Ukraine Crisis - Page 175

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Nyxisto

Germany6287 Posts

March 03 2014 22:10 GMT

#3481

On March 04 2014 07:09 xDaunt wrote:
This Russian ambassador should just unzip his pants and lay his dick on the table rather than waste everyone's time with this incoherent nonsense. The effect would be the same.

If his dick is as impressive as his line of argumentation I definitely would not recommend that.

r.Evo

Germany14080 Posts

March 03 2014 22:10 GMT

#3482

If you swap to Russian his sentences sound a lot more sensible as in they have a coherent structure.

Caladan

Germany1238 Posts

March 03 2014 22:10 GMT

#3483

On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote:
This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum".

The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine.

So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable.

And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state.
The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy.

It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any

), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this.

Btw, I have a M.A. in politics.

If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise.

History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics.

Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc.
What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia).

In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory.

The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy.

That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.

Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see.

Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire?

It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities.
Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing.

Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.

Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box.
We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution!

Eisregen

Germany967 Posts

March 03 2014 22:10 GMT

#3484

There we go...Hitler was thrown into the ring

Saryph

United States1955 Posts

March 03 2014 22:11 GMT

#3485

Complaining about unruliness in eastern Ukrainian administrative buildings as you are busing in your own citizens to tear down the flags over said buildings and raise Russian flags.

Also, he has gone and called them nazis. haha

Makro

France16890 Posts

March 03 2014 22:11 GMT

#3486

On March 04 2014 07:10 Eisregen wrote:
There we go...Hitler was thrown into the ring

haha yea :D

Fjodorov

5007 Posts

March 03 2014 22:11 GMT

#3487

Ok Mr Russian, but plz answer why you dont want a international peacekeeping operation and observers to protect minorities and monitor the situation

Catch]22

Sweden2683 Posts

March 03 2014 22:11 GMT

#3488

Hgnn... the economy...

Moscow stock down 12%?

Sub40APM

6336 Posts

March 03 2014 22:12 GMT

#3489

On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:

On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:

On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:

If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise.

That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.

Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.

Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.

r.Evo

Germany14080 Posts

March 03 2014 22:12 GMT

#3490

On March 04 2014 07:11 Fjodorov wrote:
Ok Mr Russian, but plz answer why you dont want a international peacekeeping operation and observers to protect minorities and monitor the situation

Not sure if anything changed but 1-2 days ago Putin welcomed OSCE observers when Merkel mentioned it.

Eisregen

Germany967 Posts

March 03 2014 22:12 GMT

#3491

Ukraine is now suffering from possible genocide aswell...hahaha

m4ini

4215 Posts

March 03 2014 22:13 GMT

#3492

Am i the only one who wants a 1v1 between Putin and Klitschko? Man vs man? God that would be awesome. Winner takes it all.

Sub40APM

6336 Posts

March 03 2014 22:13 GMT

#3493

lololol "We cant use the fact of force to impose will"

Makro

France16890 Posts

March 03 2014 22:14 GMT

#3494

On March 04 2014 07:13 m4ini wrote:
Am i the only one who wants a 1v1 between Putin and Klitschko? Man vs man? God that would be awesome. Winner takes it all.

is putin allowed to use his bear ?

r.Evo

Germany14080 Posts

March 03 2014 22:14 GMT

#3495

On March 04 2014 07:13 m4ini wrote:
Am i the only one who wants a 1v1 between Putin and Klitschko? Man vs man? God that would be awesome. Winner takes it all.

Let's hope it's not in Judo or chess-boxing.

...also I'd love a delayed stream of this with an actually useful translator.

Sub40APM

6336 Posts

March 03 2014 22:14 GMT

#3496

On March 04 2014 07:13 m4ini wrote:
Am i the only one who wants a 1v1 between Putin and Klitschko? Man vs man? God that would be awesome. Winner takes it all.

Well, since it wouldnt be a photoshop opportunity, Klistchko would just knock him out in a punch.

Derez

Netherlands6068 Posts

March 03 2014 22:14 GMT

#3497

On March 04 2014 07:12 r.Evo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not sure if anything changed but 1-2 days ago Putin welcomed OSCE observers when Merkel mentioned it.

He didn't welcome observers, he welcomed a 'fact finding mission' -> 8 jeeps driving around in a column around the country, which would just be a delaying tactic. They're against any systemic monitoring that they can't control because it can be 'counterproductive'.

Saryph

United States1955 Posts

March 03 2014 22:14 GMT

#3498

"so what if the president violated the agreement on the 21st?" - Russia.

m4ini

4215 Posts

March 03 2014 22:15 GMT

#3499

On March 04 2014 07:14 Makro wrote:

Show nested quote +

is putin allowed to use his bear ?

Only if Klitschko can bring his brother.

Nyxisto

Germany6287 Posts

March 03 2014 22:15 GMT

#3500

On March 04 2014 07:12 r.Evo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not sure if anything changed but 1-2 days ago Putin welcomed OSCE observers when Merkel mentioned it.

Yeah, he also said he's super peaceful and does not want to escalate any further, but keeps sending troops into another sovereign country. I'm not 100% convinced he does what he says.

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