On May 05 2014 05:55 Sub40APM wrote: Holding the election would be the most valid evaluation of public support for whichever politician wins, this would both put to rest the claims that neo-nazis are running the government as polling clearly indicates they would be devastated in the polls.
Because polls can't be ever falsified or conducted / interpreted incorrectly and always show us the general picture clear.
Anything is possible, wouldnt it be great if on May 25th we could get a confirmation of them supervised by foreign observers? Yes it would.
That's called a critical thinking, man. If they can do it and can benefit from it, they would do it. There's no moral ground in politics.
I dont think you know what the term critical thinking is. Deep, anti-western paranoia is not it. Claiming that the EU is some cabal of evil imperialists supporting neo-nazis as an anti-Russian plot is verbatim repetition of Kremlin's position.
But the selected Ukrainian government would be completely controlled by the outside, they will follow any given order because their country wouldn't survive without the indirect sources of income.
GOOD. Being controlled by an institution that promotes rule of law, free press, rotation of politicians, and minority protection is a GOOD thing.
You can read the agreement Yanukovich declined to sign with EU representatives which resulted in the Maidan protest movement to begin with and see the "generous" conditions proposed to Ukraine with your own eyes.
Its not about being generous, its about turning Ukraine on the path of Poland or Slovakia and away from the path of Russia.
On May 05 2014 06:33 Nezgar wrote: You seem to be too uneducated to understand even the basic principles of democracy.
You don't even try to take my point into consideration. Democracy doesn't mean shit when your country has important interests to protect in another region. You can deny it all you want, but it won't get us anywhere.
Do you know how non-russian countries deal with people who do not share the same ideology or beliefs as the broad majority and/or the ruling party? Here's a hint: It does not involve chasing them out of the country, putting them into prisons or straight out killing them.
Non-russian = democratic? Don't even start.
Oh, and besides: "Everyone is evil" is not called critical thinking. It's called paranoia...
Evil? Please, your polar thinking has nothing to do with the international politics. I guess when NATO invaded Iraq and found no biological weaponary there it wasn't paranoia for you. Oh, the irony.
On May 05 2014 04:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote: [quote] If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazis to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
Yes there are weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hutning unarmed citizens.
You intentionally missed the bolded path though. It's essential for understanding.
They also take journalists and OSCE mission members hostage, torture and murder unarmed politicians, and threaten to use their hostages, women, and children, as human shields in case the country they are in tries to take back their own government buildings.
That's how biased you are, you don't even leave a chance that civilians support pru-Russian vigilantes on their own will.
He's referring to actual hostages ffs. Not pro-russians, but captured journalists, military observers and SBU members.
Get your head straight.
Seperatists have used captured journalists and military observers as a human shields?
I didn't catch that. You have my apology if that's actually true.
@sub you're not taking context into account. cheerio told paleman something to the effect of "read bandera's wiki page you'll learn a thing or two" in response to paleman chastizing ultranationalists iirc, in response paleman made an accusation, and cheerio did not respond. i'm (still) asking cheerio to elaborate, if he thought paleman was out of line he ought to say so, and maybe specify what he meant. if he doesn't think paleman was out of line i'd still like to hear him elaborate on his views, it would be interesting to hear.
making that taboo doesn't sound conducive to understanding(not trying to wash my hands).
On May 05 2014 05:04 Cheerio wrote: [quote] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazis to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
Yes there are weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hutning unarmed citizens.
You intentionally missed the bolded path though. It's essential for understanding.
They also take journalists and OSCE mission members hostage, torture and murder unarmed politicians, and threaten to use their hostages, women, and children, as human shields in case the country they are in tries to take back their own government buildings.
That's how biased you are, you don't even leave a chance that civilians support pru-Russian vigilantes on their own will.
He's referring to actual hostages ffs. Not pro-russians, but captured journalists, military observers and SBU members.
Get your head straight.
Seperatists used captured journalists, military observers as a human shields?
"A number of people have been abducted during the conflict, some as hostages. Separatist leader Vyacheslav Ponomarev has warned he will kill hostages if attacked, while accusing his captives of being "provocateurs." Ponomarev has referred to them as “prisoners of war.""
"These Ukrainian guys and this American are not really journalists but provocateurs, and they will stay here until we exchange them for our comrades put in prison by the illegal government in Kiev," Ponomarev said in a telephone interview. "I am warning that if we are attacked none of [the hostages] survives."
Leaves open how they would have executed them, by human shield or just guns to their heads, but apparently you miss alot.
On May 05 2014 04:43 Cheerio wrote: [quote] If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazis to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
Yes there are weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hutning unarmed citizens.
You intentionally missed the bolded path though. It's essential for understanding.
They also take journalists and OSCE mission members hostage, torture and murder unarmed politicians, and threaten to use their hostages, women, and children, as human shields in case the country they are in tries to take back their own government buildings.
That's how biased you are, you don't even leave a chance that civilians support pru-Russian vigilantes on their own will.
I'll assume you were referring to those ones who some refer to as "seperatists." Since those are the only real ones there.
Continue to live in your imaginary world where Ukrnanian neo-nazis don't exist. I am not defending seperatists by any means, but they can't be worse than the government which intentionally supports pro-Bandera radicals. Heck, even the soldiers and police officers of the country decided to betray it, it couldn't be the propaganda alone.
Gotcha, so the journalists and OSCE members who were stripped of all balongings at gunpoint and beaten and taken to cells in the "seperatist" controlled buildings were just supporting the pro-surrisan vigilantes? Ok.
On May 05 2014 07:01 nunez wrote: @hunts the military observers were beaten? can you source that, i can't remember hearing it.
Simon Ostrovsky for example was 100% beaten, the OSCE i'm not too sure about. I remember reading that one of them said that SBU Members were being beaten, nothing about themselves though.
@howardamos Talking to Right Sector leader who says 4 of his guys were killed on Friday. 3 are in a critical condition in hospital.
Yeah I hadn't heard the observers were beaten. I know the politician(s) were tortured to death, the journalists were beaten, but I hadn't heard about the observers being beaten.
On May 05 2014 06:49 Sub40APM wrote: I dont think you know what the term critical thinking is. Deep, anti-western paranoia is not it. Claiming that the EU is some cabal of evil imperialists supporting neo-nazis as an anti-Russian plot is verbatim repetition of Kremlin's position.
No moral ground = evil? It's debatable, to say at least. As for imperialism nature of EU, I don't think so. They may use Ukraine as a some kind of protection against Russia, they could move some military bases there and build defense systems, if they feel really afraid of Putin.
GOOD. Being controlled by an institution that promotes rule of law, free press, rotation of politicians, and minority protection is a GOOD thing.
I don't mind either. But some Ukranian citizens apparently do!
Its not about being generous, its about turning Ukraine on the path of Poland or Slovakia and away from the path of Russia.
I was talking about their conditions and not purposes which are mostly self-evident. EU didn't intend to treat Ukraine similar to Poland or Slovakia way right from the beginning.
On May 05 2014 06:55 m4ini wrote: Leaves open how they would have executed them, by human shield or just guns to their heads, but apparently you miss alot.
Well, the difference is crucial. Threatening is one thing, executing the said threats is another, using innocent hostages in a guns fight is third and the direst of them all imo.
On May 05 2014 02:45 Cheerio wrote: About Odesa events.
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those. This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started + Show Spoiler +
the defensive unit
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it. They were actively recruiting via social networks. Reportedly they had around 400 men, but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like. + Show Spoiler +
Notice the red armbands.
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it.
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help.
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
around 8:20
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria. And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed. So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
Sigh, at least now we know what is being posted on Stomfront forums in Ukraine, horrible pieces of twisted disinformation and transfer of guilt. Whatever helps you sleep better at night I guess.
Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades at each other and at police while the police did barely anything to separate them.
What does that even mean? Barely nothing or almost anything?
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those.
Was planned beforehand as a peaceful protest with the full knowledge that football hooligans and right-sector activists will vastly outnumber any non-maniacs. Yeah... Sure...
This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started
Insert pictures of flowers and rainbows
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it.
Them evul Ruskies raining on a flower and rainbow parade.
They were actively recruiting via social networks.
I wonder what people do when they organize demonstrations? Go on social networks?
Reportedly they had around 400 men (compared to the 1,500 football fans you fail to mention), but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like.
Insert pictures of generic looking thugs identical to the maidan ones
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it. + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xh0FtGebts#t=54
What? The video shows anti-government protesters (red armbands) retreating behind the police, I'm sure they are retreating because the maidan supporters are unnarmed
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
A compleate lie or extreemly shaky evidance at the very best. Right sector guy says 'we din' do nuffin', we victims... in front of the cameras.
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help. + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f5uLGRK0FI
Plain-clothes police officers usually run away when armed gangs surround them, notice the helmets and stick weapons brought to the peaceful protest.
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
4 dead (if the Ukraine interior ministry number of 42 total dead is to be believed)
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
No they didn't
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Insert highly edited video from dubious news source showing random people without any features tying them to one side or other with guns.
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
The people fighting on the streets went home, the ones in the Trade building were involved in logistical side of the protests.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria.
Unconfirmed information with no basis in fact. All of the people that died in the fires were Ukrainan citizens, the people arrested were citizens of Odessa as confirmed by every single one of the 62 released today having family members waiting for them
And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed.
Who knows.
So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
It has been announced Major General Ivan Katerinchuk, former head of the police forces in Ukraine’s Chernihiv Oblast, is to become head of the police in the city of Odessa, www.dumskaya.net reported. He is famous for his criticism of the former authorities; he also took part in the "Get up, Ukraine!" rally in the capital city Kiev and has made sharp comments on the previous authorities in Facebook posts.
Looks like now we know why the police only arrested anti-government supporters then, Ivan Katerinchuk did his job.
nice sources you got there. And the one that you did give
https://twitter.com/howardamos/status/462231262204534784/photo/1 Note the time, 7;04 am
That is a random twitter picture taken god knows where god knows when, which was uploaded at 7:04 (pm or am? can't say according to twitter interface). Are you openly trolling?
@saryph tortured to death news to me as well. iirc reports said showed signs of torture re:the two people found in river in slavyansk, one of them was a politician, the other was a young student from kiev. the circustances around deaths in slovyansk are still unclear.
when they were being detained they stated they were being treated well, but that was while captured. if they were beaten during their stay that would be news.
On May 05 2014 06:54 nunez wrote: @sub you're not taking context into account. cheerio told paleman something to the effect of "read bandera's wiki page you'll learn a thing or two" in response to paleman chastizing ultranationalists iirc, in response paleman made an accusation, and cheerio did not respond. i'm (still) asking cheerio to elaborate, if he thought paleman was out of line he ought to say so, and maybe specify what he meant. if he doesn't think paleman was out of line i'd still like to hear him elaborate on his views, it would be interesting to hear.
making that taboo doesn't sound conducive to understanding(not trying to wash my hands).
Your original wording did not expand on this context, the implication of 2-3 different posts you made towards Cheerio could be easily seen as 'Cheerio unless you deny being an ultra nationalist I am going to assume you are a neo-nazi' which I felt was in poor taste.
On May 05 2014 06:54 nunez wrote: @sub you're not taking context into account. cheerio told paleman something to the effect of "read bandera's wiki page you'll learn a thing or two" in response to paleman chastizing ultranationalists iirc, in response paleman made an accusation, and cheerio did not respond. i'm (still) asking cheerio to elaborate, if he thought paleman was out of line he ought to say so, and maybe specify what he meant. if he doesn't think paleman was out of line i'd still like to hear him elaborate on his views, it would be interesting to hear.
making that taboo doesn't sound conducive to understanding(not trying to wash my hands).
Your original wording did not expand on this context, the implication of 2-3 different posts you made towards Cheerio could be easily seen as 'Cheerio unless you deny being an ultra nationalist I am going to assume you are a neo-nazi' which I felt was in poor taste.
Whats so hard about saying you are not an ultra-nationalist? Ether way this is an anonymous internet forum, lying about personal details is implied. Nothing can be proved so its useless to talk about it.
@nunez you are right about OSCE members. It appears as if they weren't beaten, but the important information is that journalists clearly were beaten/maltreated while being held by separatists.
On May 05 2014 06:54 nunez wrote: @sub you're not taking context into account. cheerio told paleman something to the effect of "read bandera's wiki page you'll learn a thing or two" in response to paleman chastizing ultranationalists iirc, in response paleman made an accusation, and cheerio did not respond. i'm (still) asking cheerio to elaborate, if he thought paleman was out of line he ought to say so, and maybe specify what he meant. if he doesn't think paleman was out of line i'd still like to hear him elaborate on his views, it would be interesting to hear.
making that taboo doesn't sound conducive to understanding(not trying to wash my hands).
Your original wording did not expand on this context, the implication of 2-3 different posts you made towards Cheerio could be easily seen as 'Cheerio unless you deny being an ultra nationalist I am going to assume you are a neo-nazi' which I felt was in poor taste.
Whats so hard about saying you are not an ultra-nationalist? Ether way this is an anonymous internet forum, lying about personal details is implied. Nothing can be proved so its useless to talk about it.
We walked on corpses. -How many died? -Overall 116 people died. They just berried people down, finishing them. -With gas? -Not only. Flash granades, traumatic pistols, pump guns, even firearms. Drove them into the building, beat two guys to death with sticks. Is this f**ing OK? Is this a f***ing united country? Burned a woman with two children alive. On the 2nd floor.. there's been info that they've burned a woman with two kids. - How many dead, say on camera. -More than 116 dead, guys. Tell me please, your mass media called us... Excuse me, but I'll keep saying this... They called us terrorists when Right Sector, fa***ts, drove us to the roof, scattered us (with Molotovs?) and shouted "death to enemies!"? Death to whom? They shout "United Ukraine"? I f** such united Ukraine in its mouth!...(inaudible)... Chronology? Children died there, women died, old men. They finished them in their heads, stomping. The militaries (Ukranian) could not do anything. They were rounded by the military, which came with their shields, (inaudible) exploded among them and they jumped on corpses. Jumped on corpses, guys. -And where are the others, its not all? -The others are at the 6th kilometer. We need to go pick them. -Whats your name? -Name's Vania. -Vania, hold on! -I'm holding! -(woman)Boys, keep saying truth! -(granny to reporters)We're praying on our knees, don't lie!
Heroic rescue operation by maidan supporters (don't know if its NSFW but if you don't like seeing people who fall from a burning building get hit with poles... don't watch)
EPT![[image loading]](http://image.112.ua/original/May2014/34582.jpg)
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