On January 27 2014 17:46 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right)
Care to show us some photos or videos? There are thousands of them in the internet, you might get lucky. The only photo I have seen of him was when he was carrying an injured female journalist to the medics (1+1 journalist, hit by a rubber bullet).
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
This is bullshit. I was doing plenty of market research about years 2004-2010. And up to the financial crisis of 2008 the entire economy was steadily growing. The crisis was the result of the systematic problems of the Ukrainian economy, which can't be blamed on the Orange forces alone (actually Yanukovich was a Prime Minister for one year from 2004-2008, and due to Constitutional reform in 2004 he had more power than the President. Constitutional reform was reverted when Yanukovich became the President). And Ukraine wasn't the only one to suffer, the whole world had been hit. The only thing Yanukovich did in 4 years was get more and more loans to postpone the collapse, which is only making things worse.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
On January 27 2014 17:46 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right)
Care to show us some photos or videos? There are thousands of them in the internet, you might get lucky. The only photo I have seen of him was when he was carrying an injured female journalist to the medics (1+1 journalist, hit by a rubber bullet).
The only thing u see, or the only thing u WANT to see? Do u realise that u're in the middle of INFORMATION WAR? And do u realise that u are on the brink of civil war?
On January 27 2014 23:25 Greem wrote: I live un EU, and i wonder all those pro EU ukrainians here know anything about whats "best" and what's not. People nowadays seems to be brainwashed. What most think, is EU will offer some kind of better economic place for Ukraine in the future, while in fact if you check data from latest eu integrants, you can clearly see that that didn't happen, what did happen is massive migration. I'm furious to see all those black and red flags, Klichko brothers promoting gay culture in magazines and this "euromaidan" thing. Yanukovich is clearly incompetent, and corruption is high , but how exactly is this thing gonna change it ? Im truly ashamed , a bunch of jobless , homeless guys in masks rioting for the good of people, this isn't 18 century , and "boxing" fight metods ain't gonna change a thing. Whats more, they bring even more hatred towards Russia, following the western image if this country, like its evil and all red in blood with evil comunist trying to blow up the world, pathetic. Good things Ukraine doesn't have Oil , otherwise plenty of other reason to make this "revolution" happen .
Words! Nothing more to add!
Too bad that ur thoughts cannot be touched by riots :/
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
On January 27 2014 17:46 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right)
Care to show us some photos or videos? There are thousands of them in the internet, you might get lucky. The only photo I have seen of him was when he was carrying an injured female journalist to the medics (1+1 journalist, hit by a rubber bullet).
The only thing u see, or the only thing u WANT to see? Do u realise that u're in the middle of INFORMATION WAR? And do u realise that u are on the brink of civil war?
civil war against whom? Will you shoot and beat people to keep Yanukovich in power?
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
On January 27 2014 17:46 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right)
Care to show us some photos or videos? There are thousands of them in the internet, you might get lucky. The only photo I have seen of him was when he was carrying an injured female journalist to the medics (1+1 journalist, hit by a rubber bullet).
The only thing u see, or the only thing u WANT to see? Do u realise that u're in the middle of INFORMATION WAR? And do u realise that u are on the brink of civil war?
civil war against whom? Will you shoot and beat people to keep Yanukovich in power?
I won't shoot in people that trying to keep Yanukovich, but i'm not going to shoot at police officers! If u won't follow legetimate way to change government, u will be in danger. Sooner or later, as a result, all the riots will be smashed.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
Okay, so in practice, police shoud respect the right, but people don't have to respect the laws? Double standarts. Do u know why I'm not striking? I still can't find a reason, I can't find where my libirties were infranged. There is a couple of reason-and-consequence things happened during last two month, and all those things cannot be solved by storming the governmental building or firing cocktails at police.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
Okay, so in practice, police shoud respect the right, but people don't have to respect the laws? Double standarts. Do u know why I'm not striking? I still can't find a reason, I can't find where my libirties were infranged. There is a couple of reason-and-consequence things happened during last two month, and all those things cannot be solved by storming the governmental building or firing cocktails at police.
So is your right to protest intact or did you never have it in the first place?
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
Okay, so in practice, police shoud respect the right, but people don't have to respect the laws? Double standarts. Do u know why I'm not striking? I still can't find a reason, I can't find where my libirties were infranged. There is a couple of reason-and-consequence things happened during last two month, and all those things cannot be solved by storming the governmental building or firing cocktails at police.
So is your right to protest intact or did you never have it in the first place?
Never had it in the first place. Although, if it realy needed, i will go and strike, without weapons, without cocktails and without capturing the buildings. We're not in the world-end situation when any means to an end. Excuse me for tautology.
News agencies report that today at the closed meeting of the Cabinet of Ministers the following decisions were made: 1) increase the number of Berkut forces fourfold and broaden their authorities. 2) legalize titushky units 3) restrict the movement on around 30 streets in Kyiv. 4) allot funds from the budget to buy equipment for the internal troops.
On January 27 2014 17:46 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right)
Care to show us some photos or videos? There are thousands of them in the internet, you might get lucky. The only photo I have seen of him was when he was carrying an injured female journalist to the medics (1+1 journalist, hit by a rubber bullet).
The only thing u see, or the only thing u WANT to see? Do u realise that u're in the middle of INFORMATION WAR? And do u realise that u are on the brink of civil war?
civil war against whom? Will you shoot and beat people to keep Yanukovich in power?
I won't shoot in people that trying to keep Yanukovich, but i'm not going to shoot at police officers! If u won't follow legetimate way to change government, u will be in danger. Sooner or later, as a result, all the riots will be smashed.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
Okay, so in practice, police shoud respect the right, but people don't have to respect the laws? Double standarts. Do u know why I'm not striking? I still can't find a reason, I can't find where my libirties were infranged. There is a couple of reason-and-consequence things happened during last two month, and all those things cannot be solved by storming the governmental building or firing cocktails at police.
Of course people should respect the law, and attacking police officers with molotov coctails is condemnable at least. But what should police do is to apprehend the criminals without resorting to violence. You have the guy stripped to his bare ass just for show off what will happen if others will follow. That looks more like a savagery, certainly not a lesson to anyone. And police has every right do defend itself when attacked, however by stripping people to bare ass they provoke even more attacks on themselves. That simply makes things personal, just as much as protesters trampling the police officers to the ground and throwing molotovs at them.
It is good though that you admit that YOU do not feel YOUR liberties being infringed. But this is just YOU, and everyone is entitled to his opinion. As are YOU so are the protesters, who got outlawed when protesting mostly peacefully. I say mostly, because there always be some individuals who can't hold their shit together on both sides.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
Okay, so in practice, police shoud respect the right, but people don't have to respect the laws? Double standarts. Do u know why I'm not striking? I still can't find a reason, I can't find where my libirties were infranged. There is a couple of reason-and-consequence things happened during last two month, and all those things cannot be solved by storming the governmental building or firing cocktails at police.
Of course people should respect the law, and attacking police officers with molotov coctails is condemnable at least. But what should police do is to apprehend the criminals without resorting to violence. You have the guy stripped to his bare ass just for show off what will happen if others will follow. That looks more like a savagery, certainly not a lesson to anyone. And police has every right do defend itself when attacked, however by stripping people to bare ass they provoke even more attacks on themselves. That simply makes things personal, just as much as protesters trampling the police officers to the ground and throwing molotovs at them.
It is good though that you admit that YOU do not feel YOUR liberties being infringed. But this is just YOU, and everyone is entitled to his opinion. As are YOU so are the protesters, who got outlawed when protesting mostly peacefully. I say mostly, because there always be some individuals who can't hold their shit together on both sides.
Allright, I get ur point. But using ur logic, police had to shoot those guy, rather than stripping him. Cause they do have a right to protect themselves, and as everywhere, attacking police officer automaticly makes u a criminal. He caused serious danger that might even be followed by death, this is serious reason to shoot at cocktail-thrower. But what do we see? Gun bullets and a single guy being stripped. Oh what a liberty pinching...Police had and oppotunity, leagal opportunity to shoot them, but saved a lot of those idiot's asses. I don't get, how people are missing that point.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
When they stormed government building, no one was afraid of jail. Besides, how do u think it is possible to capture all those riots? What police should do in practice? Not in theory as how u like to describe
In practice the police should still respect the rights of the people and by doing so the people will stop rioting. These are not two unrelated issues, the rioting is happening because the civil liberties of the people are being trampled on. All they're doing at the moment is justifying rioting and it's not going to stop.
Okay, so in practice, police shoud respect the right, but people don't have to respect the laws? Double standarts. Do u know why I'm not striking? I still can't find a reason, I can't find where my libirties were infranged. There is a couple of reason-and-consequence things happened during last two month, and all those things cannot be solved by storming the governmental building or firing cocktails at police.
So is your right to protest intact or did you never have it in the first place?
Have you ever been to a protest with football hooligans? I have. In 2008 I took a free bus to Belgrade to take part in peaceful protests. Now anyone can take advantage of free buses so half the bus was filled up with local football hooligans. With all their talk of patriotism on the way to Belgrade you would think they would come with us to the protest once we go there? Yeah, they joined up with a friendly group from Belgrade and spent the whole day looting and vandalizing throughout the city. When we were supposed to go home they slashed the tires on the bus because the driver wouldn't wait for one of their friends who had cut his hand robbing a store... yeah
If anyone one thinks these hooligans have joined the protesting for any other reason beside a license to freely attack police and be all around animals, you are delusional. The peaceful protesters have only the animals within their ranks to blame for the new laws.
edit: Most Ukrainian's (outside of TL), that mentioned the protesters use the word Бандеровцы
On January 27 2014 17:46 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right)
Care to show us some photos or videos? There are thousands of them in the internet, you might get lucky. The only photo I have seen of him was when he was carrying an injured female journalist to the medics (1+1 journalist, hit by a rubber bullet).
The only thing u see, or the only thing u WANT to see? Do u realise that u're in the middle of INFORMATION WAR? And do u realise that u are on the brink of civil war?
civil war against whom? Will you shoot and beat people to keep Yanukovich in power?
I won't shoot in people that trying to keep Yanukovich, but i'm not going to shoot at police officers! If u won't follow legetimate way to change government, u will be in danger. Sooner or later, as a result, all the riots will be smashed.
That's the problem with such political institutions though, there are no legitimate ways to change the government. It's clear that the ukraine president is not a democratically elected president that can be democratically removed, or even have any democratic checks on his power. He is a dictator, there is no legitimate way of going against him.
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice.
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want,
And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier.
And yet the post I was referring to, your post, included this
U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them
This is not how policing works. You honestly seem to not understand that.
How does invading a government building and doing this not warrant being arrested?
Yet another ex Soviet guy completely missing the point.
I'm not saying don't arrest criminals. I'm saying the police should not be dispensing in justice, punishment, deterrence, intimidation of the public or anything else. They have no mandate for it, only the people have the right to judge the people which they do in trials. The police just apprehend. "captured and stripped just to show the other strikers what would happen to them" is not policing, it's being an armed gang.
Serbia is not "ex Soviet", it wasn't even on the same bloc.
Your dislike for the police handling punishment and acting on it's own is understandable but it has been known to happen not just in Ukraine, but also in the EU and developed Asia as well. It's nothing new.
EPT
