On May 04 2014 22:13 m4ini wrote: I would repost DrCoopers picture, but not worth the trouble i might get into for it.
I'm just glad there's a "anti-zeo" or "anti-paleman" now. Must be fun for them to experience what people deal with if they try to discuss something with them.
Not that marigold has any points, but i promise you guys, you'll get used to it quick.
What goes around, comes around. Only fair, I think. You know all those silly Slavs and Syrians and Russians arguing about how the CIA is de-stabilizing their countries? We can return the favor now, except we'd be right.
I praise your arrogance.
I am going to tell you one thing, don't get mad. Nobody cares about you opinion unless you can't express it right. The journalists of major US papers obviously are capable of providing solid arguements and you are not, therefore the posters here are already fed up with your useless rants. Please stop beating the damn dead horse, please.
On May 05 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
On May 05 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
Look at this map. This map represents all the people that didn't vote for the people running Kiev now. The pink, red and maroon parts are now running Ukraine. The blue part, and to some extent the grey parts voted for Yanukovych just because the alternative would be the people that are running Kiev today.
The blue part of the country, ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian-Russians are pissed.
Thats what I've never liked about the whole situation. Everyone knows that yanukovych was corupt as hell but at the end of the day he was who the people voted for. In a real democracy he would resign and his sucessor would take over. In a real democracy thats what the people would demand. But instead We're in this weid quasi coup world where the leader of the country isn't elected by the people whos lives hes responsible for his day to day decisions.
Doesn't slightly seem like Nazi for me. Western democratic countires support current Ukrainian government who support these guys. Now, any reasonable thoughts why this should be tolerated by citizens of the country?
On May 05 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
*cough* Chechnya *cough*
Asking for your own state doens't include bombing the country and killing lots of innocent civilians.
On May 05 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
*cough* Chechnya *cough*
Asking for your own state doens't include bombing the country and killing lots of innocent civilians.
someone should tell the russian backed "seperatists" that it also doesn't include taking OSCE members and journalists as hostages and torturing and murdering unarmed politicians.
On May 05 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
*cough* Chechnya *cough*
Asking for your own state doens't include bombing the country and killing lots of innocent civilians.
So by your logic if you Ukraine bombs the Russian separatists in Ukraine, then they are not "asking for their own state".... hmmm, interesting point. Bomb them, and they aren't separatists anymore!
On May 05 demand s4 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
*cough* Chechnya *cough*
Asking for your own state doens't include bombing the country and killing lots of innocent civilians.
It doesn't ? Someone forgot to tell that to IRA ... or almost any group in the world faced with opposition that would never accept their demands.
The march for the "Unity of Ukraine" was planned beforehand as a peaceful demonstration. Football fans were expected to participate. That day there was a game between Chornomorets FC (Odesa) and Metalist FC (Harkiv) so there were plenty of those. This is how the demonstrators looked like before it started + Show Spoiler +
the defensive unit
On the other hand pro-Russian activists were preparing to stop the march and attack it. They were actively recruiting via social networks. Reportedly they had around 400 men, but they were decently armed. Here is how they looked like. + Show Spoiler +
Notice the red armbands.
The escalation. Here you can see a narrow line of police separating the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian activists. The latter are attacking the line and breaking it.
In the upper post of mine there is somebody from pro-Ukrainian camp reporting that pro-Russians got "firearms, they got molotovs, pyrotechnics. They've got everything while my men were barehanded".
I have not found much footage or pictures from the early moments of fighting, probably because there was too much smoke from grenades. The most striking thing about it was that police suddenly started running away. In the following video the shots are being fired in the background, grenades go off, police is actively trying to run off while the people are pleading for help.
Though most guns of pro-Russians were traumatic, some were very much lethal. Reportedly there were 6 pro-Ukrainians dead because of gunshots. Here is probably the first of them + Show Spoiler +
Later the police came back (presumably the ones supposed to protect the security at the football match). They managed to devide the opposing sides.
Pro-Ukrainians evaluated the casualties and started to dig up and break up paving stone blocks. Here the police officer is lecturing people that they are destroying the road surface, while the outraged people claim they were attacked, people were dying while they have no way to defend themselves. + Show Spoiler +
around 8:20
Pro-Ukrainians counter-attack. At this phase the police was defending armed pro-Russians from the angry mobs throwing stones at them. Some of the policemen have the same red armbands that pro-Russians had. Pro-Russians were also firing gunshots at the crowds from the backs of police while those were fine with that. + Show Spoiler +
Since the violence lasted for hours pro-Russians were running out of ammunition and grenades, so they started retreating to their headquarters in the Unions Building. Pro-Ukrainians chased them off. About what happedned afterwards you know plenty of already.
P.S. And a bit more concerning police. At some point after the Unions Building started burning and first casualties there appeared, the police started doing their job and arresting pro-Russians. Overall there were around 150 arrested. According to unconfirmed information most of them were either from Russia or Transnistria. And another strange fact is that 3 out of 4 local police department heads were on a holiday abroad that day. Despite the fact that the march was planned a long time ago and the recruiting for resistance to it was full on the way, not much was done to prevent the bloodshed. So Odesa Oblast head of police has been fired already, while many others are expected to be fired in the near future.
@cheerio ^ best post for many pages . It's ridiculous to see a group of hundreds of pro-Russian thugs, *all* armed with some sort of bashing weapon and (some with guns), looking for pro-Ukrainians just so they can beat the shit out of them.
edit: removed part of post, so this doesn't devolve into some argument and take away from Cheerio's post.
On May 05 2014 01:47 Nyxisto wrote: It's also funny how understanding Russia is of the Russian separatists in Ukraine. I wonder what would happen if the Tatars or any other minority in Russia would claim their own state.
Look at this map. This map represents all the people that didn't vote for the people running Kiev now. The pink, red and maroon parts are now running Ukraine. The blue part, and to some extent the grey parts voted for Yanukovych just because the alternative would be the people that are running Kiev today.
The blue part of the country, ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian-Russians are pissed.
Let's get the timeline and some facts strait: The people of Ukraine elected the last government including Yanukovych, who promised to sign the EU association treaty. Then when that is close to being done, Orange revolution participants get put into prison, Russia strong arms the Ukrainian government to not sign the treaty (Ukrainian guest workers can't pass the borders,gas prices go up, Russia threatens to create trade barriers...) and young people in Kiev go onto the streets because they think they're getting screwed. Then the elected government kicks Yanukovych out of office, and elects a new interim government, also new elections are supposed to happen in May, then all the shit happens that is happening right now.
Obviously an interim government is never the best solution,but given the fact Russia basically forced Ukraine into a position where they were forced to either side with the West or East, can't the people of Eastern Ukraine not simply wait a few months until they can elect whoever they think is best for their country instead of claiming independence and starting a civil war?
[..]On 29 July 2013 Russia banned the import of chocolate products made by the Ukrainian company Roshen and asked Belarus and Kazakhstan to follow suit. A Russian sanitary official stated that the company had not met quality and safety standards, but critics alleged that the ban was meant as a warning against Ukraine associating more closely with the EU. The owner of Roshen, Petro Poroshenko, is reported to be pro-European.[101] On 14 August 2013, Federal Customs Service of Russia officials began conducting more stringent inspections of cargo arriving from Ukraine than would normally be carried out.[102] This lasted until 20 August 2013[103] and was followed by statements from the Russian President's top economic advisor Sergey Glazyev arguing that the impact of Russia's response to Ukraine signing the AA, including tariffs and trade checks, could lead to default, a decline in the standard of living and "political and social unrest" in Ukraine, and would violate the Russian-Ukrainian strategic partnership and friendship treaty. The latter, he warned, would mean that Ukraine's statehood could not be guaranteed by Russia, which might intervene in the country at the request of pro-Russian regions.[104][105][106][107][...]
Cheerio at least keeps it factual, even though the crisis is happening in his country. Thank you for the post, I can't even bother with the shit most people are spouting in this thread. You all know who you are "both sides". Neither side has anything I can say would be "playing nice".
A civil war has nothing "nice" about it. There will be bloodshed, and innocent and guilty people will die on both sides, regardless of what happens. There will be cruel acts of cold blooded murder, because that is what a war is. I can understand emotions may run high when relatives or people whom you know are involved, but those promoting their pro-self views are quite unsightly.
On May 05 2014 02:09 Sermokala wrote: Thats what I've never liked about the whole situation. Everyone knows that yanukovych was corupt as hell but at the end of the day he was who the people voted for. In a real democracy he would resign and his sucessor would take over. In a real democracy thats what the people would demand. But instead We're in this weid quasi coup world where the leader of the country isn't elected by the people whos lives hes responsible for his day to day decisions.
Yes, too bad Russia didnt want the May 25th election to happen so there could be a real democracy.
Doesn't slightly seem like Nazi for me. Western democratic countires support current Ukrainian government who support these guys. Now, any reasonable thoughts why this should be tolerated by citizens of the country?
There's a mistake in the video. They are not chanting "Sieg Heil", but rather "geroyam slava" ("героям слава"). While the subtitle is incorrect, the meaning is basically the same, as this is the chant used by Ukrainian nationalists during the genocide of Wołyń.
On May 05 2014 02:09 Sermokala wrote: Thats what I've never liked about the whole situation. Everyone knows that yanukovych was corupt as hell but at the end of the day he was who the people voted for. In a real democracy he would resign and his sucessor would take over. In a real democracy thats what the people would demand. But instead We're in this weid quasi coup world where the leader of the country isn't elected by the people whos lives hes responsible for his day to day decisions.
Yes, too bad Russia didnt want the May 25th election to happen so there could be a real democracy.
Are you seriously implying that if those had happened [like they should and like they should have happened months earlier], there would be a real democracy? I would not say there is any evidence that allows to believe in this.
On May 05 2014 02:11 ForTehDarkseid wrote: wtf doublepost(
Yeah, it's propagandic video, especially at the end, but I guess it helps to understand why people fight this regime.
Because Russian propaganda has been blaring none stop for the last 6 months or because Russians are no longer capable of voting in free elections, father putin knows best? Every poll that has been run in Ukraine for presidential elections has shown Svoboda leader polling at between 1% and 3.5% of the popular vote, but of course him losing the elections spectacularly means that Putin no longer has a handy target to beat up, its hard to imagine an ex-boxer or an moderate oligarch as evil fascists -so better destabilize the country with as many useful fools as possible. In Ukraine there are two groups of people, those who wanted elections on May 25th and those who didnt. And those who dont began their campaign with undermining the elections with Crimea, rushing through its 'referendum', then the 'separatists' all conveniently exploded after Crimea was annexed -- not before mind you, before you have unarmed civilians, after Crimea is annexed suddenly police stations are being overrun with men armed with surface to air missiles, and all those areas overrun declare independence referendums, also ahead of the May 25th elections. This trend towards holding 'independence' referendums ahead of the actual presidential elections in time isnt just arbitrary paranoia of fascists, especially when the elections would be the most monitored elections in Ukrainian history, with thousands of foreign observers covering each poll.
On May 05 2014 02:09 Sermokala wrote: Thats what I've never liked about the whole situation. Everyone knows that yanukovych was corupt as hell but at the end of the day he was who the people voted for. In a real democracy he would resign and his sucessor would take over. In a real democracy thats what the people would demand. But instead We're in this weid quasi coup world where the leader of the country isn't elected by the people whos lives hes responsible for his day to day decisions.
Yes, too bad Russia didnt want the May 25th election to happen so there could be a real democracy.
Are you seriously implying that if those had happened [like they should and like they should have happened months earlier], there would be a real democracy? I would not say there is any evidence that allows to believe in this.
Putin only goal is to ruin the elections of 25th May. The interim government tries hard to organize elections as fast as possible, meanwhile Putin does everything to destabilize the situation, including invading Crimea, repeatedly holding military exercises at the border and menacing to intervene.
EPT
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