Ukraine Crisis - Page 492

On May 05 2014 17:42 zeo wrote:
How can anyone consider a government legitimate if there were armed groups of radicals standing outside the doors making sure it was voted in?

On May 05 2014 17:15 Mc wrote:


1.) Not irrelevant, he was not performing his presidential duties - like signing laws that were passed by parliament with overwhelming majority and that were part of a compromise that *HE* agreed to (i.e. I'll restore the 2004 constitution in order to appease the protestors).
2.) Uhmmm, he fled because he thought that he would be prosecuted/jailed if he didn't flee very quickly. He realized that his own party was turning on him. When were there actual "lynch mobs" going after him? No members of the government or parliament were physically attacked during EuroMaidan. You have no basis for that ridiculous claim, he fled not in "fear of his life" but "in fear of his potential life in jail".
3.) This is sighted by various sources, he was basically firing judges in order to increase his presidential powers. He was clearly an autocrat, firing judges, stuffing the cabinet with friends from the Donbas region. Yes I clearly don't like him. It seems like the severance pay for leaving, was basically a bribe to keep them quiet after being dismissed.
4.) Yes, I do say that the impeachment was unconstitutional. That is my whole f_ing argument : Although the impeachment was technically unconstitutional, given the turmoil in the country, the nearly 3/4s support of parliament, the fact that the president had fled and refused to perform his duties, the impeachment was understandable.
5.) Part 2 of my argument is that the interim government that was chosen afterwards was supported by 3/4ths of parliament (you don't need 75% to vote in a government, 75% is only for impeachment) and thus legitimate and representative of what the overwhelming majority of politicians in Ukraine was the best way to move forward.

and just to preempt a stupid "the West forced" them to do this. That's bullshit. Ukrainian politicians did not fear any military repercussions from the West. They did not fear a trade embargo from the West (like they knew could/would/did happen from Russia). What they feared was continuous chaos and a lack of resolution to the crisis. What the "West" proposed to them seemed reasonable to the *72 - 86%* majority of parliament and thus they chose to do what seemed most logical and get rid of the president, form an interim government, and prepare for elections as soon as possible.

On May 05 2014 17:42 Mc wrote:

Source?

On May 05 2014 16:58 Ghanburighan wrote:


Please, he gave a pretty good overview of what was going on. You respond with statements of your ignorance, questions and a straw man. If you don't know what's going on, don't post.

On May 05 2014 18:04 Mc wrote:
@zeo

Your point of protestors outside (including armed nationalist thugs) is relevant but parliament was still free to vote as it wanted. No violence against parliamentarians was recorded. Some were probably influenced by protestors outside, but I don't think it makes the vote illegitimate if there wasn't a more direct threat of force.

So far I've only found images of nationalists outside parliament from later on :
http://rt.com/news/kiev-parliament-protest-resurge-873/
When was your image from -could you provide the direct link?
I'd like a link from around feb 22nd-23rd to definitely be able to state that they were outside parliament during the vote in question.

On May 05 2014 17:56 Feartheguru wrote:


Please, I responded with a retort, a sarcastic question and a "pretty good overview" of his words. You respond with some garbage like also. If you can't read, don't post.

With Russian media referring to it as "coup-appointed", Ukraine’s government has failed to convince many of its citizens of its right to be in office. Although its constitutional foundations are not rock-solid, every effort was made to embed them in strong parliamentary foundations. On February 21st, as part of a deal with then president Viktor Yanukovych, Ukraine's parliament voted to reinstate amendments to the constitution, which had been made in 2004 and cancelled in 2010. These shifted the power to nominate most of the cabinet from the president to the parliament. Mr Yanukovych did not sign this resolution, and fled.

There were no constitutional provisions for this: Mr Yanukovych was neither dead nor sick, and he had not been impeached. It was in these unprecedented circumstances that Ukraine's parliament passed, on February 22nd, resolution 757-VII: "On self-withdrawal of the President of Ukraine from performing his constitutional duties and setting early elections of the President of Ukraine." Of the parliament's 449 members, 328 voted in favour and none against. Subsequent resolutions, all passed with huge majorities, established that the speaker of parliament would become acting president, and Oleksandr Turchynov was voted into that role.

Mr Turchynov promptly signed the return to the 2004 constitution, meaning his power was limited to appointing only the ministers of defence and foreign affairs who are also referred to as "acting". The rest of the cabinet was chosen by parliament, and since parliament was elected in 2012 for a five-year term, it could stay in office until 2017. Although prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk has said he expects his "kamikaze" government to be short-lived, it is not, technically, "interim".

The only election currently scheduled (for May 25th) is the presidential one. Early parliamentary polls may or may not happen soon after that.
Source.

They left in groups of threes and fours, soaked in the pouring rain and punched the air victoriously.

The pro-Russian protesters were greeted as heroes by the throngs of people gathered outside Odessa’s police headquarters. In scenes that could herald the arrival of eastern-style takeovers in Ukraine’s south, a mob surrounded the building and smashed their way in to free the prisoners.

“We came because we believe they were unjustly arrested. The people had to turn to radical means,” said Maxim, a masked fighter in the police station courtyard.

Storming police stations has become a trademark of the pro-Russian rebellion in eastern Ukraine, but this historic port on the south-western coast had been spared similar unrest. Not any more.

Since Friday’s street fighting between pro-government and anti-Kiev protesters and the horrific building fire that followed, Odessa has been a city in shock. At least 42 people died on Friday – more than 30 of them in a fire inside a local government building where pro-Russian activists took refuge after being surrounded by a pro-government crowd.

Around 150 of the pro-Russians who escaped the blaze were arrested and jailed on Friday night – out of these, up to 100 walked free yesterday. Hundreds of anti-government protesters, many already enraged by police inaction on the day of the fire, descended on the police headquarters yesterday afternoon.

A growing crowd was already starting to get agitated when someone plucked a yellow and blue Ukrainian flag from its bracket outside the regional police headquarters in Odessa and replaced it with that of the city’s coat of arms.

On May 05 2014 18:04 Mc wrote:
@zeo

Your point of protestors outside (including armed nationalist thugs) is relevant but parliament was still free to vote as it wanted. No violence against parliamentarians was recorded. Some were probably influenced by protestors outside, but I don't think it makes the vote illegitimate if there wasn't a more direct threat of force.

So far I've only found images of nationalists outside parliament from later on :
http://rt.com/news/kiev-parliament-protest-resurge-873/
When was your image from -could you provide the direct link?
I'd like a link from around feb 22nd-23rd to definitely be able to state that they were outside parliament during the vote in question.

edit: CORRECTION: I was wrong about Yanukovych refusing to sign the deal. Maybe he said it was illegitimate afterwards? I'm not sure how I got confused. Apologies.

Outside the Verkhovna Rada, Ukraine’s parliament, Euromaidan fighters stand guard and a man waves a flag of red and black halves. This is not an anarchist banner. It is the flag of the wartime Ukrainian Insurgent Army, military wing of Stepan Bandera’s OUN-B, which was originally allied with the Nazis and many of whose troops were trained in Ukrainian battalions attached to the Nazis’ forces.

Inside the Rada, exactly the same MPs are there as before last week’s events, but they have now reshuffled their factions.

But Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the fascist Svoboda party who yesterday called for free access to firearms, is expected to be included in the government that is due to be formed on Tuesday 25 February. Other fascist MPs could join him. Already a Svoboda MP runs the general prosecutor’s office.

On May 05 2014 19:06 PaleMan wrote:
again Ghan strikes with some desinformation
i just checked the 1st link - some stupid fake

“7th Self-Defense Squadron is stationed near the Verkhovna Rada. A squadron of the Right Sector is there as well,” says Parubiy. “Squadrons 19 and 3 guard the Presidential Administration, and Squadron 15, the Central Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.”
...
Parubiy noted that right now, Kyiv must be in perfect order, better than ever, and then establish the same level of order in all of Ukraine.

referendum

According to almost all survey participants and citizens :

- The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;

- Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .

On May 05 2014 19:24 Mc wrote:
@zeo
That's your storyline. Mine is that they were there protesting.

What a difference the angle of a photo, and a little post-processing can make:

The image you sourced is this dark scary image which seems altered due to the strange colour hues.
Another image of almost the exact same scene : image

According to a EuroMaidan website:


It seems like the building was being guarded by euromaidan and right sector forces to ensure order. Berkut had apparently retreated at this point, so the presence of euromaidan/right-sector isn't surprising. It doesn't seem like there was any heckling of parliamentarians. I didn't see any guns in the images I found. A few protestors guarding the entrance wielding large metal shields. Really scary.

Also, it's normal for protestors to stand outside parliament in many countries.

On May 05 2014 19:09 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:

Did they pull back again? What's going on?