know no one really wants to jump out and say, "No we disagree with you, now leave this site.", so you your taking hostage of this fact to back yourself in this debate. This is just a disingenuous way of putting forth your earlier ultimatum in disguised form.
you dont even have the right to do that, you are just a visitor, i really wont get now why ppl bring in Mora and make Bey to the mad man here. IF you just gonna watch closer, there are more than one biased person on this page, in every position you want. Who is the worse person, the one that got banned more than 7 times or the one that does try to moderate a forum.
And it does not matter what he thinks and feels, it is what he post. Is it really needed to provoke this kind of discussions if you got already warned not to do ? Do you really say it was "quailtyposting"?
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
well, thats why I was kinda shock, because I though that was what happened
No offence, but please stay the hell away from any serious topic on TL from this point on. This incredible urge to scratch my eyes out and fry my brain after reading your posts cant be healthy.
I tried to type out something more constructive, but failed somewhere along the lines.
On March 21 2007 09:56 mAKiTO wrote: He might of apologized, but he did it after he got flamed.
Nazgul, tell me that your opinion was not influenced after Beyonder said that he would leave if chibi stayed? I think it might have been logical to you to have Beyonder on the site instead of Chibi.
Not that it matters, but I dont believe you
If you think our mods let themselves be influenced by such a ridiculous ultimatum when basing decisions on moral matters then you're very fucking wrong about the whole way TL rolls. It had absolutely nothing to do with anyones motivation concerning whatever side they lean towards.
well, thats why I was kinda shock, because I though that was what happened
No offence, but please stay the hell away from any serious topic on TL from this point on. This incredible urge to scratch my eyes out and fry my brain after reading your posts cant be healthy.
I tried to type out something more constructive, but failed somewhere along the lines.
no offense, here is a dick you can suck on 8========D
Lol... wtf? How is that not intended to be "non-offensive"
On a side note...
I don't know if anyone else does but sometimes I'll see a stupid post by someone and I'll reference to the Team Liquid Gallery. I get a kick out of looking at what those people look like. Anyone else?
Eriador, you seem to have missed this. You were MIA on this forum for a while so you missed some Chibi gems perhaps.
Chibi[owns]
ok for bored pieces of shit , you answer the question above you but you have to elaborate, then ask another question. this is for interesting questions and interesting answers. for example
have you ever spent the night at a supermarket?
yes because we traveled to birmingham and realised we suddenly had no money for a bus to stoke on trent so got a taxi like 20 minutes to fucking ASDA to cashout but had no fucking money on our cards so spent the night in the freezing fucking cold trying to sleep in the lobby until the security guards kept coming and ushering us out, walked up and down a motorway for ages , tried to sleep in a bus shelter but it was colder than youd imagine and there were cops going past like every 5 minutes and i had half ounce of weed on me. fuck it sucked
(then ask a question)
knowing this girl is eleven, how much dick would you want to fit inside her before feeling morally rephrehensible?? =)
(He then went on to post pictures of an 11 year old in a bikini)
The thread was closed with this
Liquid`Nazgul
no 11 year old should ever have a dick inside her
comprende?
OR ANYWHERE NEAR HER FOR THAT MATTER.
That was a disgusting thread and very deserving of a perm ban yet all it got was a closed topic. Chibi was very lucky to only have 8 bans on his record. And that only includes when bans were recorded.
Dangerous? No one calls anyone on the internet who says their belief is dangerous. He was disgusting and vulgar at times for shock on a subject that is meant for extreme tact because many people feel very strongly against his position.
The main problem most of you have with chibi is that you look at his posts with the assumption that he's secretly trying to justify fucking ten year olds
That's a problem because you're dead wrong.
Testie, you don't understand Chibi's position in any of the posts he makes because you have a long list of assumptions about him that simply aren't true.
yes because every single post by every single forum user ever made is supposed to be taken 100% literally and seriously.
if one had chosen to actually read chibis posts over the years and not attempt to misinterpret him in a way that demonises him, one would realize he's harmless, and I knew what his stance on pedophelia was through reading his posts on tl.net, not through discussing lenghtly with him on msn or anything like that.
if you search you could find a post made by myself which contains nothing other than the word "nigger", which I thought was a fucking hilarious post while making it, and in context, I genuinely believe it was. out of context and disregarding all my other posts, it would be very very bannable. chibi made one single post (the one with all the girls) that could have been bannable by itself, but it got him temp banned. he's made several other posts that are, if taken seriously, offensive, but if you read all his posts and get familiar with the character I don't see how one could be.
I love how you take liberties with actual ages for the humour value which was already beaten to death. I also like how you do not take into account what is legal in both of our countries. I did nothing wrong, illegal, or even socially unacceptable from most countries point of view. Plus, i'm an amazing boyfriend.
The only people that can really make jokes about me is people from the USA. Anyway, back on topic.
For example: Anytime age of consent is brought up people will automatically assume that Chibi is all for it being low so that he can have sex with young girls at his present age. Chibi has repeatedly stated that he would not partake in a adult/child relationship but entertains the possibility that one may work, and debates age of consent based on the criteria he believes is required for a relationship, not how low he can get away with.
On March 21 2007 11:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because every single post by every single forum user ever made is supposed to be taken 100% literally and seriously.
if one had chosen to actually read chibis posts over the years and not attempt to misinterpret him in a way that demonises him, one would realize he's harmless, and I knew what his stance on pedophelia was through reading his posts on tl.net, not through discussing lenghtly with him on msn or anything like that.
if you search you could find a post made by myself which contains nothing other than the word "nigger", which I thought was a fucking hilarious post while making it, and in context, I genuinely believe it was. out of context and disregarding all my other posts, it would be very very bannable. chibi made one single post (the one with all the girls) that could have been bannable by itself, but it got him temp banned. he's made several other posts that are, if taken seriously, offensive, but if you read all his posts and get familiar with the character I don't see how one could be.
What do you guys think? That chibi realy thought that someone will post pics of his sister? I dont think so. If you are a guy who have never seen a post by chibi, such thread will be extremly offensive, but for people knowing chibi and the way he posts ,this thread is hilarious.
I think there are also valid questions about other offensive posts that just don't happen to offend the general TL demographic as much as joking about pedophilia apparently does. The N word gets used far, far too often (in one of these threads, which are blurring together for me at the moment, Rekrul used the N word several times), and to me is drastically more offensive when used lightly by white people than joking about having sex with 11 year old girls. Surely this deserves at least a warning.
Steve, it's not about understanding Chibi. I can understand his view point fine. The thing is, what he says is his viewpoint and what he has posted are two different things. It's not about understanding and accepting.
It's about how he was posting in an often vulgar manner.
The thread I linked was proof enough and not a first time thing for him and possibly not the worst of his remarks.
Edit: Bine, the N word isn't close to joking about having sex with 11 year olds. The N word is another matter that should have it's own thread if you feel it needs to be discussed.
On March 21 2007 11:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because every single post by every single forum user ever made is supposed to be taken 100% literally and seriously.
On March 21 2007 11:53 MYM.Testie wrote: Steve, it's not about understanding Chibi. I can understand his view point fine. The thing is, what he says is his viewpoint and what he has posted are two different things. It's not about understanding and accepting.
It's about how he was posting in an often vulgar manner.
The thread I linked was proof enough and not a first time thing for him and possibly not the worst of his remarks.
If you think his posts differ from his viewpoint you don't understand his posts or his viewpoint, this is a simple statement of fact.
He very rarely posted in a vulgar manner and when he did it was clearly a joke.
Posting that picture of the asian girl was also obviously a joke. A joke in poor taste but that's not exactly reason for a witch hunt.
On March 21 2007 11:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because every single post by every single forum user ever made is supposed to be taken 100% literally and seriously.
Steve, it is you who is obviously not understanding.
His viewpoint is very easy to get and understand.
It is simply the way he kept portraying himself and how he went about posting. You should not care if the post is or isn't different from his viewpoint. That is not what was being discussed here.
I've already said that he can illustrate his points well and keep to good posting quality. He chose not to in too many instances. The point is, he annoyed people. Derailed threads. Could go about posting in a vulgar, immature, childish, manner. In the end, you can't really argue with 8 bans. A joke? His jokes were in very, very poor taste about the wrong subject.
Imo: he lowers the quality of the forum. Not due to my own moral standpoints, but purely from a posting perspective.
No one wants to read about how much dick we can stuff in an 11 year old girl. If anyone else posted that as a newcomer, that'd be an insta ban. Because of who Chibi is and peoples misperceptions about him (that he & other people have created about him) he is especially one to not play into that and make such posts.
He could write about what he wants in far better ways than he chose to. Granted, given the anti-chibi attitude he got from a lot of people, there is some sympathy with his predicament. But, it's not like he didn't bring a lot of it upon himself. If the search function were more manner to me, I could post a lot more things that would have been insta-ban posts had someone newer to the site posted it.
On March 21 2007 12:08 MYM.Testie wrote: Steve, it is you who is obviously not understanding.
His viewpoint is very easy to get and understand.
It is simply the way he kept portraying himself and how he went about posting. You should not care if the post is or isn't different from his viewpoint. That is not what was being discussed here.
I've already said that he can illustrate his points well and keep to good posting quality. He chose not to in too many instances. The point is, he annoyed people. Derailed threads. Could go about posting in a vulgar, immature, childish, manner. In the end, you can't really argue with 8 bans. A joke? His jokes were in very, very poor taste about the wrong subject.
percieving his posts the way you do is something you yourself do
ive already said that chibi gives me the village idiot vibe and i'm not suggesting he be unbanned. you're reading into my posts too much as well.
this is what i've said and this is what i mean:
1) I don't like how Beyonder handled the situation
2) Chibi isnt the horrible monster a lot of you pretend he is, and there is no reason to think he was banned because of anything related to fucking children.
On March 21 2007 12:08 MYM.Testie wrote: Steve, it is you who is obviously not understanding.
His viewpoint is very easy to get and understand.
It is simply the way he kept portraying himself and how he went about posting. You should not care if the post is or isn't different from his viewpoint. That is not what was being discussed here.
I've already said that he can illustrate his points well and keep to good posting quality. He chose not to in too many instances. The point is, he annoyed people. Derailed threads. Could go about posting in a vulgar, immature, childish, manner. In the end, you can't really argue with 8 bans. A joke? His jokes were in very, very poor taste about the wrong subject.
percieving his posts the way you do is something you yourself do
ive already said that chibi gives me the village idiot vibe and i'm not suggesting he be unbanned. you're reading into my posts too much as well.
this is what i've said and this is what i mean:
1) I don't like how Beyonder handled the situation
2) Chibi isnt the horrible monster a lot of you pretend he is, and there is no reason to think he was banned because of anything related to fucking children.
When did I call him a monster? I said he was banned because of how he went about posting, and how he portrayed himself. Obviously his admitted attraction to younger people had something to do with it. I never called it the cause. It's part of the equation.
But he is morally reprehensible for making a post like, "how much dick can we fit into an 11year old". If you don't find that morally reprehensible, and find some humour in that it questions your own morality, or lack thereof.
And don't attempt to call me a knight in shining armor again or trying to come off as one. I am not. I'm stating a fact that a post like that simply is morally reprehensible and will invite backlash.
There is simply a line. People have a general idea of where it was. Chibi knew where it was. He chose to be like Stimey and bring up things we've already been over and beaten to death and post in an immature manner.
He even agreed to a set of rules which he couldn't abide by.
And yes, you can now say it's about Bey. But as the discussion to ban Chibi was there before Bey banned him... it was obvious he had broken the rules that were placed upon him.
I had not even discussed Bey as Nazgul already dealt with that & it was already done.
I don't agree or disagree with the ban, it makes no difference to me.
for the entirety of this thread you have insisted that chibi is a pedophile, and thats simply not true. at times he was willing to play the devil's advocate, and even then he didn't allude to having any attraction to young girls besides the normal physical attraction that any guy has for girls past a certain age.
its not just you, there are lots of people who will insist right now that chibi, given the chance and with no repercussions, would pursue a 12 year old girl. hopefully your viewpoint has changed now, but your earlier posts display the mentality i'm trying to address
On March 21 2007 11:53 MYM.Testie wrote: Edit: Bine, the N word isn't close to joking about having sex with 11 year olds. The N word is another matter that should have it's own thread if you feel it needs to be discussed.
Well i guess that's subjective opinion. To you, having sex with 11 year olds is a much bigger deal. To me, one is a relatively harmless outlet for someone with particular feelings while another is participatory in widely and overwhelmingly pervasive racism that negatively affects the lives of millions of real people. Some guy being perverted by himself and sometimes on an internet forum and then following it with usually intelligent discussions about pedophilia and anti-pedophilia hysteria is nothing to me compared to casually and unaplogetically perpetuating the use of the N word.
And it's definitely relevant in a discussion that partly hinges on appropriateness, ethics, offensiveness etc. I decidedly do NOT want to be the person starting big, dramatic threads about the N word and alienating myself from wide swaths of the community. Similarly, I don't want to become pigeon-holed by also calling into question the frequently anti-gay slurs abound here, for fear of being dubbed part of the annoying, ditsy and overly effeminate segment of the gay community that you sometimes refer to as representative.
I do think this was all a bit of an exaggeration. I was never really uber fond of the guy, but he never bothered me in the slightest. If you know the average character of his posts, you'd know there really wasn't anything to be afraid of.
The problem as I see it was that TL has such an influx of new people over the last few years. All they hear of chibi is the occasional "LOL HE"S A PEDO" joke in every thread in which one could make even the most reaching comparison between the subject and children. With the number of distasteful comments made about him, only one aspect of his character will be known to people. If all you hear about someone is "pedophile", you assume that's all he posts about. As a few people here have already pointed out, he's stated that he doesn't condone that actual behavior. But again, if all you ever hear about him is "lol pedo", it's easy to picture him as that creepy old guy hiding in the trees looking through your window.
On March 21 2007 12:18 MYM.Testie wrote: If you don't find that morally reprehensible, and find some humour in that it questions your own morality, or lack thereof.
I don't like this implication. I'm able to look past the vulgarity of it and have a chuckle because I have no interest in fucking 11 year olds.
This thread is huge and I'm not about to read through it but, I read the first post and I've seen him in threads. He doesn't ONLY talk about what he likes all the time. I don't think he should be banned just because of his views on issues.
On March 21 2007 12:32 MYM.Testie wrote: Where did I insist he was a pedophile?
That's not what I said.
its exactly what you're implying here
I do not know the age limit he's talked about but wasn't it him who posted the story of the 9-10 year old girl on the beach or some crazy shit? It was completely made up apparently but it went into detail.
But I do know the lowest age i've seen him talk about is 11. And it was really bad imo.
This is a copout sentence after this, but I believe my memory has seen him also retierate that some twelve and thirteen year olds are mentally and physically mature?
Unrelated but throwing it out there just because it popped to mind. Guys who say, "if there is grass on the field, play ball" have never had a good sense of humour.
you make this assertation but its incorrect:
Remember you'd open a thread and like 4 pages in you'd be like, "wtf it turned into another pedo thread?"
you call pedophilia "his view" here:
He feels it is necessary to bring up these points and challenge our society and try to convince others of his view.
you say he was judged accurately, but by reading his posts and ignoring the random retarded "lol pedo" running joke comments you can agree now that he's not like that, so he was judged inaccurately. Rather, he was assigned a stigma by a group of ignorant posters who chose to troll him according to that stigma with very little basis on which to do so. shown here:
he was judged quite accurately by how he portrayed himself
I'm glad you don't think he's a pedophile now, but it was your opinion of him earlier and it shows in your posts.
again i'm not disagreeing with you about the ban and i'm definitely not trying to single you out or tell you you're wrong, I'm just laying to rest this massive nonsense about "LOL CHIBI FUX LIL GURLZ", and talking to you because you're the only person who's actually taken time to respond.
Chibi rarely if ever posted just for 'shock value', posting a tasteless joke and posting "i wana fuck your little daughter" are not just different because chibi never did the latter.
Okay well I start rambling here and there as usual but you certainly get what you pay for. I HAVEN'T read the thread yet, and a lot of the below is simply pure and simple responses and explainations and clarifications. Whether you want to hear them or not, obviously some people are interested because otherwise they wouldn't have said all this shit in the first place.
a) I have never promoted paedophilia. I have discussed the possibility of younger people being capable of mature consent. I eventually concluded that the AoC must remain quite high and inflexible, for various obvious and less-obvious reasons, however also that I feel more research needs to be done into exactly what age it should be maintained at.
Just look at the states for example. Homosexuality, oral sex, intercourse.. ages of consent vary massively. I've seen countless posts on youtube and whatnot, referring to someone being a "disgusting pedo who should be locked up" for admiring someone 15 or 16. Sound familiar?
(If you don't understand, I was comparing those sort of people to the sort of people who find 15-16 year old girls attractive, but at the same time bash on people who like 12-13 year olds.)
b) Several times I told people to cut the crap with the pedo jokes and bs about me.
c) I have not posted anything illegal. I agree in hindsight my "do you find these girls attractive?" thread was in poor taste. I didn't have my own computer during those months and kinda rushed into it with the very limited time I had. I've explained before that I posted it only because it followed two other threads of the same theme ("do you find this woman hot?").
d) I'm seriously getting the impression that some people are reading "pedophilia" to mean "kiddie fucking". What the hell is wrong with you? Paedophilia is neither particularly uncommon nor is it usually a persons "sole" attraction. I like women as much as the next guy (not Mora). I just have this extra attraction towards youth. And it's not necessarily anything more than an initial visual attraction.
I'm sure a lot of paedophiles find young girls attractive visually, but wouldn't want to date one because they're annoying and loud and dumb, for example. And if someone _is_ attracted to a young persons personality, that isn't so damn creepy now is it? Someone might like immature people because he's pretty immature, playful, careless, himself. Someone might like them because he likes to have someone to teach, in the same way a parent or school teacher likes to teach. It's not a "justification" - it's simply an explaination. And it's not THAT creepy.
I do think it's unfortunate, and can present a danger, and can result in a lot of depression and strife for the poor guy or gal that has to deal with it. But something not within someone's control is never a question of morals. What you DO with these people, and what they do with themselves, is connected with morality.
But paedophiles are not child abusers. An attraction to kids is far from uncontrollable. If you have any sexual attraction that is uncontrollable I think you should seek help.
We're talking about someone who is inclined to argue - knowing that he may well be wrong - that some young people are capable of consent. What's the big fucking deal? I'm not talking about raping 8 year olds here.
e) As far as I'm aware I always use rationality to "justify" things. I don't say they're good but I do point out the reasons they occur, and the reasons they might be considered ok. I am always open-minded to people who respond in a similar manner, and I've expressed that I don't trust in my own opinion 100%, but that I do value it since I consider myself informed.
Which is a good thing, don't you think? I've spent a good few hours on a certain child modelling forum recently and have been discussing several things about the law and morality, and often explaining to people (paedophiles) why they are wrong to think what they do.
Simple examples: should child glamour modelling in any form be legal, since it is a "sexual activity"? If so, should it be controlled with a specific age of consent? What about beauty pageants? What about Dakota acting in that rape scene in her new movie? Does the fact that the movie has "artistic value" protect her from the potential abuse she might suffer in being involved in something sexual and disturbing? If she's having some special psychological evaluation applied to answer these questions, then can't the same be done for child models and the like?
Discussing these things and actively changing people's opinions for the better is kinda fun. It means a 19 year old might not go to jail for "molesting" his 14 year old girlfriend, and it means some poor 5 year old might not be dressed up in a bikini and made to pose erotically for some sick fucks to jack off over.
I'm gonna finish up with some responses to Testie and Incontrol coz they posted a fuckload of trolling lies and I wasn't able to respond and show people this before. I could respond to them much more, but won't.
"Second off, he continually brings it into threads that aren't related. Is homosexuality hereditary? Is this relevant?"
Yes it was.
"A good % of his posts tend to have the underlying quality of pushing his viewpoint on other people which has already been majorly rejected."
Well, I was involved in 4-5 debates about the subject. You can read them for yourself to see the content, tone and context of each of my posts. They are 12-19 pages long each so you've got some reading to do if you want to know the truth. I was talking to people who think "giving out condoms in schools is promoting paedophilia".
"People are trying to do what is right for their children, while his whole viewpoint takes away from that ignoring them."
What the fuck is my "whole viewpoint" anyway Testie? Do you know or are you making things up?
"Chibi's viewpoint condones it and finds it socially acceptable."
What viewpoint? What do I condone? If I've said something is socially acceptable then I must have been talking about a place where it is socially acceptable, by definition.
"finds it socially acceptable to sleep with a child"
???
"He can make all the excuses of, "if they are mentally grown and willing it should be alright. There are some very mature kids out there.""
Well, sure, that's the whole arguement for any AoC ruling. Shut the fuck up.
"For all we know his viewpoint is that of, "If I ever had a child sure, why not slip it into a kid that won't remember that i'm doing it. No harm done, and I get to experience it"."
Okay well now we've concluded that you have no idea what my viewpoint is, nor indeed know anything about me whatsoever, how about you stop posing defamatory trolls like this.
Regarding Incontrol:
Can't really be bothered with you. People should read all the giant pedo threads if they want to know what actually went on in them, as I've said before. I think the latest one started off about bestiality?
"Wasn't it like, litterally only a few months he made that thread that was completely saturated with young girls half nude and straddling sculpture penis' etc?"
I posted multiple half-nude girls? No? And the picture of sculpture penis wasn't posted by me afaik.
"He also asked "Who wouldnt stick their penis in that" in referance to an 11 year old girl."
Yeh, that was Saaya Irie, the young supermodel in Japan who has been posted about before because she has enormous breasts. What's your point? All that stuff was stupid and I got banned for it, as far as I can recall, months ago. Here's that thread:
LASTLY (omg), here is a brief summary of my "viewpoint". For those that didn't get it the first 600 times.
"chibi has made his views very clear in the past numerous times and does not condone relations with a child. he has concluded that some 13 year olds are able to consent, and that it is possible for them to have a healthy relationship with an adult, but that it is extremely unlikely in a society totally unsuitable for such a relationship, and in a society where young people are generally very immature (eg USA).
he has concluded that such oppertunities cannot exist because the law must be set at a particular age, however he would like to see more research into what age is suitable for our ever-increasingly mature population"
NOTE: this post has been only a clarification or response to certain things. As far as I'm aware, I'm banned for multiple fuckups - NOT because other people dislike or misunderstand me. Now I'm gonna go read the thread.
what a dangerous disgusting man this person is
doesnt seem dangerous or disgusting to me... i actually have no problem w/ the guy, from these replies he stated...seems like an intellectual being
Meh, no problemo. I think I was educated a bit on teh-chibi matter here. But I think it's fair to say he crossed some lines more than once and it's true the admins gave him a good amount of leniency that others would not have had.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
I haven't read the whole thread, but just started scanning down the front page and this pissed me off. How can you assert that he wasn't causing trouble? I swear to god, in every thread there would be some stupid post that wasn't funny from him, and his only personality trait was "pedo". And you also say that the reason he was perm banned was because Beyonder hates him. Didn't Manifesto just say that it was a mutual agreement between all most. Then you bring up the fact that he "has twice the post of the mods who banned him". Since when did post count grant you immunity to anything you say? Sure, a long time member who posts thoughtful ideas may be looked at and judged less harshly, but half of Chibi's posts were practically spam, adding nothing to the forums.
When I first joined this forums I almost left because in the one of the first threads I created Chibi decided to join in and mock me. When I responded to this he simply let out a long string of "fuck you bitch's" with a caps lock key missing. I thought to myself "wow I can't believe this guy is allowed to do this, these forums are kinda sucky..." and almost left.
I've still to be told exactly what line he crossed for this ban. I've been told it was the whole picture, not the particular topic but unless that topic (in which he presented himself maturely in the face of unwarranted flaming) was the reason then I don't see how the whole picture was any different after the topic. He'd been given a temp ban for his previous infraction, that had expired and he was posting perfectly reasonably. After one of his reasonable posts "the big picture" is now that he should be banned. Beyonder himself says that there was nothing wrong with the topic he got banned for. So exactly what he did wrong this time which had not already been covered by his previous temp ban is mysterious.
woot he was banned ;] lol i didn't know him but still after reading his stuff he seemed pretty retarded, I know i'm retarded but i do it on purpose because that's me irl i'm really not like this :O
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
I haven't read the whole thread, but just started scanning down the front page and this pissed me off. How can you assert that he wasn't causing trouble? I swear to god, in every thread there would be some stupid post that wasn't funny from him, and his only personality trait was "pedo".And you also say that the reason he was perm banned was because Beyonder hates him. Didn't Manifesto just say that it was a mutual agreement between all most. Then you bring up the fact that he "has twice the post of the mods who banned him". Since when did post count grant you immunity to anything you say? Sure, a long time member who posts thoughtful ideas may be looked at and judged less harshly, but half of Chibi's posts were practically spam, adding nothing to the forums.
When I first joined this forums I almost left because in the one of the first threads I created Chibi decided to join in and mock me. When I responded to this he simply let out a long string of "fuck you bitch's" with a caps lock key missing. I thought to myself "wow I can't believe this guy is allowed to do this, these forums are kinda sucky..." and almost left.
In my opinion? Good Riddance.
Green line - Chibi was a very good poster on average, some of the posts he's made were bad but overall he was a good poster. He's contributed a lot to many discussions, so your statement is invalid.
Red line - Some of the mods dislike Chibi a bunch because of what he's said. While I'm sure that the main reason he was banned was because of some of the posts he's made, I'm sure that some bias was in there (no offense), Mani said in the first post that they were human so bias is allowed.
Chibi was not a poor poster, he was a large part of the site but didn't understand that he needed to lay off on the pedo statements. Stop knocking him when you know very little about him.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
I haven't read the whole thread, but just started scanning down the front page and this pissed me off. How can you assert that he wasn't causing trouble? I swear to god, in every thread there would be some stupid post that wasn't funny from him, and his only personality trait was "pedo".And you also say that the reason he was perm banned was because Beyonder hates him. Didn't Manifesto just say that it was a mutual agreement between all most. Then you bring up the fact that he "has twice the post of the mods who banned him". Since when did post count grant you immunity to anything you say? Sure, a long time member who posts thoughtful ideas may be looked at and judged less harshly, but half of Chibi's posts were practically spam, adding nothing to the forums.
When I first joined this forums I almost left because in the one of the first threads I created Chibi decided to join in and mock me. When I responded to this he simply let out a long string of "fuck you bitch's" with a caps lock key missing. I thought to myself "wow I can't believe this guy is allowed to do this, these forums are kinda sucky..." and almost left.
In my opinion? Good Riddance.
Green line - Chibi was a very good poster on average, some of the posts he's made were bad but overall he was a good poster. He's contributed a lot to many discussions, so your statement is invalid.
Red line - Some of the mods dislike Chibi a bunch because of what he's said. While I'm sure that the main reason he was banned was because of some of the posts he's made, I'm sure that some bias was in there (no offense), Mani said in the first post that they were human so bias is allowed.
Chibi was not a poor poster, he was a large part of the site but didn't understand that he needed to lay off on the pedo statements. Stop knocking him when you know very little about him.
I've really only been here for less than two years, so I'll apoligize now for not keeping total records of what Chibi posted. I think that first time that he mocked me really did not bode well for the the rest of the time I saw Chibi on the forums, so I think that I have just been concentrating on his bad posts, because I sort of wanted to hate him after he had been such a jerk to me.
kwark, there was no further offense made after the temp bans had ended. almost my entire beef with chibi being banned lies herein ; it sets the precedence that moderators can, after temp banning, choose to permanently ban the same person without that person posting anything objectionable after returning, due to their own personal issues with that poster and justify it through saying "he should have been banned a long time ago".
Had 3 hours between finals, read this entire thread have some thoughts:
1. Ilvy, you are the mom of ToT. A brilliant contributor to the BW community and a (most of the time) nice poster here. But that nationalistic bs has to stop. Thinking the support for chibi is in anyway "american" or (even if that was the case) connected to being "ok" with pedophaelia or any other deviance is rediculous, ignorant and unbecomming of you. Additionally, the comments in this thread alone would suggest you have mishandled your nationalistic generalization of chibi's defense.
2. The Japanese age of consent issue is rediculous. It is hard to handle this subject without appearing to be a idealist who views themselves to be the judicator of supreme morals. That being said, many cultures have many sets of laws and norms that are completely discomforting or generally accepted as immoral. In China cars have the rightaway. If you get hit by a car, it is your fault. If 13 years olds can legally have sex in Japan, that does not suddenly disprove the arguement here. This is a multinational website which basis its morals and values on a set fabricated from imagination and a rough collection of what they think to be right. Siting AoC's from your home country or some other country does nothing. The bottom line is, the majority of the ruling staff here at TL.net find it wrong to be discussing young children sexually, time in and time again. I think a point people are missing out on, is not that he DID discuss pedophaelia, but that he continually made a point to bring it up in any thread even remotely similar to that topic OR he created threads on said matter. It wasnt like this was a one time deal, it wasnt like he didnt sidetrack threads for pages and pages NOT after a joke, or some kind of political debate, but rather: In defense of his sexual (visual) preference.
3. Another issue that seems to be ignored: Chibi was banned 8 times. Many many more were temp bans, ranging as high as 1 month in punishment. I am guessing these were not ALL for pedophaelia. How many times does a poster need to be banned before the site realizes they threaten the integrity of the site itself? If we continue to ban and unban chibi, for various offenses (let alone a repeated one) who the fuck are they (the mods) to ban anyone? Chibi was specifically warned, to NOT continually bring up his pedo obsession. Do they have a right to do that? YES it is their fucking site. Do I agree? Sure, it happens to be obstructive to my enjoyment on this site as well. Debating the issue from time to time is fine and ok, but continually seeing it sidetrack threads, pictures posted links etc.. completely unnecessary, and btw chibi: a disservice to your cause.
4. People need to stop bringing up Mora. He is an adult. He has sex with consenting adults. Why is consent valued? The same reason we don't allow mentally handicapped people to drive city busses. They are impaired, or at least disadvantaged in making decisions that weigh in the full matter. Does that mean there are people mentally handicapped, fully capable of driving a city bus? Sure, absolutely. Can a 14 year old girl consent to sex and possibly understand that, in all its entirety? Yes, numbers are against her but sure. Homosexuallity IS abnormal. It IS different from the norm. But the issue is, do both parties understand the activity. We don't look at two 14 year old children having sex the same way we do a 14 year old and a 20 year old having sex. Want to know why? Because the two children are assumed to not know what they are doing, not understand it, and thus be safer from consequences. When an adult has sex with an underaged child it is presumed only the adult fully realized what was being done. The child is thus vulnerable this creates dangers. There are exceptions to all of these scenarios and examples, fact of the matter lies: MOST of the time it is safer to establish laws that avoid a situation altogether in which the risk of extreme harm is vastly more likely to occur than not. If Mora's massive cock rips a mans asshole open they are more likely to get the proper medical attention and become informed on safer practices. If a grown man rips a little girls vagina wide open she is MORE likely to not know or understand what needs to be done. Additionally, she (as society is constructed) is more likely to not say anything because she understands sex at her age to be a "no-no" especially with the person who would be classified as an adult. I can go on, but I think it is pretty easy to see the numerous occassions in which it is far better to be "safe-than sorry."
5.Chibi for the most part was an excellent poster. He had more intelligence and whit in his little finger than 90% of tl.net. That being said, he was a weak individual. He knew something that was in contrast to most peoples comfort and continued to push anyways. He was punished by the administration and chose to ignore it, over 8 times (perm) and countless times temp. He is going to be missed for what he contributed. But remembered for what he obsessed over.
On March 21 2007 00:18 baal wrote: He isnt banned because he casued trouble, he didnt cause freaking trouble, it was because Beyonder and other hypocrits trying to impose their morals hated his guts since day one.
All you have to do is watch the last thead when beyonder decided to perm-ban him, an anti-chibi thread where you can clearly see how he hates him.
He also said some stupid bullshit like "you made this thread even gayer" when he made a point in a gay related thread.
Chibi has twice the post than the admins who wanted him banned, this fucking sucks and it shows a huge lack of judgement from any of you active red nicks and thats the reason why this forum suddnely took an awful shift to thousands of nobodies while the few people that mattered have left... now theres one tl.net personality gone too, good fucking job
I haven't read the whole thread, but just started scanning down the front page and this pissed me off. How can you assert that he wasn't causing trouble? I swear to god, in every thread there would be some stupid post that wasn't funny from him, and his only personality trait was "pedo".And you also say that the reason he was perm banned was because Beyonder hates him. Didn't Manifesto just say that it was a mutual agreement between all most. Then you bring up the fact that he "has twice the post of the mods who banned him". Since when did post count grant you immunity to anything you say? Sure, a long time member who posts thoughtful ideas may be looked at and judged less harshly, but half of Chibi's posts were practically spam, adding nothing to the forums.
When I first joined this forums I almost left because in the one of the first threads I created Chibi decided to join in and mock me. When I responded to this he simply let out a long string of "fuck you bitch's" with a caps lock key missing. I thought to myself "wow I can't believe this guy is allowed to do this, these forums are kinda sucky..." and almost left.
In my opinion? Good Riddance.
Green line - Chibi was a very good poster on average, some of the posts he's made were bad but overall he was a good poster. He's contributed a lot to many discussions, so your statement is invalid.
Red line - Some of the mods dislike Chibi a bunch because of what he's said. While I'm sure that the main reason he was banned was because of some of the posts he's made, I'm sure that some bias was in there (no offense), Mani said in the first post that they were human so bias is allowed.
Chibi was not a poor poster, he was a large part of the site but didn't understand that he needed to lay off on the pedo statements. Stop knocking him when you know very little about him.
I've really only been here for less than two years, so I'll apoligize now for not keeping total records of what Chibi posted. I think that first time that he mocked me really did not bode well for the the rest of the time I saw Chibi on the forums, so I think that I have just been concentrating on his bad posts, because I sort of wanted to hate him after he had been such a jerk to me.
I just got mad because it seemed that you were being overly aggressive/angry at him for a few posts.
to be completely honest about this whole situation 2 things i respect and enjoy chibi's posts more often than not
Beyonder is one of my favorite people on the forums.
So i can sympathize with both of them. But what occurs to me having spoken to Bey about it a few times, He's right. The fact that i can read Chibi's posts without being utterly disgusted is kind of intriguing. I came to my conclusion that we as a world live in a somewhat depraved society that we can see that as fine to talk about. So it's all about how you look at that, that will bring you to a peace about this ban one way or the other. My opinion.
On March 21 2007 00:12 ShinSa.NokCha wrote: whos chibi?
I like! Let's move on please.
I don't understand coming into a conversation where people are obviously passionate on both sides and injecting something so blithely dismissive No one is shutting down, the cogs of Team Liquid are not in jeapordy of ceasing their forward march, and this discussion is perfectly valid and, in fact, necessary.
Rules can be argued. Ethics discussed. Rules retracted or ignored by the "house owners." When we see division amongst those who issue the rules you just refer to, we see a discussion worth having.
And seriously, stoners ending a fucking conversation? That'll be a nice cool day in hell.
On March 21 2007 14:34 Mensrea wrote: All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It�s a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similiar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little girly-kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go � just like they�re used to doing at other sites. That attitude won�t work here. That�s a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 500 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who�ve consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that�s why they�re still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has 1000+ posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you�re at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that�s the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy�s been with us that long, chances are YOU�RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting � just move on.
however also from the "10 commandments"
and for the love of christ noone get on my back about the third paragraph. that wasnt the point.
however, despite who he was, lets all read the last one again.
Yeah, he had 8 previous bans and was told to avoid pedoism for awhile.
The quote the nice way of saying, we give preferential treatment. He definately did get it.
Anyways, I'd rather not be dragged into this. I just wanted to say I don't think everyone else should be so dramatic about it either. Chibi will be a martyr now. Yay for Chibi.
On March 21 2007 14:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: kwark, there was no further offense made after the temp bans had ended. almost my entire beef with chibi being banned lies herein ; it sets the precedence that moderators can, after temp banning, choose to permanently ban the same person without that person posting anything objectionable after returning, due to their own personal issues with that poster and justify it through saying "he should have been banned a long time ago".
Which was my point. That according to Bey he was banned for things that he'd already been temp banned for in the past. Which in itself was wrong. But it's also bullshit. Had that topic not come up and pissed Bey off he'd not have been banned. Bey banned him in the heat of the moment and then justified it off things that Chibi had already been disciplined for.
Whoever handed him a temp ban last time felt that a temp ban was the appropriate response. I have no idea why bey thinks it is his place to add a perm ban on for "the whole picture" after another mod has dealt with the issue.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
On March 21 2007 14:34 SuperJongMan wrote: Is it really neccesary? Whenever there are questions in TL.net about these things I still remember Mensrea's words..
"You are in our house, you follow our rules"
End.
You can't argue with that.
With all due respect this is a crock of shit, I can and will argue with this sort of attitude on these matters. Of course, no one is questioning who has the ultimate jurisdiction here, and no one is suggesting any usurpation of the staff's authority to ban or not ban users as they see fit. The questions being debated here absolutely do not pertain to that quote, as no one is talking about following or not following the rules. To pretend like this discussion that we are having amounts to someone clearly breaking an enforced rule and people refusing to accept it is to feign ignorance of the content of this thread.
Many, many smart people are posting differing opinions here, and even within the staff there appears to be a multifaceted set of large to slight differences of opinion. This is a community that is build around discussion. This kind of attempt to dismiss and cut off a conversation of this depth and importance is very aggravating! This conversation is absolutely necessary to clarifying administrative positions on difficult cases like these, to allow dissenting opinions to be heard and acknowledged by the staff, to educate newer forum users about some of the complicated dynamics that exist in places like this, and, hopefully, to get at larger issues of relationships, community, prejudice and fairness as they pertain to sites like ours.
If we all followed the point of view expressed by your posts, we should just silently swallow any and every decision made by administrators and dampen our native intellectual curiosity about how and why such decisions are made. This dialog is irreplaceable, please don't be dismissive of it.
edit: in light of the posts made in between the last ones i read before posting this and the ones posted before it, I feel the need to clarify that I hold no animosity toward you personally. I feel, though, like that attitude is fairly representative of a lot of the comments throughout this thread and the stimey one too. There's a sense that it's not worth talking about, and that just frustrates me to no end.
Hey all, I been lurking this forum for a few years and appreciate it very much. Thanks for the good work you guys, you know who you are! I must admit I never read Chibis post closely, they just dont interest me that much, but I did read this thread. I think its a weak response to perm ban a guy like that, it's way over the top. Just ban the dude for a couple of weeks, if he keeps up, ban again. Iterate - simple as that. That's my 1 post cents..
On March 21 2007 11:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because every single post by every single forum user ever made is supposed to be taken 100% literally and seriously.
if one had chosen to actually read chibis posts over the years and not attempt to misinterpret him in a way that demonises him, one would realize he's harmless, and I knew what his stance on pedophelia was through reading his posts on tl.net, not through discussing lenghtly with him on msn or anything like that.
if you search you could find a post made by myself which contains nothing other than the word "nigger", which I thought was a fucking hilarious post while making it, and in context, I genuinely believe it was. out of context and disregarding all my other posts, it would be very very bannable. chibi made one single post (the one with all the girls) that could have been bannable by itself, but it got him temp banned. he's made several other posts that are, if taken seriously, offensive, but if you read all his posts and get familiar with the character I don't see how one could be.
I mostly agree, but i think that sometimes he misjudged the consequences and did piss some people off (me included) even though they (and I) later came to get the joke. I think he mistakenly pushed it too far, but he was really just messing around, not a real troll like say 8882 or that Reason guy from the strategy forum.
I also talked to him on msn and he seemed like a pretty funny (in a weird kind of way) guy.
On March 21 2007 14:43 Mora wrote: chibi disboyed the rules and got banned.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
edit - i am a sad panda.
With your logic, if I'm not mistaken...
A guy is an outspoken racist and is very vocal about his views. Everyone excepts that racism is wrong. This guy continues to beat the shit out of you 8 times before being expelled from the school. Do you really think that when this guy gets expelled people are going to be chanting "racism racism" ?
This may be an online community but their should still be rules that should be followed. If you can't follow the rules, after being warned 8 TIMES (seriously why is this even a debate...this is fucking retarded) .. then you don't deserve to be here. And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?
Not all this pertains to just you, because you did justify that he got banned for breaking the rules.
On March 21 2007 14:43 Mora wrote: chibi disboyed the rules and got banned.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
edit - i am a sad panda.
With your logic, if I'm not mistaken...
A guy is an outspoken racist and is very vocal about his views. Everyone excepts that racism is wrong. This guy continues to beat the shit out of you 8 times before being expelled from the school. Do you really think that when this guy gets expelled people are going to be chanting "racism racism" ?
This may be an online community but their should still be rules that should be followed. If you can't follow the rules, after being warned 8 TIMES (seriously why is this even a debate...this is fucking retarded) .. then you don't deserve to be here. And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?
Not all this pertains to just you, because you did justify that he got banned for breaking the rules.
Shut the fuck up.
Fuck I hope you get banned you tool.
Your example is shit AND you know nothing about the poster, it seems that you fucking read the "banned 8 times" bolded part then posted.
On March 21 2007 14:43 Mora wrote: chibi disboyed the rules and got banned.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
edit - i am a sad panda.
With your logic, if I'm not mistaken...
A guy is an outspoken racist and is very vocal about his views. Everyone excepts that racism is wrong. This guy continues to beat the shit out of you 8 times before being expelled from the school. Do you really think that when this guy gets expelled people are going to be chanting "racism racism" ?
This may be an online community but their should still be rules that should be followed. If you can't follow the rules, after being warned 8 TIMES (seriously why is this even a debate...this is fucking retarded) .. then you don't deserve to be here. And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?
Not all this pertains to just you, because you did justify that he got banned for breaking the rules.
Not the case. There was no rulebreaking between the end of his last temp ban and his permanent ban. There was Beyonder getting pissed off with him and flaming him, there was Chibi responding maturely (only person to cite statistics in a thread full of opinions) and there was Beyonder banning him. But there was absolutely no rule breaking. Every rule he'd broken in the past he'd already served his time in Disneyland for.
On March 21 2007 14:49 Y3ahright wrote: Hey all, I been lurking this forum for a few years
Joined the same day you post, and you've been lurking for years? Why would a forum lurker feel the need to hide his other user name which can easily be switched and no one will notice because he's a forum lurker.
On March 21 2007 14:43 Mora wrote: chibi disboyed the rules and got banned.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
edit - i am a sad panda.
With your logic, if I'm not mistaken...
A guy is an outspoken racist and is very vocal about his views. Everyone excepts that racism is wrong. This guy continues to beat the shit out of you 8 times before being expelled from the school. Do you really think that when this guy gets expelled people are going to be chanting "racism racism" ?
This may be an online community but their should still be rules that should be followed. If you can't follow the rules, after being warned 8 TIMES (seriously why is this even a debate...this is fucking retarded) .. then you don't deserve to be here. And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?
Not all this pertains to just you, because you did justify that he got banned for breaking the rules.
Shut the fuck up.
Fuck I hope you get banned you tool.
Your example is shit AND you know nothing about the poster, it seems that you fucking read the "banned 8 times" bolded part then posted.
After belonging to this community for about 6 months I seriously hope I get banned to.
So what most of you are "good starcraft" people, almost half of you are complete assholes. Now this doesn't apply to any of the mods because I have never had any problems with them. In fact they are always kind and helping.
The same cannot be said for the rest of the community. All of you pricks with a high post count come in here and think that just because you have a large number next to your name that you can say whatever the hell you want. No I didn't just read the bolded 8 bans part. In fact I read almost the entire thread before it completely disgusted me.
I don't give a shit if one of the progamers is posting on team liquid..You should still show respect to people, especially the admins. If someone is asked not to talk about something, then you fuckin stop talking about it. I don't think its that hard of a concept to follow, but who knows.
On March 21 2007 14:43 Mora wrote: chibi disboyed the rules and got banned.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
edit - i am a sad panda.
With your logic, if I'm not mistaken...
A guy is an outspoken racist and is very vocal about his views. Everyone excepts that racism is wrong. This guy continues to beat the shit out of you 8 times before being expelled from the school. Do you really think that when this guy gets expelled people are going to be chanting "racism racism" ?
This may be an online community but their should still be rules that should be followed. If you can't follow the rules, after being warned 8 TIMES (seriously why is this even a debate...this is fucking retarded) .. then you don't deserve to be here. And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?
Not all this pertains to just you, because you did justify that he got banned for breaking the rules.
Shut the fuck up.
Fuck I hope you get banned you tool.
Your example is shit AND you know nothing about the poster, it seems that you fucking read the "banned 8 times" bolded part then posted.
After belonging to this community for about 6 months I seriously hope I get banned to.
So what most of you are "good starcraft" people, almost half of you are complete assholes. Now this doesn't apply to any of the mods because I have never had any problems with them. In fact they are always kind and helping.
The same cannot be said for the rest of the community. All of you pricks with a high post count come in here and think that just because you have a large number next to your name that you can say whatever the hell you want. No I didn't just read the bolded 8 bans part. In fact I read almost the entire thread before it completely disgusted me.
I don't give a shit if one of the progamers is posting on team liquid..You should still show respect to people, especially the admins. If someone is asked not to talk about something, then you fuckin stop talking about it. I don't think its that hard of a concept to follow, but who knows.
When did he mention your post count? I think people are reacting badly to your post not because you are new here but because it was poorly thought out. I think you are misguided on this issue, but that has nothing to do with your post count. We all had low post counts at one time.
Testie dude. I'm not hiding my username, it's Yeahright/east. You come of as very paranoid bro... and actually kinda squealing. Why are you so bitter ? It's obvoius you on your own misson vs chibi. If you have something to say why not adress what I wrote ?
On March 21 2007 14:43 Mora wrote: chibi disboyed the rules and got banned.
that's how it works and how it has always worked in the tl.net house. If you don't like it, leave (or get banned).
that being said, their reasons for banning him are fucking shitty. their morality is highly questionable, and quite frankly their ability to evaluate this situation is fucking disgusting.
for the first time in the history of tl.net i want to come to it less simply because i didnt agree with mods' decision.
if mensrea was here chibi would not have been banned.
edit - i am a sad panda.
With your logic, if I'm not mistaken...
A guy is an outspoken racist and is very vocal about his views. Everyone excepts that racism is wrong. This guy continues to beat the shit out of you 8 times before being expelled from the school. Do you really think that when this guy gets expelled people are going to be chanting "racism racism" ?
This may be an online community but their should still be rules that should be followed. If you can't follow the rules, after being warned 8 TIMES (seriously why is this even a debate...this is fucking retarded) .. then you don't deserve to be here. And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?
Not all this pertains to just you, because you did justify that he got banned for breaking the rules.
Not the case. There was no rulebreaking between the end of his last temp ban and his permanent ban. There was Beyonder getting pissed off with him and flaming him, there was Chibi responding maturely (only person to cite statistics in a thread full of opinions) and there was Beyonder banning him. But there was absolutely no rule breaking. Every rule he'd broken in the past he'd already served his time in Disneyland for.
Up untill the early 70's homosexuality was considered an illness. Just a thought.
Tollerenace and acceptance are 2 different things. Appearnenlty for some reason today we are no longer toleratant of chibi's pedo views. It was tollerated for several years but today we've decided it will no longer have a place in this community.
berated- why would you say this? : "And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?" ...you said so yourself, you have been here for 6 months. Why do you think your able to tell everyone here that chibi doesn't care about anyone? You don't even know him... -_-;;
On March 21 2007 15:13 Metal[x] wrote: berated- why would you say this? : "And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?" ...you said so yourself, you have been here for 6 months. Why do you think your able to tell everyone here that chibi doesn't care about anyone? You don't even know him... -_-;;
Because if chibi seriously cared about the community he was in, then he would do anything in his power to stay in it. Or is that another one of my clearly unthought out reasonings?
Edit: My figures are a little unclear. I have been reading the forums for about 4 yrs now, but only actively posting for 6 months.
On March 21 2007 15:13 Metal[x] wrote: berated- why would you say this? : "And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?" ...you said so yourself, you have been here for 6 months. Why do you think your able to tell everyone here that chibi doesn't care about anyone? You don't even know him... -_-;;
Because if chibi seriously cared about the community he was in, then he would do anything in his power to stay in it. Or is that another one of my clearly unthought out reasonings?
Hence his long, intense responses to the allegations against him? It's not like he was banned 8 times for exactly the same thing and he just did it again and after that they banned him. Since his last temp ban, no one has been able to really show a trigger for permanently banning him. Who's to say he wasn't trying? Also, when there's a point of contention, sometimes people can both love a community and want to stay while refusing to back down on a certain point. I don't know the circumstances surrounding all of his bans, but the fact that he has been banned a bunch of times doesn't in and of itself prove anything. Regardless, after the seventh time, he was still allowed to come back. Why wasn't a line drawn there that is being drawn now? I'm not claiming to have any answers, as I probably have a comparable amount of information on the matter as you. But your reasoning is, nevertheless, thin.
@bErAtEd- I also think that your comparison between the real-life and internet forum was kind of bad. Examples always change the real situation, but therefor help to understand the situation better. In this case I just had a real bad feeling, with your post, because it seems to me like really changing the facts alot.
On March 21 2007 15:13 Metal[x] wrote: berated- why would you say this? : "And in my honest opinion, chibi doesn't give a fuck about anyone here because he couldn't change his actions to stay in the community. So why then do you care so much about him?" ...you said so yourself, you have been here for 6 months. Why do you think your able to tell everyone here that chibi doesn't care about anyone? You don't even know him... -_-;;
Because if chibi seriously cared about the community he was in, then he would do anything in his power to stay in it. Or is that another one of my clearly unthought out reasonings?
Hence his long, intense responses to the allegations against him? It's not like he was banned 8 times for exactly the same thing and he just did it again and after that they banned him. Since his last temp ban, no one has been able to really show a trigger for permanently banning him. Who's to say he wasn't trying? Also, when there's a point of contention, sometimes people can both love a community and want to stay while refusing to back down on a certain point. I don't know the circumstances surrounding all of his bans, but the fact that he has been banned a bunch of times doesn't in and of itself prove anything. Regardless, after the seventh time, he was still allowed to come back. Why wasn't a line drawn there that is being drawn now? I'm not claiming to have any answers, as I probably have a comparable amount of information on the matter as you. But your reasoning is, nevertheless, thin.
I don't doubt this and I thank you for not immediately flaming me...
However I do believe that one can still be mature and stay within the bounds of what it socially acceptable while continuing to argue their point.
On March 21 2007 14:14 {88}iNcontroL wrote: 4. People need to stop bringing up Mora. He is an adult. He has sex with consenting adults. Why is consent valued? The same reason we don't allow mentally handicapped people to drive city busses. They are impaired, or at least disadvantaged in making decisions that weigh in the full matter. Does that mean there are people mentally handicapped, fully capable of driving a city bus? Sure, absolutely. Can a 14 year old girl consent to sex and possibly understand that, in all its entirety? Yes, numbers are against her but sure. Homosexuallity IS abnormal. It IS different from the norm. But the issue is, do both parties understand the activity. We don't look at two 14 year old children having sex the same way we do a 14 year old and a 20 year old having sex. Want to know why? Because the two children are assumed to not know what they are doing, not understand it, and thus be safer from consequences. When an adult has sex with an underaged child it is presumed only the adult fully realized what was being done. The child is thus vulnerable this creates dangers. There are exceptions to all of these scenarios and examples, fact of the matter lies: MOST of the time it is safer to establish laws that avoid a situation altogether in which the risk of extreme harm is vastly more likely to occur than not. If Mora's massive cock rips a mans asshole open they are more likely to get the proper medical attention and become informed on safer practices. If a grown man rips a little girls vagina wide open she is MORE likely to not know or understand what needs to be done. Additionally, she (as society is constructed) is more likely to not say anything because she understands sex at her age to be a "no-no" especially with the person who would be classified as an adult. I can go on, but I think it is pretty easy to see the numerous occassions in which it is far better to be "safe-than sorry."
Consent has nothing to do with why i brought up Mora
On March 21 2007 15:21 Metal[x] wrote: You still don't know him... Plus, he didn't do anything wrong after his last temp ban.
In all fairness of how a forum works, I don't believe that that decision is one that can be made by either you or I
It wasn't a decision made by us, but it was brought to the community to be discussed which is what we are doing, in an intelligent way. Your post wasn't that way, you started bming a contributing member of both communities (LP.net and TL.net).
It's been over 50 minutes Testie, and I'm kinda wondering why you are afk just right now. Is it your policy to insult and insinuate vs new users and then go afk ?
In lieu of the recent events DeadVessel you get your wish.
Ban or not this will be my last post on this forum and last day in this community.
I don't care if people don't like my analysis of the situation or think that real life situations change what happens on an internet forum. In both situations one must simply ask themselves when enough is enough.
The admins felt that they have had enough and now many of you are choosing to challenge it. Does the community complain every time that a person with a low post count who starts threads that many people think is stupid gets banned? Do people complain when someone is in here yelling homophobic comments and gets banned. Do all of you fight so passionally then?
The politics on this forum far outweigh any benefits that might come along with posting on it. I was very excited when I found people to share my joy with the professional starcraft scene with. And now I see that in many ways this is no different than high school. Favorites are played and groups and clicks are formed.
I have tried on numerous occasions to socialize with many of the people on this forum. In fact DeadVessel you and I had a chat in the IRC channel a couple days ago about some dead singer that I had never heard of. This forum is not very accepting of new comers which is a real shame because you have such a wonderful thing going here.
On March 21 2007 15:43 Y3ahright wrote: It's been over 50 minutes Testie, and I'm kinda wondering why you are afk just right now. Is it your policy to insult and insinuate vs new users and then go afk ?
people have lives, check back on the thread later.
On March 21 2007 15:45 bErAtEd- wrote: In lieu of the recent events DeadVessel you get your wish.
Ban or not this will be my last post on this forum and last day in this community.
I don't care if people don't like my analysis of the situation or think that real life situations change what happens on an internet forum. In both situations one must simply ask themselves when enough is enough.
The admins felt that they have had enough and now many of you are choosing to challenge it. Does the community complain every time that a person with a low post count who starts threads that many people think is stupid gets banned? Do people complain when someone is in here yelling homophobic comments and gets banned. Do all of you fight so passionally then?
The politics on this forum far outweigh any benefits that might come along with posting on it. I was very excited when I found people to share my joy with the professional starcraft scene with. And now I see that in many ways this is no different than high school. Favorites are played and groups and clicks are formed.
I have tried on numerous occasions to socialize with many of the people on this forum. In fact DeadVessel you and I had a chat in the IRC channel a couple days ago about some dead singer that I had never heard of. This forum is not very accepting of new comers which is a real shame because you have such a wonderful thing going here.
be calm
chibi was well-liked by a bunch of people here and when he was banned they wanted to know why, so this thread was promised. now its here, so now we talk about it.
this isn't some all-encompassing thing on TL, its just... whats happening at this moment
On March 21 2007 15:51 Vin[MBL] wrote: Although I agree that he should have been banned for threads like "Post pics of your sister!", it still is sad to see an old timer like him go away.
On March 21 2007 15:45 bErAtEd- wrote: In lieu of the recent events DeadVessel you get your wish.
Ban or not this will be my last post on this forum and last day in this community.
I don't care if people don't like my analysis of the situation or think that real life situations change what happens on an internet forum. In both situations one must simply ask themselves when enough is enough.
The admins felt that they have had enough and now many of you are choosing to challenge it. Does the community complain every time that a person with a low post count who starts threads that many people think is stupid gets banned? Do people complain when someone is in here yelling homophobic comments and gets banned. Do all of you fight so passionally then?
The politics on this forum far outweigh any benefits that might come along with posting on it. I was very excited when I found people to share my joy with the professional starcraft scene with. And now I see that in many ways this is no different than high school. Favorites are played and groups and clicks are formed.
I have tried on numerous occasions to socialize with many of the people on this forum. In fact DeadVessel you and I had a chat in the IRC channel a couple days ago about some dead singer that I had never heard of. This forum is not very accepting of new comers which is a real shame because you have such a wonderful thing going here.
I really don't know what to say. No one said anything about your post count, and no one since deadvessel's first post has suggested you leave. Just stick around, if you want to, and try to contribute where you can and learn from times when you are greeted coldly. I don't think you deserve a ban, but you should be less self assured when you have less information than most in a very, very, very sensitive conversation.
On March 21 2007 15:45 bErAtEd- wrote: In lieu of the recent events DeadVessel you get your wish.
Ban or not this will be my last post on this forum and last day in this community.
I don't care if people don't like my analysis of the situation or think that real life situations change what happens on an internet forum. In both situations one must simply ask themselves when enough is enough.
The admins felt that they have had enough and now many of you are choosing to challenge it. Does the community complain every time that a person with a low post count who starts threads that many people think is stupid gets banned? Do people complain when someone is in here yelling homophobic comments and gets banned. Do all of you fight so passionally then?
The politics on this forum far outweigh any benefits that might come along with posting on it. I was very excited when I found people to share my joy with the professional starcraft scene with. And now I see that in many ways this is no different than high school. Favorites are played and groups and clicks are formed.
I have tried on numerous occasions to socialize with many of the people on this forum. In fact DeadVessel you and I had a chat in the IRC channel a couple days ago about some dead singer that I had never heard of. This forum is not very accepting of new comers which is a real shame because you have such a wonderful thing going here.
Hm, saying you should be banned was a little rude on my part, you should not leave the site maybe think a little more when you post. I got reacted the way I did because I know Chibi (msn, etc.) while not as much as some others, I know he is a good person (excluding his sexual preferences). I think you leaving the community is a little over the top and I should've been more thoughtful with my post. It's up to you though.
On March 21 2007 15:52 Y3ahright wrote: Look at his post count until now. You'll now what I mean
A post takes about 1-5 minutes to make, on average. Testie averages 9.72 posts a day, so let's say he spends about an hour on TL.net each day. Might be me though.
On March 21 2007 16:02 Y3ahright wrote: Testiebaby I'm waiting for you .....Your so fast on the keyboard...
Dude check back in like 6 hours. It's totally crazy to wait for one person to respond to you in one thread on a message board. If I were testie I would just ignore you. He doesn't have a responsibility to answer you.
On March 21 2007 15:55 Jathin wrote: I for one do not give a shit.
Best post of the topic?
No. If he doesn't give a shit he can stay out of the topic. That was just mindless spam.
No it was his opinion on the subject, Not giving a shit is a legitimate opinion.
And i share it too
It's a contribution you can make by avoiding the topic instead of just disrupting the discussion of those who do care. If you want to argue that you genuinely care about not caring then go ahead and I'll just give up. But you'd be lying. If you want to argue that this is a redundant discussion, go ahead, make your case. If you want to convince me not to care, give some valid arguments. Just saying I don't care serves absolutely nobody, adds nothing to the debate, doesn't interest anybody and is as relevant to the issue as saying what you had for breakfast.
On March 21 2007 15:55 Jathin wrote: I for one do not give a shit.
Best post of the topic?
No. If he doesn't give a shit he can stay out of the topic. That was just mindless spam.
No it was his opinion on the subject, Not giving a shit is a legitimate opinion.
And i share it too
It's a contribution you can make by avoiding the topic instead of just disrupting the discussion of those who do care. If you want to argue that you genuinely care about not caring then go ahead and I'll just give up. But you'd be lying. If you want to argue that this is a redundant discussion, go ahead, make your case. If you want to convince me not to care, give some valid arguments. Just saying I don't care serves absolutely nobody, adds nothing to the debate, doesn't interest anybody and is as relevant to the issue as saying what you had for breakfast.
On March 21 2007 15:55 Jathin wrote: I for one do not give a shit.
Best post of the topic?
No. If he doesn't give a shit he can stay out of the topic. That was just mindless spam.
No it was his opinion on the subject, Not giving a shit is a legitimate opinion.
And i share it too
It's a contribution you can make by avoiding the topic instead of just disrupting the discussion of those who do care. If you want to argue that you genuinely care about not caring then go ahead and I'll just give up. But you'd be lying. If you want to argue that this is a redundant discussion, go ahead, make your case. If you want to convince me not to care, give some valid arguments. Just saying I don't care serves absolutely nobody, adds nothing to the debate, doesn't interest anybody and is as relevant to the issue as saying what you had for breakfast.
On March 21 2007 15:55 Jathin wrote: I for one do not give a shit.
Best post of the topic?
No. If he doesn't give a shit he can stay out of the topic. That was just mindless spam.
If it was mindless spam, you're right, I wouldn't have said anything. My point is this: He was banned, who gives a fuck. This isn't to say I shouldn't post; I most definitely should, because I do indeed hold an opinion on the matter. I don't give a shit, and I think everyone is blowing this out of proportion.
Then say "I think everyone is blowing this out of proportion". That'd be a valid contribution. I could go into 3/4 of threads and say "I don't give a shit" because I don't give a shit.
On March 21 2007 16:36 Y3ahright wrote: Tifanny: I need ban why ?
Because you're behaving like an immature, attention-seeking little brat. Take a step back and realize that no one really cares whether Testie is responding to you or not, and that you're just being annoying with your incessant little posts. I know 5 year olds who are less immature.
P.S. I am quite close to tempbanning you for this, so stop.
wow. I didn't read in the general forum enough to really know Chibi all that well, but I knew he was known for his pedo-characteristics. But I thought that was all just a joke, I didn't know he openly admitted being a pedophile.
On March 21 2007 16:47 Live2Win wrote: wow. I didn't read in the general forum enough to really know Chibi all that well, but I knew he was known for his pedo-characteristics. But I thought that was all just a joke, I didn't know he openly admitted being a pedophile.
On March 21 2007 16:47 Live2Win wrote: wow. I didn't read in the general forum enough to really know Chibi all that well, but I knew he was known for his pedo-characteristics. But I thought that was all just a joke, I didn't know he openly admitted being a pedophile.
On March 21 2007 16:47 Live2Win wrote: wow. I didn't read in the general forum enough to really know Chibi all that well, but I knew he was known for his pedo-characteristics. But I thought that was all just a joke, I didn't know he openly admitted being a pedophile.
I don't think he said he had ever done anything, but he admitted his attraction.
I believe he said on multiple occasions that he would never do anything with someone who didn't consent and was incapable of making mature decisions. And that he'd have absolutely no attraction to someone who acted immaturely. So as far as I understand it, he likes mature acting girls with small tits. I doubt anyone would favour a blanket age of consent over an individual mental maturity based system but we agree that for practical reasons an assessment of when each individual is ready to make the decision to have sex is impossible. Most of what Chibi has said is that some people below the age of consent are mature enough to have sex, which I'd agree with. Just as you get some people over the age who act extremely immaturely.
"a) I have never promoted paedophilia. I have discussed the possibility of younger people being capable of mature consent. I eventually concluded that the AoC must remain quite high and inflexible, for various obvious and less-obvious reasons, however also that I feel more research needs to be done into exactly what age it should be maintained at."
This is the first paragraph of chibi's writings that were posted in this thread.
20 pages in a day...? This breaks Adam's record I think. I didn't notice chibi much, just knew he was a pedo-sympathizer who posted inane bullshit to defend them, never knew he was a self-proclaimed pedophile. I'm somewhat glad he's banned.
On March 21 2007 17:04 Drowsy wrote: 20 pages in a day...? This breaks Adam's record I think. I didn't notice chibi much, just knew he was a pedo-sympathizer who posted inane bullshit to defend them, never knew he was a self-proclaimed pedophile. I'm somewhat glad he's banned.
For the record, beyonder's ban of chibi may have been an act based on emotion, but it was still based on what he believes is best for this forum, not what he personally wants. They just happen to be the same thing.
As to the actual discussion at hand, a few things I'd like to point out.
1. The most recent situation started when a few members posted in the Feedback Forum complaining about how Chibi kept sidetracking threads with his pedophilia-related posts. Beyonder and Chibi did have an argument in a thread in which Beyonder behaved less than ideally, but that was not what started the discussion that ultimately led to the ban.
2. Beyonder banned Chibi in the midst of our discussion of what to do with him since he seemed to be unable to stay out of trouble and because other forum members were complaining. Not only that, but quite a few staff members also disapproved of the continued leniency that Chibi kept receiving. We all disapproved of Bey's action and told him so, and we proceeded to continue the discussion as to whether Chibi should be banned as a result of the continued problems that seemed to be constantly coming up with him. It was NOT a decision as to whether we should unban Chibi, and it remained a decision on whether he should be banned because of the headache he was.
3. There is no clear cut answer as to why Chibi was banned because different staff members had different reasons for wanting him gone. For some it was simply his association with pedophilia that he could not seem to let go of, for others it was his general behavior, and for the rest it was just because we had had serious discussions regarding Chibi multiple times in the past and enough was enough.
4. Whether Chibi is a pedophile or not, whether he actually condones pedophilia or not, etc., should not be seen as too big an issue. The bottom line was that he talked about it and brought it up enough and in a such a way that it caused problems on the site. Staff and general members were unhappy about it, and he just wouldn't let it go. As a result, we requested that he not bring it up anymore because of all the trouble that came along with it and he agreed to refrain. Please keep that fact in mind. He was causing trouble with his posts (regardless of whether it was pedophilia or just causing trouble in general), we got complaints, we discussed options and decided not to ban him and instead asked him to adjust his posting, and he agreed. Period. End of story. Let there be no more arguments discussing whether or not Chibi should have been banned or whether there was good reason to do so.
5. As to HOW he was banned, there is obviously a lot to question. Let me just say these few things in regards to how it actually happened. As Eri said, it is questionable to ban someone for offenses they committed in the past, but Chibi really had pushed most of the staff past the limits of their patience. The only reason why Chibi hadn't already been banned was because some of the staff just didn't care enough to ban him and thus went with the opinion of those who did feel strongly (like travis and Eri) to forgive and forget, and because we were assured that the things he was doing to cause trouble were going to stop. Notice that even though Bey had strong feelings about having Chibi banned in the past, we still decided to keep him around.
The effect of all this was that Chibi was effectively on probation. He was walking on thin ice and knew it. He had tested our patience and finally hit the end of it. We had been ever so close to permanently banning him, but had relented at the last moment because of his status as a regular and because of a few supporters amongst the staff. All he had to do was refrain from discussing anything pedophilia-related and stop causing trouble. Sure this would limit his effectiveness as a TL.net "character", but that was the price he had to pay to stay around because of all the shit he continually stirred up. And again, he AGREED to it.
Unfortunately, he was unable to refrain from bringing it up from time to time afterwards. True, it was in a less obvious and confrontational manner, but his agreement had been to avoid the topic at all costs. The staff was just not willing to deal with all the trouble that came along with him expressing his views on that topic anymore, no matter how well he presented them. He had become more trouble than he was worth. Finally, complaints were made by members (not Bey) and I brought it to the attention of the rest of the staff because I'm rather inactive and wanted others who had more knowledge in the matter involved. In the ensuing discussion most of the staff became involved and we started seriously discussing Chibi's behavior and posting. A lot of the staff didn't realize just how much trouble he had already caused, and upon learning of it, decided that a ban was appropriate after he had been given so many chances. Eventually, enough of the staff agreed that we were not willing to allow Chibi to continue to cause trouble on the site just so he could continue to express himself in the way he wanted.
6. Chibi is free to express his views on pedophilia anywhere else on the web. He has stated that he has found other forums which are actually geared towards pedophilia and has had some good discussions there amongst people who are interested in discussing such things and actually go to those specific forums to discuss such issues. TL.net is not one of those sites, and most of the staff does not approve of pedophilia being discussed on the forums. Is this something that we feel should be true for the whole world? No. This is just a decision for this particular forum. I don't think we demanded very much from Chibi, all he had to do was exercise some self control and refrain from discussing a very particular topic. He had other places he could discuss it, he could even discuss it privately with members if he wanted via PM, IRC or MSN, all he had to do was stop posting about it in the general forums. He CHOSE not to do so, and so he CHOSE to be banned. If you choose to stick your hand into fire, you are choosing to get burned.
On March 21 2007 17:04 Drowsy wrote: 20 pages in a day...? This breaks Adam's record I think. I didn't notice chibi much, just knew he was a pedo-sympathizer who posted inane bullshit to defend them, never knew he was a self-proclaimed pedophile. I'm somewhat glad he's banned.
On March 21 2007 17:19 XaI)CyRiC wrote: As to the actual discussion at hand, a few things I'd like to point out.
1. The most recent situation started when a few members posted in the Feedback Forum complaining about how Chibi kept sidetracking threads with his pedophilia-related posts. Beyonder and Chibi did have an argument in a thread in which Beyonder behaved less than ideally, but that was not what started the discussion that ultimately led to the ban.
2. Beyonder banned Chibi in the midst of our discussion of what to do with him since he seemed to be unable to stay out of trouble and because other forum members were complaining. Not only that, but quite a few staff members also disapproved of the continued leniency that Chibi kept receiving. We all disapproved of Bey's action and told him so, and we proceeded to continue the discussion as to whether Chibi should be banned as a result of the continued problems that seemed to be constantly coming up with him. It was NOT a decision as to whether we should unban Chibi, and it remained a decision on whether he should be banned because of the headache he was.
3. There is no clear cut answer as to why Chibi was banned because different staff members had different reasons for wanting him gone. For some it was simply his association with pedophilia that he could not seem to let go of, for others it was his general behavior, and for the rest it was just because we had had serious discussions regarding Chibi multiple times in the past and enough was enough.
4. Whether Chibi is a pedophile or not, whether he actually condones pedophilia or not, etc., should not be seen as too big an issue. The bottom line was that he talked about it and brought it up enough and in a such a way that it caused problems on the site. Staff and general members were unhappy about it, and he just wouldn't let it go. As a result, we requested that he not bring it up anymore because of all the trouble that came along with it and he agreed to refrain. Please keep that fact in mind. He was causing trouble with his posts (regardless of whether it was pedophilia or just causing trouble in general), we got complaints, we discussed options and decided not to ban him and instead asked him to adjust his posting, and he agreed. Period. End of story. Let there be no more arguments discussing whether or not Chibi should have been banned or whether there was good reason to do so.
5. As to HOW he was banned, there is obviously a lot to question. Let me just say these few things in regards to how it actually happened. As Eri said, it is questionable to ban someone for offenses they committed in the past, but Chibi really had pushed most of the staff past the limits of their patience. The only reason why Chibi hadn't already been banned was because some of the staff just didn't care enough to ban him and thus went with the opinion of those who did feel strongly (like travis and Eri) to forgive and forget, and because we were assured that the things he was doing to cause trouble were going to stop. Notice that even though Bey had strong feelings about having Chibi banned in the past, we still decided to keep him around.
The effect of all this was that Chibi was effectively on probation. He was walking on thin ice and knew it. He had tested our patience and finally hit the end of it. We had been ever so close to permanently banning him, but had relented at the last moment because of his status as a regular and because of a few supporters amongst the staff. All he had to do was refrain from discussing anything pedophilia-related and stop causing trouble. Sure this would limit his effectiveness as a TL.net "character", but that was the price he had to pay to stay around because of all the shit he continually stirred up. And again, he AGREED to it.
Unfortunately, he was unable to refrain from bringing it up from time to time afterwards. True, it was in a less obvious and confrontational manner, but his agreement had been to avoid the topic at all costs. The staff was just not willing to deal with all the trouble that came along with him expressing his views on that topic anymore, no matter how well he presented them. He had become more trouble than he was worth. Finally, complaints were made by members (not Bey) and I brought it to the attention of the rest of the staff because I'm rather inactive and wanted others who had more knowledge in the matter involved. In the ensuing discussion most of the staff became involved and we started seriously discussing Chibi's behavior and posting. A lot of the staff didn't realize just how much trouble he had already caused, and upon learning of it, decided that a ban was appropriate after he had been given so many chances. Eventually, enough of the staff agreed that we were not willing to allow Chibi to continue to cause trouble on the site just so he could continue to express himself in the way he wanted.
6. Chibi is free to express his views on pedophilia anywhere else on the web. He has stated that he has found other forums which are actually geared towards pedophilia and has had some good discussions there amongst people who are interested in discussing such things and actually go to those specific forums to discuss such issues. TL.net is not one of those sites, and most of the staff does not approve of pedophilia being discussed on the forums. Is this something that we feel should be true for the whole world? No. This is just a decision for this particular forum. I don't think we demanded very much from Chibi, all he had to do was exercise some self control and refrain from discussing a very particular topic. He had other places he could discuss it, he could even discuss it privately with members if he wanted via PM, IRC or MSN, all he had to do was stop posting about it in the general forums. He CHOSE not to do so, and so he CHOSE to be banned. If you choose to stick your hand into fire, you are choosing to get burned.
I guess it comes down to whether you believe that in posting regarding pedophilia he crossed the line. Subjectively, given the mature and reasonable way he posted in a non confrontational manner with cited statistics I believe he didn't. Objectively, the line was crossed.
I think you'd have trouble arguing that in that topic he acted in a way that meritted a ban. Beyonder himself said that what Chibi said in that topic wasn't banworthy. He broke a rule which applied to no-one else and in a perfectly reasonable manner. But yes, he broke a rule. A rule which was given to him for past misconduct.
I've spent most the evening arguing on this topic but CyRiC's post has essentially answered me. If I were a mod I'd have let him slide on this one given that the rule was created to prevent any of the "post hot sisters" threads or flaming about pedophilia. I've always believed that it is the intentions of the lawmaker that should be used when upholding law, not the precise word of it. But that is my belief and the mods clearly disagree. He broke the word of the rule given to him, despite staying well away from the topics that rule was created to avoid, and indeed posting much more maturely than his peers. It's a pity to see a decent member banned for such a trivial thing.
On March 21 2007 17:26 Postmaster Bannon wrote: More than anything Chibi was just another anime faggot who took his gimmick too far. I don't think he poses any real threat to young girls because much like other anime faggots they tend not to ever leave their houses.
It's not ok to talk like this about a person just because he's banned. It's not even true anyway, since Chibi had thousands of posts and only a fraction of them were related to this "gimmick", if it even was a gimmick. As the original post made clear, what he was "more than anything" was a trouble maker seeing as how he could never straighten out his act despite direct and repeated warnings.
On March 21 2007 17:26 Postmaster Bannon wrote:[Moderators] don't seem to enjoy themselves anymore and seem to project their apathy/anger onto everyone else.
Look to your first paragraph. You certainly use unnecessary and unwarranted anger. I imagine you'll say "but I'm not a moderator so I can let such things slip" but such an argument is just weakness on your part. And don't even try to say "but moderators did it first and I'm just a product of their examples". Please...
On March 21 2007 17:26 Postmaster Bannon wrote:my opinion as the Postmaster and as a guy who is generally awesome at the internet is to make some sort of anything goes subforum (with some rules obv) to funnel both the shitty posts and let people blow off some steam or just have some fucking fun when they post for once.
I've already made this suggestion to the moderators and I'm sure someone had already thought of it before me. Their answer is, partially, [...] The rest of the answer is mostly that the forum has seen success and growth so there's no reason to make a drastic change in moderating philosophy at this point. Of course there are more things to say about it, ie good reasons for not making your suggested change, but it all boils down to the fact that there's not enough reason to try to fix something that isn't (entirely) broken.
PS: The tone of your post isn't getting you anywhere. The whole "self-proclaimed badass" thing is only entertaining yourself. I suppose that is your freedom, but I don't think you've quite thought out what a negative effect it has on the content of your post.
Postmaster, by hiding behind a smurf, you show what a weak character you are. Sign your name or don't post.
I see a lot of people posting that "TL is way worse than it used to be". I think this is garbage. TL is different than it used to be, but it is not by design of the staff. The site is a living evolving entity, and the control lies not with the staff, because this is a public place. The staff copes and adjusts to these changes as best they can. The "old" members who complain about this are the ones that do nothing to make it a better place. You know who you are.
There are also a lot of people expressing righteous indignation about how their vision of moderation is not shared by the staff. Too bad. This is the style of moderation that has created a successful and thriving forum. For evidence about why this works well, look at the alternatives. GG.net forums, WGT forums, and the old bw.com forums are all nightmares compared to TL. So, obviously something is working well for this site to have remained healthy.
The staff has nobody to answer to but themselves. This explination was written up by someone who would much prefer to have worked on something else. Three quarters of the people who responded here either didnt read or misunderstood the explination anyways. I personally dont give a shit if anybody leaves this site because they dont like the decision. If this was enough of a reason for you to leave, then you weren't bound by much.
On March 21 2007 17:26 Postmaster Bannon wrote: More than anything Chibi was just another anime faggot who took his gimmick too far. I don't think he poses any real threat to young girls because much like other anime faggots they tend not to ever leave their houses.
I won't say Chibi was a good poster because he really wasn't but this forum has taken a massive turn for the worse lately, I'm not just just saying that because I have to use a goddamn anonymous proxy in the dominican republic to post.
If you've been around TLnet long enough you can really see the patterns emerge as admins come and go from their active duty of policing the forums.
Around summer 2004 I think it was, are what I consider the glory days of TLnet, there was little to no moderation and everything seemed to sort itsself out, maybe the community was a lot smaller, but things were generally funnier and there was no one stand out admin dishing out bans and policing things like we've seen in the past as people like Rekrul, Beyonder and Mani have come and gone handing out their brand of forum justice with almost no consistency between them.
I think a lot of old posters even if they don't want to acknowledge it in the open, know the forum has been on a decline for some time. It's still the best place for pro SC news and coverage, but the sense of community and fun has been all but destroyed.
A lot of it to me is a result of the moderators treating this place as such a chore and a thorn in their side, they don't seem to enjoy themselves anymore and seem to project their apathy/anger onto everyone else.
my opinion as the Postmaster and as a guy who is generally awesome at the internet is to make some sort of anything goes subforum (with some rules obv) to funnel both the shitty posts and let people blow off some steam or just have some fucking fun when they post for once.
Also perhaps some sort of poster POWER RANK so that I can be in my rightful place as THE MOST POWERFULLY RANKED POSTER (ps power rank still sucks)
Forgive me if I don't understand who this guy is....but who is he? He says he needs to use a proxy to post, so I'm guessing it's someone who was perm-banned? Bah, if he was perm banned, i guess i don't care about his opinion anyway.
On March 21 2007 17:42 Kwark wrote: I've spent most the evening arguing on this topic but CyRiC's post has essentially answered me. If I were a mod I'd have let him slide on this one given that the rule was created to prevent any of the "post hot sisters" threads or flaming about pedophilia. I've always believed that it is the intentions of the lawmaker that should be used when upholding law, not the precise word of it. But that is my belief and the mods clearly disagree. He broke the word of the rule given to him, despite staying well away from the topics that rule was created to avoid, and indeed posting much more maturely than his peers. It's a pity to see a decent member banned for such a trivial thing.
It wasn't just that he violated the rule according to the letter of the rule, but he continued to cause trouble amongst members and thus violated the intent of the rule as well. Sure, it wasn't his intention to do so when he posted regarding pedophilia, but that was the end result. At some point Chibi had to be held responsible for the results he always caused whenever he brought up pedophilia. Just as he basically chose to be banned by posting about pedophilia and thus violating the rule we set in place, he also chose to cause trouble by posting about pedophilia in threads when he knew that people would react badly.
As an analogy, let's compare Chibi to a houseguest. When you're a guest in someone's house, you're supposed to respect their rules and try not to cause them any trouble. If you know a particular habit of your's (i.e. political/religious arguments, farting loudly, etc) tends to piss other people off or cause them to react in a way that causes trouble for your host, most reasonable people would refrain from that habit. Even if your actions may be reasonable and well thought-out and every other guest is an imbecile or overly sensitive, you refrain not because everyone is right or you're wrong, but because you don't want to cause trouble for the people who have invited you to their home. If you go so far as to make a mistake a few times in the past that get you kicked out of the house, and then the hosts are nice enough to let it slide and let you come back to enjoy their home, most reasonable people would do their best to avoid causing trouble, most likely trying even harder to not cause trouble because of all the trouble you caused in the past. If not, you deserve to be kicked out and never invited back, because you're just being unreasonable and even a bit inconsiderate to those who are nice enough to give you a place to hang out and do what you like to do.
Sure, there was not much to complain about regarding Chibi's last few posts, but the result was that he kept inciting trouble and causing complaints amongst the rest. At some point you just have to say enough is enough.
sry i cant read what happend from pages 5-20.. >.<
but if people are saying theyre gonna leave TL.net, do so already... why do you have to announce it? Want us to say goodbye or what?
Ive been here for awhile now and TL.net staying the same is just boring. I like what the site is turning out into, its getting so much better overtime.
I have not read the entire thread, because it had become too large already when I first looked at it. I was not serious. I actually agree with Chibi being banned. I talk to him sometimes and he is too stubborn to accept most societies consider consent with girls under 16 or 18 repulsive. I know he cant change himself. If he likes them he likes them. However after is is warned several time for posting anything in regard to under aged girls, he is still stubborn enough to continue in this behaviour. He just does not understand that people do not only disagree with him, but are also repulsed by him. If he could just keep his opinion towards this to himself he would be a fine member of this forum. Chibi is a nice person and means well.
Hmmm, I have been thinking of a solution to this for a few hours now, and this is what i come up with:
- Give Chibi one last chance and say this is for everyone who believes he shouldn't have been banned. - However, make him create a new account with 0 post count. From then on Chibi must be treated as a new member would, no leiniency regarding tenure or anything. - Remember, he is treated as a new member, so if he disrupts anyone, insta-ban
Maybe it's stupid.... I really don't know though. Maybe this will just blow over.
Amazing how many people come to this thread, post, without EVEN fucking read what is inside. What the fuck seriously... How do you think a forum works ? I will say it once again, because it seems it needs '1 post a page' explanation to get the attention of the stupid posters.
Chibi was not a rapist, nor promoted pedophilia. In my mind, when sobber, he just wanted to prove two points :
- majority of men tend to be attracted by young women (like him). And sorry but it is true.
- under aged girls can be aware of love things and consenting. I guess it mays come from some 'pedo' news thread where a man is put in jail for 30 years, while the girl being guilty also ; then people coming to explain how such people should be not put in prison, but shot directly on the street and blablabla _lot of details about the execution_
That being said, he often used kinda shocking arguments to prove his points. Shocked people just called him a pedo, and a general trend among a lot of half brained TLers followed. And it still lives today. The fact is, to justify his views, 'prove' he is not a rapist and so on, Chibi tried to demonstrate the 1st point (above) even more vehemently ; trying to show them he is not the one, rather a general trend. Then more people attacking him. Its the vicious circle, leading to many posts on this matter from his side.
So, will you get it in the end ??? : he is surely NOT what the witch hunters here tend to claim. The mere background point is not offensive, eventhough it can be disturbing regarding the exemples he uses and the extrems he considers. The ban on pedophilia is imo not deserved, simply because he is NOT, and not trying to defend it also. I'd rather ban 100 clueless and annoying people in this thread than him.
Personally I dont see much problem with the ban....the bold pretty much sums it up
On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote: The Commandments are in no particular order. They're all equally important.
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accomodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions. But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply IP ban you. If we're really pissed off, then we IP ban you AND nuke every single post you've uploaded to the site - ever. It will be as if you had never existed here. This is our house. You've been warned.
But given his status and respect amongst a lot of members here, maybe he deserves a reprieve.
I liked Chibi and have been around here a long time, so I guess I'm used to the 'crap' he puts out. I thought it was funny in a politically incorrect kind of way.
Still, it is understandable why he was banned. I just don't agree with it.
On March 21 2007 18:12 BlackJack wrote: what was the thread where chibi was finally banned?
The "is homosexuality hereditary" thread. Chibi brought up sexual preferences. It led to pedophilia discussions. Chibi posted in a mature and non confrontational manner, but on a subject he'd been told he was not allowed to post about. Beyonder flamed him a bit. Chibi stayed polite and responded to the flaming with well cited statistics and reason. He got flamed a bit more. Beyonder banned him in anger. Ban justified by breach of the rule, blaming Chibi for the flaming that ensued for mentioning a subject he knew he was not allowed to.
And to those quoting forum commandments, here's one for you:
6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similiar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little girly-kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 500 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has 1000+ posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.
On March 21 2007 18:29 Fuu wrote: Amazing how many people come to this thread, post, without EVEN fucking read what is inside. What the fuck seriously... How do you think a forum works ? I will say it once again, because it seems it needs '1 post a page' explanation to get the attention of the stupid posters.
Chibi was not a rapist, nor promoted pedophilia. In my mind, when sobber, he just wanted to prove two points :
- majority of men tend to be attracted by young women (like him). And sorry but it is true.
- under aged girls can be aware of love things and consenting. I guess it mays come from some 'pedo' news thread where a man is put in jail for 30 years, while the girl being guilty also ; then people coming to explain how such people should be not put in prison, but shot directly on the street and blablabla _lot of details about the execution_
That being said, he often used kinda shocking arguments to prove his points. Shocked people just called him a pedo, and a general trend among a lot of half brained TLers followed. And it still lives today. The fact is, to justify his views, 'prove' he is not a rapist and so on, Chibi tried to demonstrate the 1st point (above) even more vehemently ; trying to show them he is not the one, rather a general trend. Then more people attacking him. Its the vicious circle, leading to many posts on this matter from his side.
So, will you get it in the end ??? : he is surely NOT what the witch hunters here tend to claim. The mere background point is not offensive, eventhough it can be disturbing regarding the exemples he uses and the extrems he considers. The ban on pedophilia is imo not deserved, simply because he is NOT, and not trying to defend it also. I'd rather ban 100 clueless and annoying people in this thread than him.
Very nice post.
However there is one thing that comes up here. He did post young girls, no porno, but he knew it would upset people. I don't know why he does that, but it just is not funny. He was warned for it and got banned on two other occasions. You can now pretty much assume he will never quit stirring this thing up until people will agree with him. People will never agree with him on this and as a result you will have constant flaming which will never end.
so much drama over a forum ban... why can't everyone just get along (like Smurg said :D) it's not like this is going to dramatically effect Chibi's life and kill him or anything. People make mistakes, and they face the consequences. I've been around on TL.net for a while now, all I know about Chibi is that to me, he makes some really random, crazy posts once in a while (when he's drunk?), some really intelligent posts in threads with debates, and his pedo personality was pretty humorous in some threads ^_^. But rules are there for a reason, and breaking those rules so many times was his mistake. After being given that many chances, he should've known what was coming if he kept up that behavior. I think that he should've stayed banned after the 3rd of 4th time -_-; and all the re-bans up till now has made things worse. If he was shaping up, there shouldn't have been a reason to ban him again this time, but what's done is done, and the mods should know what they're doing now after dealing with him so many times before. I think there's really no reason to argue over this anymore..
Okay well I start rambling here and there as usual but you certainly get what you pay for. I HAVEN'T read the thread yet, and a lot of the below is simply pure and simple responses and explainations and clarifications. Whether you want to hear them or not, obviously some people are interested because otherwise they wouldn't have said all this shit in the first place.
a) I have never promoted paedophilia. I have discussed the possibility of younger people being capable of mature consent. I eventually concluded that the AoC must remain quite high and inflexible, for various obvious and less-obvious reasons, however also that I feel more research needs to be done into exactly what age it should be maintained at.
Just look at the states for example. Homosexuality, oral sex, intercourse.. ages of consent vary massively. I've seen countless posts on youtube and whatnot, referring to someone being a "disgusting pedo who should be locked up" for admiring someone 15 or 16. Sound familiar?
(If you don't understand, I was comparing those sort of people to the sort of people who find 15-16 year old girls attractive, but at the same time bash on people who like 12-13 year olds.)
b) Several times I told people to cut the crap with the pedo jokes and bs about me.
c) I have not posted anything illegal. I agree in hindsight my "do you find these girls attractive?" thread was in poor taste. I didn't have my own computer during those months and kinda rushed into it with the very limited time I had. I've explained before that I posted it only because it followed two other threads of the same theme ("do you find this woman hot?").
d) I'm seriously getting the impression that some people are reading "pedophilia" to mean "kiddie fucking". What the hell is wrong with you? Paedophilia is neither particularly uncommon nor is it usually a persons "sole" attraction. I like women as much as the next guy (not Mora). I just have this extra attraction towards youth. And it's not necessarily anything more than an initial visual attraction.
I'm sure a lot of paedophiles find young girls attractive visually, but wouldn't want to date one because they're annoying and loud and dumb, for example. And if someone _is_ attracted to a young persons personality, that isn't so damn creepy now is it? Someone might like immature people because he's pretty immature, playful, careless, himself. Someone might like them because he likes to have someone to teach, in the same way a parent or school teacher likes to teach. It's not a "justification" - it's simply an explaination. And it's not THAT creepy.
I do think it's unfortunate, and can present a danger, and can result in a lot of depression and strife for the poor guy or gal that has to deal with it. But something not within someone's control is never a question of morals. What you DO with these people, and what they do with themselves, is connected with morality.
But paedophiles are not child abusers. An attraction to kids is far from uncontrollable. If you have any sexual attraction that is uncontrollable I think you should seek help.
We're talking about someone who is inclined to argue - knowing that he may well be wrong - that some young people are capable of consent. What's the big fucking deal? I'm not talking about raping 8 year olds here.
e) As far as I'm aware I always use rationality to "justify" things. I don't say they're good but I do point out the reasons they occur, and the reasons they might be considered ok. I am always open-minded to people who respond in a similar manner, and I've expressed that I don't trust in my own opinion 100%, but that I do value it since I consider myself informed.
Which is a good thing, don't you think? I've spent a good few hours on a certain child modelling forum recently and have been discussing several things about the law and morality, and often explaining to people (paedophiles) why they are wrong to think what they do.
Simple examples: should child glamour modelling in any form be legal, since it is a "sexual activity"? If so, should it be controlled with a specific age of consent? What about beauty pageants? What about Dakota acting in that rape scene in her new movie? Does the fact that the movie has "artistic value" protect her from the potential abuse she might suffer in being involved in something sexual and disturbing? If she's having some special psychological evaluation applied to answer these questions, then can't the same be done for child models and the like?
Discussing these things and actively changing people's opinions for the better is kinda fun. It means a 19 year old might not go to jail for "molesting" his 14 year old girlfriend, and it means some poor 5 year old might not be dressed up in a bikini and made to pose erotically for some sick fucks to jack off over.
I'm gonna finish up with some responses to Testie and Incontrol coz they posted a fuckload of trolling lies and I wasn't able to respond and show people this before. I could respond to them much more, but won't.
"Second off, he continually brings it into threads that aren't related. Is homosexuality hereditary? Is this relevant?"
Yes it was.
"A good % of his posts tend to have the underlying quality of pushing his viewpoint on other people which has already been majorly rejected."
Well, I was involved in 4-5 debates about the subject. You can read them for yourself to see the content, tone and context of each of my posts. They are 12-19 pages long each so you've got some reading to do if you want to know the truth. I was talking to people who think "giving out condoms in schools is promoting paedophilia".
"People are trying to do what is right for their children, while his whole viewpoint takes away from that ignoring them."
What the fuck is my "whole viewpoint" anyway Testie? Do you know or are you making things up?
"Chibi's viewpoint condones it and finds it socially acceptable."
What viewpoint? What do I condone? If I've said something is socially acceptable then I must have been talking about a place where it is socially acceptable, by definition.
"finds it socially acceptable to sleep with a child"
???
"He can make all the excuses of, "if they are mentally grown and willing it should be alright. There are some very mature kids out there.""
Well, sure, that's the whole arguement for any AoC ruling. Shut the fuck up.
"For all we know his viewpoint is that of, "If I ever had a child sure, why not slip it into a kid that won't remember that i'm doing it. No harm done, and I get to experience it"."
Okay well now we've concluded that you have no idea what my viewpoint is, nor indeed know anything about me whatsoever, how about you stop posing defamatory trolls like this.
Regarding Incontrol:
Can't really be bothered with you. People should read all the giant pedo threads if they want to know what actually went on in them, as I've said before. I think the latest one started off about bestiality?
"Wasn't it like, litterally only a few months he made that thread that was completely saturated with young girls half nude and straddling sculpture penis' etc?"
I posted multiple half-nude girls? No? And the picture of sculpture penis wasn't posted by me afaik.
"He also asked "Who wouldnt stick their penis in that" in referance to an 11 year old girl."
Yeh, that was Saaya Irie, the young supermodel in Japan who has been posted about before because she has enormous breasts. What's your point? All that stuff was stupid and I got banned for it, as far as I can recall, months ago. Here's that thread:
LASTLY (omg), here is a brief summary of my "viewpoint". For those that didn't get it the first 600 times.
"chibi has made his views very clear in the past numerous times and does not condone relations with a child. he has concluded that some 13 year olds are able to consent, and that it is possible for them to have a healthy relationship with an adult, but that it is extremely unlikely in a society totally unsuitable for such a relationship, and in a society where young people are generally very immature (eg USA).
he has concluded that such oppertunities cannot exist because the law must be set at a particular age, however he would like to see more research into what age is suitable for our ever-increasingly mature population"
NOTE: this post has been only a clarification or response to certain things. As far as I'm aware, I'm banned for multiple fuckups - NOT because other people dislike or misunderstand me. Now I'm gonna go read the thread.
Kwark your problem is that you are looking for a smoking gun, when it was clearly stated in the opening post why the decision was reached. Go read THAT post again, because you clearly didn't understand it the first time.
For those of you who say TL is declining, I have been conducting a thorough research of TeamLiquid for the past 10 years, I would discuss with you the specifics but it would most likely result in many heads a sploded, so I have formulated this simple graph for you to see.
As mentioned by my colleague Postmaster "Rosalind Franklin" Bannon TL's moderation comes in patterns, looking at the graph above you can see the stunning correlation between lack of moderator activity and the delinquency of newbinfants. According to various sources, we are in a transition period between the 2nd coming of newbies and the banning of said newbies, those who are not banned shall be "left behind".
Ok, seriously, when I was a wittle newbie I was so afraid of getting banned. Then, I started to learn that TL mods aren't Nazi's and they will let funny / infrequent "bending" of rules slide. Some people seem to be lacking such initial fear and think they can prance around and do whatever they want.
P.S. I hope to God someone finds this funny and I am not banned. :O!
On March 21 2007 18:48 mahnini wrote: For those of you who say TL is declining, I have been conducting a thorough research of TeamLiquid for the past 10 years, I would discuss with you the specifics but it would most likely result in many heads a sploded, so I have formulated this simple graph for you to see.
As mentioned by my colleague Postmaster "Rosalind Franklin" Bannon TL's moderation comes in patterns, looking at the graph above you can see the stunning correlation between lack of moderator activity and the delinquency of newbinfants. According to various sources, we are in a transition period between the 2nd coming of newbies and the banning of said newbies, those who are not banned shall be "left behind".
Ok, seriously, when I was a wittle newbie I was so afraid of getting banned. Then, I started to learn that TL mods aren't Nazi's and they will let funny / infrequent "bending" of rules slide. Some people seem to be lacking such initial fear and think they can prance around and do whatever they want.
P.S. I hope to God someone finds this funny and I am not banned. :O!
In my opinion, I think that TeamLiquid and its harsh punishment (I'm not sure how many times the staff warned CHIBI about his behaviour, however, it is always necessary warnings before perm ban.) is really changing what is "Team Liquid".
In other words, why do most of us search through TL anyway? Well besides entering into interesting and nourishing discussions about SC or the very well appreciated Pro Korean SC scene news, it is also because of the great deal of intellectual, entertaining and funny arguments presented at the "GENERAL THREAD" area...
Having this said, in my point of view, I can see that what twinkles in Team Liquid, besides SC, is the individual and different character that every teamliquidian expresses. We are like a family, many long time posters involved such as HotBID, rpf, baal, the staff, testie, morph, evil teletuby, MTF, poppa and many more are part of that family.
Chibi is perhaps not a follower in good behavior, but im 100% sure that he has provided TL a vast amount of help, funnyness and entertainment.
Moreover, Chibi getting banned is like killing a member of a family.
Now that we have heard both sides over and over again, It sounds like the mods had decent reason to ban Chibi.
I don't agree with it, but that is just because I loved chibi's posts and I would never be for the banning of Chibi short of something very extreme^_^
One thing good that hopefully did come from this thread is that people realized that Chibi wasn't some raging child molester like he was made out to be. Most people just hopped on the chibi-pedo bandwagon without reading many of his posts;(
I hope he come back under a new name, but he might be too proud.
How can you fucking ignore what Beyonder did... threates to leave if Chibi gets unbanned?
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!
no apology changes what he said, and that is a rock solid proof of what an horrible moderator he is.
Saying this doesnt have repercutions in the decition is BS... why does he gets excused because it was in the "heat" on the moment? what fucking heat?!?! Chibi wasnt insulting him at all or anything... chibi was reciving insults FROM him...
Nobody fucking cars if he has strong feelings... he is a moderator... a Judge and as such its his fucking duty ro remain impartial at all times, he did not and he got away with it and its repulsive.
On March 21 2007 19:19 baal wrote: How can you fucking ignore what Beyonder did... threates to leave if Chibi gets unbanned?
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!
no apology changes what he said, and that is a rock solid proof of what an horrible moderator he is.
Saying this doesnt have repercutions in the decition is BS... why does he gets excused because it was in the "heat" on the moment? what fucking heat?!?! Chibi wasnt insulting him at all or anything... chibi was reciving insults FROM him...
Nobody fucking cars if he has strong feelings... he is a moderator... a Judge and as such its his fucking duty ro remain impartial at all times, he did not and he got away with it and its repulsive.
didnt fakesteve get banned and he made a new account? i could be wrong..
and theres always stimeys 500 accounts
..anyway i think the best solution to resolve all of this getting banned for idiotic post's would be resolved if you guys made a new forum section.. call it the "short bus" and if anyone wants to post retarted shit it goes in there. people are warned ahead of time.. if you dont want to read retarted post's dont enter.. problem solved.. moderators can relax a little and the community can relax a little.
On March 21 2007 19:22 Coagulation wrote: didnt fakesteve get banned and he made a new account? i could be wrong..
and theres always stimeys 500 accounts
stimey is just unstoppable.
I also got banned long ago and I got unbanned because of WCG 2004 I think. After that I made a new account as well, but thats hardly the same situation as it is here.
On March 21 2007 19:19 baal wrote: How can you fucking ignore what Beyonder did... threates to leave if Chibi gets unbanned?
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!
no apology changes what he said, and that is a rock solid proof of what an horrible moderator he is.
Saying this doesnt have repercutions in the decition is BS... why does he gets excused because it was in the "heat" on the moment? what fucking heat?!?! Chibi wasnt insulting him at all or anything... chibi was reciving insults FROM him...
Nobody fucking cars if he has strong feelings... he is a moderator... a Judge and as such its his fucking duty ro remain impartial at all times, he did not and he got away with it and its repulsive.
Maybe it'd be impossible for you to disregard something like Bey banning Chibi in the midst of a discussion, but the rest of the staff was able to do so just fine. If anything, Bey's rash action served to only make him look less reasonable to the rest of us and make us consider our actions more carefully. I don't see the logic in something that the rest of the staff perceived as reprehensible somehow convincing us to want to go along with him more. Our decision had nothing to do with Bey's ultimatum, your doubts will do nothing to change that fact.
And the reason why Bey has been forgiven is the same reason why Chibi was allowed to continue posting even after all the crap he did in the past prior to this most recent ban, his contributions. We're calling Bey's rash act a lapse because that's what it is, an uncharacteristic act that was unique to his views on Chibi. Aside from this issue, Bey has shown himself to be a member that contributes to the forum and is typically quite reasonable. I also fail to see the logic in asking for us to give Chibi so much leniency while at the same time asking that we condemn Bey for his temporary lapse of judgment which he immediately apologized for. Both deserve leniency as a result of being regulars who contributed (Bey moreso than Chibi), but Chibi, unlike Bey, continuously overstepped his bounds and his "lapses" became his character.
I dont buy chibis whole story about not being pedo or just enlightening people of different perspectives. That dude is way to passionate about something that supposly has no relevance to him which is total bullshit. Thats like Al Gore coming out one day saying he thinks global warming is a hoax. The dude went to pedo forums on his own time to just hear their opinions and see why they feel that way? Kids doing some research and ill bet hes not an abnormal psych major. Poor nerd got touched when he was a kid prolly
On March 21 2007 19:46 likeaboss wrote: I dont buy chibis whole story about not being pedo or just enlightening people of different perspectives. That dude is way to passionate about something that supposly has no relevance to him which is total bullshit. Thats like Al Gore coming out one day saying he thinks global warming is a hoax. The dude went to pedo forums on his own time to just hear their opinions and see why they feel that way? Kids doing some research and ill bet hes not an abnormal psych major. Poor nerd got touched when he was a kid prolly
chibi focused on many other things
the age of consent one was just the easiest one to make fun of him for
On March 21 2007 19:44 XaI)CyRiC wrote: I also fail to see the logic in asking for us to give Chibi so much leniency while at the same time asking that we condemn Bey
I am asking for congruence, if we hang chibi we hang others.
We close a thread and warn or ban mora where he graphically describes how he sucked another guy's penis... why? because its a sexual deviation and its seen as sick and repulsive by many many... and its also illegal in MANY countries, and in some punishable by death.
But wait.. we didnt ban him why? because we are above those idiotic rules, because Mora is an old poster and a character of lp.net, then WHY THE FUCK DID YOU BAN CHIBI?
the staff must be confruent, are we going to enforce our morals or not.
OK, 23 pages... I don't have time to read it through so I'll just respond to the OP.
I don't understand a couple of things...
I did skim a bit and What the Fuck is with all these 100 post people commenting on Chibi? I'm glad these important members of the community were satisfied.
Another thing I don't get is his prior bans counting against him. It seems taken out of context to me, as if he were more of a trouble maker. It appeared to me and probably everyone else that 90% of the time his bans weren't serious. At least half of them were hilarious. Like this for example (though I know he wasn't banned for this one):
i've been to mexicso. there is nothing but chea p jewleerly stores and unoriginal replicant seatsa and wiggly-jad armadilos figureines. if you disagree you have never visited this place. ther are many dark alleys but mainly the strreest are filled with idiot drivers and dummb entrepaneurs who think they can make a seriousky living from trinkets and insubstancial jdwldferery.unnd. how on earth did my tetxt jump from end parapgraph to here . the imprtnt [aragraph is below. it shud exaplina that mexicon sucks. if it doesnt then be prepared to haggle unless and i streess this UNLESS you faint on a donkey or MULE. in which case you should be thankful. howveer this is in moroco where the hotels even the 5 star one sprovide you with only bread amnd jam for breakfast. what i am talking about ;mexico and the fcuk im breod . hitting the posrt button now.
in summary, mexiaco sucks except for the weird chairs and bones thats litrtter thre gro
on a sidenot e4 i dont mind being banned for a wekk because i have a certain mindset to adopt and this can be only done with a review of life by japanese entrepanure manifesto seven. bunch of philostinses and according to sealab god forbid the wrath of quin. mighty quinn quinn quinn quinn.l whayt
anyway im afk. see yo in a week
The other things I don't understand are how Chibi was told to never bring up the "pedo" stuff again and that is what he was banned for when he in fact did not bring it up. No one would of thought so if Beyonder and co did not provoke him and escalate it into an argument.
Those are the people who wanted him banned for talking about pedo stuff, yet they were the ones who turned it into a pedo discussion.
And what Chibi told me was:
J says: their whole point was that id "been told never to bring up the subject" when infact id been told only to "not post anything provokative or offensive"
On March 21 2007 19:44 XaI)CyRiC wrote: I also fail to see the logic in asking for us to give Chibi so much leniency while at the same time asking that we condemn Bey
I am asking for congruence, if we hang chibi we hang others.
We close a thread and warn or ban mora where he graphically describes how he sucked another guy's penis... why? because its a sexual deviation and its seen as sick and repulsive by many many... and its also illegal in MANY countries, and in some punishable by death.
But wait.. we didnt ban him why? because we are above those idiotic rules, because Mora is an old poster and a character of lp.net, then WHY THE FUCK DID YOU BAN CHIBI?
the staff must be confruent, are we going to enforce our morals or not.
I don't know why Testie thinks this is the stupidest idea he's ever heard of, it is fairly sound logic I suppose.
It just happens what Chibi has done is more repulsive to others than anything else? Say 2-3 times. To be honest, I've noticed Mora and his overt homosexuality more than I have Chibi's 'pedo' tendencies.
It would still be great to know what our policy is on offensive posting. There's certainly much more offensive things around here than jocular references to pedophilia.
im gonna skip about 22 pages but my main idea is...
based on the ten commandments... you can't be a sexist, racist, homo, attention whore, spammer,a ugly name, or a bastard speaking dfwtfklljdlkf. No where it mention about outlawing a pedophiles. None of the quoted quotes are offensive or inappropriate to me, is more like a joke.. There was no originated thread link for the quotes, so the quotes are ??? shit? (It's all about the context) Everyone knows chibi like talking about sex and young girls. So what? I mean time to time people make threads about killing, ninjas, cursing people to death, growing weed, torrents, sharing music.. However I don't track people's post detaily. I dont know Chibi, I dont know if he's a real pedophile or not. Most of the time when he throw a pedophile post, I acknowledge it as a joke..
Just don't ban him for being a pedophile. Ban him if he does cause trouble or break rules.
On March 21 2007 18:07 Manifesto7 wrote: I see a lot of people posting that "TL is way worse than it used to be". I think this is garbage. TL is different than it used to be, but it is not by design of the staff. The site is a living evolving entity, and the control lies not with the staff, because this is a public place. The staff copes and adjusts to these changes as best they can. The "old" members who complain about this are the ones that do nothing to make it a better place. You know who you are.
Staff members are old members who would complain to, if not for having a private forum where they, I suspect, keep all the good threads to themselves. I liked teamliquid a lot more when more of the mod staff were active. A lot of the people who kept the site really interesting to me were Rekrul, Mensrea, Nazgul, and some others. Now I barely notice that Nazgul or Rekrul are alive. A result of poker I guess.
I'd be going really off topic if I went any further so I'll just skip to my conclusion. Old members might not have anything to complain about since it IS on them to improve it, but that doesn't make their claim incorrect.
I agree with you that many many older personalities have left, and many of them can be found at LP.net
One thing that I WILL tell you is that the staff forum is quite possibly the driest and most boring forum on the site. No super secret sexy party threads.
We should have mod elections. Here's my platform: "For my part, if elected I pledge to immediately close all global warming-related threads (even though that would cut the total number in half)."
But back OT: I guess I never really noticed that much positive or negative about Chibi. He did have his useless/trolling responses, but I don't know how much it bothered anyone.
Or we could have an "impersonate Chibi" contest where a bunch of TL regulars (and the real Chibi, perhaps) take smurf names in a attempt to imitate the Chibi persona. Then, if the real Chibi manages to be the most entertaining, the mods can unban. If not, whoever's imitation was the best/most entertaining gets Chibi's 120189239 post count and can then act as the new Chibi-bot/Chibi-smurf.
At least that way this whole process is entertaining.
On March 21 2007 21:04 MYM.Testie wrote: So the threads dead now right? It's hard to maintain any seriousness after these last pages. But... another page is beginning soon.
Well, it is hard to debate when a thread grows this fast and no one responds to your arguments.
On March 21 2007 20:03 Servolisk wrote: The other things I don't understand are how Chibi was told to never bring up the "pedo" stuff again and that is what he was banned for when he in fact did not bring it up. No one would of thought so if Beyonder and co did not provoke him and escalate it into an argument.
Those are the people who wanted him banned for talking about pedo stuff, yet they were the ones who turned it into a pedo discussion.
Good point. I think Beyonder didn't even think Chibi was breaking some agreement when he made his post, otherwise he would of tried to ban him right there and not make some insult about being gay and contemptuous. The only reason Chibi was seen as bringing up pedo stuff again was because Beyonder made a discussion around it.
On March 21 2007 20:03 Servolisk wrote: The other things I don't understand are how Chibi was told to never bring up the "pedo" stuff again and that is what he was banned for when he in fact did not bring it up. No one would of thought so if Beyonder and co did not provoke him and escalate it into an argument.
Those are the people who wanted him banned for talking about pedo stuff, yet they were the ones who turned it into a pedo discussion.
Good point. I think Beyonder didn't even think Chibi was breaking some agreement when he made his post, otherwise he would of tried to ban him right there and not make some insult about being gay and contemptuous. The only reason Chibi was seen as bringing up pedo stuff again was because Beyonder made a discussion around it.
Say there's a user he's got 0 posts, because he just made a smurf name said user goes on to be obnoxious loud mouthed opinionated asshole you mods/admins cant see his IP and other users logging in with that IP?
i think some of you may see where im going with that.
On March 21 2007 21:26 Gene wrote: I have a semi-relevant question
Say there's a user he's got 0 posts, because he just made a smurf name said user goes on to be obnoxious loud mouthed opinionated asshole you mods/admins cant see his IP and other users logging in with that IP?
i think some of you may see where im going with that.
they can see his ip. At least I would be incredibly surprised if they cant
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have to make a post about this anyways. It surely won't be as good as the other two, but, it has to be said.
Chibi's ban is yet another example of several features of TLnet as a community and a site. First, public perception of Chibi has overtaken reality in defining him, even for the mods. Mods, for a number of reasons (some ideas: lack of effort, lack of interest, stupidity, naivety) start to believe what the idiots have said over and over about someone. Unfunny people like to constantly try to be funny over and over--that's probably the main theme of TLnet, and so, the loudest, most active idiots come to define what "the public" "knows" about someone, and this somehow bleeds into the mod's actual discussion (even, their consensus) on what a person is.
In the case of Chibi, they think he has some kind of pedo agenda. That he brings it into every topic. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as Chibi has eloquently pointed out, and defended to a tee, so many times. This leads into the second main feature of TLnet: that well-written, careful, kind, constructive fact, in response to false claims, is completely wasted on most of the staff. In fact, they won't even read it. They think they know everything, and you are just a waste of time to them. They trust their random, illiterate mods' parroting of the "public" opinion more than anything you say, no matter how clearly you say it and how well you back it up. They have no respect for you, since you're banned, and you're a pedo. Even if several of their most level-headed and intelligent and well-liked mods vouch for you, this doesn't faze them at all.
It is plain fact that Chibi doesn't do these things. Other people bring this crap up, and they are not held responsible for this. A circus of idiocy follows Chibi, probably trolls who know they can start the same old shit if they bring the topic up, and they just keep plugging away. The mods only see their arguments as truth, and see the cause of the problem as Chibi, and have to get rid of all conflict because of their fairy tale ideal of what the forum is supposed to be. This combination of ignorance of the true cause of friction, with intolerance for the friction (ignorance of its vital role for any discussion--ignorance that it only needs to be channeled, like water, not dammed), is, frankly, deadly for a site. A few troublemakers can literally run everyone sincere and interesting off of the site. This is what has been happening for years.
Thirdly, TL has had a very conservative intolerance for controversial issues. There was a time when you couldn't talk about drugs, no matter in how serious a manner. We see a similar problem with discussing certain sexual issues. Chibi's thought-out, researched stance, that he merely looks to discuss, and share his research so that others can refute it, or be enlightened by it, is constantly shouted down by simple-minded bigotry reminiscent of adolescent, locker-room, chatter. "Eew sick, shut up, don't be a fag", you can almost read between the lines. These are the people who should grow up, and stay out of topics that they can't handle.
Even if Chibi, and his influence, is bad for society, it is better that we let him talk about it out in the open, that we can try to convince him, so that we can see where the truth of the matter truly lies. Shouting down or censoring fringe viewpoints does a disservice to society. It is better that they work them out in the public, than keep them secret. It is truly cowardly, and selfish, to want to shut down any discussion that is not interesting to you, or that is disturbing to you personally.
Basically, the immature people who can't handle serious topics like pedophilia or drugs, and the immature people that keep saying false things about Chibi and bad jokes about Chibi to try to provoke him into "bringing up" (responding to) "the pedo topic", are bringing the site down. If you want to make TLnet better, demote the bad mods, unban the good people, and start whipping these immature, abundant, and unnecessary assholes into shape. Invite back the geniuses and let them mod your General Forum and unleash a Stimtopia.
On March 21 2007 21:32 Servolisk wrote: I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have to make a post about this anyways. It surely won't be as good as the other two, but, it has to be said.
Chibi's ban is yet another example of several features of TLnet as a community and a site. First, public perception of Chibi has overtaken reality in defining him, even for the mods. Mods, for a number of reasons (some ideas: lack of effort, lack of interest, stupidity, naivety) start to believe what the idiots have said over and over about someone. Unfunny people like to constantly try to be funny over and over--that's probably the main theme of TLnet, and so, the loudest, most active idiots come to define what "the public" "knows" about someone, and this somehow bleeds into the mod's actual discussion (even, their consensus) on what a person is.
In the case of Chibi, they think he has some kind of pedo agenda. That he brings it into every topic. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as Chibi has eloquently pointed out, and defended to a tee, so many times. This leads into the second main feature of TLnet: that well-written, careful, kind, constructive fact, in response to false claims, is completely wasted on most of the staff. In fact, they won't even read it. They think they know everything, and you are just a waste of time to them. They trust their random, illiterate mods' parroting of the "public" opinion more than anything you say, no matter how clearly you say it and how well you back it up. They have no respect for you, since you're banned, and you're a pedo. Even if several of their most level-headed and intelligent and well-liked mods vouch for you, this doesn't faze them at all.
It is plain fact that Chibi doesn't do these things. Other people bring this crap up, and they are not held responsible for this. A circus of idiocy follows Chibi, probably trolls who know they can start the same old shit if they bring the topic up, and they just keep plugging away. The mods only see their arguments as truth, and see the cause of the problem as Chibi, and have to get rid of all conflict because of their fairy tale ideal of what the forum is supposed to be. This combination of ignorance of the true cause of friction, with intolerance for the friction (ignorance of its vital role for any discussion--ignorance that it only needs to be channeled, like water, not dammed), is, frankly, deadly for a site. A few troublemakers can literally run everyone sincere and interesting off of the site. This is what has been happening for years.
Thirdly, TL has had a very conservative intolerance for controversial issues. There was a time when you couldn't talk about drugs, no matter in how serious a manner. We see a similar problem with discussing certain sexual issues. Chibi's thought-out, researched stance, that he merely looks to discuss, and share his research so that others can refute it, or be enlightened by it, is constantly shouted down by simple-minded bigotry reminiscent of adolescent, locker-room, chatter. "Eew sick, shut up, don't be a fag", you can almost read between the lines. These are the people who should grow up, and stay out of topics that they can't handle.
Even if Chibi, and his influence, is bad for society, it is better that we let him talk about it out in the open, that we can try to convince him, so that we can see where the truth of the matter truly lies. Shouting down or censoring fringe viewpoints does a disservice to society. It is better that they work them out in the public, than keep them secret. It is truly cowardly, and selfish, to want to shut down any discussion that is not interesting to you, or that is disturbing to you personally.
Basically, the immature people who can't handle serious topics like pedophilia or drugs, and the immature people that keep saying false things about Chibi and bad jokes about Chibi to try to provoke him into "bringing up" (responding to) "the pedo topic", are bringing the site down. If you want to make TLnet better, demote the bad mods, unban the good people, and start whipping these immature, abundant, and unnecessary assholes into shape. Invite back the geniuses and let them mod your General Forum and unleash a Stimtopia.
Eloquently stated Servolisk. I wanted to say this myself but was afraid to do so given the general consensus that all the mods hate me and I didn't want to rock the boat. Apropos and ironic, no? Exactly what you're talking about. I also like the elements of John Mill's philosophies in that.
Whoever thinks that individuality of desires and impulses should not be encouraged to unfold itself, must maintain that society has no need of strong natures—is not the better for containing many persons who have much character—and that a high general average of energy is not desirable...Even despotism does not produce its worst effects, so long as individuality exists under it; and whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called, and whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men.
ugh i posted this on the last page but deleted it in hopes that the thread would die
just because chibi said he didnt promote pedoism in his final words doesnt make it true you cant erase his illustrious and undeniable past no matter how hard you try whether he wants to say it or not, although he has many times that im not going to try to prove by finding because if you wish to ignore something so true so be it, he was a pedo. he promoted it many times, and if you'renot okay with that, you HAVE to concede that he defended his ideas in a sense that made them "normal" and "acceptable" which it is not no matter how depraved the world you live in.
ugh i should have read your whole post. apparently it is to you. brb. sorry chibi i still love you.
On March 21 2007 21:32 Servolisk wrote: I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have to make a post about this anyways. It surely won't be as good as the other two, but, it has to be said.
Chibi's ban is yet another example of several features of TLnet as a community and a site. First, public perception of Chibi has overtaken reality in defining him, even for the mods. Mods, for a number of reasons (some ideas: lack of effort, lack of interest, stupidity, naivety) start to believe what the idiots have said over and over about someone. Unfunny people like to constantly try to be funny over and over--that's probably the main theme of TLnet, and so, the loudest, most active idiots come to define what "the public" "knows" about someone, and this somehow bleeds into the mod's actual discussion (even, their consensus) on what a person is.
In the case of Chibi, they think he has some kind of pedo agenda. That he brings it into every topic. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as Chibi has eloquently pointed out, and defended to a tee, so many times. This leads into the second main feature of TLnet: that well-written, careful, kind, constructive fact, in response to false claims, is completely wasted on most of the staff. In fact, they won't even read it. They think they know everything, and you are just a waste of time to them. They trust their random, illiterate mods' parroting of the "public" opinion more than anything you say, no matter how clearly you say it and how well you back it up. They have no respect for you, since you're banned, and you're a pedo. Even if several of their most level-headed and intelligent and well-liked mods vouch for you, this doesn't faze them at all.
It is plain fact that Chibi doesn't do these things. Other people bring this crap up, and they are not held responsible for this. A circus of idiocy follows Chibi, probably trolls who know they can start the same old shit if they bring the topic up, and they just keep plugging away. The mods only see their arguments as truth, and see the cause of the problem as Chibi, and have to get rid of all conflict because of their fairy tale ideal of what the forum is supposed to be. This combination of ignorance of the true cause of friction, with intolerance for the friction (ignorance of its vital role for any discussion--ignorance that it only needs to be channeled, like water, not dammed), is, frankly, deadly for a site. A few troublemakers can literally run everyone sincere and interesting off of the site. This is what has been happening for years.
Thirdly, TL has had a very conservative intolerance for controversial issues. There was a time when you couldn't talk about drugs, no matter in how serious a manner. We see a similar problem with discussing certain sexual issues. Chibi's thought-out, researched stance, that he merely looks to discuss, and share his research so that others can refute it, or be enlightened by it, is constantly shouted down by simple-minded bigotry reminiscent of adolescent, locker-room, chatter. "Eew sick, shut up, don't be a fag", you can almost read between the lines. These are the people who should grow up, and stay out of topics that they can't handle.
Even if Chibi, and his influence, is bad for society, it is better that we let him talk about it out in the open, that we can try to convince him, so that we can see where the truth of the matter truly lies. Shouting down or censoring fringe viewpoints does a disservice to society. It is better that they work them out in the public, than keep them secret. It is truly cowardly, and selfish, to want to shut down any discussion that is not interesting to you, or that is disturbing to you personally.
Basically, the immature people who can't handle serious topics like pedophilia or drugs, and the immature people that keep saying false things about Chibi and bad jokes about Chibi to try to provoke him into "bringing up" (responding to) "the pedo topic", are bringing the site down. If you want to make TLnet better, demote the bad mods, unban the good people, and start whipping these immature, abundant, and unnecessary assholes into shape. Invite back the geniuses and let them mod your General Forum and unleash a Stimtopia.
That account was created on 2007-03-21 14:27:25 and had 22 posts.
Lol pwned... this dude treated this thread like an AIM Chat Window.
Anyways, baal that was one quite witty chart you posted. Did it take long for you to think of that? I'm willing to bet you my car that his IQ is higher than yours.
On March 21 2007 21:36 Gene wrote: ugh i posted this on the last page but deleted it in hopes that the thread would die
just because chibi said he didnt promote pedoism in his final words doesnt make it true you cant erase his illustrious and undeniable past no matter how hard you try whether he wants to say it or not, although he has many times that im not going to try to prove by finding because if you wish to ignore something so true so be it, he was a pedo. he promoted it many times, and if you'renot okay with that, you HAVE to concede that he defended his ideas in a sense that made them "normal" and "acceptable" which it is not no matter how depraved the world you live in.
ugh i should have read your whole post. apparently it is to you. brb. sorry chibi i still love you.
this only applies if you think chibi wants to fuck 12 year olds all day and he doesn't
being physically attracted to physically mature girls who may be ranging in age 15-20 if you had to venture a guess does not make you a pedophile. Pedophilia is about fucking CHILDREN. Children with NO ADULT QUALITIES. Pre-puberty sort of thing. It's a wild leap from what Chibi thinks to that word.
On March 21 2007 21:32 Servolisk wrote: I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have to make a post about this anyways. It surely won't be as good as the other two, but, it has to be said.
Chibi's ban is yet another example of several features of TLnet as a community and a site. First, public perception of Chibi has overtaken reality in defining him, even for the mods. Mods, for a number of reasons (some ideas: lack of effort, lack of interest, stupidity, naivety) start to believe what the idiots have said over and over about someone. Unfunny people like to constantly try to be funny over and over--that's probably the main theme of TLnet, and so, the loudest, most active idiots come to define what "the public" "knows" about someone, and this somehow bleeds into the mod's actual discussion (even, their consensus) on what a person is.
In the case of Chibi, they think he has some kind of pedo agenda. That he brings it into every topic. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as Chibi has eloquently pointed out, and defended to a tee, so many times. This leads into the second main feature of TLnet: that well-written, careful, kind, constructive fact, in response to false claims, is completely wasted on most of the staff. In fact, they won't even read it. They think they know everything, and you are just a waste of time to them. They trust their random, illiterate mods' parroting of the "public" opinion more than anything you say, no matter how clearly you say it and how well you back it up. They have no respect for you, since you're banned, and you're a pedo. Even if several of their most level-headed and intelligent and well-liked mods vouch for you, this doesn't faze them at all.
It is plain fact that Chibi doesn't do these things. Other people bring this crap up, and they are not held responsible for this. A circus of idiocy follows Chibi, probably trolls who know they can start the same old shit if they bring the topic up, and they just keep plugging away. The mods only see their arguments as truth, and see the cause of the problem as Chibi, and have to get rid of all conflict because of their fairy tale ideal of what the forum is supposed to be. This combination of ignorance of the true cause of friction, with intolerance for the friction (ignorance of its vital role for any discussion--ignorance that it only needs to be channeled, like water, not dammed), is, frankly, deadly for a site. A few troublemakers can literally run everyone sincere and interesting off of the site. This is what has been happening for years.
Thirdly, TL has had a very conservative intolerance for controversial issues. There was a time when you couldn't talk about drugs, no matter in how serious a manner. We see a similar problem with discussing certain sexual issues. Chibi's thought-out, researched stance, that he merely looks to discuss, and share his research so that others can refute it, or be enlightened by it, is constantly shouted down by simple-minded bigotry reminiscent of adolescent, locker-room, chatter. "Eew sick, shut up, don't be a fag", you can almost read between the lines. These are the people who should grow up, and stay out of topics that they can't handle.
Even if Chibi, and his influence, is bad for society, it is better that we let him talk about it out in the open, that we can try to convince him, so that we can see where the truth of the matter truly lies. Shouting down or censoring fringe viewpoints does a disservice to society. It is better that they work them out in the public, than keep them secret. It is truly cowardly, and selfish, to want to shut down any discussion that is not interesting to you, or that is disturbing to you personally.
Basically, the immature people who can't handle serious topics like pedophilia or drugs, and the immature people that keep saying false things about Chibi and bad jokes about Chibi to try to provoke him into "bringing up" (responding to) "the pedo topic", are bringing the site down. If you want to make TLnet better, demote the bad mods, unban the good people, and start whipping these immature, abundant, and unnecessary assholes into shape. Invite back the geniuses and let them mod your General Forum and unleash a Stimtopia.
Eloquently stated Servolisk. I wanted to say this myself but was afraid to do so given the general consensus that all the mods hate me and I didn't want to rock the boat. Apropos and ironic, no? Exactly what you're talking about. I also like the elements of John Mill's philosophies in that.
Whoever thinks that individuality of desires and impulses should not be encouraged to unfold itself, must maintain that society has no need of strong natures—is not the better for containing many persons who have much character—and that a high general average of energy is not desirable.
I wasn't the real author of that, I thought it was obvious, but you can guess who.
On March 21 2007 11:53 MYM.Testie wrote: Edit: Bine, the N word isn't close to joking about having sex with 11 year olds. The N word is another matter that should have it's own thread if you feel it needs to be discussed.
Well i guess that's subjective opinion. To you, having sex with 11 year olds is a much bigger deal. To me, one is a relatively harmless outlet for someone with particular feelings while another is participatory in widely and overwhelmingly pervasive racism that negatively affects the lives of millions of real people. Some guy being perverted by himself and sometimes on an internet forum and then following it with usually intelligent discussions about pedophilia and anti-pedophilia hysteria is nothing to me compared to casually and unaplogetically perpetuating the use of the N word.
And it's definitely relevant in a discussion that partly hinges on appropriateness, ethics, offensiveness etc. I decidedly do NOT want to be the person starting big, dramatic threads about the N word and alienating myself from wide swaths of the community. Similarly, I don't want to become pigeon-holed by also calling into question the frequently anti-gay slurs abound here, for fear of being dubbed part of the annoying, ditsy and overly effeminate segment of the gay community that you sometimes refer to as representative.
(after servolisk) hmm yea that's a good point, what about other offensive posters? where do we draw the line? and even if we do, aren't there a bunch of people currently posting that are in no danger of being banned that have said things much more offensive than chibi's posts? what does that mean?
ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics(only because you're taking the most strict dictionary definition of a word/idea that has been extrapolated many times in society and whatnot) does it suffice to say chibi's view was unacceptably socially deviant? from my previous post in the thread "So i can sympathize with both of them. But what occurs to me having spoken to Bey about it a few times, He's right. The fact that i can read Chibi's posts without being utterly disgusted is kind of intriguing. I came to my conclusion that we as a world live in a somewhat depraved society that we can see that as fine to talk about. So it's all about how you look at that, that will bring you to a peace about this ban one way or the other. My opinion."
some of that i took for granted as being a truth. again im questioning myself seeing as not everyone agrees.
On March 21 2007 21:36 Gene wrote: ugh i posted this on the last page but deleted it in hopes that the thread would die
just because chibi said he didnt promote pedoism in his final words doesnt make it true you cant erase his illustrious and undeniable past no matter how hard you try whether he wants to say it or not, although he has many times that im not going to try to prove by finding because if you wish to ignore something so true so be it, he was a pedo. he promoted it many times, and if you'renot okay with that, you HAVE to concede that he defended his ideas in a sense that made them "normal" and "acceptable" which it is not no matter how depraved the world you live in.
ugh i should have read your whole post. apparently it is to you. brb. sorry chibi i still love you.
Let's go back to BC Greece, when the high culture greeks with their vaunted logic and nowadays esteemed philosophers had boy-lovers. So I guess their culture was completely depraved and crazy? You need to understand that things change. At the moment it may make you gag or whatever to think of pedophilia, but understand at one point it was nothing special. The same way that at one point people would shout you down and call you a moron for suggesting that african people not be enslaved by whites. The same way you would be called a feminist agent if you suggested that woman's suffrage become a possibility. You'll reply to me "but those are all good progressive things," and I'll say to that: only in the world we live in currently, and the morals we currently hold, which have evolved majorly over the last few thousand years.
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
Added to which underage is defined 100% subjectively by different laws in different countries, and is never accurate. If you're going to say physical maturity, well some people mature faster than others. You can have a 13 year old in Spain who looks like a 10 year old, or a 13 year old who looks like a 16 year old. Anyone who replies in this thread with the fact that they blindly follow what is legally underage is a tool and can't think for themselves; i.e. some of the first posters.
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics does it suffice to say chibi's view was unacceptably socially deviant? from my previous post in the thread "So i can sympathize with both of them. But what occurs to me having spoken to Bey about it a few times, He's right. The fact that i can read Chibi's posts without being utterly disgusted is kind of intriguing. I came to my conclusion that we as a world live in a somewhat depraved society that we can see that as fine to talk about. So it's all about how you look at that, that will bring you to a peace about this ban one way or the other. My opinion."
some of that i took for granted as being a truth. again im questioning myself seeing as not everyone agrees.
well no, its not about semantics
chibi doesnt advocate or prefer pursuing a relationship with a 15 year old over pursuing a relationship with a 20 year old. He recognizes that its not wierd to be physically attracted to either one, but he's also said that he doesn't think child/adult relationships work out (in this case, a girl around 15-17 with the mentality of an average girl that age). But he presents the idea that under absolutely perfect circumstances a 15 year old could date a 20 year old, and asks that if all things considered the relationship was perfect, would it be morally wrong?
The flaw here is that Chibi was either oblivious or didnt care that while his views aren't deviant as you think they are, there are going to be lots of people who will 1) choose to look only at parts of what he said and 2) apply those parts out of context to make fun of him. That got the stigma ball rolling and it went from there.
After that it was some joking around on his part (albeit tastlessly joking around) while trying to have the same debate which just fueled the fire.
I'm not saying Chibi was a great poster I'm saying he doesn't fuck kids
On March 21 2007 21:44 Gene wrote: we dont live in BC Greece. its not socially acceptable. we're here and now, dont make irrelevant arguments.
ugh i dont mean that how it sounds its late, im tired grumpy and swamped in HW.
LOL
Irrelevant arguments? Have you ever taken a philosophy class of any sort? This is like the most basic fucking thing I could possibly say. It's hardly irrelevant. Who the fuck are you to say whether or not in 200 years we'll have slaves again? Who are you to say it won't be 100% socially acceptable at that time?
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
no i don't liken 'pedophile' to 'sexual predator' or anything. the word is simply defined as someone who has a sexual attraction to prepubescents
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
no i don't liken 'pedophile' to 'sexual predator' or anything. the word is simply defined as someone who has a sexual attraction to prepubescents
Oh, if that is the technical meaning of the word than you are 100% right. I never looked it up actually :o
but there are still slaves, that never ended. just not in america.
it is entirely fucking irrelevant to tell me what ancients greeks practiced. their society and culture was 100 percent different from ours and incomparable. \
fusion i was addressing his post and only his post with that one.
On March 21 2007 21:51 Gene wrote: i dont know where the fuck you're from
but there are still slaves, that never ended. just not in america.
it is entirely fucking irrelevant to tell me what ancients greeks practiced. their society and culture was 100 percent different from ours and incomparable.
Sorry, but you're an idiot if you don't understand the relevance of the point. Perhaps it's because you're tired.
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
Added to which underage is defined 100% subjectively by different laws in different countries, and is never accurate. If you're going to say physical maturity, well some people mature faster than others. You can have a 13 year old in Spain who looks like a 10 year old, or a 13 year old who looks like a 16 year old. Anyone who replies in this thread with the fact that they blindly follow what is legally underage is a tool and can't think for themselves; i.e. some of the first posters.
The funny thing is -- if TL follows the same statistical trend as other places -- like 75% of the people in this thread probably thought the girl who plays Hermione in Harry Potter was sexy.
I can find underage girls attractive too, personally, but I just am more interested in my own age.
edit: My point being, I personally don't think there is anything unnatural about it, morals aside.
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
no i don't liken 'pedophile' to 'sexual predator' or anything. the word is simply defined as someone who has a sexual attraction to prepubescents
Oh, if that is the technical meaning of the word than you are 100% right. I never looked it up actually :o
To clarify, pedophiles tend to be attracted to the androgynous features of children - undeveloped chests, narrow waists et cetra. Being attracted to a 15, or even an 11 year old with large breasts does not make you a pedophile. Whether it is morally wrong or not, is another issue, but it is not a pedophillic desire.
To summarize ( and I realize this is dangerous): A person attracted to the androgynous features of children - pedophile A person attracted to the features of a human in mid to late puberty - ephebophile
Age limits are mainly established to limit confusion afaict
i dont see why deviant topics can't be discussed in a mature manner. so what if it is deviant, deviancy is only problematic to the intolerant. this intolerance is not just 'not accept the position,' it is an inability to entertain the position in a fair manner. whoever wrote that long thing servolisk posted has one thing right, that in a conflict over a controversial topic, the blame need not fall on the guy who brought it up, but perhaps on those who made it a big deal. who is to blame, would be a question related to 'what sort of community' should be here. is it a tolerant and mature community, then push back those who make a big deal out of 'deviant' things, the alternatives are not that appealing, or well defined.
and i dont think being physically attracted to anything should be offensive. the controversy in pedophilia is the child abuse, which is clearly not shown in chibi's behavior. the stigma when it comes to chibi is misplaced.
What does it matter what you find attractive? It's completely irrelevant. It is all about you choose to deal with it. Afaik Chibi never touched an under aged girl let alone consent with one;(
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
no i don't liken 'pedophile' to 'sexual predator' or anything. the word is simply defined as someone who has a sexual attraction to prepubescents
Oh, if that is the technical meaning of the word than you are 100% right. I never looked it up actually :o
To clarify, pedophiles tend to be attracted to the androgynous features of children - undeveloped chests, narrow waists et cetra. Being attracted to a 15, or even an 11 year old with large breasts does not make you a pedophile. Whether it is morally wrong or not, is another issue, but it is not a pedophillic desire.
To summarize ( and I realize this is dangerous): A person attracted to the androgynous features of children - pedophile A person attracted to the features of a human in mid to late puberty - ephebophile
Age limits are mainly established to limit confusion afaict
yeah that's why I've used the phrases "physically mature" and "prepubescent", only using actual ages where necessary
hermoine IS sexy!!!! i also remember someone saying they would bang jojo? shes was like 13...so i dont know why they were not banned for such things where chibi was?
On March 21 2007 21:42 Gene wrote: ugh steve IMO you're arguing semantics.
Yeah I think he interprets the word different. Pedo means being attracted to underage people, which Chibi is, but the point is that is a big difference from the way we'd use the word for some child rapist, and people seem to be acting like he is that type of pedo.
no i don't liken 'pedophile' to 'sexual predator' or anything. the word is simply defined as someone who has a sexual attraction to prepubescents
Oh, if that is the technical meaning of the word than you are 100% right. I never looked it up actually :o
To clarify, pedophiles tend to be attracted to the androgynous features of children - undeveloped chests, narrow waists et cetra. Being attracted to a 15, or even an 11 year old with large breasts does not make you a pedophile. Whether it is morally wrong or not, is another issue, but it is not a pedophillic desire.
To summarize ( and I realize this is dangerous): A person attracted to the androgynous features of children - pedophile A person attracted to the features of a human in mid to late puberty - ephebophile
Age limits are mainly established to limit confusion afaict
yeah that's why I've used the phrases "physically mature" and "prepubescent", only using actual ages where necessary
Yes. I just wanted to make it clear to those who havent bothered to look up the words.
On March 21 2007 21:59 Metal[x] wrote: hermoine IS sexy!!!! i also remember someone saying they would bang jojo? shes was like 13...so i dont know why they were not banned for such things where chibi was?
Its been stated multiple times, chibi wasnt banned because people are ignorant about his views; the mod team (mostly) looked past that from the getgo and made the decision based on the fact that he couldn't just drop it, deviant or not. I mean yeah beyonder hardcore provoked him but it would have happened anyway most likely.
Like I said, Chibi was either naive or just didnt care if he was banned or not. I dunno.
Guys on the internet gawking over underage girls isnt all that big of a deal.. it happens every forum.. Just look at the Crazytown girl.. she was turned into a pedo icon and most of the internet embraced it Chibi took the educated approach to the subject and got shot down by people that are closed minded
its not a problem of intolerance, it's a problem of where you draw the line.
he was shot down by idyllic people who drew that line on the wrong side of Chibi and AFAIK asked him to no longer cross it. and he was incapable of doing so.
that's a mighty tall strawman thar. the line is clearly drawn by the harm principle, which in the case of chibi was an ongoing discussion. i see no reason to not entertain this discussion in a fair manner. what did chibi do anyway, post some videos to kiddie japanese girls dancing? what's wrong with that.
On March 21 2007 22:04 Masamune wrote: And speaking of new mods, imho, I think Steve should be reinstated as mod again.
i was never a mod you scoundrel!
Hmm, I always thought you were had something to do with the general forums and news at one time....figured it was some sort of mod related position all this time
On March 21 2007 22:02 Coagulation wrote: Guys on the internet gawking over underage girls isnt all that big of a deal.. it happens every forum.. Just look at the Crazytown girl.. she was turned into a pedo icon and most of the internet embraced it Chibi took the educated approach to the subject and got shot down by people that are closed minded
Yeah I remember the lazytown threads. That was fucking dumb I don't get what the hell was going on. Chibi did not (and does not) find her attractive btw. Can anyone link the original thread btw ? I want to check something
its not a problem of intolerance, it's a problem of where you draw the line.
he was shot down by people who drew that line on the wrong side of Chibi and AFAIK asked him to no longer cross it. and he was incapable of doing so.
I just want to make sure I understand your post. talking about pedophilia = sexual deviance = child rape?
How did you get here?
it wasnt about the rape it was about "Deviant" and why it isnt intolerance, but where to draw the line. Intolerance isnt the problem with deviance. there are obvious examples of deviance that should not be condoned. i.e. rape. however this examle of deviance is "on the fence" if i may use the analogy. My point again was that its not intolerance, its where to draw the line.
On March 21 2007 22:02 Gene wrote: rape is sexual deviance
its not a problem of intolerance, it's a problem of where you draw the line.
he was shot down by people who drew that line on the wrong side of Chibi and AFAIK asked him to no longer cross it. and he was incapable of doing so.
Thread Over as far as I'm concerned. The only thing continuing this thread is people arguing over where the line should be drawn, which is mainly a question of personal morals/ethics, which aren't likely to change based off of a discussion on the internet.
its not a problem of intolerance, it's a problem of where you draw the line.
he was shot down by people who drew that line on the wrong side of Chibi and AFAIK asked him to no longer cross it. and he was incapable of doing so.
I just want to make sure I understand your post. talking about pedophilia = sexual deviance = child rape?
How did you get here?
it wasnt about the rape it was about "Deviant" and why it isnt intolerance, but where to draw the line. Intolerance isnt the problem with deviance. there are obvious examples of deviance that should not be condoned. i.e. rape. however this examle of deviance is "on the fence" if i may use the analogy. My point again was that its not intolerance, its where to draw the line.
well, i think even a deviant issue can be discussed in clean and mature ways. take your example of rape, would one say 'LOOOL GANG RAPE PORN" is in the same style of discussion as "intricacies of statutory rape law."
further, it is not all too clear whether the 'where to draw the line' is entirely arbitrary. i would say whether the line is drawn at rape, or say, beautiful women threads, is significant. of course, as mentioned before, the line is not drawn on the issues alone. a discussion on 'the techniques of gang rape' would not be on the same line as 'merits of punishments for certain legal rape statues.' the way chibi introduced his 'deviance' is entirely capable of being discussed in a manner that would not even involve sexual elements, and i think to merely 'draw a line' over a simple topic alone is rather imprecise.
anyway, chibi was rather stormy and all that with all the drama around him, seems like he needed some sort of baby sitter to take care of his affairs. but then again, i dont think the drama around him was destructive, it might have gotten some people angry, but at the worst it was just unproductive flamefest, and that wasn't even started by chibi himself. the dramatic elements add to the forum's character
i chose to frame the discussion with the word 'deviance,' so perhaps i should clarify what is meant by it. deviance is basically matters of personal preference that do not involve harming others. the 'rape' situation is irrelevant to this, nor do i think that without expanding the definition of 'deviance' a discussion cannot proceed. the narrow case of deviance as defined here, without rape or murder etc, is perfectly fine as a generalization of chibi's situation.
the whole 'where the line should be drawn' arguement is farcical at best. Is anyone expected to take that seriously?
Does anyone here believe that discussing pedophilia is a rough equivalent of child rape? If we allow free discussion about that subject does anyone really think this is somehow going to lead to that?
On March 21 2007 22:02 Gene wrote: rape is sexual deviance
its not a problem of intolerance, it's a problem of where you draw the line.
he was shot down by people who drew that line on the wrong side of Chibi and AFAIK asked him to no longer cross it. and he was incapable of doing so.
Thread Over as far as I'm concerned. The only thing continuing this thread is people arguing over where the line should be drawn, which is mainly a question of personal morals/ethics, which aren't likely to change based off of a discussion on the internet.
I think people are seriously lacking some info when it comes to drawing this line...
First, half of the people think Chibi is some threat to children or are similarly misinformed.
Second, he is just honest about something that I'd bet my bottom dollar is really very common, even among the people condenming him. To varying degrees, but as I already brought up in this thread, "Hermione"/Emma Watson is thought to be sexy by a lot of people. She was one of the top ten googled people. I wonder why? Chibi is basically the same as all those millions of people except he isn't ashamed and explored his feelings.
On March 21 2007 22:35 fusionsdf wrote: Does anyone here believe that discussing pedophilia is a rough equivalent of child rape?
Apparently!
I think all arguments have been made for Chibi, but good arguments are irrelevant.
Somehow a small group of whiny people getting upset over Chibi was thought to be a problem on the site and instead of being told to STFU and deal with it they were listened to for some reason.
I'm going to bed and I'll leave with one last attempt at a defense...
If you think this is sexy, you're just like chibi and I hope your banned.
Testie's response is so typical of the thread. Chibi supporters own every argument in every conceivable way and then the people on the other side come up with something completely worthless.
On March 21 2007 22:52 Servolisk wrote: Testie's response is so typical of the thread. Chibi supporters own every argument in every conceivable way and then the people on the other side come up with something completely worthless.
exactly the staff has done nothing but sit back and probably not even read this specially the hypocrit who banned him in the first place and the only "come back" we get is Testie, an even bigger lying hipocrit who tries to hijack the thread with bullshit like "guess 3 stimey accounts to be a mod"... then the next page he comments on how the thread how lost track... fuck you.
I think it is obvious a lot more people liked him than some little annoying minority that got him banned, which appeared to weigh into things because apparently Chibi was a trouble maker for too many people.
Regardless of what you guys think, I am sure most of the mods have a much better grasp of whether or not chibi's overall behavior since he has became a member of this site is deserving of a ban or not.
chibi is harmless in certain environments, and he is privileged to the environment, like any other poster on the site. the privilege to not be flamebaited and mischaracterised and insulted.
i hope u typed that to 1k posters... if you seriuosly think a person like Beyonder or most of the mods who wanted him out has a better grasp of things if he deserved to be banned you gotta be fucking kidding me travis
The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
Baal you are full of rage... chill out dude, maybe beyonder did fuck up with his reasons to ban Chibi, but nothing you can say will change what happened, leave that to Eri, twisted or the other admins that agree with you and let them settle this thing.
Chibi was hilarious as hell and i also think he didnt harm anyone even if he had different likings and such, but i also think he was forgiven a lot of times but lets hope this gets solved asap
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
It can still be justified because he violated the agreement that he'd not refer to anything pedophilia related because it causes arguments. The fact that Beyonder was provoking him and that Chibi refused to engage in Beyonder's flame war, instead conducting himself respectably and passively doesn't change the fact that he posted on the subject. And in doing so he gave Bey all the justification he needed. Sure, that rule was created for Chibi to stop him causing arguments, and it is clear that in this case he didn't cause the argument. But he still broke the rule. If you read the thread you see that Chibi was the only poster there to give a well cited, response that was based upon something more than opinion. You'll see that Beyonder was flaming him for no reason and that Chibi refused to get into a flame war. But he still responded, albeit in an adult and restrained fashion. The rule for him should have been "do not refer to pedophilia, or the sisters of others, in a manner that will provoke arguments". It was however "do not refer to pedophilia".
He broke it and will stay banned because of it. It is however, only just if you believe that the rule was worded correctly.
Edit to clarify: I believe that he did not break the spirit of the rule, that his actions were in no way provocative and that he acted commendably in the face of provocation. I believe the intent of the law matters more than the precise word of the law precisely because of cases like this, where you would punish him for no wrongdoing simply to uphold a rule. I would not have banned him. But I'm no mod and my thoughts on the rules are only my opinion.
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
On March 21 2007 23:11 baal wrote: i hope u typed that to 1k posters... if you seriuosly think a person like Beyonder or most of the mods who wanted him out has a better grasp of things if he deserved to be banned you gotta be fucking kidding me travis
Who has had to close the threads every time he's posted drunk. Who's had to deal with his spam and temp ban him. Who's had to warn him when he's crossing the line?
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
It can still be justified because he violated the agreement that he'd not refer to anything pedophilia related because it causes arguments. The fact that Beyonder was provoking him and that Chibi refused to engage in Beyonder's flame war, instead conducting himself respectably and passively doesn't change the fact that he posted on the subject. And in doing so he gave Bey all the justification he needed. Sure, that rule was created for Chibi to stop him causing arguments, and it is clear that in this case he didn't cause the argument. But he still broke the rule. If you read the thread you see that Chibi was the only poster there to give a well cited, response that was based upon something more than opinion. You'll see that Beyonder was flaming him for no reason and that Chibi refused to get into a flame war. But he still responded, albeit in an adult and restrained fashion. The rule for him should have been "do not refer to pedophilia, or the sisters of others, in a manner that will provoke arguments". It was however "do not refer to pedophilia".
He broke it and will stay banned because of it. It is however, only just if you believe that the rule was worded correctly.
Chibi told me a while ago that his warning was worded differently (see my earlier post).
I think it is interesting to note that nobody was going to ban Chibi for him bringing up a study about pedofilia in an argument about sexual deviance. Beyonder wasn't even going to, or else surely he would of banned him on the spot and there would have been a lot less controversy. And if it wasn't ban worthy for beyonder then, I find it odd that it suddenly was the justification in retrospect. If Beyonder and co. hadn't turned it into a heated argument. Does anyone doubt that no one would of found this violating the terms of some agreement and/or ban worthy if not for the flame war started by people who already hated Chibi?
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
Haha I actually agree Bey is bit... immature, let me put it like this cuz I figure I don't have ur arbitor status to avoid a ban after this post. Damn I always hated baal and his asstard posts but I agree w/ him in this one. b-_-b
I may be out of place here, but this is my take on the situation:
Honestly it seems like the people who are angry with the ban are misunderstanding why the ban was in place. Being a "pedo" isn't the reason he is banned.. its the fact that he chose to excessively show it and point it out.. thats what got him banned. By doing that he also broke the agreement with the admins. and Mani posted what the agreement was.. i dont understand why some do not comprehend that (the agreement)?
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
Lol, I've been itching to say the same shit forever... but I didn't want to get banned for flaming >_<
But now that Mani said it... for real, shut the fuck up baal. You're a fucking ridiculously dumbass piece of shit.
And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
On March 21 2007 23:53 baal wrote: And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
do it, apprently it works like a freaking charm.
Cool it Kermit. This is a decent discussion, but not worth flaming Mani over.
On March 21 2007 23:50 baal wrote: Its YOU (nastymarine and others) the ones who dont get why Chibi was banned....
Chibi WAS banned because Beyonder hates Chibi.. and 2 idiots led him to Ban him not consulting other moderators... that is WHY he was banned.
Later he(and the other 2nd rate mods) found a justification for the ban.
PS: So many people have said "i agree with Baal" its freaking scary, even people who hate me.
You know nothing.
Who the fuck do you think you are to say the Mods that don't represent your opinion are 2nd rate mods? A discussion regarding whether Chibi should finally be perm banned was going on before Bey dropped the hammer on him and it is very likely that a majority supporting a ban would have been formed anyway. Also we certainly didn't pull a justification out of our ass like your "found a justification" suggests.
On March 21 2007 23:53 baal wrote: And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
do it, apprently it works like a freaking charm.
Ok sounds good. Anybody else want to insult mods for no reason?
ROMA! THIS IS ROMAAA! Representative democracy fighting at its best Oh is it the mods? DO mods know what we think? Do they regulate what we speak? Or is there anything more than speak? Are we just online with some posts? WHo the hell cares what we type? Why the hype?
GREEK! THIS IS ATHENAAA~ Directo mobocracy fighting at its best? Oh is it us, just us the posters? DO we know enough to rule ourselves? Or is there anything more than we can take? Who the hell cares what we type? On line? WHy the hype?
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
Trying too hard?
Am I? Why should I have to sit through 25 pages of ignorance from baal as he insults the people that built the very place he enjoys?
There was a time, his magical time, where that would never have happened. Perhaps I should just send him back there.
On March 21 2007 23:53 baal wrote: And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
do it, apprently it works like a freaking charm.
Ok sounds good. Anybody else want to insult mods for no reason?
On March 21 2007 23:53 baal wrote: And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
do it, apprently it works like a freaking charm.
Ok sounds good. Anybody else want to insult mods for no reason?
You should open a thread on bitch about your mods, it'll let the posters shout all their resentments out and you and the mods can collect valuable data. All for a healthier enviroment. You gotta let the bad air fart or it'll blow things apart. Make thread yea?
im sorry baal but its not like im siding with anyone. I'm showing a neutral perspectives cuz i don't visit enough to say anything more than that. what are you exactly saying by defending chibli? That the admins are being unfair? I dont see any real correlation with your argument.I dont see any real evidence. But then again like i said i dont really know enough at all.
On March 21 2007 23:53 baal wrote: And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
do it, apprently it works like a freaking charm.
Ok sounds good. Anybody else want to insult mods for no reason?
You should open a thread on bitch about your mods, it'll let the posters shout all their resentments out and you and the mods can collect valuable data. All for a healthier enviroment. You gotta let the bad air fart or it'll blow things apart. Make thread yea?
no way dude, bad idea.
of course we layman have no access to things we do not have access, but what is there for all to see is chibi's public behavior, which constitutes his content, so our discussion here is not irrelevant but redundant or incomplete. the incompleteness may be due to nonpublic agreements etc that were not broadcast, but these things have no positive effect on forum health or content.
On March 21 2007 23:53 baal wrote: And Manifesto please dramas against me in other time...
Unless you want to Ban me into a stupid rage moment because u dislike me and then find 2349824 posts of garbage (wich im sure u will find), mention how many warnings and bans ive had...
do it, apprently it works like a freaking charm.
Ok sounds good. Anybody else want to insult mods for no reason?
You should open a thread on bitch about your mods, it'll let the posters shout all their resentments out and you and the mods can collect valuable data. All for a healthier enviroment. You gotta let the bad air fart or it'll blow things apart. Make thread yea?
I liked baal (sometimes). While his tone was out of line, I still do think that Chibi should not have been banned. However, my opinion on this matter is worth nothing - I'll simply put it out there.
We should... have a vote!
But why DO people hold grudges against Chibi anyways?
This thread is really interesting, I'm glad I only made one post in it and didn't really get involved.
I think I've learned a lot about the community and it's views on oldtimers, funnymen, general characatures of our forums. Needless to say, I have a lot more respect for a bunch of you now than I did before in terms of your critical thinking about the site and your views on moderation.
Dispite the fact that I don't see much constructive value in this circus that has resulted from this ban, at least I was lucky to get that out of it.
On March 21 2007 23:17 baal wrote: The only admin with real leverage that supported chibi's ban was Twisted, the rest were the USUAL 2nd rate square heads who are even less improtant to the site than chibi himself.
Just Eri's opinion alone should freaking outweight any tantrum made by Beyonder or anyone else.
And yeah Beyonder DID fucking ban him stop excusing him, he did... retards like Incontrol and Testie managed to heat him enough to ban him in a anti-chibi thread FFS what kind of modding is this?....
Ok now that i banned him ill figure out WHY he should remain banned... oh and if he gets unbanned i will leave asap!!!... oh i take that back.
bullshit
Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
Trying too hard?
Am I? Why should I have to sit through 25 pages of ignorance from baal as he insults the people that built the very place he enjoys?
There was a time, his magical time, where that would never have happened. Perhaps I should just send him back there.
I just thought it was an elaborate way to say fuck you is all :o
And if you have read all 25 pages that's more effort than I've made.
On March 22 2007 00:11 ManaBlue wrote: This thread is really interesting, I'm glad I only made one post in it and didn't really get involved.
I think I've learned a lot about the community and it's views on oldtimers, funnymen, general characatures of our forums. Needless to say, I have a lot more respect for a bunch of you now than I did before in terms of your critical thinking about the site and your views on moderation.
Dispite the fact that I don't see much constructive value in this circus that has resulted from this ban, at least I was lucky to get that out of it.
i havent had to be this level-headed in a loooooong time
On March 21 2007 22:52 Servolisk wrote: Testie's response is so typical of the thread. Chibi supporters own every argument in every conceivable way and then the people on the other side come up with something completely worthless.
Servolisk, if you go back a few pages I posted the beating a dead horse because somewhere around the 480th post almost everything had been addressed and it was redundant to talk about it further. Not because Chibi supporters owned arguments. But because we had all come to a consensus that the guy shot himself in the foot and was already on the chopping block.
I'm not trying to be judgemental, but look at his TL gallery pic. He looks like an overall pissed-off-at-life dude... to me anyways.
Besides that, Mani pretty much summed up very well what I thought about him anyways. Only the dictionary can do better because I believe it has the word "immature" in it.
i didn't have a good opportunity to articulate myself in my earlier post. i was at work and so was pressed for time, and only spoke on the emotion i was feeling at that moment. it accomplished nothing and probably offended some. My apologies.
A better attempt at articulating my thoughts:
i understand the reasoning behind chibi's ban. It has nothing to do with whether chibi advocates pedophilia or not, it has to do with Chibi being given a multitude of chances to ammend behaviour mods found poor. Chibi failed to comply to the terms the mods set, and, after more leniency than any other poster has seen, was finally banned.
I get that part.
What i don't understand is what put Chibi on such bad terms to begin with. How can someone possess so immense a distress for chibi because of this?:
Okay well I start rambling here and there as usual but you certainly get what you pay for. I HAVEN'T read the thread yet, and a lot of the below is simply pure and simple responses and explainations and clarifications. Whether you want to hear them or not, obviously some people are interested because otherwise they wouldn't have said all this shit in the first place.
a) I have never promoted paedophilia. I have discussed the possibility of younger people being capable of mature consent. I eventually concluded that the AoC must remain quite high and inflexible, for various obvious and less-obvious reasons, however also that I feel more research needs to be done into exactly what age it should be maintained at.
Just look at the states for example. Homosexuality, oral sex, intercourse.. ages of consent vary massively. I've seen countless posts on youtube and whatnot, referring to someone being a "disgusting pedo who should be locked up" for admiring someone 15 or 16. Sound familiar?
(If you don't understand, I was comparing those sort of people to the sort of people who find 15-16 year old girls attractive, but at the same time bash on people who like 12-13 year olds.)
b) Several times I told people to cut the crap with the pedo jokes and bs about me.
c) I have not posted anything illegal. I agree in hindsight my "do you find these girls attractive?" thread was in poor taste. I didn't have my own computer during those months and kinda rushed into it with the very limited time I had. I've explained before that I posted it only because it followed two other threads of the same theme ("do you find this woman hot?").
d) I'm seriously getting the impression that some people are reading "pedophilia" to mean "kiddie fucking". What the hell is wrong with you? Paedophilia is neither particularly uncommon nor is it usually a persons "sole" attraction. I like women as much as the next guy (not Mora). I just have this extra attraction towards youth. And it's not necessarily anything more than an initial visual attraction.
I'm sure a lot of paedophiles find young girls attractive visually, but wouldn't want to date one because they're annoying and loud and dumb, for example. And if someone _is_ attracted to a young persons personality, that isn't so damn creepy now is it? Someone might like immature people because he's pretty immature, playful, careless, himself. Someone might like them because he likes to have someone to teach, in the same way a parent or school teacher likes to teach. It's not a "justification" - it's simply an explaination. And it's not THAT creepy.
I do think it's unfortunate, and can present a danger, and can result in a lot of depression and strife for the poor guy or gal that has to deal with it. But something not within someone's control is never a question of morals. What you DO with these people, and what they do with themselves, is connected with morality.
But paedophiles are not child abusers. An attraction to kids is far from uncontrollable. If you have any sexual attraction that is uncontrollable I think you should seek help.
We're talking about someone who is inclined to argue - knowing that he may well be wrong - that some young people are capable of consent. What's the big fucking deal? I'm not talking about raping 8 year olds here.
e) As far as I'm aware I always use rationality to "justify" things. I don't say they're good but I do point out the reasons they occur, and the reasons they might be considered ok. I am always open-minded to people who respond in a similar manner, and I've expressed that I don't trust in my own opinion 100%, but that I do value it since I consider myself informed.
Which is a good thing, don't you think? I've spent a good few hours on a certain child modelling forum recently and have been discussing several things about the law and morality, and often explaining to people (paedophiles) why they are wrong to think what they do.
Simple examples: should child glamour modelling in any form be legal, since it is a "sexual activity"? If so, should it be controlled with a specific age of consent? What about beauty pageants? What about Dakota acting in that rape scene in her new movie? Does the fact that the movie has "artistic value" protect her from the potential abuse she might suffer in being involved in something sexual and disturbing? If she's having some special psychological evaluation applied to answer these questions, then can't the same be done for child models and the like?
Discussing these things and actively changing people's opinions for the better is kinda fun. It means a 19 year old might not go to jail for "molesting" his 14 year old girlfriend, and it means some poor 5 year old might not be dressed up in a bikini and made to pose erotically for some sick fucks to jack off over.
I'm gonna finish up with some responses to Testie and Incontrol coz they posted a fuckload of trolling lies and I wasn't able to respond and show people this before. I could respond to them much more, but won't.
"Second off, he continually brings it into threads that aren't related. Is homosexuality hereditary? Is this relevant?"
Yes it was.
"A good % of his posts tend to have the underlying quality of pushing his viewpoint on other people which has already been majorly rejected."
Well, I was involved in 4-5 debates about the subject. You can read them for yourself to see the content, tone and context of each of my posts. They are 12-19 pages long each so you've got some reading to do if you want to know the truth. I was talking to people who think "giving out condoms in schools is promoting paedophilia".
"People are trying to do what is right for their children, while his whole viewpoint takes away from that ignoring them."
What the fuck is my "whole viewpoint" anyway Testie? Do you know or are you making things up?
"Chibi's viewpoint condones it and finds it socially acceptable."
What viewpoint? What do I condone? If I've said something is socially acceptable then I must have been talking about a place where it is socially acceptable, by definition.
"finds it socially acceptable to sleep with a child"
???
"He can make all the excuses of, "if they are mentally grown and willing it should be alright. There are some very mature kids out there.""
Well, sure, that's the whole arguement for any AoC ruling. Shut the fuck up.
"For all we know his viewpoint is that of, "If I ever had a child sure, why not slip it into a kid that won't remember that i'm doing it. No harm done, and I get to experience it"."
Okay well now we've concluded that you have no idea what my viewpoint is, nor indeed know anything about me whatsoever, how about you stop posing defamatory trolls like this.
Regarding Incontrol:
Can't really be bothered with you. People should read all the giant pedo threads if they want to know what actually went on in them, as I've said before. I think the latest one started off about bestiality?
"Wasn't it like, litterally only a few months he made that thread that was completely saturated with young girls half nude and straddling sculpture penis' etc?"
I posted multiple half-nude girls? No? And the picture of sculpture penis wasn't posted by me afaik.
"He also asked "Who wouldnt stick their penis in that" in referance to an 11 year old girl."
Yeh, that was Saaya Irie, the young supermodel in Japan who has been posted about before because she has enormous breasts. What's your point? All that stuff was stupid and I got banned for it, as far as I can recall, months ago. Here's that thread:
LASTLY (omg), here is a brief summary of my "viewpoint". For those that didn't get it the first 600 times.
"chibi has made his views very clear in the past numerous times and does not condone relations with a child. he has concluded that some 13 year olds are able to consent, and that it is possible for them to have a healthy relationship with an adult, but that it is extremely unlikely in a society totally unsuitable for such a relationship, and in a society where young people are generally very immature (eg USA).
he has concluded that such oppertunities cannot exist because the law must be set at a particular age, however he would like to see more research into what age is suitable for our ever-increasingly mature population"
NOTE: this post has been only a clarification or response to certain things. As far as I'm aware, I'm banned for multiple fuckups - NOT because other people dislike or misunderstand me. Now I'm gonna go read the thread.
Chibi is harmless at worst. If you don't like his jokes, don't read them. If they are particularly vulgar, close the thread (these are extremely rare). He is an intelligent individual who is capable of articulating himself on a subject that few people know anything about. The motivation of society to understand his sexuality is worse than that of the transgendered and asexual communities. He provides a new perspective and some well thought-out ideas. I value that.
I'd like to believe that throughout my stay at TL.net, that the majority of readers have gotten something out of my posts other than disgust; some insight into what it's like to have a deviant sexuality; to be different and not afraid to show the world how wonderful (in addition to being cruel, unjust, exciting, interesting, and terrifying!) it is.
And i don't see Chibi to be all that different than myself. If anything, i believe myself to be alot more vulgar than Chibi a large majority of the time. I have never recieved a temp-ban. I have never even recieved a warning. What have i done to deserve such charity?
It bothers me that such a quality poster leave the place that has been my homepage for the past 4 years without ever understanding the instigation of such warranted distress.
I have never seen chibi has anything but informative, funny, and harmless. While i don't expect my opinion to be the only one and thereby shared by everyone, i don't understand how the majority of mods would disagree with that perception to such a degree that it warrants more temp-bans than any other user in the history of tl.net.
I have almost posted about pedophilia before on many occaisons. However, due to a lack of ability to express my thoughts on it in a way i'd like to share, i have often deleted such posts before hitting the 'post' button. Would i have been given a warning and subsequent temp-bans for pursuing that topic as diligently and vocally as i have homosexuality? Would i be granted yet even more charity than i have all ready obviously recieved?
I am confused. If a mod could enlighten the situation so i could better understand, it would be greatly appreciated.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
On March 22 2007 00:11 travis wrote: baal I don't know why the mods are just taking it but if it was me I would temp ban you for behaving like you are.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
the difference is manifesto puts countless hours of straight-up work into this site, kwark. a moment of frustration from manifesto7 is the easiest thing in the world to overlook
On March 21 2007 22:52 Servolisk wrote: Testie's response is so typical of the thread. Chibi supporters own every argument in every conceivable way and then the people on the other side come up with something completely worthless.
Servolisk, if you go back a few pages I posted the beating a dead horse because somewhere around the 480th post almost everything had been addressed and it was redundant to talk about it further. Not because Chibi supporters owned arguments. But because we had all come to a consensus that the guy shot himself in the foot and was already on the chopping block.
"We had all come to a consensus" ...
Anyway, it is annoying when you type out a long and thorough argument and all you get some eye-offending picture of a guy slapping a horse in ugly colors.
I perfectly agree with Mora's post. It's not like Chibi went around with binoculars and ogled sixth graders at the local elementary school. Even if his tastes were different, it wasn't like he caused harm due to it.
I also agree with Kwark entirely. Mani, you should have just temped him instead of flaming. And if you chose to flame, you shouldn't have temped him. Or at least you should have waited for someone else to do it.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
the difference is manifesto puts countless hours of straight-up work into this site, kwark. a moment of frustration from manifesto7 is the easiest thing in the world to overlook
I'd have to be mad to deny the huge contribution Mani puts into this website and a few posts ago I told baal to cool it. But does that give him the right to flame and then ban when they flame back? I think no.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
Stfu... that's excellent modding in action.
I don't see how you consider it excellent modding. I like mani, I respect and appreciate what he does for this site. Yet, in this case, I don't think he's in the right.
And why do you keep sucking up to him? Almost everything you've said in this thread is something practically worshipping mani -_-;
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
the difference is manifesto puts countless hours of straight-up work into this site, kwark. a moment of frustration from manifesto7 is the easiest thing in the world to overlook
That's certainly true and I respect Manifesto greatly for all he gives us. Moderation is a thankless job.
The problem is that Baal was complaining about Beyonder flaming Chibi and then subsequently banning him so Manifesto attempts to prove baal wrong by flaming him and then subsequently banning him? It just doesn't look right.
All baal was trying to attempt by way he worded his previous posts was to start some kind of uproar against the staff team, telling him to shut the fuck up was everything but out of line. He didn't stop so a ban is perfectly fine.
Baal was getting banned 10 pages ago. Whether or not I decide to flame him first is irrelevent. Does it look bad? Sure, I agree that it looks childish and probably is. Do I care? Nope. At least now he knows why he was banned.
On March 22 2007 00:24 Carnac wrote: All baal was trying to attempt by way he worded his previous posts was to start some kind of uproar against the staff team, telling him to shut the fuck up was everything but out of line. He didn't stop so a ban is perfectly fine.
"Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less."
Does that read as a) Drop it, I'm a mod. b) Let's have a flame war.
Quite clearly B. And if Mani says let's have a flame war he has no right to ban when baal takes him up on it. Had he not posted that baal would be indefensible. Had he not banned baal they'd be as bad as each other. Engaging in a flame war and then using the mod powers, abuse of powers.
On March 22 2007 00:11 ManaBlue wrote: This thread is really interesting, I'm glad I only made one post in it and didn't really get involved.
I think I've learned a lot about the community and it's views on oldtimers, funnymen, general characatures of our forums. Needless to say, I have a lot more respect for a bunch of you now than I did before in terms of your critical thinking about the site and your views on moderation.
Dispite the fact that I don't see much constructive value in this circus that has resulted from this ban, at least I was lucky to get that out of it.
i havent had to be this level-headed in a loooooong time
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
the difference is manifesto puts countless hours of straight-up work into this site, kwark. a moment of frustration from manifesto7 is the easiest thing in the world to overlook
I'd have to be mad to deny the huge contribution Mani puts into this website and a few posts ago I told baal to cool it. But does that give him the right to flame and then ban when they flame back? I think no.
baal attacked him and the mods, spammed, and acted like a retard. if that's not ban-worthy, I don't know what is.
well no the argument kwark and I are taking here is not that "baal should not have been banned", but rather "it was bad form to flame him before banning him, and he should have just been banned straight up"
It's a pic so nice it deserves to be posted twice! Meh, sorry. It's semi-awesomely-related. Credit all is to [angst]chrae] of course. I couldn't even draw the tongue.
Bey banned a user who was on thin ice. It may have been unjust, but chibi was all ready stepping on toes, he should have tread lightly. It may have been instigated by a moment of anger from bey, but bey's human. Get over it.
Baal on the other hand goes out of his way to insult the only important members of tl.net's community - the mods. He does not do this once or twice, but repeatedly throughout the whole thread. He makes no effort to express his feelings in an environment that is all ready under high stress. The amount of people bashing the mods (myself included) when they do this huge and rewardless job must be infuriating. Baal has acting like a jackass and got temp-banned for it. When baal has a chance to cool down and behave appriopriately, he will be back. This will also in turn give the mods a chance to calm down as well. Baal is an arrogant bastard who flames people every chance he gets. How can you not see a temp-ban was warranted in this situation?
On March 22 2007 00:29 Last Romantic wrote: well no the argument kwark and I are taking here is not that "baal should not have been banned", but rather "it was bad form to flame him before banning him, and he should have just been banned straight up"
Your right, it was. Im only human though, and sometimes it is going to happen.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
the difference is manifesto puts countless hours of straight-up work into this site, kwark. a moment of frustration from manifesto7 is the easiest thing in the world to overlook
I'd have to be mad to deny the huge contribution Mani puts into this website and a few posts ago I told baal to cool it. But does that give him the right to flame and then ban when they flame back? I think no.
baal attacked him and the mods, spammed, and acted like a retard. if that's not ban-worthy, I don't know what is.
My complaint was that Mani banned him after lowering himself to baals level. Last Romantic put it very succinctly with "he should have just temped him instead of flaming. And if he chose to flame, he shouldn't have temped him. Or at least he should have waited for someone else to do it."
Any other mod banning him would be far more respectable.
Seeing as the mods are people who have elevated this forum to make it what it is, and baal is just a slightly amusing, yet mostly annoying character who calls people who argue with him full of shit once he's made up his mind...
On March 22 2007 00:34 BroOd wrote: No one owes baal anything, least of all Manifesto, and he wants to throw a "fuck you" before he bans a huge tool then he's certainly entitled to it.
Of course no one owes Baal anything, though that doesn't necessarily mean he had to be banned either.
On March 22 2007 00:34 BroOd wrote: No one owes baal anything, least of all Manifesto, and he wants to throw a "fuck you" before he bans a huge tool then he's certainly entitled to it.
Of course no one owes Baal anything, though that doesn't necessarily mean he had to be banned either.
On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote: I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him?
It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
the difference is manifesto puts countless hours of straight-up work into this site, kwark. a moment of frustration from manifesto7 is the easiest thing in the world to overlook
That's certainly true and I respect Manifesto greatly for all he gives us. Moderation is a thankless job.
The problem is that Baal was complaining about Beyonder flaming Chibi and then subsequently banning him so Manifesto attempts to prove baal wrong by flaming him and then subsequently banning him? It just doesn't look right.
Baal´s problem was that he ignored what Mani, Naz and some other wrote why Chibi was banned and never got away from his meaning that the reason was Bey hating Chib. Nearly 10k post make you not a better person on this forum, just less easy to ban, not every spam is productive. It was not right that Eri posted intern Forum secrets, it just heated the discussion in the wrong direction. If things should be public i guess the majority of Mods would have voted for ;(.
You guys are guests here, Modorators make the rules, it is not the oposit.
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE 2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE 3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING 4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID 5. THOU SHALL NOT SPAM
Just the half of it but some maybe should go and read it again to remind them where and what they are.
It was a worthy ban. And when you're doing it that way, it's not lowering yourself to baal's level. It's called being hilariously accurate and to the point while ending the discussion so as to not continue the shit fest.
On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote: I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him?
It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
Man there will be another 30 pages for Baal's banning now. Maybe it's this thread but no one seems capable of changing their minds on anything here... giving up now (only reason I kept at it so long was insomnia). :o
On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote: I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him?
It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick.
"When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse."
How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him?
"If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time."
Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong.
Beyonder, a young cop, manages to bust "Chibi" Owens, the long time criminal with an equally long rap sheet. However, in the arrest, he makes one fatal mistake: he forgets to read him his miranda rights! Owens's lawyer and long time partner in crime Robert Baal manages to rouse support from the press and the public for Owens's case, insisting that his rights have been violated, and the city council is forced to intervene.
The mysterious mayor of the city issues a statement through the head warden, Emmanuel Festo, that Chibi Owens will not be released.
Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it. Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default.
On March 22 2007 00:59 MYM.Testie wrote: Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it. Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default.
Even though I vowed an exit from the community, I too am allowed to realize my decisions are rash and without thought. I realize that I overstepped my bounds earlier with posting about chibi, but as an outsider looking in the solution to the problem is a very easy one: the ban was justified and finalized.
I completely understand though that the decision is not completely binary in correctness, as many people have formed relationships that are affecting their posts and views.
I do not understand though how, as everyone has said, people continue to disrespect the moderators who have put hours into making this community what it is. Yes, these people are not the only ones who contribute, as it takes many more personalities and individuals to truly make a community what it is. But these people were picked/chosen to serve the community selflessly. It doesn't matter if you guys don't like who is in charge, they are still the ones in charge and they should be respected.
As to Mani's flame before banning baal, how is this not justified or warrented? Everyone knew baal's ban was coming, and if you didn't you really need to reanalyze the situation. Next, who said that the moderators weren't allowed to be human and get upset? They should remain partial in most instances because they are in a position of power, but asking them to not have emotion is completely ludicrous. I am actually very impressed with the way the mods have conducted themselves during this entire situation. I highly doubt if anyone of us "mortals" were in the same situation we would act the same. I surely can tell you I wouldn't have remained so calm after being blatantly disrespected for so long.
These forums are not a right, they are a privilege. I for one want the continued success of this community and a place to come to for relaxation. So although I know I am a "nobody" I highly encourage everyone to sincerely stop and think before continuing to argue and segregate the community.
On March 22 2007 00:59 MYM.Testie wrote: Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it. Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default.
classiest place = hooters?
nal_rA 40++ chicken wings?
That was blizzcon in Hollywood or L.A. or whatever. We weren't in Anaheim at the time. All the cities are like a mix just a highway away from eachother. The koreans demanded hooters. When Reach demands hooters no one can stop him. + Leg is a known pervert and he's tall an strong.
It was a very upscale place Mani took us too. It was a french version of hooters. 3x the price with finer drink and no ID necessary.
This story may have had liberties taken with it and distortions prevalent in it that I am completely aware of.
On March 22 2007 00:59 MYM.Testie wrote: Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it. Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default.
classiest place = hooters?
nal_rA 40++ chicken wings?
That was blizzcon in Hollywood or L.A. or whatever. We weren't in Anaheim at the time. All the cities are like a mix just a highway away from eachother. The koreans demanded hooters. When Reach demands hooters no one can stop him. + Leg is a known pervert and he's tall an strong.
It was a very upscale place Mani took us too. It was a french version of hooters. 3x the price with finer drink and no ID necessary.
ahahahahahah that reach quote needs to be added to the current collection of mantoss ones.
bah I LIVE in california and I still don't quite know where is where ;o.
On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote: I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him?
It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick.
"When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse."
How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him?
"If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time."
Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong.
I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding.
If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it. -Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them -Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back." -Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him -Mani bans him
Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote: Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post.
And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed.
If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani. It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds.
I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light.
Stfu... that's excellent modding in action.
I don't see how you consider it excellent modding. I like mani, I respect and appreciate what he does for this site. Yet, in this case, I don't think he's in the right.
And why do you keep sucking up to him? Almost everything you've said in this thread is something practically worshipping mani -_-;
Worshipping mani. Lol that's insulting. No man is worthy of my worship.
Anyways, maybe the reason why you think I'm worshipping him is because I agree that his decision is a good one. There are alot of immature kids in here. Mani is a grown man. That says alot in itself. Kids in here need to stop thinking they've lived life and that they're some wise guru living on a mountain somewhere that people trek to for good advice. While I disagree with Mani on alot of things, the way he handles himself is a lot better than 99% of the people in this forum. And exactly it. I don't worship him, but I respect him for how he handles himself. And believe me... I disagree with him on alot of things, but that's part of respect.
But none of that even matters. The bottom-line is that he's Mani. He bans you for any reason... too bad. Deal with it. Not that that's what he does.
On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote: I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him?
It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick.
"When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse."
How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him?
"If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time."
Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong.
I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding.
If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it. -Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them -Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back." -Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him -Mani bans him
Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
You think that the response was the sole reason for the ban?
On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote: I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him?
It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick.
"When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse."
How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him?
"If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time."
Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong.
I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding.
If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it. -Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them -Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back." -Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him -Mani bans him
Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
You're reasoning makes since but one of your premises is false therefore rendering the entire thing invalid according to logic I believe.
The timeline that you posted is a bit condensed and obvioulsy works in your favor.
Actual Time Line: -Baal disrespects mods -Baal disrespects mods -Baal disrespects mods ... 10 pages later -Baal disrespects mods *insert your timeline*
It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
Once again, please ... this is not a contest and a *winner* is not going to be declared. If anything we are all losers for letting this get as out of control as we have and failing to act as mature adults.
On March 22 2007 01:11 Kwark wrote: I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding.
If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it. -Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them -Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back." -Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him -Mani bans him
Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
Now you're just getting nitpicky. All that needs to be said is that Baal was asking for a ban with the way he had been posting in this thread, and that Mani was fully within his rights to post angrily in response to all of Baal's continued bullshit. Arguing about the timing and order in which certain things were said and certain acts were performed is just being unnecessarily critical. Sure Baal responded in an expected manner to Mani's post, but that doesn't all of a sudden make it the sole or even primary reason for Mani's subsequent ban.
The mere suggestion that Mani's angry post was made in order to goad Baal into doing something to further justify a ban is just ridiculous as Baal had done more than enough halfway through this thread. The idea that a fully justifiable ban suddenly becomes improper because of an angry post thrown in just before letting Baal know just how Mani felt is also ridiculous. Staff members are not politicians running for office who carefully calculate every move they make and every word they post to give out just the right message, we get angry and cuss people out if we think it's deserving.
Baal deserved to be flamed and banned, Mani flamed and banned him. Any further analysis of this is unnecessary and just makes you look silly. At that point you're reaching a point where you're criticizing just for the sake of criticizing.
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
The judge has a duty to act impartially. A divorce is a situation where he is unlikely to be impartial. A mod also has that duty. A flame war is a situation in which anger is likely to cloud his judgement.
Kwark, go watch judge judy handle business. We're all in the mods court room. And Judge Judy can sure as hell cuss a person out before delivering her sentence ordering someone to shut up. Baal was showing contempt of court continually.
Your analogy doesn't fit, and isn't related.
Telling someone who's acting like an idiot to shut up, and then force them to shut up is a bittersweet and hilarious justice.
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
Unrealistic expectations, bad analysis of what happened, and a bad analogy. Mods can and will flame as mods or individuals when the person being flamed deserves it. Again, we're not holding ourselves to some inhuman level of propriety. Mani's ban was not used "to win personal arguments", it was to shut Baal up because of all the crap that was coming out of him. There was no argument to win, Mani simply gave Baal a piece of mind before banning him. Stop trying to form some causal connection between the flaming and the ban, the flaming was incidental to it.
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
The judge has a duty to act impartially. A divorce is a situation where he is unlikely to be impartial. A mod also has that duty. A flame war is a situation in which anger is likely to cloud his judgement.
Explain your criticism.
A divorce is a life-changing thing. A flame war isn't (shouldn't be).
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
The judge has a duty to act impartially. A divorce is a situation where he is unlikely to be impartial. A mod also has that duty. A flame war is a situation in which anger is likely to cloud his judgement.
Explain your criticism.
A divorce is a life-changing thing. A flame war isn't (shouldn't be).
EDIT: For quote.
Tell that to the violent counter strike players who stab eachother after a match. ;D
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote: It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
The judge has a duty to act impartially. A divorce is a situation where he is unlikely to be impartial. A mod also has that duty. A flame war is a situation in which anger is likely to cloud his judgement.
Explain your criticism.
Let me put in your frame of logic. Since you want to use a faulty comparison, let me give you one too.
A police's job is also to stop crime, kind of like it's a moderator's job to stop stupid crap from being posted on a forum. If a policeman is being assaulted, should he not do anything back?
I don't know about where your from, but where I'm from... to assault a policeman is worse than assaulting a regular person. Of course, that comparison is faulty... but I'm not going to write an essay to prove a simple point.
i've always liked Mani's banning style because most of the time he gives a reason for it; Kwark why do you demand perfection from mods?their are not gods; they are humans and this is life; they can never please everyone; i know you have a opinion but don't start judging people based on that; my opinion is that Mani replyed him only because he is an old quality poster; he bothered replying to him because of some form of 'respect' to him; the fact that the reply turned out to be a flame is of no relevance (and if it is it's only in Mani's eyes, he will live with it)
On March 22 2007 01:11 Kwark wrote: Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
Mani did not engage in a flame war, he just flamed Baal before banning him. He wasn't inciting anything because he was already going to ban him anyway. The fact that Baal managed to get a response in before the ban occurred doesn't change anything.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
Again you're too caught up in the timing. Mani did not ban Baal "for flaming a mod", he banned him for all the crap he's said in this thread. Just because the last thing you saw before the ban was Baal replying to Mani's flame doesn't mean it was the reason for the ban.
Student: Mani you don't look good Mani: SHUT UP! OR I'll BAN U! You are even lucky you get a response back before I ban you! Student: *shivers and goes to a corner*
On March 22 2007 00:58 yubee wrote: Beyonder, a young cop, manages to bust "Chibi" Owens, the long time criminal with an equally long rap sheet. However, in the arrest, he makes one fatal mistake: he forgets to read him his miranda rights! Owens's lawyer and long time partner in crime Robert Baal manages to rouse support from the press and the public for Owens's case, insisting that his rights have been violated, and the city council is forced to intervene.
The mysterious mayor of the city issues a statement through the head warden, Emmanuel Festo, that Chibi Owens will not be released.
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
Forgotten in the emotions, this is the best post of the thread.
On March 22 2007 00:58 yubee wrote: Beyonder, a young cop, manages to bust "Chibi" Owens, the long time criminal with an equally long rap sheet. However, in the arrest, he makes one fatal mistake: he forgets to read him his miranda rights! Owens's lawyer and long time partner in crime Robert Baal manages to rouse support from the press and the public for Owens's case, insisting that his rights have been violated, and the city council is forced to intervene.
The mysterious mayor of the city issues a statement through the head warden, Emmanuel Festo, that Chibi Owens will not be released.
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
Forgotten in the emotions, this is the best post of the thread.
Don't really get why my moderating comrades are even responding to some of the instigations in this forum. Baal knows nothing about this whole ordeal. We have a topic in the Men in Red forum with 157 replies now where I made a very lengthy post trying to prove what drone did is wrong. I won't copy it for obvious reasons - I'd be doing the same thing as drone by making delicate staff issues public. By now he apologized for his actions against beyonder and baal is still feeding on drone's posts like a know-it-all when drone only posted a few tiny details of the whole ordeal to make beyonder look bad in front of the general crowd. Let me just say this again, in bold and upper case so you ignorants may finally see the light:
BEYONDER BANNING CHIBI PREMATURELY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION AT HAND, HE WAS CORRECTED AND HE APOLOGIZED AND WE CONTINUED THE DISCUSSION LIKE NOTHING HAD YET OCCURED
Considering baal goes out of his way basically saying he knows better for whatever fucked up reason is totally inconsiderate. If I read this before I would've temp-banned him faster than mani did. Whatever you people (Kwark) have to argue about, we don't give a fuck. We do as we see fit and if you don't like it, that's your problem, not ours. That's the way this forum works, if you don't like it, you can leave, we don't care a whole lot. But seeing as you're probably enticed to this forum a lil', I don't see you leaving. This belief is based on you trying so hard.
I'll copy a little paragraph from my post in the mir forum and leave it at that:
On March 21 2007 12:38 Twisted wrote: My view on things: I fully support beyonder and I agree that chibi should've been perma-banned way earlier. I think testie also brought up some good points. Baal is just an idiot who thinks the good ol' days were way better, but he totally missed the influx of new good posters and I think the quality of our forums has been way better lately than it was. Not that I read it much anymore, but when skimming topics there are just way more intelligent replies than it was before. I also agree with testie that chibi contributed nothing but his twisted views on pedophilia and drunken ramblings and the sane post here and there, but as I said earlier, you remember the stuff that's bad, not the good posts he made because bad posts tend to take notice way more.
And I don't think I have written any statement before about chibi in public. I don't know where you're coming from baal that I was pretty much the only one with a clear cut case while I actually was one of the mods that pretty much kept out of the entire discussion in the MIR forum until drone started publicly assaulting beyonder with half-baked stories.
I honestly fail to see what the big deal is here... If you were going to ban anyone that said something that might be offensive to other people, you\'d have a pretty boring forum. I don\'t know much of this Chibi character, but truth is, whatever he posts, it\'s easy enough to simply ignore. For heaven\'s sake... it\'s the internet. God knows there are more than a few strange people out there. The key is simply avoiding them or ignoring them. If he wants to post his sick and twisted views regarding pedophilia, by all means let him. Sure it might offend some people, but when you deal with a community, people will always be offended by one thing or another anyway. If anyone gets heated up about it, it\'s honestly their own fault for being bothered by some random person online. I don\'t see why everyone\'s getting all riled up about this. It\'s not that I support pedophilia or anything, but I believe that people for the most part, should be allowed to speak their mind, particularly on a forum where a post can easily be skipped or ignored. If you get bothered by it, it\'s only because you\'re letting yourself be bothered by it.
Pedophilia and Chibi aside, there are plenty of things that I have read on the forums that offend me and I know everyone has been offended at one point or another by a given post. The reason for this is simply difference of opinion and everyone\'s need to defend their own point. You can say that one day I\'ll have a daughter (I\'m 22 btw.) and I\'ll understand that I wouldn\'t want people talking about molesting little girls, but at the same time, I wouldn\'t want people talking about drugs or homosexuality either... While it bothers me, I\'m not going to go out of my way to try to shut someone up because that\'s their own personal opinion and I\'m sure that many things I say and believe would probably offend that person as well.
All that being said, I do believe there must be a given set of rules and certain codes of conduct established and enforced for the betterment of any given community. But these rules must be enforced objectively and consistently for them to be taken seriously and in all reality, they are not. We all know and it is a well accepted fact that certain people are allowed to get away with more than others, namely the more respected members of the community. But should this be so? If anything, shouldn\'t long-time users and respected members be held to a higher standard? You can argue all you want about their contributions, but at the same time, many of them are obviously not contributing when it comes down to maintaining a mature atmosphere on the forums. If the most vocal and visible people are getting away with this and that, how can you expect others to take the rules seriously? This is one of the problems I\'ve seen from skimming this topic. There seem to be people complaining that Chibi was banned while some other people that said worse things or equal things weren\'t.
I don\'t know the entire situation and I don\'t pretend to know. Like I\'ve said, I don\'t know who Chibi is and I\'ve not read his posts aside from the quotes that were in the OP. While I don\'t agree with his views, I certainly don\'t find them so offensive as to be bothered by them. Worse things are said everyday all around us. Why let yourself be bothered by something so simple as this? I honestly don\'t think he deserves a ban just for trolling and posting his opinions and stupidity and even if banned, certainly not perma-banned. I\'ve not been around TL.net long enough to \"remember the good old days\" and to me, the environment looks pretty much like any other internet forum out there. You have good posters and you have your share of idiots. If you want to place some threshold on the amount of stupidity that is allowed before being punished, you really have to set a clear boundary and enforce it consistently. This goes for both regular users and mods. Without that clear boundary, you leave yourself open for controversy and drama... Just my two cents, but if you\'re going to ban Chibi, I think it\'s important to state specifically what offense(s) he was banned for and consistently mete out the same punishment for anyone else that commits such an offense...
But then again, this is a private forum and therefore a dictatorship where right and wrong is determined by the people that own it, so whatever. I don\'t know why I\'m bothering to post.
____________________
*Edit: Just out of curiosity, how can you possibly ensure that someone is perma-banned? If you ban their IP, they can just change their IP. If you ban their username, they can just make a new one...
36 pages? Wow. Since this post will never be read in a thread this deep and full of good posts, I'll keep it brief: I don't necessarily agree with banning an infamous guy like Chibi (conflict/drama makes forums fun), but I also don't disagree that this is your guys' site and you're free to ban whoever you please.
As for people making personal attacks on Chibi - don't jump to conclusions about a person based on how they appear over the internet. Sure, the conclusions have merit, but I'd be willing to bet the real Chibi doesn't resemble this character you've made up in your heads.
God. If I got banned, nobody would give a shit. The only time Chibi wrote anything resembling a good post was when he argued for having sex with underage girls. Ninety percent of his posts didn't make sense. He made stimey's writing seem clear and concise. And yet all you guys get bent out of shape.
That said, I would prefer the forum with Chibi. I would've preferred it with hovz (teamliquid should try to be like USA; THEY'VE GOT CHARACTERS LOL).
Anyways, I'm going to make up some quirk so I can get a 36+ page thread!
There's no way I'm going to read this entire thread, but while I didn't mind Chibi's posts, I always thought that him being allowed back was a bit too lenient. I didn't particularly care about his pedophiliac comments, but his constant spamming always pissed me off.
On March 22 2007 08:34 tomatriedes wrote: Unban Chibi, change the name of the site to teamliquidpedo.net and be done with it.
you just had to say something stupid didn't you? You see if I was a mod I would have edited your post to the point where you were admittedly a pedo. Much better if you ask me.
On March 22 2007 08:38 itemlock wrote: I think more of this thread seems to be less about Chibi himself and more about the principles behind the reason for the ban.
On March 22 2007 08:34 tomatriedes wrote: Unban Chibi, change the name of the site to teamliquidpedo.net and be done with it.
you just had to say something stupid didn't you? You see if I was a mod I would have edited your post to the point where you were admittedly a pedo. Much better if you ask me.
Lighten up. This whole business shouldn't mean you're not allowed to make jokes anymore.
i don't mind chibi at own, he's quite funny sometimes. It's sad that we ban him permanently, drugs r illegal too, but noone care about posters who talk about drugs. I'd say ban him when he creates trouble, then unban him, don't ban him coz he post about pedolphile.
to make this clear I apologized about attacking bey in public, as I should have attacked bey in private instead. my opinion on how and why this ban happened stands.
"J (chibi) sier: and btw naz said he never explicitly warned me not to post anything regarding that subject. he just warned me not to do anything provokative or controversial or offensive"
from what I've gathered, this is correct, and thus means chibi did not even break the literal wording of his warning.
I dont know if I can start arguing about all this again, but my viewpoint is the same: Alot of people have done far worse than Chibi and gotten away with it, and seeing as now he didnt even break the vow he made it all just got a little worse.
On March 22 2007 10:24 niteReloaded wrote: pervert = ban kk thx.
this annoys me.
banning is at the discretion of the mods, sure. I may disagree, but the mods hold the power.
but people who don't know chibi starting to badmouth him... eh. it seems rather bm. at least 1/4 of the posts in this thread are just like "lol pedo ban" or "pervert bye" or something along those lines. Chibi really wasn't that obsessed, or even that much of a pedo in the first place.
I've been registered since November 2002 but I've visited since this site's inception. I have seen MANY posters come in and out. I remember most if any that I feel deserve to go and I can tell you without a doubt that Chibi is not among them. Not only that, but even though I've been here that long I have no fucking right to say who deserves a ban because I'm not a moderator.
Honestly, some of you believe that Chibi's posts were force fed to you as if you were mandated to read them. You weren't, you didn't have to click on the topic, and if you did and you were disappointed then go back a page and continue looking at other topics.
Also, it's not healthy to shun and shoo people who have differing opinions from you. If you are truly secure in how you feel about it then you wouldn't mind engaging Chibi in discussion and debate about AoC. To be honest - and I could be wrong - I think most of you are afraid that you might find that you're not so rigid about your opinion on the subject.
10 Amadement or w/e that bullshit is actually quite true. It IS their house, mods own, admins own. Imagine one day meat or nazgul pluck out the server, what we have now? Nothing. All the data all the threads all the discussions gone. Gone all gone.
Mods can do WHAT EVER THEY WANT.
no point argueing that.
We come here because mods are bit better than most, but they're still imperfect. Sometimes mods can have a fit and become a farting retard, that's okay. Most time mods here are composed.
TL.net is not heaven, it is... the hell a mud hole and we're stuck here cuz we havn't got anywhere else to go.
THere's love, you can find them here, somewhere, remember the joe guy who got stuck in ambsterdam or something and gotta get back to Canada? that was great.
Most time though people just come on the board and rant aggressively to blow times off, I guess that's okay too.
I think if we all accept TL.net is just as ugly as the common world, we will be happier.
On March 22 2007 10:24 niteReloaded wrote: pervert = ban kk thx.
this annoys me.
banning is at the discretion of the mods, sure. I may disagree, but the mods hold the power.
but people who don't know chibi starting to badmouth him... eh. it seems rather bm. at least 1/4 of the posts in this thread are just like "lol pedo ban" or "pervert bye" or something along those lines. Chibi really wasn't that obsessed, or even that much of a pedo in the first place.
they're just jumping the badnwagons :p Mods won't ban them because they're squirmishly slippery and with out a backbone. they're maggot fags, just ignore them. If the mods keep banning like this more ppl will get scared and turn sychophantic and become fag maggots. Let's hope the mods have enough senses.
On March 22 2007 13:48 travis wrote: a mud hole huh geeze i thought it was better than that
I think the negativeness in this thread made me less cheerful than usual, my wordings are -2 in the cheerfulness. If you wish you can manually +2 cheerfulness to my wordings to get my usual response. Sorry.
Well, as i a) didnt want to respond till after i read all the pages of this thread(my god so much time) i might as well partake. Im aware that what i say may overlap in multiple places that everyone else has said but still, another voice wont terribly hurt.
The ban on Chibi was a long time coming. He was an intelligent poster who went on drunken rants, derailed threads he didnt liked, and talked about subject material people didnt appreciate. That being said he was an intelligent poster, and a longterm one. Since the issue is that he was a long term poster is the main reason this is being discussed, just think about it. If any new poster showed up and did the shit he did they would get hit by either Bey, Twisted, Rekrul, Mani or any other number of mods telling them to stfu and that shit isnt want. Instead he was able to build a name for himself on the site for this shit.
With that name he abused it, he knew the boundaries and pushed them time and time again, and eventually led to the perma ban discussed. He had a history, and as stated by more than one mod, they were discussing banning him anyway, and Bey jumped the gun a little bit. His biggest defenders are people who are a) people with a history of being banned for being complete assholes and b) people who dont like that he was banned based off the post that he got banned on. Having more than one mod step up and say it was already being discussed and would have most likely have led to a ban in the future should fix the groans of group b.
People should just accept that hes gone, if you miss him, then try to talk to him away from tl, if you hated him rejoice, if you just ignored him, you wont really notice hes gone. What everyone should accept is the mods who keep the site running, who spend so much of their own time to keep it running for YOU made a call that they thought would better the community.
and if nothing else, i applaud Bey for sticking to his morals, the ban was coming and at least he did it over a topic that was deserving and pisses more people off than not. Homosexuality may be offensive to some, but pedophelia typically offends more people than homosexuality, its not something the western world accepts.
I know all you starcraft kids like little girls and cartoon porn, but honestly, stop incriminating yourselves.
I don't even have a real example but imagine your favorite comedian or world hunger humanitarian being caught jerking off to a picture of your little sister. All the prior accomplishments go out the window. Maybe someone else might find it funny...but you want to kill the mother fucker. If you don't find this guy fucked up put yourself in the shoes of someone affected.
If you don't give a fuck about the offenses that Chibi has committed, thats okay. We all have different tolerance levels. But rest assured there are people among us who do give a flying fuck, and we should respect them above some kid who draws disgusting cartoon pictures.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8396/lololololqu2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://park18.wakwak.com/~zip/img/40_040222_003.jpg)
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sure, its nice to have witty, funny, interesting posters, but what we dont need are people shitting on the forums and calling it humor. 
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Oolong_last_head_performance.jpg/180px-Oolong_last_head_performance.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/pedosmile1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/dennis_ferguson.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/richard_steve_goldberg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.calbearmnm.com/starcraft/tl/gallery/photos/Chibi[OWNS].jpg)
I really don't know though. Maybe this will just blow over.![[image loading]](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6191/tlnetsinxlx1.png)
![[image loading]](http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6425/beyonderyo3.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/zipwad/beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/228/mabifestofinaler6.jpg)
