On May 05 2014 07:34 zeo wrote: Heroic rescue operation by maidan supporters (don't know if its NSFW but if you don't like seeing people who fall from a burning building get hit with poles... don't watch)
It's pointless to argue with you, but I'll try anyways. 1.) Do you think if the 4-6 protestors stood 100 meters farther away that the vote would have turned out differently? 2.) Armed storming with *guns* of buildings is different from standing outside a building. Don't you agree? That's what happened in a lot of the Donbass region. 2.1)Some buildings were stormed during euromaidan. Parliament was not and they were free to vote as they pleased. 3.) Later on (March 28th I believe) right-sector attempted to storm parliament after the assassination of their leader. Turchinov decried the storming attempt (I linked an article earlier). It's curious that right-sector tried storming parliament only after the formation of the interim government. Why didn't they try storming it during the Feb 22nd vote...? 4.) The mayor of Donetsk resigning is irrelevant to what happened in Kiev. But I'll humour you on this one. Until we have evidence that he was forced to resign, I would assume that he resigned voluntarily. Similarly, until we have evidence that Maidan physically interfered with parliament, we can assume that parliament voted of their own volition.
Backed by Interfax. The military's apparently fighting up to 800 separatists with some mortars being fired (official statement straight from Avakov): Source
And the BBC:
Ukraine crisis: Rebels 'retreating' in Sloviansk Pro-Russian militants just outside Sloviansk are retreating amid attacks by Ukrainian troops, reports say.
Government forces have taken a TV tower in the suburbs and rebels were pulling back deeper into the city, the Russian Interfax news agency said.
Heavy gunfire could be heard, apparently closer to the centre than in recent days, a Reuters reporter said.
However, a number of Ukrainian troops have been killed in the fighting, the country's interior minister said.
Arsen Avakov could not give the exact death toll, but said up to eight Ukrainian troops had been wounded in an ambush.
Four ambulances were seen near the area and at least two separatist armoured vehicles and several rebels were seen in retreat, Reuters reported.
On May 05 2014 19:24 Mc wrote: @zeo That's your storyline. Mine is that they were there protesting.
What a difference the angle of a photo, and a little post-processing can make:
The image you sourced is this dark scary image which seems altered due to the strange colour hues. Another image of almost the exact same scene : image
“7th Self-Defense Squadron is stationed near the Verkhovna Rada. A squadron of the Right Sector is there as well,” says Parubiy. “Squadrons 19 and 3 guard the Presidential Administration, and Squadron 15, the Central Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.” ... Parubiy noted that right now, Kyiv must be in perfect order, better than ever, and then establish the same level of order in all of Ukraine.
It seems like the building was being guarded by euromaidan and right sector forces to ensure order. Berkut had apparently retreated at this point, so the presence of euromaidan/right-sector isn't surprising. It doesn't seem like there was any heckling of parliamentarians. I didn't see any guns in the images I found. A few protestors guarding the entrance wielding large metal shields. Really scary.
Also, it's normal for protestors to stand outside parliament in many countries.
edit: Oh, and order is restored to Kiev. How do we know? Because right-sector and people setting fire to police for 3 months said so. Hilarious
I do know, I live here. Order was restored the moment Yanukovich got empeached. That same day the numbers of people on Euromaidan swelled by 5-10 times, people were no longer afraid to be shot. The difference in security in one day was just breathtaking: from a warzone the place turned to the pilgrimage destination where entire families with children came to pay respects to the killed activists [there was no celebration of the empeachment].
On May 05 2014 19:24 Mc wrote: @zeo That's your storyline. Mine is that they were there protesting.
What a difference the angle of a photo, and a little post-processing can make:
The image you sourced is this dark scary image which seems altered due to the strange colour hues. Another image of almost the exact same scene : image
“7th Self-Defense Squadron is stationed near the Verkhovna Rada. A squadron of the Right Sector is there as well,” says Parubiy. “Squadrons 19 and 3 guard the Presidential Administration, and Squadron 15, the Central Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.” ... Parubiy noted that right now, Kyiv must be in perfect order, better than ever, and then establish the same level of order in all of Ukraine.
It seems like the building was being guarded by euromaidan and right sector forces to ensure order. Berkut had apparently retreated at this point, so the presence of euromaidan/right-sector isn't surprising. It doesn't seem like there was any heckling of parliamentarians. I didn't see any guns in the images I found. A few protestors guarding the entrance wielding large metal shields. Really scary.
Also, it's normal for protestors to stand outside parliament in many countries.
edit: Oh, and order is restored to Kiev. How do we know? Because right-sector and people setting fire to police for 3 months said so. Hilarious
I do know, I live here. Order was restored the moment Yanukovich got empeached. That same day the numbers of people on Euromaidan swelled by 5-10 times, people were no longer afraid to be shot. The difference in security in one day was just breathtaking: from a warzone the place turned to the pilgrimage place where entire families with children came to pay respects to the killed activists [there was no celebration of the empeachment].
Here you go, I'm sure it was safe for the ones doing the lynching
On February 27 2014 23:55 radscorpion9 wrote: I can't imagine why Russia coming to the support of civilians being attacked would be controversial, really it should be the duty of any country, in collaboration with the UN, to step in and protect civilians from unprovoked attacks regardless of who they are.
Although it would be kind of insane for Ukrainians to do any of that. Its up to their tenuous government to keep things civilized.
edit: Good point above though.
Because no such attack is taking place or has any real indication of being about to take place.
Random lynchings of people by newly formed "militias" on the streets of Kiev: + Show Spoiler +
The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (Polish: rzeź wołyńska, literally: Volhynian slaughter; Ukrainian: Волинська трагедія, Volyn tragedy) were part of an ethnic cleansing operation carried out in Nazi German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)'s North Command in the regions of Volhynia (Reichskommissariat Ukraine) and their South Command in Eastern Galicia (General Government) beginning in March 1943 and lasting until the end of 1944.[4][5][6] The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943 when a senior UPA commander, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, ordered the liquidation of the entire male Polish population between 16 and 60 years of age.[7][8][9] Despite this, most of the victims were women and children.[4] According to Grzegorz Motyka, the actions of the UPA resulted in 40,000-60,000 Polish civilian deaths in Volhynia,[3] and from 30,000 to 40,000 in Eastern Galicia.[3][10] Other estimates place the upper bound at much higher levels (see table).
The killings were directly linked with the policies of the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its military arm - Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal specified at the Second Conference of the Stepan Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) during 17–23 February 1943, or at least in March 1943 was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state. Not limiting their activities to the purging of Polish civilians, the UPA also wanted to erase all traces of sustained Polish presence in the area.[11]
German officials urging for diplomacy between Ukraine and Russia, amid the fire in Odessa and Ukrainian crackdown on insurgents in the east.
BRUSSELS - Germany has urged Russia and Ukraine to come back to negotiations in Geneva after a deadly fire in Odessa.
Its foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, told the ARD broadcaster on Sunday (4 May): “In the many discussions I've had in the last couple of hours, I've been campaigning ... to hold a second meeting in Geneva to follow up on the first one.”
He noted the meeting is needed “finally to make clear agreements on how we can put an end to this conflict and gradually move towards a political solution,” adding that “anything else would be irresponsible because it would only mean there are more victims.”
The EU, Russia, Ukraine and the US already held talks in Geneva in April.
But the Western allies and Ukraine accuse Russia of violating the April accord by continuing to foment unrest, while Russia accuses Ukraine of killing Russian-speaking Ukrainians.
In the worst incident since the insurgency began in February, 38 pro-Russian protesters died in a fire in a trade union building in Odessa, southern Ukraine, on Friday.
Ukrainian security services say the protesters caused their own death by throwing molotov cocktails, some of which backfired.
On May 05 2014 19:24 Mc wrote: @zeo That's your storyline. Mine is that they were there protesting.
What a difference the angle of a photo, and a little post-processing can make:
The image you sourced is this dark scary image which seems altered due to the strange colour hues. Another image of almost the exact same scene : image
“7th Self-Defense Squadron is stationed near the Verkhovna Rada. A squadron of the Right Sector is there as well,” says Parubiy. “Squadrons 19 and 3 guard the Presidential Administration, and Squadron 15, the Central Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.” ... Parubiy noted that right now, Kyiv must be in perfect order, better than ever, and then establish the same level of order in all of Ukraine.
It seems like the building was being guarded by euromaidan and right sector forces to ensure order. Berkut had apparently retreated at this point, so the presence of euromaidan/right-sector isn't surprising. It doesn't seem like there was any heckling of parliamentarians. I didn't see any guns in the images I found. A few protestors guarding the entrance wielding large metal shields. Really scary.
Also, it's normal for protestors to stand outside parliament in many countries.
edit: Oh, and order is restored to Kiev. How do we know? Because right-sector and people setting fire to police for 3 months said so. Hilarious
I do know, I live here. Order was restored the moment Yanukovich got empeached. That same day the numbers of people on Euromaidan swelled by 5-10 times, people were no longer afraid to be shot. The difference in security in one day was just breathtaking: from a warzone the place turned to the pilgrimage place where entire families with children came to pay respects to the killed activists [there was no celebration of the empeachment].
Here you go, I'm sure it was safe for the ones doing the lynching
or look at the video comparison Cheerio did further up on this page.
Zeo tries to paint a picture of all the pro-maidans as heartless killers, all the millions of them want nothing more than the death of Russian speakers in Ukraine, or at least that is what Zeo believe. On the other hand, some in this thread seems to think that every pro-russian is personally sent by Putin.
There are violence coming from both sides.
From what I can see, the big problems are the Russian army and the Russian propaganda in the TV etc.
On May 05 2014 19:24 Mc wrote: @zeo That's your storyline. Mine is that they were there protesting.
What a difference the angle of a photo, and a little post-processing can make:
The image you sourced is this dark scary image which seems altered due to the strange colour hues. Another image of almost the exact same scene : image
“7th Self-Defense Squadron is stationed near the Verkhovna Rada. A squadron of the Right Sector is there as well,” says Parubiy. “Squadrons 19 and 3 guard the Presidential Administration, and Squadron 15, the Central Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.” ... Parubiy noted that right now, Kyiv must be in perfect order, better than ever, and then establish the same level of order in all of Ukraine.
It seems like the building was being guarded by euromaidan and right sector forces to ensure order. Berkut had apparently retreated at this point, so the presence of euromaidan/right-sector isn't surprising. It doesn't seem like there was any heckling of parliamentarians. I didn't see any guns in the images I found. A few protestors guarding the entrance wielding large metal shields. Really scary.
Also, it's normal for protestors to stand outside parliament in many countries.
edit: Oh, and order is restored to Kiev. How do we know? Because right-sector and people setting fire to police for 3 months said so. Hilarious
I do know, I live here. Order was restored the moment Yanukovich got empeached. That same day the numbers of people on Euromaidan swelled by 5-10 times, people were no longer afraid to be shot. The difference in security in one day was just breathtaking: from a warzone the place turned to the pilgrimage place where entire families with children came to pay respects to the killed activists [there was no celebration of the empeachment].
Here you go, I'm sure it was safe for the ones doing the lynching
You're talking out of your ass. There's no evidence of any lynching. Here's the relevant UN High Commissioner for Human Rights report excerpt:
During its mission, the OHCHR delegation was informed that there had been some cases where members of the Russian minority have been harassed or even attacked, such as in the case of the attack against a member of Parliament. While it seems that these violations are neither widespread nor systemic, the delegation endeavoured to collect information on cases of incitement to intolerance or hatred and related violence against all minorities. It noted the following instances:
- Ukrainian businessman and politician who on 4 March was reportedly detained and beaten by the Crimean police and who allegedly called on the crowds in Independence Square, to “shoot at the heads of Russian citizens who are in Crimea… using snipers”;
- On 10 March, in Luhansk, Mr Oleh Lyashko, Leader of the Radical Party of Ukraine and a member of the Ukrainian Parliament, who is supportive of the new coalition Government, together with a group of armed men, allegedly detained Mr Arsen Klinchaev, member of the Luhansk Regional Council and activist of the Young Guard believed to be a pro-Russian organization. The detention was allegedly accompanied with violence and threats;
- In another alleged incident in early March, Mr. Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector, who declared his intention to run for presidency during the upcoming elections on 25 May, posted a call on a Russian-language social network vkontakte.com. He allegedly wrote: “Ukrainians have always supported the liberation struggle of the Chechen and other Caucasian peoples. Now it’s the time for you to support Ukraine… As the Right Sector leader, I urge you to step up the fight. Russia is not as strong as it seems”. The Right Sector later denied that its leader made such statements, explaining that his website had been hacked. According to other reports, Mr. Yarosh also allegedly stated that “non-Ukrainians” should be treated according to principles set forth by Ukrainian nationalist leader Stepan Bandera, although such statements were publicly refuted by Mr Yarosh himself.
***
Recent developments in the eastern part of Ukraine and in Crimea are likely to have an impact on radical groups with possible signs of nationalistic sentiments and rhetoric and therefore need to be closely monitored. The OHCHR delegation heard from various sides about concerns with regard to the “Right Sector”, a right-wing group that expresses paramilitary ambitions and is known for statements which could be considered extremist. Their active participation in the defence of Maidan and suggested increasing popularity are causing concerns for the Russian-speaking minority. While there has been no confirmed evidence of attacks by the “Right Sector”, including any physical harassment, against minorities, there were numerous reports of their violent acts against political opponents, representatives of the former ruling party and their elected officials. The role of the group during the Maidan protests was prominent; they were often in the first line of defence or allegedly leading the attacks against the law enforcement units. Their alleged involvement in violence and killings of some of the law enforcement members should be also investigated. However, according to all accounts heard by the OHCHR delegation, the fear against the “Right Sector” is disproportionate, although parallels have been drawn by some between this group and past right wing nationalistic movements at the time of the Second World War. On 1 April, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a decision by which all armed groups, including the Right Sector, must disarm. Source.
On May 05 2014 19:28 Mc wrote: @judicatorHammurabi
Unless the website "http://www.president-sovet.ru" is fake (it seems legit), then the report is true- just paleman doesn't know how to use the internet to check sources:
According to almost all survey participants and citizens :
- The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;
- Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .
show me the part where it says "referendum was falsified" - this is what Ghan's tweet is about
at least you are curious enough to ask. Compare the numbers and tell me that it was a statistical error what Russia was reporting.... I honestly am surprised by what the report claims
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
- подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;
- жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.
Предложения:
1. Продлить срок принятия жителями Крыма решения о сохранении гражданства Украины, по крайней мере, до 31 декабря 2014 г.
translation:
referendum
According to almost all survey participants and citizens :
- The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;
- Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .
suggestions:
1. Extend Deadline for residents of the Crimea decision to retain the citizenship of Ukraine , at least until December 31, 2014
right sector milita were leading marches in odessa yesterday according to howardamos and odessian newspaper. safe bet that they were the ones leading the charge during the murder of the 38 ppl in odessa.
On May 05 2014 21:05 Mc wrote: at least you are curious enough to ask. Compare the numbers and tell me that it was a statistical error what Russia was reporting.... I honestly am surprised by what the report claims
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
- подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;
- жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.
Предложения:
1. Продлить срок принятия жителями Крыма решения о сохранении гражданства Украины, по крайней мере, до 31 декабря 2014 г.
According to almost all survey participants and citizens :
- The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;
- Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .
suggestions:
1. Extend Deadline for residents of the Crimea decision to retain the citizenship of Ukraine , at least until December 31, 2014
I don't understand what is the point of this, it states " in the opinion of the asked people and specialists, people think so and so. " Doesn't say who the specialists are, what people were asked, how they were determined. I could call some of my friends in Odessa, and declare, in the opinion of asked people and specialists, people of Ukraine believe that Odessa should join Russia, along with Lugansk and Donetsk.
On May 05 2014 21:05 Mc wrote: at least you are curious enough to ask. Compare the numbers and tell me that it was a statistical error what Russia was reporting.... I honestly am surprised by what the report claims
По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:
- подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;
- жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.
Предложения:
1. Продлить срок принятия жителями Крыма решения о сохранении гражданства Украины, по крайней мере, до 31 декабря 2014 г.
According to almost all survey participants and citizens :
- The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;
- Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .
suggestions:
1. Extend Deadline for residents of the Crimea decision to retain the citizenship of Ukraine , at least until December 31, 2014
those 2 are the biggest rusophobes and west worshippers i ever knew whatever USA does - they applause (even Iraq invasion), if Russia does something that USA is not happy with - they start to critisize russian position
so i'm a little surprized their "polls" didn't show that all crimeans wanted to be with Ukraine forever and ever
On May 05 2014 21:19 nunez wrote: you don't think the fascist, ultranationalist, violent and armed militia was participating in the bloodbath? i think that seems like an easy bet.
Sure, it's rather a possibility, but evidence is needed to assuredly confirm. Let us not make another "Ukraine is fighting Russian special forces because Crimea."
i think that 2+2=4. there were right sector militia present in odessa, which is now clear as they are openly leading marches. it seems very likely that they were heavily involved in the riot. chucking molotovs into a building burning over 30 people alive, and beating people jumping from a burning building in the head with a blunt object isn't something you'd expect from a regular odessian.
@howardamos 18h
Here's one Right Sector unit: pic.twitter.com/oWURF3Rwm3 These Right Sector guys leading the way: pic.twitter.com/TNVk6SEyzX
if you assume that howardamos knows his shit, then it seems like an understatement to say that it is a possibility.