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On April 26 2014 01:44 nunez wrote:from ostrovsky interview (glad he's ok): Show nested quote +Vitaly Kovalchuk, a former member of the Euromaidan self-defense corps, who by his own admission came to Sloviansk with a group of Right Sector radicals who tried and failed to capture guns from pro-Russia militants. so right sector radicals are travelling from kiev to eastern ukraine to fight anti-maidan. so much for protests just 'turning violent'.
Before or after armed separatists took over government buildings...
Come on you can try harder then this.
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On April 26 2014 01:53 nunez wrote:
@m4ini
if you conflate russia with anti-maidan you might have a case, but that is a gross mischaracterization. i don't think most of eastern ukraine want to join russia, but most of them don't consider kiev govt legitimate either. they are of course turning to russia for support, just like maidan is turning to the west for support.
the parties that needs to come to agreement are not maidan and russia or us and anti-maidan. it's maidan and anti-maidan. maidan wouldn't back down from a democratically elected president, why on earth would you think the anti-maidan would back down from what they consider an illegitimate govt?
Need to shop, i'll answer later. You have a point i think, to some degree.
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@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict."
How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
edit:
You ask for a solution that isn't Maidan, or anti-Maidan, or Russia, or USA.
How about elections in May?
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On April 26 2014 00:45 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait. That is a good example of how not to respond constructively. You holding that Russia will not deescalate and blaming Kiev for not deescalating is on its own pointing fingers.  Besides, independent investigations of what and how? Prosecute what criminals and how? If only things could be solved that easily.
Not like independent reporters and observers are even allow do too much in the area anyways without threat of harm. So i'm sure independent investigators will be treated the same way. ionno what sorta of bubble word nunez lives in.
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On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez Show nested quote +
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
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On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come.
Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors.
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On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors.
And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
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@gorsameth which govt buildings are you referring too? this means that the easter shootings in slavyansk prolly where
@mc several of their blunders have been brought up already, but i'm not ukrainian master strategist, just liquidian posting my opinion. demanding that i go beyond an opinion on what direction they should be moving, and critisizing past events is absurd.
that right sector were dispatching people to slavyansk indicates that they might've been behind easter shootings(breaking easter truce).
callback:
In a statement, Russia's foreign ministry blamed Ukraine's Right Sector, a far-right paramilitary group which played a prominent role in the ousting of former president Viktor Yanukovych.
"Russia is indignant about this provocation by gunmen, which testifies to the lack of will on the part of the Kiev authorities to rein in and disarm nationalists and extremists," the statement said.
The Right Sector denied being involved in the Slavyansk shooting and blamed Russian special forces for the attack.
"It is a blasphemous provocation from Russia, blasphemous because it took place on a holy night for Christians, on Easter night. This was clearly carried out by Russian special forces," Artem Skoropadsky, a spokesman for the Right Sector, told Reuters. independent
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On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference?
Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
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On April 26 2014 02:09 nunez wrote:
@gorsameth which govt building are you referring too?
Oh i dont know. Police stations? City halls?
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On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
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On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people. How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along. I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
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On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people. How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention. Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independenceShow nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along. I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day. They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
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On April 26 2014 01:21 nunez wrote:
@radi
i see the problem, and i see the threat.
i wouldn't be comfortable echoing kiev's accusations of crimes about anti-maidan movement as a whole. they don't have the ability, authority or even desire to police ukraine like a democratic govt. they seem to be stonewalling victims of snipers in kiev, lying about the investigation, spreading disinfo and propaganda and doing violent 'anti-terrorism' crackdowns.
both sides has thugs and criminals on it and that have inderectly been overtly backed by us and russia respectively, which should be prosectued, but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict. ukraines govt shoulders the chief responsibility for ukraine, i didn't think that was pointing fingers nor did i mean to imply this situation to be straight-forward and simple.
@m4ini yes, i was mocking your absurd demand that i lay out a plan for de-escalation.
That is much better, thx. As for trusting the ukrainian government I try to stay away from them since they are pretty loose with their sources, to the point of mirroring Russia. That is unsurprising since Russian media have been extremely fast to typecast the temporary government as a vile fascist junta before they did anything!
I agree that US and Kerry in particular is not helping at all. But it seems to mirror the agitation from Russia and particularly Lavrov.
When that is said the proposed solution you put foreward is not specific enough to work. There is already, and has been since the end of february a date for an election and moving that now would reduce its credibility considerably. I don't see any logical improvement there.
When it comes to prooving backing of separatists it is almost impossible to get enough evidence for a court. Trying to prosecuting on that ground is thus futile. When it comes to specific actions you also have to ask "who is independent?" Ukraine is probably not. EU? Russia? US? It is hard to find an independent court with any claim of jurisdiction and who would want their secret backings to get public?
Normalisation of the situation is happening relatively peaceful in every place except for Slavyansk where things are pretty close to complete anarchy if OSCE is to be trusted.
Many of the people on the streets are very angry at the current government and most of them are locals, but the situation report from journalists before the crackdown is also that many of the people not in the streets are very afraid of the separatists and do not support them! I have heard that the Slavyansk rebellion has asked Russia for military support several times and a few days ago stories of the separatists giving interviews for gasoline for their patrols surfaced. How to deescalate the situation in Slavyansk is the problem more than anything and with the way things are deteriorating into a hostage taking/cleansing the only way foreward seen from my perspective would seem to be Russia denouncing the murders and hostage taking and putting some pressure on the separatists to deescalate!
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On April 26 2014 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:09 nunez wrote:
@gorsameth which govt building are you referring too? Oh i dont know. Police stations? City halls?
police station, the one where the violence was incited by the police man helping a guy off the roof?
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On April 26 2014 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:09 nunez wrote:
@gorsameth which govt building are you referring too? Oh i dont know. Police stations? City halls?
You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Euromaidan_regional_state_administration_occupations
On April 26 2014 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people. How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention. Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independenceOn April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along. I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day. They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious? I'm sure its been flowers and rainbows in Russia since the hostile takeover of Ukraine.
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On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people. How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention. Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
The protests had already turned violent by Yanukovych declaring them illegal and attempting to disperse them at that point if my dates are correct.
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On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote:
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
How the fuck is that supposed to happen? The dear leaders approval is going through the roof right now in Russia. It's a century old technique to divert from your internal problems by pointing the finger at the allegedly enemy at your border.
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On April 26 2014 02:20 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:09 nunez wrote:
@gorsameth which govt building are you referring too? Oh i dont know. Police stations? City halls? You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Euromaidan_regional_state_administration_occupationsShow nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people. How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention. Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independenceOn April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along. I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day. They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia? Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
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On April 26 2014 02:22 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 02:20 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:09 nunez wrote:
@gorsameth which govt building are you referring too? Oh i dont know. Police stations? City halls? You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Euromaidan_regional_state_administration_occupationsOn April 26 2014 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come. Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors. And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people. How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention. Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independenceOn April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote:@nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job. "both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ? Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along. I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day. They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia? Are you serious? Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
I'll rephrase, the russophobes that violently took power in Ukraine have stabilized both Russia and the Ukraine. This is what you believe?
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EPT
