On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote: @nunez [quote] It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come.
Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors.
And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote: @nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come.
Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors.
And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote: @nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Well if ukraine becomes part of russia :D Really the larger problems Russia has been having is because of their actions concerning ukraine...
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote: [quote] Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come.
Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors.
And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote: @nunez
but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
Which is why the accord was stupid, because it's like asking a guy with a lot of chips in the pot to fold his winning hand. How do you expect someone to do that without hanging something truly regime-ending over their head?
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
The government in Kiev is sending tanks to kill people opposing them, what country would be stupid enough not to position their army close to the border when there is chaos next door?
On April 26 2014 02:01 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] Yanokovych going free was not an option after he ordered the death of protestors.
And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:55 Mc wrote: @nunez [quote] It's kinda ridiculous to just say "this should be done" but have absolutely no clue on how one could implement this and mock people who ask you "how?". Maybe there isn't a solution and you think Ukraine is permanently fucked. If you do, say that. You keep just criticizing others approach but can't propose anything constructive yourself. Good job.
"both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict." How has the US escalated the conflict in *Eastern Ukraine* ?
Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Which happened because Russia invaded and annaxed the Crimea under false pretenses of racial oppression. So again. How did a post Madian Ukraine destabilize Russia?
On April 26 2014 02:03 zeo wrote: [quote] And I'm sure (the not elected) Turchynov staying in power is no longer an option after he sent the army against his own people.
How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 26 2014 01:59 zeo wrote: [quote] Yes, Ukraine was doomed to this outcome the moment Maidan went back on its deal with Yanukovych. No, there is no going back, Ukraine will be polarized and unstable for decades to come, which is what NATO and Russia wanted all along.
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Which happened because Russia invaded and annaxed the Crimea under false pretenses of racial oppression. So again. How did a post Madian Ukraine destabilize Russia?
Post-Maidan Ukraine caused what happened in Crimea.
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
The government in Kiev is sending tanks to kill people opposing them, what country would be stupid enough not to position their army close to the border when there is chaos next door?
Im sure Putin would just keep asking nicely if armed men took control of russian government buildings, roads, towns, taking hostages and declaring independance. He would refrain from calling them terrorists or describing there acts as criminal because after all, they are just people opposing him.
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
The government in Kiev is sending tanks to kill people opposing them, what country would be stupid enough not to position their army close to the border when there is chaos next door?
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
The government in Kiev is sending tanks to kill people opposing them, what country would be stupid enough not to position their army close to the border when there is chaos next door?
Kiev is specifically doing everything possible to avoid killing protestors/rebels who aren't armed. For example they are *ONLY* blockading Sloviansk source. The troops/tanks aren't entering Slavyansk. Also no civilian casualties have been reported or attributed to Ukrainian military in E. Ukraine.
Also, when did the Russia start conducting 'military exercises' on Ukraine's border? MARCH 7th. When did Ukraine send in it's military to E. Ukraine? Around the middle of April for the first time.
On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote: [quote]
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Which happened because Russia invaded and annaxed the Crimea under false pretenses of racial oppression. So again. How did a post Madian Ukraine destabilize Russia?
Post-Maidan Ukraine caused what happened in Crimea.
Back to that one ey. Remind me how that worked out last time you tried to argue it. Wait dont bother i'll tell it for you. Russia went in under the guise of protecting russian speaking locals while there was no threat against them. Once there they tried to provoke the Ukraine army into attacking them and when that failed they held a highly dubious referendum and declared the Crimea a part of Russia.
You'll never admit it but you don't have a single argument that holds up for your side of events and your trying to run around in circles hoping people will stop calling you out on your bullshit.
On April 26 2014 02:10 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] How many times do we need to give you a timeline of event before you can see a difference? Besides, there not even asking for his resignation so that doesn't seem to be a point of contention.
Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
On April 26 2014 02:13 Nyxisto wrote: [quote]
I don't see how the NATO or the EU for that matter profit from a destabilized Ukraine. The last thing Europe needs is another peripheral country that is broke and unstable. Russia on the other hand has a lot to gain from the situation, as I'm pretty sure Putin would take a broken Ukraine over a western-siding Ukraine any day.
They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Which happened because Russia invaded and annaxed the Crimea under false pretenses of racial oppression. So again. How did a post Madian Ukraine destabilize Russia?
Post-Maidan Ukraine caused what happened in Crimea.
So invading other countries under false pretenses and then getting sanctioned for it is the fault of the Ukraine? Interesting logic
Interesting article on Putin's strategy for Ukraine. It seems that by raising the confidence of pro-Russian Donetskians (is that a word?) via providing them implied military backup, and then giving them deniable but persistent support, is his preferred MO. It's also a MO that worked in Crimea, and seems to be working now.
Which is why the accord asked for Russia to de-escalate by withdrawing its army from the border.
The government in Kiev is sending tanks to kill people opposing them, what country would be stupid enough not to position their army close to the border when there is chaos next door?
Kiev is specifically doing everything possible to avoid killing protestors/rebels who aren't armed. For example they are *ONLY* blockading Sloviansk source. The troops/tanks aren't entering Slavyansk. Also no civilian casualties have been reported or attributed to Ukrainian military in E. Ukraine.
Also, when did the Russia start conducting 'military exercises' on Ukraine's border? MARCH 7th. When did Ukraine send in it's military to E. Ukraine? Around the middle of April for the first time.
Nice argument.
And I'm sure you would have been completely ok with Yanukovych entering and blocking Lviv with the army. And only people with guns would have been killed.
On April 26 2014 02:13 zeo wrote: [quote] Where in that timeline did Yanukovych send the army into Lviv after they declared independence
[quote] They profit when a destabled Ukraine starts destabilizing Russia
how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Which happened because Russia invaded and annaxed the Crimea under false pretenses of racial oppression. So again. How did a post Madian Ukraine destabilize Russia?
Post-Maidan Ukraine caused what happened in Crimea.
So invading other countries under false pretenses and then getting sanctioned for it is the fault of the Ukraine? Interesting logic
Nope, Ukraine being taken over by a violent mob and alienating half the country was what happened. Its also not the fault of Ukraine as a whole, but of the people behind maidan.
On April 26 2014 02:16 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] how the fuck are they destabilizing Russia?
Are you serious?
Yes i am serious. Do tell me how a post madian Ukraine is destablizing Russia. I would love to know.
As I edited in before but I'll post it again. It's flowers and rainbows in Russia right now?
Sorry we dont get to see how its going inside Russia on the news so yes I am asking you how the Ukraine is destabilizing Russia.
So since the violent overthrow in Ukraine there has been no threats or sanctions sent Russia's way? Wonder why there are like 200 pages predicting the imminent downfall and economic collapse of Russia. hmm
Which happened because Russia invaded and annaxed the Crimea under false pretenses of racial oppression. So again. How did a post Madian Ukraine destabilize Russia?
Post-Maidan Ukraine caused what happened in Crimea.
So invading other countries under false pretenses and then getting sanctioned for it is the fault of the Ukraine? Interesting logic
Nope, Ukraine being taken over by a violent mob and alienating half the country was what happened. Its also not the fault of Ukraine as a whole, but of the people behind maidan.
Oh yeah, I forgot, the evil fascist junta that took control over Ukraine and needed to be eradicated by glorious Russia. I'll not continue this discussion, it does not make any sense to talk to you.
EPT
