On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
HERE:
Have you even watched the video I posted? I don't see a full-scale attack in yours. It looks more like a provocation, if anything.
Judging by a common logic only, if the so called pro-Russians really wanted to murder ultras with guns, there couldn't have been only 4 victims total.
Yes, I just watched your video. It's a pastiche of violence throughout Ukraine interspersed with Ukranian ultras/nationalists chanting pro-bandera crap. It's unclear who is performing the violence in a lot of the videos. Also, most of the videos content is from before the new Ukrainian government.
I agree that there are a lot of violent ultra-nationalists on the Ukrainian side but that is not in question. In the past few weeks there has been a huge amount of pro-Russian thugs ravaging through cities in Ukraine, and beating unarmed civilians who support a united Ukraine.
This is the quote in question: nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country
Here is another video of pro-Russian thugs doing the same:
Could you post a recent video of mass-violence against unarmed citizens from the Ukrainian side?
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
On May 05 2014 05:11 nunez wrote: that's in khrakov, same city were an antimaidan and a passerby were shot by maidans.
maidan killings 2 - 1 antimaidan killings.
btw cheerio, you never responded to palemans allegations that you were a banderite, after you earlier told him he would 'learn much' if he read bandera's wiki-page. care to elaborate what you meant? maybe i just missed it.
Yeah, lets go witchhunting, that will surely make this thread better.
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and missed the point once again.
Your opinion is more valid than mine because you called me a name, congratulations.
It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government,
Yes, Ukrainians are terrified of Rusisan nationalistic scum ravaging the country with the support of Putin. If only there was some kind of election, supervise by some kind of supra-national organizations and watched by some sort of media that would somehow allow all Ukrainian citizens to do some kind of expression of public support for one set of ideas or another. Gosh, if only that was possible.
. Don't see the deal yet?
Of course I do, Russians fed by Russian paranoia have become useful tools for Putin and are rushing through rapid referendums because they are scared that even in the East the support for their position polls in the 30-40%.
Imagine that the intellectual majority of Germany and USA, for examply, would suddenly find out that their goverment decided to take neo-nazis's side in a Ukranian civil war in order to punish Russia for their agression.
Except they didnt decided to support neo-nazis, they support the side that wants elections. And the people they oppose are masked gunman armed with Russian gear, rushing through Crimea style referendums where the option is join Russia now or join Russia tomorrow while holding hostages and pining back to the days of the Soviet Union and strong and mighty Putin.
On May 05 2014 05:11 nunez wrote: that's in khrakov, same city were an antimaidan and a passerby were shot by maidans.
maidan killings 2 - 1 antimaidan killings.
nice to have experts on the events in Ukraine all over the world but that's not "Khrakov" at all, not even Kharkov. The location is in the name of the video and in the name of the BBC article I posted. But you know better right?
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
@cheerio woops, mb. but i do believe the casualty counts are pretty similar from maidan / antimaidan if you don't account for the people who died due to the fire.
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
On May 05 2014 02:45 Cheerio wrote: About Odesa events.
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those. This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started + Show Spoiler +
the defensive unit
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it. They were actively recruiting via social networks. Reportedly they had around 400 men, but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like. + Show Spoiler +
Notice the red armbands.
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xh0FtGebts#t=54
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help.
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
around 8:20
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria. And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed. So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
Sigh, at least now we know what is being posted on Stomfront forums in Ukraine, horrible pieces of twisted disinformation and transfer of guilt. Whatever helps you sleep better at night I guess.
So nothing about how after the tiny gathering with the ironic name 'Unity for Ukraine', was later joined by 1,500 football hooligans, supporters of the Kiev and right-sector. Who then tried to march through the center of the city chanting 'Glory to Ukraine', 'Death to enemies', 'Knife the Moskals'. When confronted by anti-government protesters fights broke out with both sides threw stones, Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades at each other and at police while the police did barely anything to separate them. After the street battle's in which 4 people died anti-government protesters pulled back and most of them went home. For a month now the Trade Union building in Odessa has been the HQ of the anti-government movement in the city. Using their massive numbers the hooligans attacked the people left in the tents in front of the building, setting fire to them (tents). Fearing getting beat up and having their limbs severed like some anti-governemnt protesters earlier in the day + Show Spoiler +
they retreated and barricaded themselves in the building.
This video clearly shows maidan supporters throwing molotovs into the building and setting it on fire, most of the people trying to help people escape the fire were attacked by right sector thugs, even capturing a fire truck and beating up the driver + Show Spoiler +
Many of those who managed to escape the fire by jumping from the windows were then brutally beaten by armed men. About 50 people got to the roof of the burning building and waited for help there.
“We were hiding there [on the roof] from this angry mob, which forced us inside this building and threw Molotov cocktails and stones at us,” he said. “People were burned alive inside the building, they couldn’t get out. We couldn’t go down, we were seeing people from other floors being brought down and then those rioters down there attacked them like a pack of wolves. We were escorted from the roof and from the building. We had to step over dead bodies when we were descending the stairs.”
@cheerio i was thinking about this report: ibtimes but i thought the stabbing happened there as well. confusion on my part.
now, you say anti-maidan are violent nationalist scum, but casualty-wise the thugs on both sides are pretty even, unless you count those who died in odessa. care to respond to this?
furthermore care to respond to the allegation paleman made that you are a banderite? seems awkward for you to ignore this, seems like the kind of allegation you ought to take seriously and respond to. it would be interesting to hear your perspective.
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and missed the point once again.
Your opinion is more valid than mine because you called me a name, congratulations.
My opinion is as good as yours. But I can't call the believe stating that economically ruined country with violent ultra-nazi forces running intact could magically solve all their social problems after the 'we-hope-it-would-be-legal' government election in a month anything other than naive, sorry.
Yes, Ukrainians are terrified of Rusisan nationalistic scum ravaging the country with the support of Putin. If only there was some kind of election, supervise by some kind of supra-national organizations and watched by some sort of media that would somehow allow all Ukrainian citizens to do some kind of expression of public support for one set of ideas or another. Gosh, if only that was possible.
If EU / USA provide open support to Ukraine and send their obsevers to the election, you bet they would force the candidate they are most comfortable to work with to get eventually "elected". Democracy doesn't mean shit when your country has important interests to protect in another region. So, basically, Ukraine loses it's independence to EU, and nobody does anything about the neo-nazis, because their hate to Russia could turn out useful afterall.
Don't act like Western government representatives are the ambassadors of good will and democratic values. They are not.
Except they didnt decided to support neo-nazis, they support the side that wants elections.
They support CURRENT government and act like neo-nazi problem doesn't even exist.
Of course I do, Russians fed by Russian paranoia have become useful tools for Putin and are rushing through rapid referendums because they are scared that even in the East the support for their position polls in the 30-40%.
Unfortunately, as I have already stated before, I don't support Putin in any kind of way and not inclined to believe that it's totally okay to team up with a goverment who supports a neo-nazi movement to beat him up either.
now, you say anti-maidan are violent nationalist scum, but casualty-wise the thugs on both sides are pretty even, unless you count those who died in odessa. care to respond to this?
Which side threatened to use hostages as shields in case of an attack? Yes, i know it's not exactly what they said, but if you state "in case you attack us, no hostage will survive" is kinda not a two sided coin - either shields, or execution.
On May 05 2014 05:44 nunez wrote: seems awkward for you to ignore this, seems like the kind of allegation you ought to take seriously and respond to. it would be interesting to hear your perspective.
Zeo and Paleman are entities of the Russian Foreign Ministry, they havent denied it so therefore it must be true.
On May 05 2014 02:45 Cheerio wrote: About Odesa events.
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those. This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started + Show Spoiler +
the defensive unit
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it. They were actively recruiting via social networks. Reportedly they had around 400 men, but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like. + Show Spoiler +
Notice the red armbands.
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xh0FtGebts#t=54
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f5uLGRK0FI
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria. And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed. So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
Sigh, at least now we know what is being posted on Stomfront forums in Ukraine, horrible pieces of twisted disinformation and transfer of guilt. Whatever helps you sleep better at night I guess.
So where exactly did I post disinformation?
Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades at each other and at police while the police did barely anything to separate them.
What does that even mean? Barely nothing or almost anything?
On May 05 2014 05:11 nunez wrote: maidan killings 2 - 1 antimaidan killings.
You are keeping score? Who wins the competition - the side with more or less frags? I must admit I got a bit quesy reading that...
With any conflict with this scale it is quite certain that both sides will have valid concerns as well as radical morons. What propaganda does is emphasize the oppositions radicals and ignore their own. The opposite is applied to concerns. What a rational human being should do as much as possible, in my opinion, is ignore the radicals as much as possible (they don't work that well if there is less chaos about) and focus on the concerns. There's some hope a solution might pop-up that doesn't involve perforation and combustion of humans.
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