I hope there will be no state of emergency. State of emergency means a lot of blood and economy collapse.
Army is completely neutral now, but they must obey the command's orders. Because it is army. Head of Ministry of Defence said that army will not support any. But the President is the commander-in-chief of the army and navy so he can give an order.
Also I am Lt. officer in reserve and in case of mobilisation ill be forced to participate in this shit too.
I would not be surprised if the army is sent to put down the protests and they refuse to act. This has happened quite a few times in history, especially in Eastern Europe.
On January 27 2014 20:27 Shiragaku wrote: I would not be surprised if the army is sent to put down the protests and they refuse to act. This has happened quite a few times in history, especially in Eastern Europe.
By the way there is an "Internal Troops of the Ministry for Internal Affairs" It is _army_, not police, but they obey _Ministry for Internal Affairs_ (police), not Ministry of Defence (army).
They are equipped better then police. They have armoured vehicles, some aviation and some ships. Not that much and heavy as Army, Navy and Air Force has, but they have it.
So army is already used a bit. But without the state of emergency they can't do anything they want to. Now it is only 18-year-old soldiers in front of police as a meat shield.
Russian President Vladimir Putin is due to fly to Brussels tomorrow for talks with EU leaders, where the unrest in Ukraine will almost certainly be discussed. Russia – which regards Ukraine as being firmly within its sphere of influence - has previously warned the EU to stop interfering in Kiev’s affairs.
Russia and the EU have "a number of differences which need to be discussed and clarified" at the summit, European Council leader Herman Van Rompuy said in a statement.
Government insiders in Kiev and Moscow say Mr Yanukovych is under considerable pressure from Mr Putin to crush the demonstrations, which it sees as a threat to its hold over former Soviet states.
if UN/EU will try and give military help to Ukraine (opposition), russians will invade from the east for sure. worst case for Putin, he will have to "trade" Syria for Ukraine.
Not sure about the rest of citys, but i was trying to catch at least some attempts of clashes between protesters/police/hooligans and so on. It was a saturday night when something had to happen, but some groups of ppl with clubs walked in the center of the city. Well, maybe i missed something, but everything was looks like strom in a teacup :D
Mass protests also not that correct, we do have protest from both sides, but they're not huge and not even big.
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
This is bullshit. I was doing plenty of market research about years 2004-2010. And up to the financial crisis of 2008 the entire economy was steadily growing. The crisis was the result of the systematic problems of the Ukrainian economy, which can't be blamed on the Orange forces alone (actually Yanukovich was a Prime Minister for one year from 2004-2008, and due to Constitutional reform in 2004 he had more power than the President. Constitutional reform was reverted when Yanukovich became the President). And Ukraine wasn't the only one to suffer, the whole world had been hit. The only thing Yanukovich did in 4 years was get more and more loans to postpone the collapse, which is only making things worse.
On January 26 2014 08:38 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: I rly wonder, so much ppl stopped to do their jobs and started to strike, some of strikes are paid by opposition and some by the current gouvernment. That's hillarious! Spoiling things won't solve anything! I just wait till special forces will recieve the necessary command to push all the agressive strikers from the streets. Molotova cocktails was just the beginning...
I used to be on the strikers side from the very beginning, but now it looks horrible and distabilizing. I don't want to be in a civil war in my country, better let it be communistic, socialistic, whatever, I just want to live in peace, I want my parents and my kids to live in safety.
It is like the Game of Thrones. The powerful struggle, to maintain or gain more power, and the common-folk pay the iron price.
Not sure about hot correct this relation, cause in GOT there are several of powerful forces and here in Ukraine we got cuurent gov. that shits in pants to force out the strikers and separated opposition which don't know exactly what to do, basicly they even don't know what they want. It looks like half of them striking for money, and the other half striking to strike.
Would be cool if both sides gonna face each other and both will be completely annihilated. I am sure that deserve each other but still there is almost no difference between them, no matter who will be the president (Yanukovich or Yatsenyuk) the population will be in shit, demography is also in shit, don't even wanna mention the economy :/
Am sad
What is sad is your entire post. Not a word about civil liberties being taken away, or tortures, selective justice, insane corruption, people being killed for their political views. Clearly all people who wish for power are equally evil and should just kill each other... yeah, right.
Yeah, and it also shows why Ukraine is so fucked up now. Too many people are used to this slave mentality. Or maybe they are just not bright enough to think ahead and understand what such rulers and laws will bring us.
@cSc.Dav1oN Do you really think that it's fine to live in a country where police is torturing people on a regular basis, and this started long before the current riot. It was a common practice in police to extract confessions out of innocent people since even before we got our independence, nothing has changed during last 22 years. Where riot police is shooting unarmed people, kidnapping and torturing them, sometimes even to death. Where police is attacking reporters and seizing wounded people right in medical centers/hospitals to forcefully interrogate them. Is it fine to live in a country where you hardly can do anything of significance without giving a bribe to someone. In a country where you can lose your business in an instant because someone "bigger" than you decided that he wants estate, territory or even the business itself your are currently owning. Where courts will always rule to the benefit of someone who has more money/power or influential connections.
What I listed above in nothing new to someone who has lived here for long enough. But now, with new "dictatorship" laws that were passed on 16th january, they can do even more, much more, and it was the last drop. Even ukrainians, people used to endure all kinds of repressions, don't want to tolerate it anymore. At least a large part of them, I know that not everyone is supporting the riot.
Anyhow, my point is: giving up now and allowing our rulers to do as they please is not any better that directly risking our lives during the revolution. Even if you manage to buy a temporary safety by allowing them to stomp the riot now, there's no guaranty that you or your children won't suffer even more in the future. Especially because if they win now, they will be even more sure that they can do whatever they want with whoever they want, disregarding any laws and conventions.
Okay, first of all, I never felt police torturing, never had a problems with a law, never struggled, my parents and friends also never had this kind of problems, is there something we do wrong? About corruption, it's a well-known fact, it is absolutely everywhere, and to eliminate it u must change every single politician in every single structure, switching president and parliament to someone from opoosition won't make a big difference. And there will be no instant miracle.
So show me, who's this person that gonna lead our country to a brighter world?
Please, don't tell me about civil libirties, since strikers threw so many cocktails on police forces and had no bullets in their bodies for exchange. U do realy think that european road will clear the corruption and all the problem in our country? Take a look at Sweden, Finland. Are they in EU? Do they live good? Did they made any attempts to move in EU? Switched political vector from Europe to Russia was a perfect reason to start the revolution. But non of this ways are leading us to a heaven.
You are pathetic. There is a revolution going on in your country and you didn't even bother to check one of the biggest facts before claiming it.
I hope i'm wrong and everything would be fine in near future. Too sad that such beautiful center of Kiev looks terrible now, and a bit postapocalyptyc.
There are people dying and the thing you are most sad about is that the "beautiful center of Kiev looks terrible now"?
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
This is bullshit. I was doing plenty of market research about years 2004-2010. And up to the financial crisis of 2008 the entire economy was steadily growing. The crisis was the result of the systematic problems of the Ukrainian economy, which can't be blamed on the Orange forces alone (actually Yanukovich was a Prime Minister for one year from 2004-2008, and due to Constitutional reform in 2004 he had more power than the President. Constitutional reform was reverted when Yanukovich became the President). And Ukraine wasn't the only one to suffer, the whole world had been hit. The only thing Yanukovich did in 4 years was get more and more loans to postpone the collapse, which is only making things worse.
On January 27 2014 11:14 packrat386 wrote: I was reading a few interviews with regular riot police just holding the line, and one of them made what I thought to be a pretty good point. If they were out to crush the rioters, they would have done it by now. Its not like the Ukranian police force lacks the capability.
They can't. Read Euromaidan wiki article, the part "11 December 2013 police clash with protesters".
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
This is bullshit. I was doing plenty of market research about years 2004-2010. And up to the financial crisis of 2008 the entire economy was steadily growing. The crisis was the result of the systematic problems of the Ukrainian economy, which can't be blamed on the Orange forces alone (actually Yanukovich was a Prime Minister for one year from 2004-2008, and due to Constitutional reform in 2004 he had more power than the President. Constitutional reform was reverted when Yanukovich became the President). And Ukraine wasn't the only one to suffer, the whole world had been hit. The only thing Yanukovich did in 4 years was get more and more loans to postpone the collapse, which is only making things worse.
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
This is bullshit. I was doing plenty of market research about years 2004-2010. And up to the financial crisis of 2008 the entire economy was steadily growing. The crisis was the result of the systematic problems of the Ukrainian economy, which can't be blamed on the Orange forces alone (actually Yanukovich was a Prime Minister for one year from 2004-2008, and due to Constitutional reform in 2004 he had more power than the President. Constitutional reform was reverted when Yanukovich became the President). And Ukraine wasn't the only one to suffer, the whole world had been hit. The only thing Yanukovich did in 4 years was get more and more loans to postpone the collapse, which is only making things worse.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
On January 27 2014 12:11 Salazarz wrote: Without getting too deep into the whole 'evil fascist police vs crazy football hooligans' debate, it's probably worth noting that the proposed trade agreements with the EU which were denied by current Ukrainian government would make the already terrible economic situation in Ukraine even worse. On top of that, Russia provided favourable gas prices and a large monetary loan which Ukraine sorely needed pretty much with the condition that these trade agreements would not be signed. Free trade with Europe would do very little good for present day Ukraine, and has the potential to do a whole lot of harm.
Russia defaulted in 1998, it's not the end of the world. This is not about EU or Russia anymore. It's about not having a dictatorship with the bandit in power.
On January 26 2014 08:38 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: I rly wonder, so much ppl stopped to do their jobs and started to strike, some of strikes are paid by opposition and some by the current gouvernment. That's hillarious! Spoiling things won't solve anything! I just wait till special forces will recieve the necessary command to push all the agressive strikers from the streets. Molotova cocktails was just the beginning...
I used to be on the strikers side from the very beginning, but now it looks horrible and distabilizing. I don't want to be in a civil war in my country, better let it be communistic, socialistic, whatever, I just want to live in peace, I want my parents and my kids to live in safety.
It is like the Game of Thrones. The powerful struggle, to maintain or gain more power, and the common-folk pay the iron price.
Not sure about hot correct this relation, cause in GOT there are several of powerful forces and here in Ukraine we got cuurent gov. that shits in pants to force out the strikers and separated opposition which don't know exactly what to do, basicly they even don't know what they want. It looks like half of them striking for money, and the other half striking to strike.
Would be cool if both sides gonna face each other and both will be completely annihilated. I am sure that deserve each other but still there is almost no difference between them, no matter who will be the president (Yanukovich or Yatsenyuk) the population will be in shit, demography is also in shit, don't even wanna mention the economy :/
Am sad
What is sad is your entire post. Not a word about civil liberties being taken away, or tortures, selective justice, insane corruption, people being killed for their political views. Clearly all people who wish for power are equally evil and should just kill each other... yeah, right.
Yeah, and it also shows why Ukraine is so fucked up now. Too many people are used to this slave mentality. Or maybe they are just not bright enough to think ahead and understand what such rulers and laws will bring us.
@cSc.Dav1oN Do you really think that it's fine to live in a country where police is torturing people on a regular basis, and this started long before the current riot. It was a common practice in police to extract confessions out of innocent people since even before we got our independence, nothing has changed during last 22 years. Where riot police is shooting unarmed people, kidnapping and torturing them, sometimes even to death. Where police is attacking reporters and seizing wounded people right in medical centers/hospitals to forcefully interrogate them. Is it fine to live in a country where you hardly can do anything of significance without giving a bribe to someone. In a country where you can lose your business in an instant because someone "bigger" than you decided that he wants estate, territory or even the business itself your are currently owning. Where courts will always rule to the benefit of someone who has more money/power or influential connections.
What I listed above in nothing new to someone who has lived here for long enough. But now, with new "dictatorship" laws that were passed on 16th january, they can do even more, much more, and it was the last drop. Even ukrainians, people used to endure all kinds of repressions, don't want to tolerate it anymore. At least a large part of them, I know that not everyone is supporting the riot.
Anyhow, my point is: giving up now and allowing our rulers to do as they please is not any better that directly risking our lives during the revolution. Even if you manage to buy a temporary safety by allowing them to stomp the riot now, there's no guaranty that you or your children won't suffer even more in the future. Especially because if they win now, they will be even more sure that they can do whatever they want with whoever they want, disregarding any laws and conventions.
Okay, first of all, I never felt police torturing, never had a problems with a law, never struggled, my parents and friends also never had this kind of problems, is there something we do wrong? About corruption, it's a well-known fact, it is absolutely everywhere, and to eliminate it u must change every single politician in every single structure, switching president and parliament to someone from opoosition won't make a big difference. And there will be no instant miracle.
So show me, who's this person that gonna lead our country to a brighter world?
Please, don't tell me about civil libirties, since strikers threw so many cocktails on police forces and had no bullets in their bodies for exchange. U do realy think that european road will clear the corruption and all the problem in our country? Take a look at Sweden, Finland. Are they in EU? Do they live good? Did they made any attempts to move in EU? Switched political vector from Europe to Russia was a perfect reason to start the revolution. But non of this ways are leading us to a heaven.
You are pathetic. There is a revolution going on in your country and you didn't even bother to check one of the biggest facts before claiming it.
I hope i'm wrong and everything would be fine in near future. Too sad that such beautiful center of Kiev looks terrible now, and a bit postapocalyptyc.
There are people dying and the thing you are most sad about is that the "beautiful center of Kiev looks terrible now"?
Why don't u go and dietrying with them? Or is it some kind of modern fairy-tales? I'm starting to think, that we are living in a different country with u. U do have dictatorship which i never felt, people are dying everywhere due to clashes...And ye, seems like u're separating ur world on white and black, only.
Telling that police can't stand against opposition is another fairy tale. The only thing they are waiting is an order. Special forces in equipment versus shouting people with clubs? Srsly? Water cannons with tear gas, and all the protestants runnin' home, no bullets needed!
I live un EU, and i wonder all those pro EU ukrainians here know anything about whats "best" and what's not. People nowadays seems to be brainwashed. What most think, is EU will offer some kind of better economic place for Ukraine in the future, while in fact if you check data from latest eu integrants, you can clearly see that that didn't happen, what did happen is massive migration. I'm furious to see all those black and red flags, Klichko brothers promoting gay culture in magazines and this "euromaidan" thing. Yanukovich is clearly incompetent, and corruption is high , but how exactly is this thing gonna change it ? Im truly ashamed , a bunch of jobless , homeless guys in masks rioting for the good of people, this isn't 18 century , and "boxing" fight metods ain't gonna change a thing. Whats more, they bring even more hatred towards Russia, following the western image if this country, like its evil and all red in blood with evil comunist trying to blow up the world, pathetic. Good things Ukraine doesn't have Oil , otherwise plenty of other reason to make this "revolution" happen .
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mdZuCfh.jpg)
