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On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait.
So you basically have no idea, did i understand you correctly?
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On April 26 2014 00:35 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait. So you basically have no idea, did i understand you correctly?
I'm sure the current plan of murder and violence against anyone anti-maidan is a much better solution.
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Sigh as said before. Ukraine tried to de escalate when the accord was reached earlier. They stopped there operations against the separatists.
Neither Russia nor the separatists themselves did anything. At this point its obvious the separatists have no interest in stopping and you cant de escalate unless both sides are willing. So the remaining option is to remove them by force.
And how this is different from Madian?
Madian was peaceful until government violence tried to drive them away. The E Ukraine protests turned violent on there own.
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On April 26 2014 00:40 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:35 m4ini wrote:On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait. So you basically have no idea, did i understand you correctly? I'm sure the current plan of murder and violence against anyone anti-maidan is a much better solution.
Funny since the only murders we know of sofar have come from separatists kidnapping and killing politicians/journalists.
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On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait.
That is a good example of how not to respond constructively.
You holding that Russia will not deescalate and blaming Kiev for not deescalating is on its own pointing fingers. 
Besides, independent investigations of what and how? Prosecute what criminals and how? If only things could be solved that easily.
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On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait.
So all you do in this forum is bark without any constructive suggestions/arguments. Good job.
Ukraine, can't do much as long as Russia threatens to invade. Ukraine decided it's going to counter attack and call Russia's bluff. It seems like they are trying to attack the rebels where it's "safe" and do their best to avoid civilian casualties :
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-security-service-official-says-there-will-be-no-storming-of-sloviansk-345127.html
Given the situation, and Russia's refusal to deescalate it seems like it's a pretty reasonable response.
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On April 26 2014 00:40 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:35 m4ini wrote:On April 26 2014 00:33 nunez wrote:
yes, it's ironic and hypocritical and yes, let me quickly lay out a detailed draft of how ukraine should proceed to de-escalate the situation, start up independent investigations, prosecute criminalsconcerned and establish heaven on earth.
step one: round up any non-ukrainian pointing their finger on 'one side' up, back tie them, put them in a bag.
step two: wait. So you basically have no idea, did i understand you correctly? I'm sure the current plan of murder and violence against anyone anti-maidan is a much better solution.
Oh, look, another oracle.
Feel free to elaborate what you think they should doing.
PS: only one side in this "sub-conflict" resorted to murder, violence and torture, in case you have forgotten.
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Zeo has never contributed anything to thread, please just ignore his posts.
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Nah, too much fun to see him disappear as soon as unrefutable stuff is on the table. Keeps the thread entertaining. Not to mention, i'd like to see resolutions of the "but kiev has the ball nao!!". So far, none to be seen, quite the opposite even.
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On April 26 2014 00:50 m4ini wrote:
Nah, too much fun to see him disappear as soon as unrefutable stuff is on the table. Keeps the thread entertaining. Not to mention, i'd like to see resolutions of the "but kiev has the ball nao!!". So far, none to be seen, quite the opposite even.
+1 Sometimes it's too much to handle, but it's enjoyable to explain to idiots why they are idiots.
And here is something ghan posted earlier, but I'll repost since it's easy to overlook it in the sea of links he posts (no offence ghan, some of the info you post is good. some is too twitter opinioniated )
https://news.vice.com/articles/i-had-it-pretty-easy-because-i-was-let-go-simon-ostrovsky-on-his-detention-in-sloviansk
It's really concerning how badly these 'protestors' are violating basic human rights. A lot of what I heard before, I ignored as possible propaganda. However, I've really learned to trust this Ostrovksy guy. He gave such quality reports from Vice news, that I can't imagine that he'd suddenly start fabricating or exaggerating. This shit is real :/
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"National Guard blocked all entry points to Slavyansk".
Seems like they want to block any possible incoming support to separatists.
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@radi
i see the problem, and i see the threat.
i wouldn't be comfortable echoing kiev's accusations of crimes about anti-maidan movement as a whole. they don't have the ability, authority or even desire to police ukraine like a democratic govt. they seem to be stonewalling victims of snipers in kiev, lying about the investigation, spreading disinfo and propaganda and doing violent 'anti-terrorism' crackdowns.
both sides has thugs and criminals on it and that have inderectly been overtly backed by us and russia respectively, which should be prosectued, but first and formost they need a as non-violent as possible normalization and de-escalation and revert back to a proper democratic govt that can facilitate this process.
both russia and us has self-servingly been escalating the tension in this conflict. ukraines govt shoulders the chief responsibility for ukraine, i didn't think that was pointing fingers nor did i mean to imply this situation to be straight-forward and simple.
@m4ini yes, i was mocking your absurd demand that i lay out a plan for de-escalation.
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7 OSCE observers and 5 members of the Ukrainian military are being held in a Slovyansk SBU building:
Заручники перебувають у приміщенні місцевого УСБУ. Тривають переговори щодо їх звільнення. 25 квітня 2014 року об 11.40 на в’їзді до м. Слов’янськ зі сторони м. Краматорська невідомі особи зупинили автобус із 13-ма пасажирами. Серед них знаходилися 7 представників ОБСЄ, 5 представників Збройних Сил України та водій транспортного засобу. Терористи відвели автобус із пасажирами на територію УСБУ в м. Слов’янськ. Наразі захоплені громадяни перебувають там. На даний час тривають переговори із представниками проросійських сил. Вони відмовилися звільняти заручників, мотивуючи це необхідністю їх спілкування з компетентними органами Російської Федерації. Source.
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Keep on spamming useless twitter junk, I'm sure there is some liberal-arts student whose opinion you still haven't posted here.
On April 26 2014 00:50 m4ini wrote:
Nah, too much fun to see him disappear as soon as unrefutable stuff is on the table. Keeps the thread entertaining. Not to mention, i'd like to see resolutions of the "but kiev has the ball nao!!". So far, none to be seen, quite the opposite even.
I can post in this thread whenever I want to, if you are implying that your anecdotal evidence and constantly disproved propaganda is somehow stopping me from posting in this thread you are mistaken.
Oh, and I'm sure if nunez cannot come up with a solution to world peace everything he says is wrong. lol
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A bus with 7 OSCE observers has been missing since yesterday. The members of the mission is in Slavyansk to monitor the situation under a deal with blessing from Russia.
Latest official information from april 21 described the situation as deteriorating and the situation for the mission as "marginal". They had abandoned an assessment of a shooting because of "unpredictable security risks" and descirbed crime as having risen significantly. (OSCE)
Ukraines defence minister has said that the bus has been capered by separatists and another dodgy source claims a separatist leader has confirmed that the mission has been captured because one of the members is a spy.
(source)
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On April 26 2014 01:37 zeo wrote:Keep on spamming useless twitter junk, I'm sure there is some liberal-arts student whose opinion you still haven't posted here. Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 00:50 m4ini wrote:
Nah, too much fun to see him disappear as soon as unrefutable stuff is on the table. Keeps the thread entertaining. Not to mention, i'd like to see resolutions of the "but kiev has the ball nao!!". So far, none to be seen, quite the opposite even. I can post in this thread whenever I want to, if you are implying that your anecdotal evidence and constantly disproved propaganda is somehow stopping me from posting in this thread you are mistaken. Oh, and I'm sure if nunez cannot come up with a solution to world peace everything he says is wrong. lol
The tweets he posts are actually relevant, and have much more facts than anything you've ever said.
And you can post whenever, is that why you randomly appear, post some nonsense and some fake youtube videos and photoshops, spew some more nonsense russian propaganda, fail to refute any points, ignore all the evidence against your points, then dissappear again? And nunez hasn't been saying anything useful, only waving his hands going "nope, CIA fault lol!" But no, do go on. Tell us how it's america's fault that russian backed/russian soldiers in ukraine are taking hostages and murdering politicians.
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from ostrovsky interview (glad he's ok):
Vitaly Kovalchuk, a former member of the Euromaidan self-defense corps, who by his own admission came to Sloviansk with a group of Right Sector radicals who tried and failed to capture guns from pro-Russia militants.
so right sector radicals are travelling from kiev to eastern ukraine to fight anti-maidan. so much for protests just 'turning violent'.
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@m4ini yes, i was mocking your absurd demand that i lay out a plan for de-escalation.
Well to me it seems to be able to criticise a something, you would need to have an idea how to make it better. Even if it's just the grander scale. Since you need to refer to "mocking", i guess all you do is just blabbering because you simply don't want to accept that the ball is not in kievs field. Which is funny in the first place, since that is not how de-escalation works. What you describe is "resolving a hostage situation" - give something, get something.
If two parties agree to a plan to "de-escalate", both parties do what was agreed upon. There's no "i wait until they lay down the weapons, then i will lay down mine". Both do it at the same time. Kiev did, and even if they didn't met all demands, the opposite party did nothing.
On the point: you call my "demand" (i'm bad at english, but even i can distinguish between a question and demand) absurd for one of two reasons. First, you're a smart person, and you know that there's no de-escalation possible with russias/antimaidans stance - but you bait the discussion anyways, or, you're dumb enough to think that you can de-escalate a situation when one party already showed the means and commitment to escalate it further.
I can post in this thread whenever I want to, if you are implying that your anecdotal evidence and constantly disproved propaganda is somehow stopping me from posting in this thread you are mistaken.
Oh, sure you can. I even said, it keeps it entertaining. It would be just a collection of tweets and news without you and others. On the second part, the "anectodal evidence and constantly disproved propaganda".. Is that a joke? You argue based on exactly that. At best.
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Violent crowd takes over a country > start arming violent crowd and integrating them into army > east of country does not like violent crowd ruling their country > become violent crowd themselves and demand the country return to normal > original violent crowd sends tanks to crush second violent crowd.
Maidan sent tanks to Slovyansk to murder the people opposing them.
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@m4ini
if you conflate russia with anti-maidan you might have a case, but that is a gross mischaracterization. i don't think most of eastern ukraine want to join russia, but most of them don't consider kiev govt legitimate either. they are of course turning to russia for support, just like maidan is turning to the west for support.
the parties that needs to come to agreement are not maidan and russia or us and anti-maidan. it's maidan and anti-maidan. maidan wouldn't back down from a democratically elected president, why on earth would you think the anti-maidan would back down from what they consider an illegitimate govt?
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EPT
