EPTHe is a well trained puppet.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 173
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
He is a well trained puppet. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics. Wasn't some country at some point suggesting economical restriction on Ukraine or was it targeted at Yanukovich & co only? | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:45 Sub40APM wrote: case closed! Was just trying to analysize what is happening for you guys, nevermind...  | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote: This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum". The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine. So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable. And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any  ), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this.Btw, I have a M.A. in politics. If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise. | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:48 Alzadar wrote: The translating service is really good, photoshopping his lips in real time so the deaf French people can understand. Thank you, I thought I was getting paranoid | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:42 Caladan wrote: This whole topic is really formal politics vs real politics. Most treaties are not the paper worth they are printed at. Also this "memorandum". The behaviour of Russia is not really surprising. It would never just watch Ukraine becoming a NATO or even EU state, as most Russians and many Ukraines see themselves as "brother states", and just recently became two different states, having a common origin. In fact the origin of Russian culture lies in today's Ukraine. So all the western politicians are not really honest if they act as they would be surprised by Russia's actions. It was really foreseeable. And honestly, I don't think Ukraine in its current form has any future. The pro-western and anti-western groups just won't find any compromise to live in one state. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. It is also important to notice that borders are nothing that God gave to us (if there is any ), borders are results of actual politics and history. Borders can and will change in the future, if there is motivation to do so. And the two interest groups in Ukraine will not be able to live in one state, I'm pretty sure of this.Btw, I have a M.A. in politics. The east/west divide is not all that clear. Parts of crimea are not majority russian, plenty of russians support kiev. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
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Makro
France16890 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:50 darkness wrote: Wasn't some country at some point suggesting economical restriction on Ukraine or was it targeted at Yanukovich & co only? It was targeted sanctions, banning them from traveling to Europe and looking at their bank accounts. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Meanwhile, Russia's UN envoy has said ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has asked Russia to use military force in Ukraine. Vitaly Churkin said in a speech at the UN that Mr Yanukovych had made the request in writing to Russian President Vladimir Putin. So this is why Yanukovich is in Russia now. To justify any aggression as a "legitimate president" (according to Russia), which is why Russia doesn't recognise the current Ukrainian president. Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26424738 | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote: If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise. History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics. Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc. What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia). In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:53 darkness wrote: So this is why Yanukovich is in Russia now. To justify any aggression as a "legitimate president" (according to Russia), hence why Russia doesn't recognise the current Ukrainian president. Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26424738 I dont think its just that, where else was he going to go? He was already banned by the EU guys, his assets there have been under investigations. Where else could he run to. This new approach, Yanokvich invited us, really, is just another convenient thing Russians can bring up in case someone does some routine background research of the current 'leader' of Crimea 'asking' for help. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:57 Sub40APM wrote: I dont think its just that, where else was he going to go? He was already banned by the EU guys, his assets there have been under investigations. Where else could he run to. This new approach, Yanokvich invited us, really, is just another convenient thing Russians can bring up in case someone does some routine background research of the current 'leader' of Crimea 'asking' for help. The russians asked for this meeting. The entire purpose of this meeting is for Russia Today to creatively re-edit the footage to make it seem like everyone accepted the letter, show chinese support and provide legitimation for when they might want to push further into the Ukraine. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote: History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics. Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc. What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia). In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory. The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy. That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
[speaking French] I heard broad support for my country. Protection of the people, sovereignty and territorial and integrity. We were listening to Russian amb. with great attention. But we have not heard no compelling answer why Russian forces are occupying Crimea, in violation of... yada yada... Budapest memorandum [read out the lines]. Russia is undermining NPT. I wish to brief you of recent events: 16k Russian troops in Crimea. They came from Russian soil (not from inside the bases). They seize, block and control crucial govt. locations (HQ, govt. buildings, services, etc). Ukrainian armed forces have exercised restraint. Russians are doing psychological and informational warfare, discrediting govt. and calling it Russian peacekeeping. Today provocation is planned, Russians pretending to be Ukrainians plan to kill Russians to use it as an excuse. We have agreed to accept an observing mission. We are calling for more observation, especially of the rights of Russian speaking persons. I am also a Russian speaking person, but I do not need any support. Do not undermine confidence in the UN. We have in the media some Russian companies, so with your permission, I continue in Russian. [In Russian: I would like to congratulate all Russian christians with the feast. I would like to call upon all leaders of the church to pray and consult with god, and listen to us. In your attempts to explain the presence of Russian troops as Peacekeepers, you have seen that many see it as a provocation. It's unacceptable under the Budapest Memorandum, and also not allowed for a UNSC member who has additional responsibilities. None of the reasons can be condoned by the UN charter. This is a question which is the purview of the Ukrainian govt. and should be done under the constitution. We don't need military troops as assitance. Regarding 21st agreement - we are surprised. Russians participated in the preparation with this agreement, but refrained from signing this agreement. How could this agreement be implemented, former president, left the capital and refused to fulfil constitutional functions. You call what happened in Ukraine a coup d'etat. But in the Democratic world... [didn't catch]. We have different ideas of human rights. In November, People of all nationalities came to protest, without anyone telling them what to do, and with no pressure from the West. The protested a corrupt system which had brought poverty to all regions of the country. Yanukovich, who Russia is defending, was living in luxury. You have reiterated what Lavrov already said, the former govt. used legitimate means in keeping order. The peaceful protesting students were beaten by the police, now they are being accused of violating the rights of the police. There was a repressive law which limited freedom of speech, etc... Yanukovich removed these rights. You are saying that something is wrong in Ukraine. You have said something wrong about the church. Orthodox church is related to Moscow orthodoxy. Russia reasoned with the request of Aksionov but he's not a legitimate leader. He wasn't appointed according to the constitution. We are a member of the federation, without the central govt. agreeing, calling foreign troops cannot be legitimate. Even Crimean people don't all support foreign troops. Some people are russian speaking. Despite existing conditions, we support Crimea. Ukrainian national bank gave 400 million banks to the Crimean central bank. Russia is destablizing the situation with information warfare. We call on Russian partners to stop spreading untrue information] [In English now: We would like to thank all who support stopping aggression and finding a diplomatic solution.] | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 04 2014 06:59 Derez wrote: The russians asked for this meeting. The entire purpose of this meeting is for Russia Today to creatively re-edit the footage to make it seem like everyone accepted the letter, show chinese support and provide legitimation for when they might want to push further into the Ukraine. Actually, our russian friends here, what of this meeting so far turned up in russian media? | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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