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Ukraine Crisis - Page 495

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
May 05 2014 13:31 GMT
#9881
@ghan
no bias was detected, only positive articles. ghanburg stamp of approval. ;>
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
May 05 2014 13:33 GMT
#9882
On May 05 2014 22:26 PaleMan wrote:
either is Ghan is trolling hard or he is really propaganda-bot so he doesn't understand that all his post are pro-west propaganda

Whatever it is, it is extremely sad. Reading that KP article should make anyone throw up a little in their mouths. Won't be giving him any attention anymore anyway.
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 13:36:24
May 05 2014 13:36 GMT
#9883
ohh stop it Zeo, the only one who is spouting propaganda is you.

"Yeah buddy"
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 13:39:05
May 05 2014 13:37 GMT
#9884
Although the kyivpost article was biased, I don't see any false claims it made. Most posters (besides nunez/paleman) would probably agree that it isn't perfect, but it does a decent job summarizing what happened in Odessa.
5hh.gg
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 13:42:50
May 05 2014 13:40 GMT
#9885
great scenes!


funeral of terrorist (21 year old nurse) in kramatorsk
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15365 Posts
May 05 2014 13:42 GMT
#9886
On May 05 2014 22:31 Ghanburighan wrote:
On a related note, Zatic, if you're still reading this thread, could we have a policy against making wild accusations such as "UN report was handed to him before he left for Ukraine" - they are basically flamebaiting and nothing else.

I wish, but to be honest I don't see much hope for this thread. It goes at hundreds of post per day and 90% of it is people from diagonally opposed ends calling the other side out on lies and propaganda. It is near impossible to verify all claims for journalists whose job that is - much less for a volunteer mod staff.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
May 05 2014 13:43 GMT
#9887
On May 05 2014 22:37 Mc wrote:
Although the kyivpost article was probably slightly biased, I don't see any false claims it made. Most posters (besides nunez/paleman) would probably agree that it isn't perfect, but it does a decent job summarizing what happened in Odessa.

No it doesn't... at all... From its borderline conspiracy theory headline to the 80% of the article spent justifying right-sector savagery it shows the sorry state media in Ukraine is now.



Ukrainian MP attacks TV station chief for 'pro-Russian' stance | Boss assaulted and forced to resign

Ukrainian TV boss assaulted and forced to resign by far-right Svoboda MPs.
The head of Ukraine's state TV company has been attacked by at least three MPs from the far-right Svoboda party and forced to resign.

Members of Svoboda barged their way into the offices of Aleksandr Panteleymonov, the acting president of the National Television Company of Ukraine on Tuesday night.

They were angry that public broadcaster, First National Channel, had broadcast the Russian Parliament signing a treaty with Crimea on Tuesday.

Yelling and beating Panteleymonov around the head, the men accused him of serving Putin, while there were Ukrainians "dying at the hands of Russian occupiers" and called him "Moscow trash."

They then forced him to sign a letter of resignation.

Ironically, one of the men involved in the assault was the deputy head of Ukraine's committee on freedom of speech.

Members of the Svoboda party filmed the attack and then posted it online.
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
May 05 2014 13:52 GMT
#9888
On May 05 2014 22:42 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2014 22:31 Ghanburighan wrote:
On a related note, Zatic, if you're still reading this thread, could we have a policy against making wild accusations such as "UN report was handed to him before he left for Ukraine" - they are basically flamebaiting and nothing else.

I wish, but to be honest I don't see much hope for this thread. It goes at hundreds of post per day and 90% of it is people from diagonally opposed ends calling the other side out on lies and propaganda. It is near impossible to verify all claims for journalists whose job that is - much less for a volunteer mod staff.


That's reasonable, now that I think about it, it would strain the time of the mods well beyond what's sensible. Better don my info-war helmet

***



***

***
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
May 05 2014 14:32 GMT
#9889
Map of territory under the control of federalists

http://voicesevas.ru/maps/kontrol-territorii
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14106 Posts
May 05 2014 15:05 GMT
#9890
Most of us can't speak or read english well let alone russian please have putin traslate that zeo.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 15:27:35
May 05 2014 15:25 GMT
#9891
So actually this came up in german media today:

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-05/ukraine-putin-wahlfaelschung

The article states that a Russian council close to the Russian president states that the Crimean referendum was falsified and that the actual numbers were closer to 50-60% agreement and 30-50% vote turnout.
The article refers to :
(http://www.president-sovet.ru/structure/gruppa_po_migratsionnoy_politike/materialy/problemy_zhiteley_kryma.php?print=Y)
this document. Can anyone who can read Russian confirm this?
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 15:28:37
May 05 2014 15:28 GMT
#9892
Hardly a surprise if the polls were falsified. Standard policy to falsify elections in most Slavic countries. One of the few times a Slavic country has had an honest election is Serbia when it replaced Milosevic, and that was only after it got bombed by the Americans.
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 15:42:44
May 05 2014 15:36 GMT
#9893
@Nyxisto

The translation (and Paleman implicitly) confirms the veracity of the article (though paleman says it's written by super anti-Kremlin/pro-Western people). The question now is what exactly does this council do.

See my post below (you can see the discussion between Paleman and I in the nested quote, including a not too bad google.translate of the relevant section).
5hh.gg
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
May 05 2014 15:37 GMT
#9894
On May 05 2014 22:01 Mc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2014 21:23 PaleMan wrote:
On May 05 2014 21:05 Mc wrote:
at least you are curious enough to ask. Compare the numbers and tell me that it was a statistical error what Russia was reporting.... I honestly am surprised by what the report claims

I'll use a website that I assume you follow:
http://rt.com/news/crimea-referendum-results-official-250/

and the quote from Putin's website : link


Референдум

По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:

- подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;

- жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.

Предложения:

1. Продлить срок принятия жителями Крыма решения о сохранении гражданства Украины, по крайней мере, до 31 декабря 2014 г.

translation:
referendum

According to almost all survey participants and citizens :

- The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;

- Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .

suggestions:

1. Extend Deadline for residents of the Crimea decision to retain the citizenship of Ukraine , at least until December 31, 2014


"Putin's" website - good to know you know nothing about that structure
this council consists mostly of opposition who are very pro-western
i will give you just 2 names from the list of its staff:
http://www.president-sovet.ru/composition/3080/
http://www.president-sovet.ru/composition/25/

those 2 are the biggest rusophobes and west worshippers i ever knew
whatever USA does - they applause (even Iraq invasion), if Russia does something that USA is not happy with - they start to critisize russian position

so i'm a little surprized their "polls" didn't show that all crimeans wanted to be with Ukraine forever and ever


2 of the first 3 links on the website's front page seem to be anti-Ukraine and saying more or less what the Kremlin is saying.

I admit I had to run google translate because my Russian isn't very good.
http://www.president-sovet.ru/news/6079/
http://www.president-sovet.ru/news/6078/

So from what I see the council seems to be actually partially pro-kremlin.

From reading the first paragraph of the report in question, you can figure out who worked on the report.
Show nested quote +
Проблемы жителей Крыма
Настоящий обзор подготовлен членом Совета Бобровым Е.А., руководителем сети «Миграция и право» ПЦ «Мемориал» С.А. Ганнушкиной и адвокатом Сети Цейтлиной О.П. по результатам посещения городов Симферополь и Севастополь в период с 15 по 18 апреля 2014 г., встреч с должностными лицами органов государственной власти, духовенства, журналистами, общественными деятелями, адвокатами, правозащитниками и гражданами.


Neither of the names you referred to are mentioned. It appears to me that you failed to do your research properly.

Regardless, do you know what this councils purpose is? For now my assumption is this was a report prepared for the Putin government in order to establish actual facts on the ground, but as I said it's all murky for me due to me only knowing a little bit of Russian.


Paleman you didn't reply to this. Could you?
5hh.gg
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 15:56:43
May 05 2014 15:47 GMT
#9895
On May 06 2014 00:36 Mc wrote:
@Nyxisto

The translation (and Paleman implicitly) confirms the veracity of the article (though paleman says it's written by super anti-Kremlin/pro-Western people). The question now is what exactly does this council do.

See my post below (you can see the discussion between Paleman and I in the nested quote, including a not too bad google.translate of the relevant section).


Well this "Council under the President of the Russian Federation for Civil Society and Human Rights " seems to be an official government organisation, it also appears on the official English Kremlin site. How can someone claim that this is 'western propaganda'?

edit: thanks arbiter
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
May 05 2014 15:49 GMT
#9896
On May 06 2014 00:25 Nyxisto wrote:
So actually this came up in german media today:

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2014-05/ukraine-putin-wahlfaelschung

The article states that a Russian council close to the Russian president states that the Crimean referendum was falsified and that the actual numbers were closer to 50-60% agreement and 30-50% vote turnout.
The article refers to :
(http://www.president-sovet.ru/structure/gruppa_po_migratsionnoy_politike/materialy/problemy_zhiteley_kryma.php?print=Y)
this document. Can anyone who can read Russian confirm this?


The report was done by the council for development of society and human rights of the president. Related to referendum it states that
"most of the interviewed people and specialists think that
- most of people from Sevastopol (Crimea capital) voted for joining to Russia (50-80% presence on vote) while on the peninsula for joining have voted 50-60% from 30-50% presence on vote.
- people from Crimea didn't vote as much for joining Russia as for stopping the corruption and thieves from Donetsk's proteges. But people from Sevastopol voted specifically for joining Russia."

There are a lot of other observations regarding the situation in Crimea. Basically they try to identify the most urgent problems in region and make proposals regarding the solutions.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
sgtnoobkilla
Profile Joined July 2012
Australia249 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 16:04:48
May 05 2014 16:02 GMT
#9897
On May 05 2014 22:52 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/463313448513073152

Ukrainian MoD confirms that a 3rd Mi-24 was indeed shot down at Slavyansk. No casualties reported thus far as the pilots managed to perform a soft landing:
Donetsk Oblast: Militants shot down Mi-24 helicopter: no victims
Monday, May 5. SLAVYANSK – About 2.30 p.m. the Ukrainian Mi-24 helicopter was shot down while targeting and accomplishing task. The helicopter fell into the river. The pilots are undamaged. The operation team of the Anti-Terror Center evacuated them to the camp.

The wing aircraft is allegedly shot down by heavy machine gun.

Source

To add to that, another Mi-8 was also damaged by ground fire but managed to return to base intact:


Meanwhile the local hospital staff at Slavyansk are bringing in the first casualty reports; 10 injured and two dead. One of the two civilians that were killed was shot in the head:


Lugansk's separatists are also gearing up for battle:
Don't play with your food unless it plays with you first.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 16:34:10
May 05 2014 16:27 GMT
#9898
Why exactly do these fools want to join with Russia? Close proximity to Russia is correlated with higher levels of corruption, and economic failure. Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Chechnya, Georgia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. etc. The exceptions are China, Finland, and Turkey, but those countries have their own very distinct cultures and ethnicity independent of Slavic culture and Russian imperialism.

Outside of sentimentality, there's really no good reason why any group of people would want to be part of Russia. There is probably no better way of ruining your country's long term political and economic prospects than to attach it to Russia.
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-05 16:43:54
May 05 2014 16:40 GMT
#9899
On May 06 2014 01:27 marigoldran wrote:
Why exactly do these fools want to join with Russia? Close proximity to Russia is correlated with higher levels of corruption, and economic failure. Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Chechnya, Georgia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. etc. The exceptions are China, Finland, and Turkey, but those countries have their own very distinct cultures and ethnicity independent of Slavic culture and Russian imperialism.

Outside of sentimentality, there's really no good reason why any group of people would want to be part of Russia. There is probably no better way of ruining your country's long term political and economic prospects than to attach it to Russia.

Marigold.

Your posts make no sense.

1.)"One of the few times a Slavic country has had an honest election is Serbia when it replaced Milosevic"
WTF? Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia have had *very* fair elections for the past couple decades. As to others, I'm pretty sure Croatia and Slovenia have pretty functioning democracies. WTF?

2.)"Close proximity to Russia is correlated with higher levels of corruption, and economic failure."
Are you talking about geographic proximity? A lot of those countries don't share a border with Russia. Are you talking about pro-Russian policy? A lot of those countries are very independent of Russia.

I'm glad you're "pro-Ukraine", but you clearly don't know your European history.

As to having "no good reason" to join Russia - I agree with you for the most part except that in the short term Russia could heavily invest in the annexed areas in order to show the "benefits" of joining Russia.
5hh.gg
LocalPredictor
Profile Joined March 2014
Russian Federation17 Posts
May 05 2014 17:37 GMT
#9900
On May 06 2014 01:27 marigoldran wrote:
Why exactly do these fools want to join with Russia? Close proximity to Russia is correlated with higher levels of corruption, and economic failure. Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Chechnya, Georgia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. etc. The exceptions are China, Finland, and Turkey, but those countries have their own very distinct cultures and ethnicity independent of Slavic culture and Russian imperialism.

Outside of sentimentality, there's really no good reason why any group of people would want to be part of Russia. There is probably no better way of ruining your country's long term political and economic prospects than to attach it to Russia.


I'm not going to argue about corruption and stuff instead i'll tell you one thing. Those people want to be part of Russia because they feel inextricable connection with it and they are ready to build our common happy future sharing all the hardships with us. Happiness is not measured by money in the Russian lands. That's why we are invincible.
Empire shall rise.
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