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On December 08 2013 18:23 PaleMan wrote:Roman, are you serious? Do you know that 5% of earth population hold 95% of the whole wealths? Thats how capitalism works. Rich gets richer. Now answer your question yourself: What will the 95% of people do, eat raw bread and flush it with tap water? Is that how you generate domestic demand and build a powerful economy? Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:15 Roman666 wrote:
Why the papers haven't been signed 9 years ago? Because Ukraine's law system was a complete shit compared to EU standards. The amount of reforms they had to undertake was not doable in one day, one month and even one year. They still have a lot to do, but are at least ready to sign off the first agreement. Yushenko was president from 2005 to 2010. 2010 was 9 years ago? Ok. So 3 years ago (2010) Ukrainian law's system was a complete shit? And now in 2013 its awesome, right? Don't be stupid, it's still the same. And if EU and you want to assosiate some country, you will do it even if they have super shitty laws there. Srsly guys you forgot how to use your brains. Propaganda has you.
Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government?
EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy.
You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change.
The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. 
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On December 08 2013 18:23 PaleMan wrote:
Roman, are you serious?
Do you know that 5% of earth population hold 95% of the whole wealths?
Thats how capitalism works. Rich gets richer.
Now answer your question yourself:
What will the 95% of people do, eat raw bread and flush it with tap water? Is that how you generate domestic demand and build a powerful economy?
Oh you must have studied rhetoric because damn, you are actually justifying a striking inequality by comparing it to the world. Idk but to me it would be more normal that in europe countries, the situation would be more fair than in China or India. And I will answer your question because you seem to be lying to yourself.
No that's not your 5% of rich people that will boost your economy because these people will ever buy any of the manfactured goods from their own country and instead buy branded foreign goods. The others try to survive first and can't buy anything other than pure necesity.
I mean, you just have to look at all of this wasted potential, how can Russia or Ukraine be in this state when they have so much natural ressources? One of the main reasons is that it's totally controled by a few, and it's some kind of vicious circle because the young brains when they go abroad don't come back, so no replacement of the politicians and less modernization.
Also, ofc it would be better for Ukraine to join the EU, and when I say Ukraine, I talk about its people and not its reigning minority. Anyway, I can't help but feel that you're being the devil's advocate here, I can understand that you want to defend your country but sorry Russia is a dictature and you shouldn't defend a dictator trying to control other countries politics.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda.
Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws.
Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009?
Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession.
It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it.
But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks.
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On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009? Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession. It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it. But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks.
Yeah so that's why Ukraine should join CU, to gnaw on bones Russia throws them.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
Nope, it will be fair partnership because we at CU actually need Ukraine
EU is sinking with Spain, Portugalia, Greece and others - Ukraine will be just another leak in this ship body, they don't need it
But they MUST prevent the empowering of CU
That's why they ask to sign those papers but will never welcome Ukraine to the club
It will be like Turkey - they have assosiation papers inked like in 1996, still not in EU
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On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009?
The thing that changed the most in recent years is the willingness of Ukrainians to integrate into EU. It was as low as around a third of the population, now it's over 50%. 58% according to one research I just found on the internet, but it's probably too optimistic + Show Spoiler +http://news.finance.ua/ru/~/1/0/all/2013/11/18/313074
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 08 2013 19:27 Cheerio wrote:The thing that changed the most in recent years is the willingness of Ukrainians to integrate into EU. It was as low around a third of the population, now it's over 50%. 58% according to one research I just found on the internet, but it's probably too optimistic + Show Spoiler +http://news.finance.ua/ru/~/1/0/all/2013/11/18/313074 Integration into CU is only supported by 14%. Also integration into CU is even against our current constitution. If you think Ukraine will ever be part of it you are being delusional.
I heard ukrainians want to join EU badly since 1991. Still not there.
Well battling here with 16 y.o. TLers is sure fun, but pointless.
You will be very surprised, cause in near future Ukraine will be at CU
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On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009? Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession. It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it. But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks.
That propaganda of yours...
The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/ukraine/
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009? Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession. It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it. But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks. That propaganda of yours... The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/ukraine/
my point still stands, if Ukraine is so important to EU the hell Estonia is already a member of EU (since 2004) and Ukraine is still in preparation phase?
There was plenty of time since 1991 to deal with all kind of problems
Also u fcked yourself really bad.
First you write
On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:
EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy.
now you write
On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:
The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes.
So at first you acknowledge shitty laws etc, then you do a little research and actually laws were not that shitty at all?
Or they are still shitty but EU is not that "demanding on their partners"
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On December 08 2013 19:31 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 19:27 Cheerio wrote:The thing that changed the most in recent years is the willingness of Ukrainians to integrate into EU. It was as low around a third of the population, now it's over 50%. 58% according to one research I just found on the internet, but it's probably too optimistic + Show Spoiler +http://news.finance.ua/ru/~/1/0/all/2013/11/18/313074 Integration into CU is only supported by 14%. Also integration into CU is even against our current constitution. If you think Ukraine will ever be part of it you are being delusional. I heard ukrainians want to join EU badly since 1991. Still not there. Well battling here with 16 y.o. TLers is sure fun, but pointless. You will be very surprised, cause in near future Ukraine will be at CU
And how will this happen exactly? Russia will use all of it's blackmailing resources and abilities to force a change in Ukrainian Constitution and a signature from the Government on the treaty despite absolute lack of approval from the Ukrainian population?
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
Could you please give me an excerpt from ukrainian constituation which forbids Ukraine to join CU ald allows to join EU
thx in advance bro
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On December 08 2013 19:41 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009? Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession. It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it. But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks. That propaganda of yours... The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/ukraine/ my point still stands, if Ukraine is so important to EU the hell Estonia is already a member of EU (since 2004) and Ukraine is still in preparation phase? There was plenty of time since 1991 to deal with all kind of problems Also u fcked yourself really bad. First you write Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:
EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. now you write Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:
The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. So at first you acknowledge shitty laws etc, then you do a little research and actually laws were not that shitty at all? Or they are still shitty but EU is not that "demanding on their partners"
Again, you see what you want to see and the world is only black or white. Laws can be good in some areas and bad in others. The primary demands on Ukraine is Timoshenko-related and has to de with human rights. Also negotiations != results.
I dont see a dicotomy of the comments and not at all in the type of framing you use.
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On December 08 2013 19:31 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 19:27 Cheerio wrote:The thing that changed the most in recent years is the willingness of Ukrainians to integrate into EU. It was as low around a third of the population, now it's over 50%. 58% according to one research I just found on the internet, but it's probably too optimistic + Show Spoiler +http://news.finance.ua/ru/~/1/0/all/2013/11/18/313074 Integration into CU is only supported by 14%. Also integration into CU is even against our current constitution. If you think Ukraine will ever be part of it you are being delusional. I heard ukrainians want to join EU badly since 1991. Still not there. Well battling here with 16 y.o. TLers is sure fun, but pointless. You will be very surprised, cause in near future Ukraine will be at CU
Now that is what I call delusional. Hate to burst your bubble, but do you really think that Ukrainian oligarchs will allow this to happen? Do you really think they want to have their businesses devoured by their Russian counterparts?
And that 16 y.o. age argument. Please...
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 08 2013 20:25 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 19:41 PaleMan wrote:On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009? Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession. It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it. But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks. That propaganda of yours... The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/ukraine/ my point still stands, if Ukraine is so important to EU the hell Estonia is already a member of EU (since 2004) and Ukraine is still in preparation phase? There was plenty of time since 1991 to deal with all kind of problems Also u fcked yourself really bad. First you write On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:
EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. now you write On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:
The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. So at first you acknowledge shitty laws etc, then you do a little research and actually laws were not that shitty at all? Or they are still shitty but EU is not that "demanding on their partners" Again, you see what you want to see and the world is only black or white. Laws can be good in some areas and bad in others. The primary demands on Ukraine is Timoshenko-related and has to de with human rights. Also negotiations != results. I dont see a dicotomy of the comments and not at all in the type of framing you use.
you still dod not answer my question from page 3
why Estonia is already a member and Ukraine is not
at 1st you and Roman said - "shitty laws"
wrong answer
what prevented EU to work the shit out of ukrainian laws like they did with estonia's and make Ukraine member of EU earlier
try again! :p
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On December 08 2013 20:23 PaleMan wrote:
Could you please give me an excerpt from ukrainian constituation which forbids Ukraine to join CU ald allows to join EU
thx in advance bro
there was an official statement by Yanukovich which confirmed it. Look it up.
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On December 08 2013 20:33 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 20:25 radiatoren wrote:On December 08 2013 19:41 PaleMan wrote:On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:On December 08 2013 18:59 PaleMan wrote:On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:Can't change laws in 3 years? No gradual development in Yushenkos time in government? EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. You see only two colours and forget the silver linings. Ckassic discussion technique for people who has already made up their mind about an issue and will never change. The one-sidedness makes it... Propaganda. Now could you please tell me what exactly changed from 2010 to 2013 in ukrainian laws. Oh and do you understand that those associoation papers actually propose some laws changes. Again, what prevented EU to approach Ukraine with these papers in lets say 2009? Also tell me how Estonias, Latvias and Lithuania laws were better in 2003 when they signed the Treaty of Accession. It's you who is onesided. They tell you on TV that they are for freedom, democracy and wealth for all and you believe it. But actually its not. It's freedom, democracy amd wealth for strong countries and some bones to gnaw on for their sidekicks. That propaganda of yours... The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/ukraine/ my point still stands, if Ukraine is so important to EU the hell Estonia is already a member of EU (since 2004) and Ukraine is still in preparation phase? There was plenty of time since 1991 to deal with all kind of problems Also u fcked yourself really bad. First you write On December 08 2013 18:47 radiatoren wrote:
EU is very demanding on their partners, whether in trade or association. Accepting "shitty laws" is pretty much an anti-thesis to their strategy. now you write On December 08 2013 19:34 radiatoren wrote:
The trade negotiations launched in 2008, which somewhat makes 2009 to 2013 irrelevant in terms of changes. So at first you acknowledge shitty laws etc, then you do a little research and actually laws were not that shitty at all? Or they are still shitty but EU is not that "demanding on their partners" Again, you see what you want to see and the world is only black or white. Laws can be good in some areas and bad in others. The primary demands on Ukraine is Timoshenko-related and has to de with human rights. Also negotiations != results. I dont see a dicotomy of the comments and not at all in the type of framing you use. you still dod not answer my question from page 3 why Estonia is already a member and Ukraine is not at 1st you and Roman said - "shitty laws" wrong answerwhat prevented EU to work the shit out of ukrainian laws like they did with estonia's and make Ukraine member of EU earlier try again! :p
This is pointless. You conflate me with someone else and use that as an argumet?
I haven't even tried to answer the Estonia-question, which makes your conclusion a complete non-sequitor.
You have found religion. I am happy for you, but it doesn't render itself well to discussions.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
it looks like you have found your religion,
And don't even want to think.
Thats why u can't answer simple questions, cause there is some serious leak in your religion.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 08 2013 20:38 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 20:23 PaleMan wrote:
Could you please give me an excerpt from ukrainian constituation which forbids Ukraine to join CU ald allows to join EU
thx in advance bro there was an official statement by Yanukovich which confirmed it. Look it up.
if there is no link, there was no statement
its you who trying to prove me that there is some law against CU in your constitution, so you look it up and give it to me
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I don't even understand why the Estonia quesstion is relevant. The answer is obviously that Estonia was more compatible with the EU. So what?
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Well. Someone in the this thread lools like an overfead troll. Fat so much that is lazy to google simple things.
Yanuko**ch was talking about the eurointegration since the last year. Early this September he asked Verkhovna Rada to espoused a set of laws that will allow to sign this agreement with the EU.
Euromaidan is not anti-Russia, as russian media makes it to look like. It's about "our" government.
An if we've been talking about Russia - LET US GO!
It's not friendly what Russia has been doing to the custom laws during last several month, fobidding lots of ukrainian products. Russia has been giving a lot of opportunities to be hated by ukrainians, but we are still not doing this.
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EPT
