• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:19
CEST 13:19
KST 20:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four0BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy herO joins T1 Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four The New Patch Killed Mech! TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BSL Season 21 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1266 users

Ukraine Crisis - Page 177

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 175 176 177 178 179 577 Next
There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 03 2014 22:22 GMT
#3521
On March 04 2014 07:21 Caladan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 07:19 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:
[quote]

If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise.


History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics.

Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc.
What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia).

In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory.


The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy.


That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.


Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see.

Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire?

It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities.
Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing.
Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.



Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box.
We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution!
Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.


You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president.

The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it.

East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment.
there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.


Are you serious??? :D
What do you think exactly was the origin of the Maidan public riots?

It was the refusal of eastern party's Yanukovich to sign a cooperation treaty with EU.

There were no public riots, there were public protests. They were then brutally attacked by police, which swelled the protests and transformed them into riots when the government declared all participants of 'mass actions' the equivalent of terrorists. The turn-around at the last minute in regards to the EU, without references to either parliament or to a referendum, was a violation of Yanukovich's own promises to the people who voted for him for further EU negotiations.
Saumure
Profile Joined February 2012
France404 Posts
March 03 2014 22:23 GMT
#3522
lol french guy is such an ass
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
March 03 2014 22:23 GMT
#3523
On March 04 2014 07:21 Caladan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 07:19 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:50 m4ini wrote:
[quote]

If you have a M.A. in politics you should know that the only way the ukraine splits is a democratic way, if anything. There's examples in the real world that show what happens otherwise.


History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics.

Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc.
What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia).

In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory.


The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy.


That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.


Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see.

Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire?

It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities.
Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing.
Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.



Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box.
We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution!
Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.


You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president.

The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it.

East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment.
there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.


Are you serious??? :D
What do you think exactly was the origin of the Maidan public riots?

It was the refusal of eastern party's Yanukovich to sign a cooperation treaty with EU.

That might have been the start, but it turned into a protest that was about much more than that, mainly about massive corruption. That's also why a significant part of the party of the regions defected from his side and voted him out of office.

We have no idea how a vote on ukrainian independence would turn out, probably you'd see districts in crimea reject russian governance. Then what?
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
March 03 2014 22:24 GMT
#3524
On March 04 2014 07:23 Saumure wrote:
lol french guy is such an ass

UK guy seems more reasonable and eloquent than the US and France combined. He also has the most impressive biography. =P
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 03 2014 22:25 GMT
#3525
UK asked if Russia accepts OSCE mission in the next few days.

Russia responds, we are not talking about the OSCE. They have their own functions. The mission has to be discussed. [That's a no.]

Russia then complains about too much desinformation coming from English-speaking colleagues.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Eisregen
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany967 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-03 22:26:09
March 03 2014 22:25 GMT
#3526
olololol the russian avoiding every direct question =D

"too many statements that arent realistic"... xD
Photo-Noob@ http://www.flickr.com/photos/eisregen1983/
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
March 03 2014 22:25 GMT
#3527
Russian round 3: 'You're lying!'
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 03 2014 22:26 GMT
#3528
Bahaha, the Russian won't confirm that they'll allow OSCE to spectate.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 03 2014 22:26 GMT
#3529
“One might think that Moscow has just become the rapid response arm of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.”
Caladan
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany1238 Posts
March 03 2014 22:28 GMT
#3530
On March 04 2014 07:23 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 07:21 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:19 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:
[quote]

History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics.

Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc.
What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia).

In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory.


The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy.


That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.


Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see.

Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire?

It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities.
Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing.
Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.



Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box.
We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution!
Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.


You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president.

The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it.

East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment.
there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.


Are you serious??? :D
What do you think exactly was the origin of the Maidan public riots?

It was the refusal of eastern party's Yanukovich to sign a cooperation treaty with EU.

That might have been the start, but it turned into a protest that was about much more than that, mainly about massive corruption. That's also why a significant part of the party of the regions defected from his side and voted him out of office.

We have no idea how a vote on ukrainian independence would turn out, probably you'd see districts in crimea reject russian governance. Then what?


So, why did Ukraine vote Yanukovich the 2nd time as president when we already had the orange revolution in 2004 because of vote corruption by... Yanukovich?
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
March 03 2014 22:28 GMT
#3531
omg tthis russian guy... Its so obvious that Russia considers crimea a part of Russia. They say they might have to go in with troops to Ukraine, the other nations are like "uhm you already are in Ukraine...".
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 03 2014 22:28 GMT
#3532
Ukrainian amb. says that the Russian Black Sea Fleet can be up to 11k (not 25k as Russian amb. claimed).

In December, Russians sent a note that they would cap at 11k.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 03 2014 22:28 GMT
#3533
can someone link me another UNSC stream, the BBC one is lagging way too far behind. UN really needs to invest in more servers.
Saumure
Profile Joined February 2012
France404 Posts
March 03 2014 22:28 GMT
#3534
On March 04 2014 07:26 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
“One might think that Moscow has just become the rapid response arm of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.”

could you top quoting shit without giving any source or commenting it? you are getting really annoying
Saumure
Profile Joined February 2012
France404 Posts
March 03 2014 22:29 GMT
#3535
On March 04 2014 07:28 Sub40APM wrote:
can someone link me another UNSC stream, the BBC one is lagging way too far behind. UN really needs to invest in more servers.

http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/3086187116001
this
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-03 22:50:13
March 03 2014 22:29 GMT
#3536
On March 04 2014 03:06 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 02:42 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On March 04 2014 02:38 farvacola wrote:
On March 04 2014 02:35 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:
On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:
If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out.
Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it.

Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well;
[image loading]

My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea?

I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems.

The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict.

It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak.


On March 04 2014 01:20 Pandemona wrote:
On March 04 2014 01:17 Derez wrote:
On March 04 2014 01:06 Pandemona wrote:
If shit really does hit the fan and war or attacks do happen. The only way EU and America can battle with the Russian's is economically imo. There is no way American can afford a large scale war now and no one in Europe is even remotely equipped with the right numbers of military personal or funds to even help out.
Putin is one crazy bastard and has got his own way again by the looks of it.

Just to put it in terms of army sizes as well;
[image loading]

My brother who has recently left the army said they aren't even classified as an "army" anymore as they do not have the numbers to call themselves one. The UK army Is classified as a "defense force" as it has less than 100,000 people in it. Also no reserves as UK again doesn't do military training etcetc. Also we don't have a working Air craft carrier so we are pretty much fucked and no use to anyone, unless you want to stop off and re fuel at extraordinary prices or have a cup of tea?

I have no idea why people perceive Russia's military to be that strong. They spend a fraction of what the west spends, conflicts they've been in have shown massive weaknesses and most of their equipment is rather outdated to the point where they have to import weapon systems.

The economy in the EU/US might not be great at the moment, but neither is Russia's. The russian central bank has already spent an estimated 10% of their foreign currency reserves on stabilizing the ruble, and the collapse of gas imports to Europe would completely cripple them. The Russian economy won't survive any type of real conflict.

It's just that Putin is a better bluffer at this point and that NATO consists of a set of leaders that are exceptionally weak.


Completely agree, but they still have the numbers, even if outdated and old they can still do crazy damage with what they have.
I think the best way like you mentioned is to just cripple their economy. They have dropped 10% this morning already?



Actually, it's outdated only to the degree that they decided to use mothballed tanks and aircraft (ie. things that weren't even in service) and a reserve division in the 5-day war with Georgia because it literally required no effort militarily. T-62/64s were the brunt of the Russian AFVs used. Apparently iirc a few T-90s were deployed and it was complete overkill and the tanks were untouchable. That's just heavy armor btw.
The hilarious illusion of "outdated weapons" comes from the fact that Russia never sells their actual weapons. They sell export variants also known as "monkey models" that are so incredibly watered down that the only likeness between what they sell and what they use themselves is appearance. Militarily, a country like Ukraine will be a rout. Numbers are irrelevant, also. @Pandemona, You're also conveniently forgetting that what Ukraine has is far inferior to what Russia has.

Post a source please.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be a sarcastic dude or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_variants_of_Soviet_military_equipment

It's surprising how few people who love to bash Russia but don't know nothing about one of the things they're most known for: their large-scale military exports. USSR/Russia has things they use in their own military. If they want to sell them, they'll develop export variants that are a lot cheaper and a lot more inferior. As I recall, the development of such variants came out of the motivation to have highly and easily produced variants in case of nuclear war where heavier development would be far more difficult due to the destruction of facilities manufacturing highly-advanced models starting in the post-WW2 era. It built into the Soviets' budding military export scheme, and also served the motivation of protecting their technology from insecure third world countries that could easily have it secured/taken by other countries.

This is something I knew ever since I learned anything about Russian military tech and it was put straight in front of me. It's no secret, quite the opposite if anything. You know, you can use google yourself, too


Which might all be true but it doesn't change the fact that while the russians have some newer tanks, their equipment is still 70-80% last generation gear. They drive around maybe 500 t-90's on an active tank fleet of maybe 2.7k, the rest being t-72's or worse. When it comes to their air assets the situation gets even worse, and that's not even taking into consideration that they have always been technologically behind on the west. Place a 4th gen western fighter vs a 4th gen russian fighter and I know where I'm putting my money. After that, you get basic concerns of professionalism, unit cohesion and conscription and you end up with an army that seems pretty damn large but is operationally not all that capable. 2008 showed that pretty clearly.

To preface, your post shows some ignorance here, and you're also insulting the US military very much too. Having military legacy, your comment is particularly amusing when people like my dad or a variety of old-timers can tell me things like, "Yeah, the M16 today is a lot better than the shit we had in Vietnam" or "The aircraft nowadays have all these crazy electronics they didn't have before", etc. You see, those things that were originally created in old days, most of it is constantly upgraded, and that includes the United States and other militaries. Even Russia's T-72s are upgraded to modern status and are more than likely more than a match for any other armor in the world. I'm more of a tank junkie than anything else so that's what I focus on. Their other AFVs are also pretty new or highly upgraded previous models.

To say, "This thing was originally developed 30 years ago, therefore it's bad" is among the most ignorant comments you can make when speaking of militaries, and that includes the US military. 70-80% of our stuff is originally from the dinosaur era. The only reason why we still use it is because we upgrade it so that it's extremely competent today.

If you read my previous post to which I replied with the one you're quoting, a big chunk of the Russian force in that war used mothballed vehicles and an underequipped reserve division iirc (because this is how reserves tend to be anywhere you go) to fight the war in 2008. Do you know what this means? They were using things that are not in service at all and were not outfitted like standard Russian forces. Things that were largely put in storage.. Russia isn't going to make a large-scale mobilization for a conflict that they probably could have fought with angry Chechen terrorists lol (slight exaggeration but I think you get the point). It was quite literally the easiest military conflict in Russian history.

Ancient Russian weapons that haven't seen the light of day in active service for ages such as the T-62 and even the T-55 (which was made in 1948 HAHA!) magically showed their faces. The fact of the matter is, the Georgian military was so small and weak that it took no effort from the Russians to take care of business. Once Saakashvili surrendered, that was that.

However, if the Russians were to face a foe with any degree of military competence, expect completely outfitted divisions and their top-of-the-line weapons to be seen, and nothing else.

Your logic is also bad because you're insulting the US military in very many facets because the same goes for the United States as previously stated. For example, the F-15 is a very old plane. The original F-15 is garbage by today's standards. But obviously, the F-15 has been constantly updated, so that barring 5th generation planes, the most modernized variant of the F-15 in USAF service is probably the most competent fighter plane out there.

Russia doesn't need huge numbers of T-90s, though a few years ago I saw figures of 1000+ so I don't know what's going on tbh. The numbers have changed a lot over the past 6 years (depending on where I see it) I've been observing it and I have no idea why. But regardless, their T-72s upgraded are practically as good, their T-80s are practically as good, so why waste unnecessary money? Russia isn't a highly offensive focused military like say the United States is, or some European countries used to be when they had huge militaries to speak of. If the US wasn't in a war every other year, our military production would probably be a lot less, among other reasons.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 03 2014 22:29 GMT
#3537
On March 04 2014 07:28 Sub40APM wrote:
can someone link me another UNSC stream, the BBC one is lagging way too far behind. UN really needs to invest in more servers.

http://www.c-span.org/live/
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Saryph
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1955 Posts
March 03 2014 22:30 GMT
#3538
On March 04 2014 07:23 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 07:21 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:19 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:56 Caladan wrote:
[quote]

History shows that border shifts happen only very rare in a democratic way. That's what I ment to say: Formal politics vs real politics.

Formally Ukraine is (somewhat) democratic, has souvereign borders, etc.
What is really happening is something very different though. The elected president is not even in office anymore. We more or less have a de-facto government (regime) in Ukraine at the moment. Also de-facto Crimea is separating itself (with help/pressure from Russia).

In a perfect world things would be different, but this is politics, this is not perfect, not formal. It is a battle of powers and incentives. More so international politics as there is no real superior power/legislation/court. International politics are anarchy and public international law is just obligatory.


The only reasonable solution in my opinion is for eastern Ukraine to separate itself and become associated or part of Russia, and for western and mid Ukraine to become part of EU and NATO. So everyone is happy.


That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.


Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see.

Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire?

It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities.
Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing.
Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.



Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box.
We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution!
Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.


You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president.

The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it.

East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment.
there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.


Are you serious??? :D
What do you think exactly was the origin of the Maidan public riots?

It was the refusal of eastern party's Yanukovich to sign a cooperation treaty with EU.

That might have been the start, but it turned into a protest that was about much more than that, mainly about massive corruption. That's also why a significant part of the party of the regions defected from his side and voted him out of office.

We have no idea how a vote on ukrainian independence would turn out, probably you'd see districts in crimea reject russian governance. Then what?



You can judge its value yourself, but this was posted, though I am too bad at googling to source it:
+ Show Spoiler +





Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 03 2014 22:30 GMT
#3539
On March 04 2014 07:28 Caladan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 07:23 Derez wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:21 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:19 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:18 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:12 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:10 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:07 Sub40APM wrote:
On March 04 2014 07:05 Caladan wrote:
On March 04 2014 06:59 m4ini wrote:
[quote]

[quote]

That's your point that i was commenting on. It would be only reasonable if you get them to vote for it. By force, you set the stage for another country spawning terrorists.


Yeah, I'm not saying this is a just solution, but it is the only non-war solution I can see.

Another question for you then: Was the current de-facto government of Ukraine elected by the majority in Ukraine in general elections? Or was it set into force by the ones on Maidan, being loud, setting things on fire?

It's the same now. At the moment, people in east Ukraine are occupying government facilities.
Politics is mostly made by those who are being loud and acting up, not the ones being silent and waiting in their houses to be asked for elections. That's why direct democracy is a very rare thing.
Well one way to find out would be for elections in May.



Yeah, but if Tymoshenko gets 60% votes in whole Ukraine, but 90% in western Ukraine and 20% in eastern Ukraine, this will solve exactly *nothing*. Please try to think out of the box.
We're having the same fight east vs west in Ukraine for 10 years now. It's time for a solution!
Why? Yushenko won the elections in 2004, then due to his poor performance and some other crap he got 7% in the next election. Unlike Russia, its possible for incumbent to be replaced.


You're looking at it the wrong way. It is not about a single person. It is not about *who* is president.

The spanish government was elected in a democratic way. That doesn't change the fact that Catalonia does not take orders from it.

East and West Ukraine just are too polarized and different for a united future. Democracy cannot solve this. That's why federalism exists. But even federalism has limits, and the next step is secession. That is where we are heading at the moment.
there is literally no evidence that this is the case in Ukraine. Just like when Eastern Party Presidents were in charge, the West of the country wasnt demanding independence.


Are you serious??? :D
What do you think exactly was the origin of the Maidan public riots?

It was the refusal of eastern party's Yanukovich to sign a cooperation treaty with EU.

That might have been the start, but it turned into a protest that was about much more than that, mainly about massive corruption. That's also why a significant part of the party of the regions defected from his side and voted him out of office.

We have no idea how a vote on ukrainian independence would turn out, probably you'd see districts in crimea reject russian governance. Then what?


So, why did Ukraine vote Yanukovich the 2nd time as president when we already had the orange revolution in 2004 because of vote corruption by... Yanukovich?

2004 was about Kuchma riggin the election. 2010 was about Yankovich (a) promising to continue EU negotiations (b) Orange Revolution forces splitting the vote (c) incompetence of Yushenko.
Caladan
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany1238 Posts
March 03 2014 22:32 GMT
#3540
On March 04 2014 07:29 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
If the US wasn't in a war every other year, our military production would probably be a lot less


Best sentence in this thread when trying to understand real politics.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Prev 1 175 176 177 178 179 577 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
INu's Battles
11:00
INu's Battle #13
ByuN vs Zoun
IntoTheiNu 39
LiquipediaDiscussion
Replay Cast
10:00
LiuLi Cup #46 - Day 1
CranKy Ducklings110
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Reynor 421
OGKoka 269
Harstem 182
Lowko142
SortOf 94
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 18904
Calm 9718
Hyuk 3018
Horang2 2633
GuemChi 2075
Bisu 1309
Flash 1040
Mong 678
actioN 664
Larva 643
[ Show more ]
Jaedong 472
Stork 388
Mini 347
TY 228
Hyun 187
Soma 171
Killer 159
EffOrt 151
Pusan 128
hero 104
Light 104
JYJ98
Barracks 76
ggaemo 71
Rush 69
Soulkey 66
Snow 50
Mind 36
Noble 33
Aegong 33
ToSsGirL 27
JulyZerg 24
sorry 23
Sharp 22
soO 21
Sea.KH 18
Sacsri 17
Bale 15
yabsab 14
Movie 14
Shine 12
SilentControl 12
Dota 2
XaKoH 485
XcaliburYe273
League of Legends
JimRising 405
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2522
shoxiejesuss934
x6flipin435
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor181
Other Games
summit1g11788
singsing1814
B2W.Neo329
Pyrionflax287
Sick35
Mew2King28
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV311
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling123
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
4h 41m
Replay Cast
11h 41m
WardiTV Invitational
23h 41m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 3h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 12h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.