EPTthe other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 26
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DeepElemBlues
United States5080 Posts
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't. You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia. Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3632 Posts
"pox on both your houses" is often promoted as some sort of demonstration of sophistication and nuance when many times its just a moral cop-out | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
On January 25 2014 21:45 Cheerio wrote: Numerous groups of hardcore football fans (ultras) pledged their alliance to Euromaidan and promised to protect Euromaidan activists in cities of Central and Eastern Ukraine, including Donetsk, Kharkiv, Dnipropetrivsk, Poltava, Zaporizhya. Football hooligans | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
Also, if pro-government/police forces are kidnapping civilians off the streets, beating them, stripping them naked, slashing them with knives, and sometimes killing them, it sounds like they need protection. | ||
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McRatyn
Poland901 Posts
Disclaimer: As with every big piece of writing condensed to a couple of sentences there are bound to be some shorthands, so I apologize. No time to translate it for now. A lengthy article in Polish, the author states that she lives in Ukraine and basically shows a pretty negative attitude towads protest. She belives they endanger the everyday lives of citizens and does not belive they will change anything. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Also, White-Ra's from Odessa which is pretty close by, when I'm watching a video where he's speaking Eastern European jibber jabber it's always Russian rather than Ukrainian. Based on that it seems to me like the people there would have been pro-Russia up until the situation escalated, and now I guess it's just whichever side offers more stability (at this point, still the government?) Come to think of it, I could see a lot of them agreeing with Dav1on's arguments. Dav1on, what part of Ukraine are you from? | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
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5ukkub
Poland507 Posts
Dav1on's arguments fit that description perfectly. Choosing to live your life in a hole like scared mouse, being pushed over by arrogant officials, not knowing what might happen is pathetic lifestyle that protesters in Ukraine want to change. It seems US and Western EU countries had freedom, democracy and basic human rights for too long and some people are forgetting how valuable those things actually are. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On January 27 2014 11:30 5ukkub wrote: It seems US and Western EU countries had freedom, democracy and basic human rights for too long and some people are forgetting how valuable those things actually are. I get that feeling too, at least on the internet. When has it become cool to be all authoritarian like "hey who these uncivilized brutes rioting in the Ukraine? If they don't like the government why don't they elect someone else herp derp?" Major news site commentary sections are especially painful to read. I mean come on, their president is a two times convicted criminal, half of the politicians are probably corrupt, a significant part of the population is not well educated and heavy nationalized and radicalized, and the elections are probably rigged. The laws put in place by the current government have basically stripped all rights away from everyone but the president and people somewhere on their couch in western Europe are basically like "Hey, if somethings wrong why don't you go call the government support hotline?" | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Anyways, the path to radical change for the democratic is long and bloody. Other than the US, the revolutions of history have led to prolonged conflict and instability. France being the most prominent with the Reign of Terror and ending with Napoleon (although the constitutional monarchy of 1815 restored stability), Russia swapping one authoritarian government for another after World War I, Iran coming under strict Islamic law, Libya still being a shitstorm, Egypt swinging side to side... it's not bad for someone to choose the lesser evil for the present, and hope for more moderate change in the future. This all goes into theory, but in the 1980's Soviet Union, Yuri Andropov was a good example of the moderate reformer. He started to clean up Brezhnev's corruption stateside, and enforce the law to not only the public but to the rulers. He even had a more open economic policy, sharing the country's problems with both economists and the public. There's also the whole Samantha Smith story, although some say that's actually the work of Gorbachev. Then he died two years after he took power, a year later Gorbachev comes in and institutes much more liberal reforms that end up tearing the Soviet Union apart. It's hard to say for fact because Andropov only lasted two years, but there's indication that he would have made more gradual reforms that improved the USSR had he lived for some more time, leaving the power to the next generation (incl. Gorbachev) once more of the old party had died off. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
edit: also, if the country as a whole truly wanted this government gone, we'd probably be seeing a different picture right now. The protests that are going on right now are quite large, but are not representative of (nor supported by) the majority of Ukraine's population. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On January 27 2014 12:11 Salazarz wrote:edit: also, if the country as a whole truly wanted this government gone, we'd probably be seeing a different picture right now. The protests that are going on right now are quite large, but are not representative of (nor supported by) the majority of Ukraine's population. You sound like ex-communists in Bulgaria that try to deny protests. I'm sorry but how do you expect the whole nation to stand up so you can justify a protest? It's not possible for any country unless there is some absolutely mad financial crisis or torture against people. Only a certain number of people protest at a time. Don't forget that a lot of people feel apathy from politics no matter who ruling people are.  | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On January 27 2014 09:34 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Is there anything going on in the south? It doesn't seem like there's a lot of pro-EU people there. In the week I've spent at my cousin's house in Kherson I didn't hear a word of Ukrainian spoken on the streets, and the only written Ukrainian was mostly official stuff like government offices/schools/street signs, maybe a few storefronts. The only constant indicators that I was still in Ukraine were the Ukrainian accents, the occasional paper/sign written in Ukrainian, and the fact that everything was in hryvnias instead of rubles. Also, White-Ra's from Odessa which is pretty close by, when I'm watching a video where he's speaking Eastern European jibber jabber it's always Russian rather than Ukrainian. Based on that it seems to me like the people there would have been pro-Russia up until the situation escalated, and now I guess it's just whichever side offers more stability (at this point, still the government?) Come to think of it, I could see a lot of them agreeing with Dav1on's arguments. Dav1on, what part of Ukraine are you from? Eastern Ukraine, 2 mil. city Kharkiv that hosted Euro2012, the city with largest number of universities in country, basicly the biggest student city. Eastern Ukraine is also well-known as heavy-industrial center of our country, with a lot of metallurgical industry, with coal industry and so on. And guess what? We had like 1000-2000 strikers in peak. For such big city with high persontage of students, it's pretty strange... About language we speak, there is no difference for me what language to use, let it be ukrainian, russian, english or even polish, we are okay with it (ofc ukrainian or russian prefered more), it's not a big deal tbh. 40% of storefronts are with ukrainian, 40% with russian and the rest with english. BUT, it doesnt mean that we highly support the current gov. in fact we do not! Most of us do realise that if we gonna to strike right now, we may not have what to eat tomorrow, cause if we're striking, we're not jobbing. And imagine if all those people that working in heavy industry will stop their job and go for strike? Suddenly - boom! Economical collapse, default and shortfall, which doesn't look like a great perspective. It has to be a legetimate way to "change" our gov. which has to be more civil than what do we see now. @Saryph Also, if pro-government/police forces are kidnapping civilians off the streets, beating them, stripping them naked, slashing them with knives, and sometimes killing them, it sounds like they need protection. U might be mentioned a guy, who systematicly threw molotova's on police squads for a couple of days, who finally was captured and stripped, just to show the other strikers what potentially could be with them (and I personally think that police made it right) About few policemans, which also threw molotova's on strikers, well, they has to be jailed also, without any regrets! Interesting fact, first two victims that was killed by the police, was the residents from Armenia and Belarus, which looks strange for me. Also, I do have a friends on both sides, which started to hate each other and it looks awful, how people changing in one month through brainwashing. For all those people who disrespect police squads, u guys r insane, there are people also, they are serving and doing their jobs to save at least something that left from our country. Standing there behind the shields, not sleeping for 3 days (a friend of mine who serving in Berkut - special police forces, told me that it is the scariest thing in his life, when u're hiding from cocktails with ur comrads for 12 hours, and u can't answer, u can't attack the strikers, they are doing what they wan't and u can to anything in return without orders) And after all this, some strikers talking about infringement of civil rights, which is funny. @packrat386 I was reading a few interviews with regular riot police just holding the line, and one of them made what I thought to be a pretty good point. If they were out to crush the rioters, they would have done it by now. Its not like the Ukranian police force lacks the capability. Yup, exactly what I mentioned before. @farvacola It's clearly pretty easy to be an Internet authoritarian circle jerker as well it would seem. There is a reason why those leading the resistance are not the same people from 2004, something zeo seems to ignore entirely in his desire to plea on behalf of the status quo. The reason is simple, Timoshenko is jailed due to political and financial crimes (possibly she was legally resolved by Yanukovich, but I think she was also a financial criminal) . Yushenko sold himself to a Partiya Regionov (pro-presidental politican movement) and showed himself as a weak leader, so no real and strong leader we see in last couple of years for opposition. And tbh it is bad for country. @Nyxisto I get that feeling too, at least on the internet. When has it become cool to be all authoritarian like "hey who these uncivilized brutes rioting in the Ukraine? If they don't like the government why don't they elect someone else herp derp?" Major news site commentary sections are especially painful to read. I mean come on, their president is a two times convicted criminal, half of the politicians are probably corrupt, a significant part of the population is not well educated and heavy nationalized and radicalized, and the elections are probably rigged. The laws put in place by the current government have basically stripped all rights away from everyone but the president and people somewhere on their couch in western Europe are basically like "Hey, if somethings wrong why don't you go call the government support hotline?" Correct, the president is ex-criminal, and more than half of politicians are corrupted, and about education is also the truth, radicalism and nationalism is not that wide tbh, elections probably were rigged, but it is obvious that even without rigging tere were no real opponents for Yanukovich. The truth is scary, right? :D @Salazarz Without getting too deep into the whole 'evil fascist police vs crazy football hooligans' debate, it's probably worth noting that the proposed trade agreements with the EU which were denied by current Ukrainian government would make the already terrible economic situation in Ukraine even worse. On top of that, Russia provided favourable gas prices and a large monetary loan which Ukraine sorely needed pretty much with the condition that these trade agreements would not be signed. Free trade with Europe would do very little good for present day Ukraine, and has the potential to do a whole lot of harm. edit: also, if the country as a whole truly wanted this government gone, we'd probably be seeing a different picture right now. The protests that are going on right now are quite large, but are not representative of (nor supported by) the majority of Ukraine's population. U also right. Trading parthnership with EU will lead our country in a crisis, cause very few products in Ukraine are made with european standarts, do not understand me wrong, it doesn't mean we got terrible goods or awful drinks, we do have a good food, 99% is natural (cause we are partially agrarian country), but it's just got different standarts, basicly no one in Europe gonna export our products cause of this. The only thing we can propose is aircraft engines and some pieces of heavy industry. While Russia uses our products and buys it in a very large number, export is realy big. So to upgrade our production to european standarts we need a lot of cash, which means another big financial credit. | ||
KwarK
United States44393 Posts
I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want, | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On January 27 2014 18:04 KwarK wrote: Do you legitimately not understand in the Ukraine that when police officers start handing out "justice" the system isn't working. That the police as an institution should not be in the business of justice, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals and hold them until such a time as the people can deal out justice. I know that it's a concept that has no historical basis in the ex Soviet world and that police officers all over the world struggle to understand that they have no mandate to deal out justice but justice is in the hands of the people and when the police start doing it it's no more legitimate than any other armed gang imposing upon your liberties to compel you to do what they want, And you do understand? What do u know about soviet police standarts in real? As you say, their purpose is simply to apprehend criminals, but every striker that throws a cocktail, cobbles, spoils statues (V.V. Lobanovskiy statue) and using chains of police squads - automatically becomes a criminal and must be jailed. And police only holds, with almost no agression (although some manifistations was seen) to prevent things even scarier. | ||
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Val_
Ukraine156 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mdZuCfh.jpg) thats bad .. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On January 27 2014 19:54 Val_ wrote: thats bad .. Do you have this in slightly larger resolution by any chance? | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On January 27 2014 19:54 Val_ wrote: thats bad .. Not sure about the rest of citys, but i was trying to catch at least some attempts of clashes between protesters/police/hooligans and so on. It was a saturday night when something had to happen, but some groups of ppl with clubs walked in the center of the city. Well, maybe i missed something, but everything was looks like strom in a teacup :D Mass protests also not that correct, we do have protest from both sides, but they're not huge and not even big. | ||
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