Ukraine Crisis - Page 143

On March 03 2014 09:18 Ghanburighan wrote:


As has been discussed in this thread a large number of times, that's not an accurate description of the events. There was no coup d'etat.

On March 03 2014 09:14 caelym wrote:
I'm curious about a few things regarding the current situation. How is the current "government" in Kiev legitimate when it violently overthrew a democratically elected leadership? Doesn't this set up a bad precedent where the opposition party can just resort to riling up a mob whenever they lose an election?

On March 03 2014 09:21 caelym wrote:

I'm not super well versed on the situation, but I'm pretty sure various sources reported that armed protesters took over government buildings.

The people were victorious as a result of sheer physical courage. The EU foreign ministers who were supposed to be treated to a bloody spectacle saw something else: the successful defense of the Maidan. The horrifying massacre provoked a general sense of outrage, even among some of the people who had been Yanukovych’s allies. He did something he probably had not, when the day began, intended to do: he signed an agreement in which he promised not to use violence. His policemen understood, perhaps better than he, what this meant: the end of the regime. They melted away, and he ran for his life. Power shifted to parliament, where a new coalition of oppositionists and dissenters from Yanukovych’s party formed a majority. Reforms began, beginning with the constitution. Presidential elections were called for May.
Source.

On March 03 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:

Anymore autonomy and Crimea is independent. It already sets its own language policy, its own budget. The only thing it doesnt have are its own foreign minister and an armed force. And I am not sure how calculated the dance is, entering Ukrainian Army bases and at gunpoint disarming troops of an independent state is an act of war, no?

On March 03 2014 09:26 unigolyn wrote:
The salient point here is that the Parliament is still democratically elected. The people calling the shots are elected representatives, not random thugs staging a coup. Ukraine's system is semi-presidential, not fully parliamentary, so they're holding new presidential elections soon.

On March 03 2014 09:33 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope the Ukranian people are doing ok. Our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone there during this difficult time. It really stinks that we have such a weak president in Obama. Putin would have never tried this with a president like George W. Bush.

On March 03 2014 09:34 caelym wrote:

I can't help but feel that some MPs were heavily influenced by the presence of the mob of protesters.

On March 03 2014 09:19 unigolyn wrote:


And we've been in the EU since 2004 and there's very little German stuff being sold here, way more Swedish, Finnish, and Polish goods. Pharmaceuticals, yes, but that's just because Germany is the largest producer of pharmaceuticals in the EU.

It's natural that you're seeing more German goods considering the entire point of the EU is primarily trade. There are no tariffs on EU goods, so you're going to be importing EU goods.

As to your "German" cars, I'm relatively sure they're not actually produced in Germany.

On March 03 2014 09:33 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope the Ukranian people are doing ok. Our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone there during this difficult time. It really stinks that we have such a weak president in Obama. Putin would have never tried this with a president like George W. Bush.

On March 03 2014 09:24 a-game wrote:

It doesn't matter if it's an act of war, how many times has North Korea "declared" war without actually doing anything.

They are forcing Ukrainian bases in Crimea to stand down, and if the Ukrainian leaders were so inclined, they could decide those are grounds for a military conflict. But we all know that that's not going to happen. It's an embarrassing and emasculating incident for Ukraine, but everyone knows that they will accept a certain level of bullying without retaliating.

It would take a lot to get Ukraine to actually fight back (eg. asking for Crimea to be a new nation, or moving troops into the Ukraine mainland), and Russia is clearly stipulating that they aren't going to take it to that level.

The rule of Ukraine’s new leaders will “end with a new revolution” amid more bloodshed, Russia’s Prime Minister Dimitry Medvedev has predicted. In a Facebook post, he accused the new government in Kiev of “seizing power”, adding that while Viktor Yanukovich had practically no authority, he remained the legitimate head of state according the constitution.

We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation’s clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, in contravention of Russia’s obligations under the UN Charter and its 1997 basing agreement with Ukraine. We call on Russia to address any ongoing security or human rights concerns that it has with Ukraine through direct negotiations, and/or via international observation or mediation under the auspices of the UN or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. We stand ready to assist with these efforts.

We also call on all parties concerned to behave with the greatest extent of self-restraint and responsibility, and to decrease the tensions.

We note that Russia’s actions in Ukraine also contravene the principles and values on which the G-7 and the G-8 operate. As such, we have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G-8 Summit in Sochi in June, until the environment comes back where the G-8 is able to have meaningful discussion.

We are united in supporting Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, and its right to choose its own future. We commit ourselves to support Ukraine in its efforts to restore unity, stability, and political and economic health to the country. To that end, we will support Ukraine’s work with the International Monetary Fund to negotiate a new program and to implement needed reforms. IMF support will be critical in unlocking additional assistance from the World Bank, other international financial institutions, the EU, and bilateral sources.
Source.

On March 03 2014 09:33 Joedaddy wrote:
I really hope the Ukranian people are doing ok. Our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone there during this difficult time. It really stinks that we have such a weak president in Obama. Putin would have never tried this with a president like George W. Bush.

On March 03 2014 09:55 Ghanburighan wrote:
Full G7 statement:

The Russians arrived at the base early in the morning with a blunt message: give up your weapons within the hour or face the consequences. But the elite Ukrainian battalion, based outside the Crimean town of Feodosia, told them politely but firmly to get lost.

"We gave an oath to the state of Ukraine, not an oath to one particular general, and certainly not one from another country," Major Rostislav Lomtev told the Guardian from inside the base. The Russians duly disappeared. But not for long. They would be back later. The resolution to this standoff remains precariously inconclusive.

As Major Lomtev in Feodosia put it: "We know a lot of them, because we have done a lot of joint exercises together and have close links with them. To be honest, I don't think they are very proud of the orders they are carrying out at the moment."

"Fuck off with your disgusting Ukraine," shouted one of the men, and she scurried off in distress. "I am so sad, so sad for Ukraine, it hurts to watch all of this, it's such an obvious provocation," she said, fighting back tears
"I know that you westerners with your disgusting media will turn everything upside down, but thank God Putin is here to save us"

One marine, carrying his kalashnikov through the grounds of the base late in the evening, did not want to be identified but was happy to share his allegiances.

Asked what would happen if, next time, the Russians came with orders rather than requests, the men claimed to have no doubt. "I am Russian myself, I was born there," he said. "But we are professional soldiers and we have given an oath of duty. We will not give up this place without a fight."

On March 03 2014 10:05 Sub40APM wrote:

Thats interesting. So German Foreign Minister is not on the same page as the German Chancellor?

On March 03 2014 10:05 Sub40APM wrote:

Thats interesting. So German Foreign Minister is not on the same page as the German Chancellor?