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Russia:
Commends that Ukrainian amb. spoke in Russian. Better late than never.
I heard a number of strange statements:
UKR, US, UK said: Russia is trying to put pressure on Ukr. democracy. We are saying that we need a normal constitutional process that takes all regions into account. What you're saying is not democracy.
Our condolences to the people that died at Euromaidan. We are not proud of Yanukovich's actions. But some of the laws that were taken by Yanukovich [freedom of speech etc] exist in other countries. In France, you cannot wear masks during protests.
Why have you agreed that there is no democratic processes. We remember what happens in 1970 when there was a democratic revolution and the dictatorship. We believe national radicalists. You could put in people acceptable to the West, but behind them are these radicals who put them in power. This will not lead to democracy. We would like for the process that is continuing in Ukraine to lead to real democracy.
US: Asked for respecting the constitution. What if Obama went to California, then Congress would impeach him. Would that be democracy? Yanukovich was scared, we intimidated him, there was a threat of storming the building.
In Crimea, very difficult situation. Autonomous. They feared there would be a violent capture. Someone came to power in Crimea, and took action. Subordinated to securities: There are UKR armed forces which swore allegiance to this new govt. People went over there from Kyiv who were armed.
Interesting figures, 16k. There can be up to 25k according to the agreement of bases. Our troops are protecting the sites from extremists who can harm buildings and civilians. We agree with authorities in Crimea that this is needed.
Power said that all of these claims are fabrications. This surprises me. Power is using info from US TV, which says everything is beautiful in Ukraine. Then bad guy Yanukovich came to power, and then... [mumble]
What wave of violation went through Ukraine. Major people from municipalities from taken. People put on pillars and were mocked. Would we see this is Chicago or Bordeaux. What happened in Kyiv, was it a made up concern. Attempts to take over admin. buildings. In eastern parts not made up, armed people tried to take over govts.
I'd like to get to the key points. It's not just our concern, it's a logical concern for South-Eastern Ukrainians. We used the term already, the rightist forces are very strong. They cannot stand Russians, their leaders fought under Hitler's banner against the Soviet Union, the anti-Hitler coalition. These people are very close to power, and are supported on the shoulders of others. Millions of people feel that, half a million in Crimea.
Could Russia allow a repeat of Kyiv in Eastern Ukraine where milions of people live. When Grenada was taken over, US president said we protect 1000 people. There was no threat from Granada.
How can international instittuions be used? OSCE etc. They can be used. We understand. But in Kosovo, there were no instittions, but NATO went in. Would OSCE mission go in and get rid of radicals. But radicals don't want to listen to radicals. It will take months to send mission, what will happen until then?
Do not perceive this meeting as ... We are giving a fuller perspective of what we see. Previous meetings were ex prompt. The decision to use force in Ukraine has been taken. We are not saying htat thiis meeting will lead to this decision being taken, but an important conclusion to be drawn: there must be no continuation of fact finding of forcible use of violence, defence of language laws. There might be participation of international agencies. But must refuse violent forcing of culture, etc on other people.
In a practical sense, someone said that it's not possible to speak about 21 february agreement as Yanukovich left. But we believe that he is the legitimate president of Ukraine. People must decide. But the question is not whether it's him or not, there must be a democratic parameter. We cannot just cobble together different laws. Party of Regions got afraid, they still exist, they have support in the East. Refrain from violently having the problem.
[Poor poor translator...]
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"Our goal isnt to restore Yanukovich" ..."But his letter means we can invade" ...lol
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On March 04 2014 07:14 Saryph wrote:
"so what if the president violated the agreement on the 21st?" - Russia.
To be fair it's a reasonable point from what I understand since the president leaving the country shouldn't exactly make the entire agreement void since it included things like disarming militias.
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...why does her blouse have so much.. freedom..
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On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote:This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum". The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine. So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable. And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any  ), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this. Btw, I have a M.A. in politics. If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise. History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics. Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc. What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia). In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists. Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see. Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire? It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities. Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing. Well one way to find out would be for elections in May. Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box. We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution! Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.
You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president.
The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it.
East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment.
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US:
In response to Russia. On legitimacy of Yanukovich, and the 21 feb. agreement. We commend FM's who mediated the agrement and would have supported the fulfillment of the agremeent. There were 24h to make changes at the Rada. He did not give those signatures, he left the city. He left the seat of the Presidency vacant for 2 days during a crisis. In that context the Rada voted him out of office, with his own party turning against him.
What we have seen here, is that all, except for Russia, agree on dialogue. The very simple question, why doesn't Russia support an observer mission, and mediation. Why not pull back, instead of sending more. Why not?
When military intervention is the first resort, it's hard to not conclude that Russia does not want peace. Why choose it, if consequences.
Only those that don't like the truth would not agree to observers who's purpose is to study the truth.
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On March 04 2014 07:18 r.Evo wrote:
...why does her blouse have so much.. freedom..
i bet you missed the whole speech. 
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On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote:This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum". The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine. So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable. And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any ), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this. Btw, I have a M.A. in politics. If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise. History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics. Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc. What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia). In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists. Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see. Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire? It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities. Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing. Well one way to find out would be for elections in May. Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box. We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution! Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced. You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president. The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it. East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment. there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.
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The voice over for the french guy forgot how to open her mouth seemingly, is she drunk?
She sounds like a frickin busdriver.
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France: for 4.5y I have heard from Russia about non-interference. But now we have heard from Russia that we should interfere. Everything that Russia has said is interference.
[Ok, too tired now to continue.]
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Russia getting told by France now.
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On March 04 2014 07:20 Ghanburighan wrote:
France: for 4.5y I have heard from Russia about non-interference. But now we have heard from Russia that we should interfere. Everything that Russia has said is interference.
[Ok, too tired now to continue.]
nice job dude overall
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On March 04 2014 07:19 m4ini wrote:
The voice over for the french guy forgot how to open her mouth seemingly, is she drunk?
She sounds like a frickin busdriver.
Translators dieing everywhere.
@Ghanburighan, thanks for the Russian summary specifically. :3
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On March 04 2014 07:19 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote:This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum". The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine. So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable. And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any ), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this. Btw, I have a M.A. in politics. If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise. History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics. Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc. What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia). In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists. Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see. Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire? It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities. Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing. Well one way to find out would be for elections in May. Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box. We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution! Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced. You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president. The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it. East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment. there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.
Are you serious??? :D
What do you think exactly was the origin of the Maidan public riots?
It was the refusal of eastern party's Yanukovich to sign a cooperation treaty with EU.
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On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote:This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum". The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine. So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable. And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any ), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this. Btw, I have a M.A. in politics. If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise. History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics. Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc. What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia). In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists. Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see. Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire? It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities. Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing. Well one way to find out would be for elections in May. Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box. We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution! Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced. The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it. .
What?
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EPT
