On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and missed the point once again.
Your opinion is more valid than mine because you called me a name, congratulations.
My opinion is as good as yours. But I can't call the believe stating that economically ruined country with violent ultra-nazi forces running intact could magically solve all their social problems after the 'we-hope-it-would-be-legal' government election in a month anything other than naive, sorry.
Where did I say that? Holding the election would be the most valid evaluation of public support for whichever politician wins, this would both put to rest the claims that neo-nazis are running the government as polling clearly indicates they would be devastated in the polls. This would then calm down those in the East who genuinely believe in Russian propaganda and allow them to start participating in rebuilding the country. The rebuilding the economy requires significant structural reforms and an IMF program, which is what the interim government was trying to pursue before Crimea was invaded. But keep building straw men arguments.
If EU / USA provide open support to Ukraine and send their obsevers to the election, you bet they would force the candidate they are most comfortable to work with to get eventually "elected". Democracy doesn't mean shit when your country has important interests to protect in another region. So, basically, Ukraine loses it's independence to EU, and nobody does anything about the neo-nazis, because their hate to Russia could turn out useful afterall.
And I am the naive one? To believe that the EU is set out to 'take over Ukraine' and use 'neo nazis' as anti-Russian troops is Kremlin level of paranoia. Ask an average Pole or Baltic citizen how he feels about being a 'slave' to the 'EU' and being 'used' as anti-Russian shock troops. It just shows how badly educated you are about the nature of what the European Union is. What the EU wants is to bring stability to its neighboring countries and build up its trading partners. Turning former Soviet puppet states in a direction that promotes reforms and broadly encourages liberalism is EU's greatest triumph.
Don't act like Western government representatives are the ambassadors of good will and democratic values. They are not.
Well if you say so it must be true. Everyone knows that Western governments are desperate to add a country 45 million extremely poor people because...SPHERE OF INFLUENCE!
They support CURRENT government and act like neo-nazi problem doesn't even exist.
They support the current government because its the one that is offering elections and broad structural reforms.
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazi connection to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
On May 05 2014 03:14 Sub40APM wrote: Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote
You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazis to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
Yes there are weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hutning unarmed citizens. They also take journalists and OSCE mission members hostage, torture and murder unarmed politicians, and threaten to use their hostages, women, and children, as human shields in case the country they are in tries to take back their own government buildings. I'll assume you were referring to those ones who some refer to as "seperatists." Since those are the only real ones there.
@sub40apm if you were to pose a direct question to zeo or paleman they'd answer you (my bet is that the answer would be a resounding no), and not repeatedly dodge the quesiton like cheerio is doing. surely it's an issue where you'd expect people to be crystal clear, and not let palemans accusations go unanswered for.
@cheerio no, answer still... leave it up to my imagination, hm? i wouldn't be that trusting of my imagination, if i were you. ;>
summary of odessa unrest from telegraph, courtesy roland oliphant:
Ukraine crisis: death by fire in Odessa as country suffers bloodiest day since the revolution
...
Dr Andrei Vegerzhinsky, the chief doctor of Odessa’s Hospital No. 1, soon knew that he was in for a long day. “The way we work, is that I always have a phone on so I can be alerted if a major incident happens. I got that call about 3pm” he remembered.
”The stream of casualties began about 4pm and it continued until 1am,” added Dr Vegerzhinsky. “In principle, we’re ready to deal with lots of casualties - we’re prepared for earthquakes, bus crashes, you name it - but we weren’t ready for this.”
Both sides were fighting with bricks, improvised clubs, petrol bombs and firearms, although it is not yet clear whether they were loaded with live rounds or rubber bullets.
The surgeons at Hospital No. 1, who treated 90 people, said they saw multiple gunshot wounds, certainly including those inflicted by rubber ammunition. But they could not say whether they had seen the aftermath of live bullets.
On May 05 2014 06:13 nunez wrote: @sub40apm if you were to pose a direct question to zeo or paleman they'd answer you (my bet is that the answer would be a resounding no), and not repeatedly dodge the quesiton like cheerio is doing. surely it's an issue where you'd expect people to be crystal clear, and not let palemans accusations go unanswered for.
@cheerio no, answer still... leave it up to my imagination, hm? i wouldn't be that trusting of my imagination, if i were you. ;>
summary of odessa unrest from telegraph, courtesy roland oliphant:
Ukraine crisis: death by fire in Odessa as country suffers bloodiest day since the revolution
...
Dr Andrei Vegerzhinsky, the chief doctor of Odessa’s Hospital No. 1, soon knew that he was in for a long day. “The way we work, is that I always have a phone on so I can be alerted if a major incident happens. I got that call about 3pm” he remembered.
”The stream of casualties began about 4pm and it continued until 1am,” added Dr Vegerzhinsky. “In principle, we’re ready to deal with lots of casualties - we’re prepared for earthquakes, bus crashes, you name it - but we weren’t ready for this.”
Both sides were fighting with bricks, improvised clubs, petrol bombs and firearms, although it is not yet clear whether they were loaded with live rounds or rubber bullets.
The surgeons at Hospital No. 1, who treated 90 people, said they saw multiple gunshot wounds, certainly including those inflicted by rubber ammunition. But they could not say whether they had seen the aftermath of live bullets.
nope. i am too uneducated to even give the question proper consideration tbh. nor would it be relevant to the thread, cheerio's perspective would not only be very relevant for the thread, but also a really interesting read. i might factor the answer in when i'm estimating his bias, whether i'd like to or not, but first and foremost it would be interesting to read.
On May 05 2014 05:54 nunez wrote: @hundislim seems like a good metric when comparing who is the more violent. comparable amount of casualties on both sides.
I'm not following you - are you saying that as long as you murder fewer people as an arbitrary "other" side, it's quite ok to do so? Self-defense could be some sort of angle, but I don't quite see how this can be applied in the current situation...
I suppose it's not just you, that has this horrible world view, but seeing it as a football score kind of struck me at a weird angle (I didn't quite acknowledge to myself how bad we were for a while I suppose).
Just trying to say that you are a horrible-horrible person.
On May 05 2014 05:55 Sub40APM wrote: Holding the election would be the most valid evaluation of public support for whichever politician wins, this would both put to rest the claims that neo-nazis are running the government as polling clearly indicates they would be devastated in the polls.
Because polls can't be ever falsified or conducted / interpreted incorrectly and always show us the general picture clear.
This would then calm down those in the East who genuinely believe in Russian propaganda and allow them to start participating in rebuilding the country. The rebuilding the economy requires significant structural reforms and an IMF program, which is what the interim government was trying to pursue before Crimea was invaded.
But keep building straw men arguments.
>Where did I say that? You just said it here. IMF program doesn't come for free.
And I am the naive one? To believe that the EU is set out to 'take over Ukraine' and use 'neo nazis' as anti-Russian troops is Kremlin level of paranoia.
That's called a critical thinking, man. If they can do it and can benefit from it, they would do it. There's no moral ground in politics.
Ask an average Pole or Baltic citizen how he feels about being a 'slave' to the 'EU' and being 'used' as anti-Russian shock troops. It just shows how badly educated you are about the nature of what the European Union is. What the EU wants is to bring stability to its neighboring countries and build up its trading partners.
I haven't said Ukraine will join EU officially, I don't think EU will ever want such a headache in their active.
But the selected Ukrainian government would be completely controlled by the outside, they will follow any given order because their country wouldn't survive without the indirect sources of income.
Turning former Soviet puppet states in a direction that promotes reforms and broadly encourages liberalism is EU's greatest triumph.
You can read the agreement Yanukovich declined to sign with EU representatives which resulted in the Maidan protest movement to begin with and see the "generous" conditions proposed to Ukraine with your own eyes.
They support the current government because its the one that is offering elections and broad structural reforms
And neo-nazis are essential for that broad structural changes.
Because polls can't be ever falsified or conducted / interpreted incorrectly and always show us the general picture clear.
So why exactly would someone "falsify" a poll to show that the current government is as despised as yanukovich was? That doesn't even make sense. Not even touching the subject that basically all polls had that outcome. Not just tendencies, but clear pictures of what is wanted and what not.
@hundislim if one side was more violent than the other, then i'd expect that to be reflected in the casualty count. i was mistaken, thinking these events happened in same city, but they didn't. regardless the casualty count on both sides seems pretty equal (barring the people burnt to death in odessa). one side does not seem to be more violent than the other.
maybe another format would have been more appropriate considering the football ultras involved in odessa riots, but i'm sure you will excuse me for not taking your characterization to heart.
Casualty count has a lot of issues as a metric; as it's heavily affected by how well trained/skilled/equipped each side is; it also fails to distinguish between the degrees of justifiability or non-justifiability of the casualties; which seems key for a morale comparison.
On May 05 2014 05:55 Sub40APM wrote: Holding the election would be the most valid evaluation of public support for whichever politician wins, this would both put to rest the claims that neo-nazis are running the government as polling clearly indicates they would be devastated in the polls.
Because polls can't be ever falsified or conducted / interpreted incorrectly and always show us the general picture clear.
This would then calm down those in the East who genuinely believe in Russian propaganda and allow them to start participating in rebuilding the country. The rebuilding the economy requires significant structural reforms and an IMF program, which is what the interim government was trying to pursue before Crimea was invaded.
But keep building straw men arguments.
>Where did I say that? You just said it here. IMF program doesn't come for free.
And I am the naive one? To believe that the EU is set out to 'take over Ukraine' and use 'neo nazis' as anti-Russian troops is Kremlin level of paranoia.
That's called a critical thinking, man. If they can do it and can benefit from it, they would do it. There's no moral ground in politics.
Ask an average Pole or Baltic citizen how he feels about being a 'slave' to the 'EU' and being 'used' as anti-Russian shock troops. It just shows how badly educated you are about the nature of what the European Union is. What the EU wants is to bring stability to its neighboring countries and build up its trading partners.
I haven't said Ukraine will join EU officially, I don't think EU will ever want such a headache in their active.
But the selected Ukrainian government would be completely controlled by the outside, they will follow any given order because their country wouldn't survive without the indirect sources of income.
Turning former Soviet puppet states in a direction that promotes reforms and broadly encourages liberalism is EU's greatest triumph.
You can read the agreement Yanukovich declined to sign with EU representatives which resulted in the Maidan protest movement to begin with and see the "generous" conditions proposed to Ukraine with your own eyes.
They support the current government because its the one that is offering elections and broad structural reforms
And neo-nazis are essential for that broad structural changes.
You seem to be too uneducated to understand even the basic principles of democracy. Do you know how non-russian countries deal with people who do not share the same ideology or beliefs as the broad majority and/or the ruling party? Here's a hint: It does not involve chasing them out of the country, putting them into prisons or straight out killing them.
Oh, and besides: "Everyone is evil" is not called critical thinking. It's called paranoia...
On May 05 2014 02:45 Cheerio wrote: About Odesa events.
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those. This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started + Show Spoiler +
the defensive unit
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it. They were actively recruiting via social networks. Reportedly they had around 400 men, but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like. + Show Spoiler +
Notice the red armbands.
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it.
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help.
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
around 8:20
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria. And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed. So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
Sigh, at least now we know what is being posted on Stomfront forums in Ukraine, horrible pieces of twisted disinformation and transfer of guilt. Whatever helps you sleep better at night I guess.
Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades at each other and at police while the police did barely anything to separate them.
What does that even mean? Barely nothing or almost anything?
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those.
Was planned beforehand as a peaceful protest with the full knowledge that football hooligans and right-sector activists will vastly outnumber any non-maniacs. Yeah... Sure...
This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started
Insert pictures of flowers and rainbows
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it.
Them evul Ruskies raining on a flower and rainbow parade.
They were actively recruiting via social networks.
I wonder what people do when they organize demonstrations? Go on social networks?
Reportedly they had around 400 men (compared to the 1,500 football fans you fail to mention), but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like.
Insert pictures of generic looking thugs identical to the maidan ones
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it. + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xh0FtGebts#t=54
What? The video shows anti-government protesters (red armbands) retreating behind the police, I'm sure they are retreating because the maidan supporters are unnarmed
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
A compleate lie or extreemly shaky evidance at the very best. Right sector guy says 'we din' do nuffin', we victims... in front of the cameras.
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help. + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f5uLGRK0FI
Plain-clothes police officers usually run away when armed gangs surround them, notice the helmets and stick weapons brought to the peaceful protest.
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
4 dead (if the Ukraine interior ministry number of 42 total dead is to be believed)
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
No they didn't
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Insert highly edited video from dubious news source showing random people without any features tying them to one side or other with guns.
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
The people fighting on the streets went home, the ones in the Trade building were involved in logistical side of the protests.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria.
Unconfirmed information with no basis in fact. All of the people that died in the fires were Ukrainan citizens, the people arrested were citizens of Odessa as confirmed by every single one of the 62 released today having family members waiting for them
And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed.
Who knows.
So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
It has been announced Major General Ivan Katerinchuk, former head of the police forces in Ukraine’s Chernihiv Oblast, is to become head of the police in the city of Odessa, www.dumskaya.net reported. He is famous for his criticism of the former authorities; he also took part in the "Get up, Ukraine!" rally in the capital city Kiev and has made sharp comments on the previous authorities in Facebook posts.
On May 05 2014 04:36 ForTehDarkseid wrote: [quote] You're naive as a child and miss the point once again. It's not about having a strong concern that Right Sector leader might become a president, or supporting the separatists who want to join to Russia. It's about having all sort of nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country with the support of temporary government, which, by the way, have been supported by the Western leaders through the whole crisis. Don't see the deal yet?
If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazis to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
Yes there are weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hutning unarmed citizens.
You intentionally missed the bolded path though. It's essential for understanding.
They also take journalists and OSCE mission members hostage, torture and murder unarmed politicians, and threaten to use their hostages, women, and children, as human shields in case the country they are in tries to take back their own government buildings.
That's how biased you are, you don't even leave a chance that civilians support pru-Russian vigilantes on their own will.
I'll assume you were referring to those ones who some refer to as "seperatists." Since those are the only real ones there.
Continue to live in your imaginary world where Ukrnanian neo-nazis don't exist. I am not defending seperatists by any means, but they can't be worse than the government which intentionally supports pro-Bandera radicals. Heck, even the soldiers and police officers of the country decided to betray it, it couldn't be the propaganda alone.
This is funny how people are still bringing up the government supporting neo-nazi card after what has happened to the most notorious of them, Sasha Bilyy (Muzychko). He died under very suspicious circumstances, and it is still widely believed that he was assasinated by the police while the government covered it up. The Right Sector (Bilyy was one of their local leaders) was really furious when it happened, but in a weak or two they reacted by... disbanding all their units besides their political wing. Shortly after that decision Russian activity in Eastern Ukraine started, so I'm not sure if that decision was put on hold or wasn't.
@zlefin at least it's some sort of a metric. violence is stemming from clashes between maidan and antimaidan protestors, reasonably homogeneous groups. morale comparison wut?
@mc he's certainly ignoring it for some reason. why is it a personal attack?
On May 05 2014 06:13 nunez wrote: @sub40apm if you were to pose a direct question to zeo or paleman they'd answer you (my bet is that the answer would be a resounding no), and not repeatedly dodge the quesiton like cheerio is doing. surely it's an issue where you'd expect people to be crystal clear, and not let palemans accusations go unanswered for.
Maybe he finds the question distasteful, like asking a German whether he is a Nazi or SED supporter or not.
On May 05 2014 04:43 Cheerio wrote: [quote] If anyone here has been nationalist scum ravaging terror all over the country its the pro-Russian side of the conflict, not the other way around.
If you can't show me the video of pro-Russians violently attacking their unarmed enemies to death and chanting Nazi's chores, your words mean jack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26569892 As a result pro-Ukrainianians got encircled and beat up. One person died because of knife stab. They were chanting "Russia, Russia". Is that "nationalist scum ravaging terror" enough?
Have you bothered to watch the video I posted? >typical street brawl >ravaging terror all over the country Not even close.
your video is cheap propaganda. You show me a single unedited footage and we can talk.
Edited = not happened at all ?
Look, it's a rather a easy reasoning from me. As long as your government supports neo-nazis, democratic countiries should show no support to Ukraine. When the ultranationalists end up in jail for their crimes, then we can talk.
As long as you rely for information on propagandistic edited videos which aim to villanify one of the sides of the conflict, you will never get a decent understanding of anything that is going on in any conflict. Easy-mode reasoning doesn't work when you need to dig deeper.
Well, Japan thought they can form an alliance with Nazis too. They got nuked for that. You don't need to villanify the Nazis to the world, it seems.
I don't need to dig deeper when I see weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hurting unarmed citizens with a fascism reasoning and signatures.
Yes there are weaponized ultranationalists on the streets hutning unarmed citizens.
You intentionally missed the bolded path though. It's essential for understanding.
They also take journalists and OSCE mission members hostage, torture and murder unarmed politicians, and threaten to use their hostages, women, and children, as human shields in case the country they are in tries to take back their own government buildings.
That's how biased you are, you don't even leave a chance that civilians support pru-Russian vigilantes on their own will.
He's referring to actual hostages ffs. Not pro-russians, but captured journalists, military observers and SBU members.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://image.112.ua/original/May2014/34582.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.unian.net/photos/2014_05/thumb_files/620_400_1399041698-8336.jpeg)
![[image loading]](http://bm.img.com.ua/berlin/storage/news/600x500/5/98/def03b76b285cbcb25ad4df035e34985.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.unian.net/photos/2014_05/thumb_files/620_400_1399041704-2602.jpeg)
![[image loading]](http://image.zn.ua/media/images/614xX/May2014/89001.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://news.liga.net/upload/iblock/5a8/5a860942b4550a728cf2004a85eee08e.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://odessa-life.od.ua/upload/image/2_(260).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://news.liga.net/upload/iblock/cf9/cf968af0349c298ff7f73e6dd20ff814.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://bm.img.com.ua/berlin/storage/news/600x500/8/89/41e8137cc52bd2547cef62b017340898.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/v_n_zb/24204083/854999/854999_original.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/125250/125250_original.jpg)
