EPTyea the CIA is a piece of shit but it's not like the russians are better.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 443
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea the CIA is a piece of shit but it's not like the russians are better. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
@oneofthem i agree to the second part of your post, but this is not reflected in media or tl for that matter. | ||
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DrCooper
Germany261 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
"allthough interesting. what it does imply that the cia is involved with the maidan movement, and has been for quite a while, as their first order of business is probably not to ship their director for a secret visit" Maybe I'm misreading you since our understanding of the situation is very different, but you seem to be suggesting (along with your other posts) that the CIA is somehow behind the EuroMaidan protests that overthrow the government. EuroMaidan was a natural reaction of hundreds of thousands of Ukranians to Yankovych turning down the EU offer at the last moment and switch to Russia. Many Western Ukranians have for years been hoping to distance themselves from Soviet times and the kleptocracy of their governments (Orange Revolution,etc.) and EuroMaidan was about UKRAINE and that's all there is to it. Did the CIA have some people in Ukraine at the time? Probably. Did they talk to some political figures associated with EuroMaidan, maybe. But to suggest that EuroMaidan was somehow "tainted" by US/EU/Western influence is utter non-sense and also quite insulting to the people who have died struggling to create a democratic (not kleptocratic) future for Ukraine. I looked back at some of your posts and you associating EuroMaidan with fascism. EuroMaidan was about Ukraine allying with the West, and about overthrowing a government that's only priority was pillaging the wealth of it's country. It was NOT about fascism. The fact that nationalists joined EuroMaidan did not make EuroMaidan a nationalist movement, or a fascist movement. That's part of why everybody is so annoyed with you -you are mimicing Russian propaganda by saying such things. Did they let some members of nationalist parties into the transition government? Yes, but these aren't neo-nazis. These people are way more moderate, and aren't advocating for things like deporting Jews/Russians. This isn't really a big deal. What are the nationalists in the current government doing that is so horrifically wrong? There are more nationalists in Hungary at the moment then in Ukraine by the way. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
i believe i have posted to the effect of: it's sad that the relatable part of the protests are about to get marginalized by the ultranationalists, from the very start. clearly there are elements in the movement that are worth fighting for, but these are not the same people in the vanguard of the violent overthrow. again with the rosepainting of ultranationalists and unapologetic fascists. what is the matter with you? this is an uncomfortable tendency in europe, it needs to be shut down and fought, not apologized for. a valid concern, there's no two ways about it. so what if the people you think you speak for (a rude awakening for them) are getting annoyed, russias ability to spin this narrative is reinforced by useful idiots like yourself. from gysi speech: 'grab your weapons. fight the russian pigs, the germans and the jew swines and other pests'... from wiki it seems yarosh is no longer / never was a part of govt, which would be great, but i think was been reported as deputy national security leader by guardian... any new devolpment on him? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On April 23 2014 04:12 nunez wrote: @oneofthem i agree to the second part of your post, but this is not reflected in media or tl for that matter. The NSA mess dominated our media for about 6 months. Also many countries openly opposed the Iraq war. Greenwald got the Pulitzer price, which is awarded by an American university, could you see that happen in Russia? | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 23 2014 05:05 nunez wrote: involved does not imply behind, it's not binary. and yes, that means tainted by foreign influence that does not represent the will of the people, but rather are pushing their own agenda. i believe i have posted to the effect of: it's sad that the relatable part of the protests are about to get marginalized by the ultranationalists, from the very start. clearly there are elements in the movement that are worth fighting for, but these are not the same people in the vanguard of the violent overthrow. again with the rosepainting of ultranationalists and unapologetic fascists. what is the matter with you? this is an uncomfortable tendency in europe, it needs to be shut down and fought, not apologized for. a valid concern, there's no two ways about it. so what if the people you think you speak for (a rude awakening for them) are getting annoyed, russias ability to spin this narrative is reinforced by useful idiots like yourself. from gysi speech: 'grab your weapons. fight the russian pigs, the germans and the jew swines and other pests'... from wiki it seems yarosh is no longer / never was a part of govt, which would be great, but i think was been reported as deputy national security leader by guardian... any new devolpment on him? I agree with you that ultranationalists are a problem in Europe (and in Ukraine) and am definitely against them. Should they be "shut down and fought", probably not because that will just stoke the fire. They represent a minority view in every country, and I don't view them as threatening to the future of Europe. They have been on the rise in recent years (probably caused by economic down-turn, EU disillusionment), but I don't think they are a real threat. Democracies should keep their eyes on them, and if a given country a politician advocates something too radical (murdering Jews, whatever), their are laws in that individual country to deal with it. The EU can also do some minor things (like it might do or already has(?) done with Hungary). As to the quote, I tried searching it and all I got was VERY recent blogs/threads (after the Gysi speech). Basically Gysi completely altered the quote: "'grab your weapons. fight the russian pigs, the germans and the jew swines and other pests". The actual quote was from 2004: "They slung their automatic guns around their necks and went into the woods, and fought against the moskali [derogatory slang for Russians], the Germans, the kikes, and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state. . We’ve got to give Ukraine, finally, to the Ukrainians. It is these young people and you old gray-beards, put together, that the moskali-kike mafia ruling Ukraine today is most afraid of." source : http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2014/2014_10-19/2014-12/pdf/33-34_4112.pdf From reading about the Svoboda party on wikipedia, it seems much more nationalistic and definitely not far-right/anti-semite. Please take into account that the party EVOLVED and has become much more main-stream and centrist, even though it's roots were more radical. Some Germans and all the Russian media (and you  ) are overdramatizing the significance of far right in Ukraine. They are not advocating any drastic laws, there will be elections in a few weeks (which Russia wants to disrupt imo), and these parties exist in every European country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party) Some points (all from wikipedia): ->Svoboda garnered 10% of the vote in 2012 ->quotes from wikipedia: "Olexiy Haran, a political science professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, says “There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Svoboda" and that the party is not fascist, but radical.[107] Ihor Kolomoyskyi, president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, stated in 2010 that the party has clearly shifted from the far-right to the center.[108]" You keep bringing up this point about neo-nazis/fascists controlling the government when arguing against our points but I haven't seen you back up the claim. In my opinion this is a huge exaggeration and is simply Russian (and some German) propaganda. I would ask you to provide a constructive argument (with evidence) to convince me that the Ukranian government/maidan is fascist in a *significant* way. edit: I really need to proofread before posting :p | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
no, but the equivalence was very specific. i wouldn't use the abhorrence that still is the nsa and obama's whistle-blower persecution as a positive american trait, the case shows that we are much closer to russia than we like to think. the us have better press freedom than russia, that goes without saying (not particularly good by western standards). ironic that snowden is seeking refuge with putin of all places, as a consequence, and now seems to be clowning it up for him on 'ask putin hour', as well as being used to justify more internet censorship. snowden has also several times expressed grief with how little of the files he leaked has reached the media. on a related side note: omidyar, who is sitting on both greenwald and snowden files through first look media and is one of the most frequent visitors at the white house was funelling money into ukraine along usaid. first look is meant to refer to the first look the white-house gets at their stories? @mc there are fascist elements in the maidan movement, amongst other militias that played a significant part in the violent overthrow, this has been reported over and over. a lot of these were asked to and joined the national guard, another portion refused to lay down their weapons. the svoboda party now plays a significant (you can split hairs over what constitutes significant, but there is no doubt they have real power and people in key positions) role in the interim govt, this has also been reported over and over. so your last way out is to rosepaint svoboda... lets see what the eu said in december 2012 that it seems like it totally forgot: Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada. It recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party. i think you would do those concerned a solid by not acting like you speak for them as you whitewash a racist, anti-semitic and xenophobic party. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
These two clearly served in BOTH the Crimean takeover and in E. Ukraine (you can tell by clicking through their photos). http://vk.com/garry_san Александр Ганичев http://vk.com/spets80 The others are (I can't personally tell if these are actually the pro-Russian militia in E. Ukraine): Евгений Пономарев http://vk.com/dingo31 Игорь Георгиевский http://vk.com/garry_san Сергей Анастасов http://vk.com/anastasovserg Тихон Каретный http://vk.com/id243374106 Евген Злой http://vk.com/id229685502 My source is: https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanpr * Disclaimer*: EuromaidanPR publishes a lot of biased propaganda crap, so take what they say with a grain of salt, but they also publish relevant information that might be interesting. edit: Some of these faces are recognizable in what I consider the most drastic of the E. Ukraine 'para-military' like attacks. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
*** Follow-up to previous news | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 23 2014 07:07 Ghanburighan wrote: https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/458725254689742848 *** Follow-up to previous news https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/458675565093216256 Unable to serve content as the content is blocked by the administrator of the domain. Hum. | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
On April 23 2014 07:31 m4ini wrote: Unable to serve content as the content is blocked by the administrator of the domain. Hum. Do you mean the tweets themselves or the link in the second? It all loads for me. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 23 2014 07:40 Saryph wrote: Do you mean the tweets themselves or the link in the second? It all loads for me. Second link. Weird.  | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
Google translate: (there was a youtube video too if you want me to link it.) In Slovyansk found the body of a man resembling the missing deputy of Gorlovki Tuesday, April 22, 2014, 17:12 photos, videos Print version Body of a man, like a stolen a few days ago the city council deputy Volodymyr Rybak Gorlovka found Slovyansk. About this site reports Gorlovka.ua referring to the chief Gorlovka State Kryschenko Andrew, who is currently on sick leave, but coordinates the work of law enforcement officers. "Now it's the orientation of the Slavic, where he was found dead men, very similar to the deputy city council Gorlovka Volodymyr Rybak, who was kidnapped in Gorlovka unknown masked men," - he said. ![[image loading]](http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.pravda.com.ua/img.pravda.com/images/doc/6/f/6f3e114-1.jpg.pagespeed.ce.h3CACOXBHf.jpg) "The body was found on the bank of the Seversky Donets. Who will carry out the investigation, as was previously registered criminal proceedings under Part 2 of Article 146 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine" unlawful imprisonment or kidnapping, "- said Kryschenko. "It was hard to identify. But if he had lain in the water a few days, then identify it very, very seriously, only DNA. But the body surfaced and identifiable," - said the head of the criminal police Gorlovka GU German attack, worked with Fisher . "Most likely, he was killed on April 19. People wanted to cover up the crime, they are prepared, this is not some robbers and drug addicts. What unarmed man they did it on their conscience," - added attack. ![[image loading]](http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.pravda.com.ua/img.pravda.com/images/doc/3/9/39df9a7-2.jpg.pagespeed.ce.cJwHfilBvh.jpg) On this fact held pre-trial investigation and measures to identify those involved in the commission of murder. Recall that in Central City PO Gorlovka addressed local with a statement that the 17 April 2014 around 18.00 unknown persons abducted Gorlovka city council deputy Volodymyr Rybak. On this fact openly criminal proceedings under Part 2 of Article 146 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine. According to the applicant, it came with a Fisher Ave Victory, when a car stopped near them, out of whom the unknown persons, deputy seated in the car and took him to an unknown destination. Until now, mobile phone representative government is not enabled. Found that before the abduction Volodymyr Rybak tried to go to the city council to remove the flag of the so-called "People's Republic of Donetsk", but at the entrance to the building on this occasion he had a conflict with the representatives of self-defense. Previously self-proclaimed separatist measures and Vyacheslav Ponomarev said Slovyansk that found the mutilated body Siverskoe Donets belonged to his fighters. Original untranslated: | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 23 2014 06:12 nunez wrote: @nyxisto no, but the equivalence was very specific. i wouldn't use the abhorrence that still is the nsa and obama's whistle-blower persecution as a positive american trait, the case shows that we are much closer to russia than we like to think. the us have better press freedom than russia, that goes without saying (not particularly good by western standards). ironic that snowden is seeking refuge with putin of all places, as a consequence, and now seems to be clowning it up for him on 'ask putin hour', as well as being used to justify more internet censorship. snowden has also several times expressed grief with how little of the files he leaked has reached the media. on a related side note: omidyar, who is sitting on both greenwald and snowden files through first look media and is one of the most frequent visitors at the white house was funelling money into ukraine along usaid. first look is meant to refer to the first look the white-house gets at their stories? @mc there are fascist elements in the maidan movement, amongst other militias that played a significant part in the violent overthrow, this has been reported over and over. a lot of these were asked to and joined the national guard, another portion refused to lay down their weapons. the svoboda party now plays a significant (you can split hairs over what constitutes significant, but there is no doubt they have real power and people in key positions) role in the interim govt, this has also been reported over and over. so your last way out is to rosepaint svoboda... lets see what the eu said in december 2012 that it seems like it totally forgot: i think you would do those concerned a solid by not acting like you speak for them as you whitewash a racist, anti-semitic and xenophobic party. According to wiki, there is disagreement amongst scholars whether to consider them anti-semitic. Yes, they are xenophobic and yes some of their leaders are anti-semites. I'm just against sayings like "maidan is fascist, Ukranian government neo-nazis", etc. because these are inaccurate and gross exaggerations. I'm not happy that they're their, but Ukrainian foreign and internal policy is not based on their opinions since they are a minority and in insignificant positions. Anything drastic that they want to vote for or pursue isn't going to work. So 4 out of 23 members of the current Government are from the Svoboda party. Let's look at them: Oleksandr Sych, Second Vice Prime Minister (so if prime minister and the vice prime minister die) Ihor Shvaika- Minister of Agrarian Policy and Food Andriy Mokhnyk -Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources of Ukraine Ihor Tenyukh - Minister of Defense (one of two acting ministers of defence) None of them are in significant positions except the minister of defence (and he is one of two ministers of defence). As to that, look how passively the Ukranian military has acted in order to avoid war. Finally, they are everywhere in Europe and in some countries more so than in Ukraine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nationalist_parties_in_the_European_Union.png Of course, there are different flavours of nationalist parties and Ukraine's isn't the most palatable. i think you will concede that they were involved in ukraine before brennan visited kiev, and it's obvious which horse they are backing. that would be the one with the nazi symbolism painted on its sides, doing sieg-heils in front of a bandera banner. brennan personally flew to kiev. safe bet that cia is cozying it up with far-right fascists, eh i mean, politically expedient groups, (their favorite past-time), have been for a while and thus are implicated at some level if the shootings indeed were perpetrated by militant far-right fascists. How about next time rather than using the term "nazis" or "Far right fascists" use "the 4 of 23 members of Ukrainian Government that are members of the Svoboda party which is associated by some with anti-semitism and some even claim fascism" | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
fatherland party 6, svoboda 4, non-partisan 12, and sitting at ministry of defense. does the fatherland party pass your magical line of having significant influence? they are the only party that maybe has significant influence? i'm sure you will excuse me for thinking the worst about cia's involvement, their track-record is not very nice when it comes to backing fascists... i will try to be as precise as i can with my indictements though. i never claimed that this is specific to ukraine, nor do i think that is a legitimizing factor, however they seem to have a particularly unpleasant history related to their nationalist movement. nice podcast with stephen f. cohen: john batchelor show | ||
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