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On April 22 2014 00:44 BeaSteR wrote:
It is amusing following this thread seeing nunez and LegalLord time and time again come to the aid of Russia. The thread has derailed into two sides throwing dirt at each other. Yes svoboda and the "neo-nazis" are bad, but is it not equally bad for heavily armed men to claim government buildings and take hostages? A more nuanced discussion from the pro-Russians please, can you admit that Russia did anything wrong?
Whenever a faulty Russian action is pointed out pro-Russians point to: but the US did that and that. So the US acting police means Russia can behave however it pleases? Ukraine/Kiev = US? Seriously how can anyone believe that the demonstrations leading up to Yanukovych leaving was because of some western conspiracy??
What's even more amusing is seeing people like you who think as long as you are on a forum where most people agree with your point of view, you must be on the right side, regardless of the evidence. Why is it so hard to believe? You say it as if it's never happened before.
"So the US acting police means Russia can behave however it pleases?", well looks like it, the point is that the US set a bad precedent now no one who has the force to stand up for themselves needs to follow the "rules" either. I'm not saying they should be able to do whatever they want, but Russia can and is behaving however it pleases, are you gonna stop them with your criticism?
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On April 22 2014 21:25 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +
The link is in German.
(And this comes from a left-leaning magazine in Germany).
You shouldn't link crap like this. It's obvious, what opinion i have on the whole thing, but.. Yeah, no. This article is based on nothing really, it's an editors rant. He's discrediting and namecalling people who vote left, not much more. It's an opinion, as much as anyone elses. Don't go too much into these "indi-pages", 95% of what you can read there is utter bs.
Actually, I wondered whether to link it, but as far as i could see, Cicero was legit, just unknown to me. Can you give us a brief overview of the magazine, its leanings, history, etc? Also, blame my German skills if you will, I didn't think the article bashed the people who vote left (e.g., SPD), only the party Die Linke.
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No Smoking Spetsnaz Gun in E. Ukraine... I am not saying there could not be Russian special forces' reps in E. Ukraine or even groups. There might as well be some, as this has happened in other post-Soviet republics in the past. What I am saying that I have not seen any photos so far to pass as solid evidence. In Crimea, the guys wore Russian uniforms and spotted some of Russian special forces' weapons. Also, some forgot to remove all of the name tags which then got photographed while they were patrolling in Crimea which then led to their social network profiles that identified them as special forces with some of them even posting updates in these networks from Crimea. http://slon.ru/fast/russia/v-krymu-nashli-spetsnaz-gru-pokhozhe-chto-da-1066422.xhtml That I considered to be pretty close to a smoking gun, but photos I have seen so far from E. Ukraine are not. livejournal
Another NYT-Michael Gordon Special?
There is now a pattern to New York Times “investigative” stories that seek to pin the blame on some nefarious foreign enemy, as in the 2002 article on Iraq buying aluminum tubes for nuclear centrifuges; the 2013 “vector analysis” tracing sarin-laden rockets to a Syrian military base; and now a photographic analysis proving that Russian soldiers are behind unrest in eastern Ukraine.
All these stories draw hard conclusions from very murky evidence while ignoring or brushing aside alternative explanations. They also pile up supportive acclamations for their conclusions from self-interested sources while treating any doubters as rubes. And, these three articles all involved reporter Michael R. Gordon.
... consortium news
![[image loading]](http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ukraine041714/s_u01_RTR3L656.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AkckFq6.jpg)
that guy lost some weigth ghanburg, i say.
god damned alternative media debunking our most reputable news sources' positive warmongering!
grrr.
Finally, let’s focus to a single individual - the mystery person whom has been seen in photos and videos both in Crimea (18.3.) and in eastern Ukraine (12.4.). Western sources have identified “Mr Silencer” both as Russian SpN and western or Ukrainian PMC. Same sources have identified his weapon as “new Russian sniper rifle” or “M16 or M4 from USA”. Seriously? ![[image loading]](http://www.suomensotilas.fi/sites/default/files/field/image/Ukr3.jpg) The rifle in question is semi-automatic Z-15 (AR15-clone), as manufactured by Zbroyar in Kiev, Ukraine. It has the following modifications: Adams Arms gas piston conversion (US) Daniel Defence rail system (US) Magpull collapsible stock and fore grip (US) Hogue/RRA grip (US) Tactical Systems silencer (Ukraine). The one and same weapon has been fitted with different optics in Crimea and in eastern Ukraine: EOTech XPS2-0 (US) w/ Vortex VMX3 magnifier (US) in eastern Ukraine Zeiss 6,5-20x50 Conquest (Germany) in Crimea That is not a rifle of a Russian SpN or hard-core operator, but of a 42-year-old avid firearms (and air gun) enthusiast and hunter from Simferopol. So Mr Breedlove and Mr Ripley, Mr Silencer and I may both drive SUVs, but neither of us works as a truck driver. If your own analysts really can’t figure out his license plate’s number, you can always call me. ... PS. There is little doubt that there are real gremlins from Kremlin working at eastern Ukraine. But they don’t field AKs nor pose to photojournalists as Easter Bunnies.
more analysis from that finnish military mag on question of russian forces in eastern ukraine.
The Little Green Men Are Different This Time
...
Here’s a brief summary of the radical materiel differences between the two cases:
In Crimea all soldiers used modern small arms (5,45 mm AK74M, 7,62 mm AKMS, 7,62 mm SVDS, 9,30 mm VSS etc.) as currently issued by Russia, but in East Ukraine you see mainly previous generation AKS74s and AK74s from the 70s and 80s.
In Crimea half of the soldiers armed with AKs were also issued with GP-series of 40 mm grenade launchers, as expected, but in East Ukraine you see practically none of these.
In Crimea practically all of the troops, line and special, wore modern ballistic protection for head and upper torso, but in East Ukraine you see practically none.
In Crimea 25 % of soldiers were armed with excellent 7,62 mm PKP/PKM general purpose machine guns, but in East Ukraine you see no PK-series, only Soviet-era 5,45 mm RPK74s.
In Crimea 25–50 % of soldiers were also armed with RPG-series of lightweight disposable anti-armor weapons, but in East Ukraine you see practically none.
... suomensotilas
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On April 22 2014 22:17 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 21:25 m4ini wrote:You shouldn't link crap like this. It's obvious, what opinion i have on the whole thing, but.. Yeah, no. This article is based on nothing really, it's an editors rant. He's discrediting and namecalling people who vote left, not much more. It's an opinion, as much as anyone elses. Don't go too much into these "indi-pages", 95% of what you can read there is utter bs. Actually, I wondered whether to link it, but as far as i could see, Cicero was legit, just unknown to me. Can you give us a brief overview of the magazine, its leanings, history, etc? Also, blame my German skills if you will, I didn't think the article bashed the people who vote left (e.g., SPD), only the party Die Linke.
I actually don't know that page, just read that specific article (and the headlines of others). I'm not saying cicero is not legit (when i said "crap like this", i meant the article itself), i'm saying this article is just a personal opinion of a ranting editor. There's no substance to it. I'm not bashing anyones languageskills, why would i. English isn't my first language, and i'm far from good there as well. ;P
Basically, i got "careful" after reading this sentence, pretty much at the beginning: "Nämlich den einer Ansammlung von Wirrköpfen, die mental noch immer mitten im Kalten Krieg stecken" (particularly the one of a collection of nutjobs, who are still mentally stuck in the cold war). A personal attack pretty much at the beginning of the article is never a good sign. The comments kinda reflect that as well - it's more a personal crusade against die Linke (justified or unjustified doesn't matter in this case - it's just a personal view of an unknown editor). It's not professional journalism. Even though i might agree on certain specific things (not a big fan of die Linke) - this article is what we in germany call "Hetze". Rabble-rousing? Maybe Nyxisto can help me out there, i don't know the english word for it.
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Apparently nunez thinks his livejournal is a source.
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zz.
Simon Saradzhyan is a research fellow at Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University.[1] Prior to joining the Belfer Center, Saradzhyan worked as a researcher for East West Institute and as a consultant for the United Nations and World Bank. Saradzhyan has also previously worked as deputy editor of Moscow Times and has contributed articles for many other publications as well, such The Times, the Sunday Telegraph, Defense News, Space News and Homeland Defense Journal. He is an expert in security and foreign policy affairs and has authored a number of academic papers on the subject.
i dunno how accurate his wiki page is, but seems like he has a clue.
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On April 22 2014 22:21 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +No Smoking Spetsnaz Gun in E. Ukraine... I am not saying there could not be Russian special forces' reps in E. Ukraine or even groups. There might as well be some, as this has happened in other post-Soviet republics in the past. What I am saying that I have not seen any photos so far to pass as solid evidence. In Crimea, the guys wore Russian uniforms and spotted some of Russian special forces' weapons. Also, some forgot to remove all of the name tags which then got photographed while they were patrolling in Crimea which then led to their social network profiles that identified them as special forces with some of them even posting updates in these networks from Crimea. http://slon.ru/fast/russia/v-krymu-nashli-spetsnaz-gru-pokhozhe-chto-da-1066422.xhtml That I considered to be pretty close to a smoking gun, but photos I have seen so far from E. Ukraine are not. livejournalShow nested quote +Another NYT-Michael Gordon Special?
There is now a pattern to New York Times “investigative” stories that seek to pin the blame on some nefarious foreign enemy, as in the 2002 article on Iraq buying aluminum tubes for nuclear centrifuges; the 2013 “vector analysis” tracing sarin-laden rockets to a Syrian military base; and now a photographic analysis proving that Russian soldiers are behind unrest in eastern Ukraine.
All these stories draw hard conclusions from very murky evidence while ignoring or brushing aside alternative explanations. They also pile up supportive acclamations for their conclusions from self-interested sources while treating any doubters as rubes. And, these three articles all involved reporter Michael R. Gordon.
... consortium newsthat guy lost some weigth ghanburg, i say. god damned alternative media debunking our most reputable news sources' positive warmongering! grrr. Show nested quote +Finally, let’s focus to a single individual - the mystery person whom has been seen in photos and videos both in Crimea (18.3.) and in eastern Ukraine (12.4.). Western sources have identified “Mr Silencer” both as Russian SpN and western or Ukrainian PMC. Same sources have identified his weapon as “new Russian sniper rifle” or “M16 or M4 from USA”. Seriously? The rifle in question is semi-automatic Z-15 (AR15-clone), as manufactured by Zbroyar in Kiev, Ukraine. It has the following modifications: Adams Arms gas piston conversion (US) Daniel Defence rail system (US) Magpull collapsible stock and fore grip (US) Hogue/RRA grip (US) Tactical Systems silencer (Ukraine). The one and same weapon has been fitted with different optics in Crimea and in eastern Ukraine: EOTech XPS2-0 (US) w/ Vortex VMX3 magnifier (US) in eastern Ukraine Zeiss 6,5-20x50 Conquest (Germany) in Crimea That is not a rifle of a Russian SpN or hard-core operator, but of a 42-year-old avid firearms (and air gun) enthusiast and hunter from Simferopol. So Mr Breedlove and Mr Ripley, Mr Silencer and I may both drive SUVs, but neither of us works as a truck driver. If your own analysts really can’t figure out his license plate’s number, you can always call me. ... PS. There is little doubt that there are real gremlins from Kremlin working at eastern Ukraine. But they don’t field AKs nor pose to photojournalists as Easter Bunnies. suomensotilas(huh?) more analysis from that finnish military mag on question of russian forces in eastern ukraine. Show nested quote +The Little Green Men Are Different This Time
...
Here’s a brief summary of the radical materiel differences between the two cases:
In Crimea all soldiers used modern small arms (5,45 mm AK74M, 7,62 mm AKMS, 7,62 mm SVDS, 9,30 mm VSS etc.) as currently issued by Russia, but in East Ukraine you see mainly previous generation AKS74s and AK74s from the 70s and 80s.
In Crimea half of the soldiers armed with AKs were also issued with GP-series of 40 mm grenade launchers, as expected, but in East Ukraine you see practically none of these.
In Crimea practically all of the troops, line and special, wore modern ballistic protection for head and upper torso, but in East Ukraine you see practically none.
In Crimea 25 % of soldiers were armed with excellent 7,62 mm PKP/PKM general purpose machine guns, but in East Ukraine you see no PK-series, only Soviet-era 5,45 mm RPK74s.
In Crimea 25–50 % of soldiers were also armed with RPG-series of lightweight disposable anti-armor weapons, but in East Ukraine you see practically none.
... suomensotilas
Could you give the pro-russian opinion on the actor who played the part of three different people without changing costumes?
Forbes Article
I'm not sure if it can be explained as easily as the beard but I am anxious to see what you think.
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On April 22 2014 22:21 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +No Smoking Spetsnaz Gun in E. Ukraine... I am not saying there could not be Russian special forces' reps in E. Ukraine or even groups. There might as well be some, as this has happened in other post-Soviet republics in the past. What I am saying that I have not seen any photos so far to pass as solid evidence. In Crimea, the guys wore Russian uniforms and spotted some of Russian special forces' weapons. Also, some forgot to remove all of the name tags which then got photographed while they were patrolling in Crimea which then led to their social network profiles that identified them as special forces with some of them even posting updates in these networks from Crimea. http://slon.ru/fast/russia/v-krymu-nashli-spetsnaz-gru-pokhozhe-chto-da-1066422.xhtml That I considered to be pretty close to a smoking gun, but photos I have seen so far from E. Ukraine are not. livejournalAnother NYT-Michael Gordon Special?
There is now a pattern to New York Times “investigative” stories that seek to pin the blame on some nefarious foreign enemy, as in the 2002 article on Iraq buying aluminum tubes for nuclear centrifuges; the 2013 “vector analysis” tracing sarin-laden rockets to a Syrian military base; and now a photographic analysis proving that Russian soldiers are behind unrest in eastern Ukraine.
All these stories draw hard conclusions from very murky evidence while ignoring or brushing aside alternative explanations. They also pile up supportive acclamations for their conclusions from self-interested sources while treating any doubters as rubes. And, these three articles all involved reporter Michael R. Gordon.
... consortium newsthat guy lost some weigth ghanburg, i say. god damned alternative media debunking our most reputable news sources' positive warmongering! grrr. Finally, let’s focus to a single individual - the mystery person whom has been seen in photos and videos both in Crimea (18.3.) and in eastern Ukraine (12.4.). Western sources have identified “Mr Silencer” both as Russian SpN and western or Ukrainian PMC. Same sources have identified his weapon as “new Russian sniper rifle” or “M16 or M4 from USA”. Seriously? The rifle in question is semi-automatic Z-15 (AR15-clone), as manufactured by Zbroyar in Kiev, Ukraine. It has the following modifications: Adams Arms gas piston conversion (US) Daniel Defence rail system (US) Magpull collapsible stock and fore grip (US) Hogue/RRA grip (US) Tactical Systems silencer (Ukraine). The one and same weapon has been fitted with different optics in Crimea and in eastern Ukraine: EOTech XPS2-0 (US) w/ Vortex VMX3 magnifier (US) in eastern Ukraine Zeiss 6,5-20x50 Conquest (Germany) in Crimea That is not a rifle of a Russian SpN or hard-core operator, but of a 42-year-old avid firearms (and air gun) enthusiast and hunter from Simferopol. So Mr Breedlove and Mr Ripley, Mr Silencer and I may both drive SUVs, but neither of us works as a truck driver. If your own analysts really can’t figure out his license plate’s number, you can always call me. ... PS. There is little doubt that there are real gremlins from Kremlin working at eastern Ukraine. But they don’t field AKs nor pose to photojournalists as Easter Bunnies. (huh?) more analysis from that finnish military mag on question of russian forces in eastern ukraine. The Little Green Men Are Different This Time
...
Here’s a brief summary of the radical materiel differences between the two cases:
In Crimea all soldiers used modern small arms (5,45 mm AK74M, 7,62 mm AKMS, 7,62 mm SVDS, 9,30 mm VSS etc.) as currently issued by Russia, but in East Ukraine you see mainly previous generation AKS74s and AK74s from the 70s and 80s.
In Crimea half of the soldiers armed with AKs were also issued with GP-series of 40 mm grenade launchers, as expected, but in East Ukraine you see practically none of these.
In Crimea practically all of the troops, line and special, wore modern ballistic protection for head and upper torso, but in East Ukraine you see practically none.
In Crimea 25 % of soldiers were armed with excellent 7,62 mm PKP/PKM general purpose machine guns, but in East Ukraine you see no PK-series, only Soviet-era 5,45 mm RPK74s.
In Crimea 25–50 % of soldiers were also armed with RPG-series of lightweight disposable anti-armor weapons, but in East Ukraine you see practically none.
... suomensotilas
I can vouch for SuomenSotilas (translation: Finnish Soldier), it's a well respected Finnish magazine that goes well beyond gun-talk and provides solid foreign policy analysis. This is the important part (the Finnish articles are better, but it's nice that they have some articles translated too .
The New York Times is one of the most respected newspapers in the world. I for one look up to them in many ways. Unfortunately they have now fallen in a trap. Yesterday NYTimes published an article “Photos Link Masked Men in East Ukraine to Russia”. In this article their team, including chief military correspondent Michael R. Gordon, cites General Breedlove’s (NATO SACEUR) analysis and several pictures provided by the Ukrainian government as “direct evidence of a Russian hand in eastern Ukraine”. It appears as Nato's analysts have hard time telling a modern Russian issue small arms from Ukrainian issue Soviet-era plum clubs, and those pictures contain Mr Silencer and Mr Airsofter from Crimea and Mr Criminal from Chechnya. As you can read from our story published three days ago, both Gen Breedloves’s analysis and these pictures are as vapor clouds of evidence of Russian involvement as “Iraq’s WMDs identified by intelligence experts” – which Mr Gordon, along with Ms Miller, notoriously promoted in NYTimes during those dark days of 2002. NYTimes, you really need to stand up and climb out of this foxhole. And fast. Public sphere both needs and deserves better intel and journalism. PS. I’ll eat my old combat boots if it later turns out that GRU didn’t have a few extra aces in play in eastern Ukraine, but I’m not passing that as "direct evidence" or "link" of anything other than my acquired taste. Author is a Finnish weapons systems and military analyst who has done consultancy work both in Moscow and Kiev. Mr Pulkki was one of the first to call Mr Putin’s bluff and identify Russian SpN (breaking here) in operation in the Crimean Peninsula. © Suomen Sotilas & Arto Pulkki 2014-04-22 Source.
That means that the NYT has made a massive mistake. Knowing from previous cases, they won't even admit it though... but good to know. See, even Nunez contributes useful material to this thread.
But I'm guessing we can all agree with Pulkki that this is just a different version of the Crimean situation, with FSB and army personnel having been captured or identified in Eastern Ukraine already. The separatists are controlled by Russia, with the aim of destabilizing Ukraine (so far, imo, the most plausible goal was identified in the NovyRussia article above, but annexation is still a possibility if the tactical situation arises.).
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i think nyt redacted their faulty articles mentioned in the consortiumnews case, but they waited a good while.
in the piece you quote he speculates that there is russian foreign military intelligence is doing work in ukraine, which seems like a safe bet. can you provide some more info on fsb and army personell being identified? or separatists being controlled by russia with the aim of destabalizing russia?
are you implying that it being likely that russian intelligence is involved in protests in eastern ukraine means that they are controlled by russia? and with the intent of de-stabilizing ukraine? what does cia being involved with the euromaidan movement imply then by this same logic (i think this is a safe bet too after brennans secret visit)? that the euromaidan is being controlled by washington? and what is their goal in that case?
you're in no position to condescend, considering what lead to these posts...
@tulkas enough with the vapid 'pro-russian' pidgeonholing.
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@Nunez
Everything I refer to I have posted in this thread. If you don't want to scroll back, just use the TL search function, add a requirement that it's a link. Check out, for example, the Vice story. Also search for "arrested". The next story unfolding currently is the identification of the Typhoon special unit from St. Petersburg, but there's no good source for that yet. I'll post the stuff as it comes.
***
Surprisingly strong and swift reaction from Sweden:
I guess they really didn't like the leaked Russian invasion plans...
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So the pro-Russian separatists have started arresting journalists again. This time the guys from Vice news whose reports have been linked in this thread numerous times.
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nunez seems to be under the impression earlier in the week Putin did not admit that unmarked russian soldiers were involved with the taking of crimea pre-annexation. Ofc while claiming that russian special forces were not causing unrest in eastern ukraine.
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On April 22 2014 23:25 LaughingTulkas wrote:Could you give the pro-russian opinion on the actor who played the part of three different people without changing costumes? Forbes ArticleI'm not sure if it can be explained as easily as the beard but I am anxious to see what you think.
@Nunez
How about responding to LaughingTulkas? What do you think of Russian TV making such obviously forced propaganda? Russia is using very aggressive anti-West lies/propaganda on all their TV channels.
I agree with you that we don't have definite proof of troops or covert ops in Ukraine. The photos, neither I nor you (nor livejournal) can tell whether they are actual 'proof'.But, the point to argue is whether Russia is actively causing/supporting the unrest in E. Ukraine. The answer to this is definitely YES. As I mentioned troop build ups, threats directly from Putin to intervene, and non-stop media propaganda that lies and distorts the actual situation (see the link that LaughingTulkas posted), IS causing/supporting the unrest.
It seems quiet clear that Russia is supporting the rebels more directly (but that you can in theory debate). Russia's actions (military threats, resolutions, non-stop propaganda) are very similar to what they did in Crimea. The actions of the rebels follow a similar strategy as in Crimea (although you could say they are just copying). It's in Russia's interest to destabilize Ukraine and have revenge on Ukraine. This all leads me to believe that Russia is proving guns/training/planning, but maybe not directly troops. It's also almost for sure that amongst the more army-like protestors, there are non-Ukranian's from Russia. Are they currently members of the Russian army? Probably not.
You seem to be saying that Russia isn't doing any of this? If you are, then you are completely blind... As to the CIA helping EuroMaidan, Brennan visited Ukraine AFTER Euromaidan happened. There is 0 evidence of CIA involvement. The only argument you have is that the CIA is evil and has done similar things before.
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WTF. That sucks. That guy was a really good PROFESSIONAL journalist. He clearly empathized with the Ukrainians, but he did his best to not let that show. He did a really good job showing both sides of the story- showing the pro-Russia supporters, and asking them questions.
In his twitter you can even find things like- "Ok, looks like we have a name in ColonelGate, seems to be Horlivka local Igor Bezler who may be a retired Lt. Col. of some kind" referring to the guy who told the police that he is a Russian Officer. This shows clear dedication to spreading the truth and not propaganda.
But I guess what the Donetsk People's Republic fears most is the truth...
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On April 23 2014 03:05 Mc wrote:WTF. That sucks. That guy was a really good PROFESSIONAL journalist. He clearly empathized with the Ukrainians, but he did his best to not let that show. He did a really good job showing both sides of the story- showing the pro-Russia supporters, and asking them questions. In his twitter you can even find things like- "Ok, looks like we have a name in ColonelGate, seems to be Horlivka local Igor Bezler who may be a retired Lt. Col. of some kind" referring to the guy who told the police that he is a Russian Officer. This shows clear dedication to spreading the truth and not propaganda. But I guess what the Donetsk People's Republic fears most is the truth...
He just recently did a report where he was asking the people holding up the convoys where they were from and if they would mind backing it up with papers. A lot of the people he asked were from the area, but some refused. Also there were people who were well geared and armed that openly admitted they were just in Crimea and had been a part of the action there. They were the ones trying to organize the groups of locals.
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@semantics no.
@mc if i was taking the position that there is no propaganda eminating from kremlin, his post would have warrented a proper response. brennan on a secret visit to kiev is a good indicator of cia's involvement. probably he's not the first one to visit you know...
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On April 23 2014 03:33 nunez wrote:
@semantics no.
@mc if i was taking the position that there is no propaganda eminating from kremlin, his post would have warrented a proper response. brennan on a secret visit to kiev is a good indicator of cia's involvement. probably he's not the first one to visit you know...
Maybe he was there to consult/advice the new government on the current crisis? They are on the verge of war with Russia. The USA knows quite a lot about the FSB, so does Ukraine. Sharing information and strategy to combat and deal w/ Russian covert operations in Ukraine seems like a valid premise for such a visit. Do you think that means that the CIA is responsible for snipers or that it's controlling the Ukrainian government? Maybe you do, but it's far from a convincing argument when other more plausible explanations exist.
If all you are saying is that the USA has a lot of influence in the Ukrainian government at the moment then I would agree. Ukraine knows it's in a desperate spot and the USA is a powerful ally and is the most willing to help. They also have similar interests: to combat Russian aggression and for Ukraine to be a successful European country.
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@ghan are you referring to your unsourced claim of 'four different reports ... special forces operatives'? or the us govt press release? you have to be borderline insane to take what you are fed from kiev or washington at face value, as was just now demonstrated with the nytimes article.
still this is only echoing what was mentioned in the finnish article you quoted. there are probably special forces operatives giving advice to the protestors. that is prolly what the cia is doing in kiev as well. where are the russian armed forces ppl are talking about?
tried to search, but that was what i could find... :<
@mc speculating in what his visit was for is besides the point, allthough interesting. what it does imply that the cia is involved with the maidan movement, and has been for quite a while, as their first order of business is probably not to ship their director for a secret visit. however they would have had to know that russian intelligence would easily catch on to this visit, which seems like a tremendously idiotic move, unless your motive is to escalate the situation, playing into putins sockpuppet narrative.
i think cia involvement is not up for discussion at this point, but you can argue about to what degree. i'd expect russia to be more involved as they have homefield advantage. but if the protests in eastern ukraine are controlled by kremlin because they probably have intelligence officers giving advice, then that logic also applies to the western ukraine protests.
deb presented a ridicolous dicthonomy, i responded in turn. who was behind the shootings is still an open question, but by now it is clear who they were beneficial for, not yanukovic.
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@Nunez, search harder. I'm not going to hold your hand in your personal vendetta.
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EPT
