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On November 20 2013 03:44 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 03:41 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. He didn't kill the proscene, Blizzard did. You have no clue how much his actions caused impact in Korea. Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 03:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. I can understand that you are pretty pissed and all, but i think it is unreasonable to censor everything he is involved cause of that. It is your good right to not watch it and to whitch hunt him for the rest of your life if it's what you want, but it won't change anything. People have made way worse mistakes in their lives, if he has learned his lessons (you say no, but i don't se the connection) i think it's immature to never let it go, but whatever  1. During court cases (after being kicked out from CJ), he stated that he was Progamer (not ex-Progamer) when asked what his profession was. This was after he was permanently banned from KeSPA 2. Shortly after the case, he started streaming on afreeca. If he learned from his mistakes, he shouldn't have streamed online, especially BW (This is more of Korean culture thing, if you want to make a side-by-side comparison with other examples). 3. After streaming for few weeks, he said he will stop streaming and go study. I guess that worked out well, as he's still streaming games and talking about coming back to BW. 4. The first time he was 'back' to BW, he offered paid coaching. If he at least cared about those who he have hurt, then he shouldn't touch BW for a very long time. His actions tell me otherwise, and thus I have no reason to forgive him for time being.
What do you think his biggest fans want? To never see him again, or to have hope for his success again?
This attitude makes no sense "he shouldn't touch bw for a long time".
Your 1-4 points have absolutely no meaning.
1. Not everything was clear about him never progaming again. In his own eyes, he meant to still make a living off of gaming.
Moreover, how are you even sure this was meant maliciously, as opposed to a slip of the tongue? I tell people I'm a certain age for a few weeks after a birthday because I'm so used to it.
2. He streamed games...so what? If people didn't want to watch, they didn't have to. This is just a case of him being resentful towards the system that (rightfully) tossed him out of KeSPA. I don't even see how anyone has any right to tell him to stream or not to stream.
3. He tried something else and didn't like it. What, the SC community gets to dictate his entire life now? Why does his not liking studying have anything whatsoever to do with anything? You might as well said 2. the sky is blue !!!1!!!!!! It's a fact that means pretty much nothing.
4. I suppose it would have been better for someone with little to no education or other employable skills to just live with his parents or go on welfare...Again, what is wrong with offering services to get by? SC is the only thing he knows; why would I care that he tries to support himself rather than getting handouts or some shit min wage job? I don't see how trying to earn money (which every other progamer is doing) is somehow disrespecting anyone. Again, if people didn't want his lessons or business, nobody was making them take his coaching.
The only question in my mind is whether he is a good player. Past that, personality, past actions, whatever 'damage' he did to the community that died pretty much because of SC2 don't really matter. Kespa wants him out, fine, but this is a new tournament and I seriously, seriously doubt he'd ever pull match fixing or anything else illegit again.
I know you're gonna respond with "he destroyed the bw scene 4ever, every time his face was shown during court proceedings the e-sports elephant had a limb amputated...". I have seen this argument many times and never seen any empirical evidence for it at all. If you have some, then I'll consider this argument something apart from meaningless chatter.
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On November 21 2013 14:11 hp.Shell wrote:
@Pro-savior people:
If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?"
You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist.
Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision?
Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument.
neo)nada fighting....
No, I don't see that at all. A ton of the biggest and most attended/popular tournaments in BW history have been in the age of Flash vs Jaedong, Zero, Fantasy, etc. The OSLs and MSLs pitting FvJ were absolutely packed and hugely broadcasted. Looking back at crowd sizes in 2008, they look about the same even just months after the match-fixing scandal.
I've never seen a shred of empirical evidence (viewer numbers, ogn ratings, anything) that ever proved "savior killed bw" or even "savior substantially damaged bw".
Moreover, some idiots seem to be saying Savior intentionally destroyed BW, which is so moronic it's funny. What parasite ever wants its host to die?
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On November 21 2013 06:06 hp.Shell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:56 Hesmyrr wrote:
I am of the opinion that all pro-Savior and anti-Savior thread should automatically be closed. People who want to watch him can go watch him and vice versa, end of the story, but instead we always get this stupid cesspool whenever the topic is brought up. I agree. No more "you should" when it comes to Savior. Let people feel how they want. It's not anyone's place to argue for how someone else is supposed to feel. Edit: If you were a fan, you would already be following him. Topics like this shouldn't be necessary to alert Savior fans of his appearances. I don't really care if somebody in China feels Savior should be allowed to play, that's for them to decide.
Exactly freaking this. People are so damn self righteous and outraged at anything these days.
It's his freedom to play. It's the tournament's freedom to allow him to play (hell, they could allow map hacking too, it's up to them. Nobody would watch, but...). If you don't like it, that's your freedom not to watch. Please don't go telling the world to act differently because you don't have the ability to move on from something that happened 3 years ago and wasn't even really that important.
Nobody died. There are much worse things in the world than fixing matches for money.
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
On November 21 2013 19:42 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 06:06 hp.Shell wrote:On November 21 2013 00:56 Hesmyrr wrote:
I am of the opinion that all pro-Savior and anti-Savior thread should automatically be closed. People who want to watch him can go watch him and vice versa, end of the story, but instead we always get this stupid cesspool whenever the topic is brought up. I agree. No more "you should" when it comes to Savior. Let people feel how they want. It's not anyone's place to argue for how someone else is supposed to feel. Edit: If you were a fan, you would already be following him. Topics like this shouldn't be necessary to alert Savior fans of his appearances. I don't really care if somebody in China feels Savior should be allowed to play, that's for them to decide. Exactly freaking this. People are so damn self righteous and outraged at anything these days. It's his freedom to play. It's the tournament's freedom to allow him to play (hell, they could allow map hacking too, it's up to them. Nobody would watch, but...). If you don't like it, that's your freedom not to watch. Please don't go telling the world to act differently because you don't have the ability to move on from something that happened 3 years ago and wasn't even really that important. Nobody died. There are much worse things in the world than fixing matches for money.
While I may agree with your points and will be someone who chooses to never watch him play, I don't think that merits closing a thread. Why are you for discourage discussion and debate? If you don't enjoy it then stop at the OP and don't read through the thread. But wether I like this subject or not should not be the reason to stop other people from talking about it, understanding it, and just plain arguing about it.
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On November 21 2013 19:42 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 06:06 hp.Shell wrote:On November 21 2013 00:56 Hesmyrr wrote:
I am of the opinion that all pro-Savior and anti-Savior thread should automatically be closed. People who want to watch him can go watch him and vice versa, end of the story, but instead we always get this stupid cesspool whenever the topic is brought up. I agree. No more "you should" when it comes to Savior. Let people feel how they want. It's not anyone's place to argue for how someone else is supposed to feel. Edit: If you were a fan, you would already be following him. Topics like this shouldn't be necessary to alert Savior fans of his appearances. I don't really care if somebody in China feels Savior should be allowed to play, that's for them to decide. Exactly freaking this. People are so damn self righteous and outraged at anything these days. It's his freedom to play. It's the tournament's freedom to allow him to play (hell, they could allow map hacking too, it's up to them. Nobody would watch, but...). If you don't like it, that's your freedom not to watch. Please don't go telling the world to act differently because you don't have the ability to move on from something that happened 3 years ago and wasn't even really that important.
Nobody died. There are much worse things in the world than fixing matches for money.
Yeah, tell that to Hite Sparkyz. And don't bring the bad on the world here when this is about bw, and on bw related things, match-fixing it's one the worst things it could happen to it.
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I'd like to know how many of the negative posters here actually warmly welcomed back map hackers into the community, cheered for clan league riggers or did similar. Ironically, a few of the louder haters here did exactly that. Long live the foreign bw community.
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On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote:
What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard.
If it was definitely a only-room-for-one-rts situation, then why were WC3 and BW allowed to coexist for so long?
It seems most likely that Blizzard, in the moneygrabbing days of early SC2, was going to take enough from KeSPA's BW, that was the real economic problem for the game. Other games would continue without the blizzard tax, and the money situation for them would remain the same, all else equal.
Savior just seemed to strike at the worst possible time. I was a fan of go.go and luxury, and look at where Sparkyz ended after the incident -- they were dissolved.
As best I can sketch it, the (very abridged) timeline is this:
May 2007 - announcement: SC2 development starting
Feb 2010 - SC2 begins closed-beta
May 2010 - rumors of match-fixing confirmed true.
July 2010 - SC2 release
Aug/Oct 2010 - eSTRO dissolves, IEG cites a move away from esports.
Oct 2010 - Sparkyz merges with CJ
Aug 2011 - FOX disbands shortly after NaDa's retirement
Sep 2011 - OZ disbands in favor of physical sports.
Feb 2012 - MBC disbands as proleague shifts to SC2 hybrd.
You could argue either way, that SC2 ultimately killed BW, or that the match-fixing problems created a bad image for sponsors who then decided to stop sponsoring BW (some halting esports sponsorship altogether). Once some of the brands decided to leave, others such as FOX and OZ seemed to wait while their star players NaDa and Jaedong, among others, continued to play. But when the SC2 discussions were more heated, and FOX retired NaDa, FOX decided to disband, leaving OZ an easier decision to let go even holding on to Jaedong. OZ is probably the biggest indicator of an economic problem, but the quick disband after FOX suggests otherwise - that SC2's involvement meant the end of BW sponsorship - and esports sponsorship, for that matter (for OZ).
Ultimately it was probably the fact that SC2 was named starcraft and not warcraft 4, that dealt the final blow to the pro BW scene in Korea. But when you have team sponsors that are just kinda playing along anyway, like OZ and ACE, and when you combine that with two other disbands that could be argued as being a result of the scandal (Sparkyz and eSTRO), then it all crumbles.
The issue is rather complicated, but savior's and others' involvement in the BW shaming certainly played a key factor.
What if blizzard arranged the match fixing scandal to give the final blow to BW and pay savior and his crew $$$ in return?
I wouldn't be surprised by that.
User was warned for this post
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Ok, I'm so tired of all the misinformed people here and the ones that presume having such an objective view of the issue that they feel enlightened to tell how wrong or how overzealous people can be about the matter, when they actually lack the complete scope of the situation to even begin to grasp it.
I would have a really hard time believing someone defending savior if they ever really considered the whole picture and thought about all the consequences and analyses his whole attitude. I presume that people just defend him because they lack the brain to think what match-fixing really means and they only see all these hatred towards the match fixers as a rolling snowball, getting bigger just because people have reasons to hate, then the others are just joining to the hate train. But they are the cool sheep of the herd, and have to stand out somehow and tell the world how wrong they are. Lacking any knowledge, understanding of the situation or valid points it's absolutely not necessary for this endeavour, it seems.
First things first, understand what match-fixing means. Pro-gamers are in the business for the competition. Competition consists on two, or more individuals, giving out their guts and squeezing their abilities to the maximum to best the opposing ones. For that and to maintain their skill level up to the people on the top, they need to practice. A lot. This means mostly giving up their lives in favour of the game, and training, thinking and breathing about the game. It's quite the sacrifice if you ask me.
Then comes the match-fixing factor. What does it mean all the effort paid when people are just giving up games for their profit? What's the point on winning a game, giving the best out of you against an opponent that doesn't even bothered to win? How do you feel that after hard weeks of training, play and finally achieving a victory, afterwards knowing it was all meaningless, as the opponent just throwed the match even before it started? Match-fixing totally pisses on the dreams and hopes of newcomers and disrespects all the established players, and most importantly it's a clear fuck you to the team that pay them and provides the environment for them to keep up with the rest.
What about the fan view point? How do you feel after cheering for your favourite player through all the game and realizing he was not even trying? It's just ridiculous that some people can ignore or not think about all this.
Savior might have been young, but no doubt that as a progamer, he was no stranger to all the meaning of competition and all the points above. Youth doesn't mean lack of wits or foreseeing ability. Doing what he was doing had most than obvious consequences, if caught. Obviously he isn't stupid, he didn't want to get caught, but still he surely knew the consequences, and still kept on. The consequences would not hit only him, but all the industry, and yet he kept on. What you can take of that? That once he stopped winning and getting money, he didn't give a shit about the whole industry, his team mates, his friends, his coaches, the game he presumably "loved". He only wanted more money. This is the guy you're defending, a selfish prick. But now it's cool, because holding hatred for more than 3 years it's such fanaticism...
He shat on everything his seniors had established. After years of precarious conditions for the teams, they passion for the game and the effort paid off and sponsors stepped in to the scene. Really on that point can't elaborate more than that is explained on this video, which it appears in every savior discussion and seems like so few actually take the time to watch it. + Show Spoiler +
He jeopardized the future that naive youngsters invested playing non-stop the game while putting at risk their studies and their future. Seriously... I don't think there's a need to bring up more to make people at least a bit more aware of the reasons of the hatred.
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On November 22 2013 00:53 Operations wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote:
What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard.
If it was definitely a only-room-for-one-rts situation, then why were WC3 and BW allowed to coexist for so long?
It seems most likely that Blizzard, in the moneygrabbing days of early SC2, was going to take enough from KeSPA's BW, that was the real economic problem for the game. Other games would continue without the blizzard tax, and the money situation for them would remain the same, all else equal.
Savior just seemed to strike at the worst possible time. I was a fan of go.go and luxury, and look at where Sparkyz ended after the incident -- they were dissolved.
As best I can sketch it, the (very abridged) timeline is this:
May 2007 - announcement: SC2 development starting
Feb 2010 - SC2 begins closed-beta
May 2010 - rumors of match-fixing confirmed true.
July 2010 - SC2 release
Aug/Oct 2010 - eSTRO dissolves, IEG cites a move away from esports.
Oct 2010 - Sparkyz merges with CJ
Aug 2011 - FOX disbands shortly after NaDa's retirement
Sep 2011 - OZ disbands in favor of physical sports.
Feb 2012 - MBC disbands as proleague shifts to SC2 hybrd.
You could argue either way, that SC2 ultimately killed BW, or that the match-fixing problems created a bad image for sponsors who then decided to stop sponsoring BW (some halting esports sponsorship altogether). Once some of the brands decided to leave, others such as FOX and OZ seemed to wait while their star players NaDa and Jaedong, among others, continued to play. But when the SC2 discussions were more heated, and FOX retired NaDa, FOX decided to disband, leaving OZ an easier decision to let go even holding on to Jaedong. OZ is probably the biggest indicator of an economic problem, but the quick disband after FOX suggests otherwise - that SC2's involvement meant the end of BW sponsorship - and esports sponsorship, for that matter (for OZ).
Ultimately it was probably the fact that SC2 was named starcraft and not warcraft 4, that dealt the final blow to the pro BW scene in Korea. But when you have team sponsors that are just kinda playing along anyway, like OZ and ACE, and when you combine that with two other disbands that could be argued as being a result of the scandal (Sparkyz and eSTRO), then it all crumbles.
The issue is rather complicated, but savior's and others' involvement in the BW shaming certainly played a key factor. What if blizzard arranged the match fixing scandal to give the final blow to BW and pay savior and his crew $$$ in return? I wouldn't be surprised by that.
Really? lol
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On November 21 2013 19:37 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 14:11 hp.Shell wrote:
@Pro-savior people:
If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?"
You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist.
Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision?
Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument.
neo)nada fighting.... No, I don't see that at all. A ton of the biggest and most attended/popular tournaments in BW history have been in the age of Flash vs Jaedong, Zero, Fantasy, etc. The OSLs and MSLs pitting FvJ were absolutely packed and hugely broadcasted. Looking back at crowd sizes in 2008, they look about the same even just months after the match-fixing scandal. I've never seen a shred of empirical evidence (viewer numbers, ogn ratings, anything) that ever proved "savior killed bw" or even "savior substantially damaged bw". Moreover, some idiots seem to be saying Savior intentionally destroyed BW, which is so moronic it's funny. What parasite ever wants its host to die?
Pro BW didn't die because the fans left, it died because the financial backing disappeared. If you bothered to watch the subbed episode of After Talk where Kingdom, Kim Carrier, and Um JaeKyung discuss match fixing you would have realized this. Match fixing destroyed the reputation of the competition just like it's done to the Serie A and other leagues/teams around the world.
The sponsors of the three leagues before match fixing, and in their final seasons:
Proleague: Shinhan Bank -> SK Planet
OSL: Korean Air -> Tving
MSL: Hana Bank -> ABC Mart
You don't need to be an expert on S. Korean business to see the downward slope.
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On November 21 2013 13:48 OpticalShot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 11:29 miercat wrote:On November 20 2013 14:45 lemmata wrote:On November 20 2013 11:34 miercat wrote:On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote:
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known.
OH. MY. GOD. ... Is there source for this information? Yes. See this video at 27 minutes. It is in Korean, but it is as Hesmyrr wrote. I appreciate the link, although unfortunately I can't communicate in Korean. Do they say why the MBC Director told them to stop the special events (presumably to use as an excuse to ultimately shut the channel down?) - In other words, why did the director originally decide/want to shut down MBC Game Channel, even if it was relatively profitable still? Or, is there any other critical/less known (so to speak) information in this link? Fellow TL translator jumping in action here! Right at 27min LSW starts talking about MBC.Game Key points (too lazy to do word for word): - MBC Game did have internal issues and difficulties but those weren't really major factors in the switch to music channel - The dude in charge (President/CEO/Director/whatever) who made the switch to the music channel is in USA now (something overseas MBC work) - The financial situation wasn't too bad for MBC Game, in fact the channel could have continued, while majority of other MBC sub-channels like MBC Life MBC Everyone MBC Drama MBC Whatever were doing worse financially (most of those losing money instead of earning money) in fact LSW initially thought after the music switch rumours that MBC Life would be axed - LSW thinks if MBC Game endured that period of difficulty then it would be very well off now with new popular games like LoL - The switch to music kind of came suddenly after that prez/director saw a couple music-based variety shows (I Am Singer, SuperStar K, etc.) get high ratings and went like o shiez music is da way lets dip into that shit - Actually more details, the director had some unknown personal vendetta or some shit to kill MBC Game and push his MBC Music idea so he intentionally cancelled a bunch of profitable shit from MBC Game then was like SEE TOLD U MBC GAME LOSING MONEY and then they axed it. Yeah LSW said it a tad more mildly but that's the gist of it.At 30 min and on: - Who will fill MBC Game's shoes? Will someone eventually fill those shoes? LSW hopes that the all the players in the game broadcasting will continue to evolve, including cable (OGN) and internet (Afreeca, etc.) - LSW's fan cafe and how he's sorry to the fans because he doesn't actively participate in it Meh I think that's enough useful stuff? I'll actually watch the whole thing now seems like interesting personal talk with LSW. *edit: on second view, made a few corrections
Thanks for the translation : ) Seems like many useful stuff.
I had a feeling the reason was going to be complete BS (given that MBC Game was a relatively successful channel) and apparently it was.
It is good that the director is no longer working for MBC (maybe a more reasonable position can surface: take out MBC Life, and bring back MBC Game), but he can go to hell (if it was true).  And consider, the channel itself is an inanimate entity - if you have a vendetta, at the very least, find a more direct way to pursue it. Fucking asshole.
Does anyone know if he got fired/resigned due to backlash from this decision? Was there any backlash from Korean fans, based on this information being relatively known in Korea (from shows like this)?
Thanks, again.
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Cut the crap and gimme a savior stream so i can watch his awesome z v p again :/
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I can't tell what's worse. The hysterical scapegoating or the asinine apologia. Both of them rely on so much speculative bullshit that it's just meaningless. I honestly wouldn't take anyone's accounts seriously about this topic on this forum from anyone except Rekrul and Sea.
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On November 22 2013 03:55 koreasilver wrote:
I can't tell what's worse. The hysterical scapegoating or the asinine apologia. Both of them rely on so much speculative bullshit that it's just meaningless. I honestly wouldn't take anyone's accounts seriously about this topic on this forum from anyone except Rekrul and Sea.
Well, according to this logic, the opinion you just stated is meaningless, as would be Rekrul's and Sea's accounts. In short, poor logic, and a poor opinion.
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So basically it was a perfect storm for BW's birth as much it was for BW's demise.
This shit is better than TV. Seriously, if no one is stealing this script then its too bad for you.
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On November 22 2013 06:47 miercat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 03:55 koreasilver wrote:
I can't tell what's worse. The hysterical scapegoating or the asinine apologia. Both of them rely on so much speculative bullshit that it's just meaningless. I honestly wouldn't take anyone's accounts seriously about this topic on this forum from anyone except Rekrul and Sea. Well, according to this logic, the opinion you just stated is meaningless, as would be Rekrul's and Sea's accounts. In short, poor logic, and a poor opinion.
Yeah, except that Rekrul actually had connections with people that were in the thick of it, and Sea was actually a progamer inside the MBC team and thus they actually had some direct access to the truth. Rekrul was the one that broke the matchfixing story to TL before it actually became an official story and at the time MOST of the posters on TL thought Rekrul was just bullshitting. So no, there is no break in logic or opinion since these two actually had access to things of substance instead of relying pretty much entirely on fucking nonsense speculation that would make North American conspiracy theorists proud. They weren't fed secondary narrative accounts off of crackpot Korean netizen blogs.
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On November 22 2013 07:32 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 06:47 miercat wrote:On November 22 2013 03:55 koreasilver wrote:
I can't tell what's worse. The hysterical scapegoating or the asinine apologia. Both of them rely on so much speculative bullshit that it's just meaningless. I honestly wouldn't take anyone's accounts seriously about this topic on this forum from anyone except Rekrul and Sea. Well, according to this logic, the opinion you just stated is meaningless, as would be Rekrul's and Sea's accounts. In short, poor logic, and a poor opinion. Yeah, except that Rekrul actually had connections with people that were in the thick of it, and Sea was actually a progamer inside the MBC team and thus they actually had some direct access to the truth. Rekrul was the one that broke the matchfixing story to TL before it actually became an official story and at the time MOST of the posters on TL thought Rekrul was just bullshitting. So no, there is no break in logic or opinion since these two actually had access to things of substance instead of relying pretty much entirely on fucking nonsense speculation that would make North American conspiracy theorists proud. They weren't fed secondary narrative accounts off of crackpot Korean netizen blogs.
Fair enough. But whether there is a logical break or not, turns out to be inconsequential, if the original premise (that general analysis of the situation necessarily relies on speculation, and that Sea's and Rekrul's accounts are necessarily any more meaningful than anyone else's) is not accurate:
Personally I have not read, nor heard of any secondary accounts of Korean netizen blogs, however, there have been a number of statements from individuals within the industry (with direct access to the truth - presumably as meaningful or more meaningful in this situation than Sea or Rekrul), and a number of relevant documented occurrences, that have been quite concrete, and as far as I know, have not been disputed. As far as situations go, it seems fairly open, and at the very least - sufficiently open to make the only reasonable conclusion. Unless Sea, Rekrul, have a huge bombshell information, that no one else knows, or that no one else has leaked in all this time, anything more that they know, will not be of any real significance. There are already enough commonly-known sufficiently-powerful, and apparently undisputed facts, to make the only reasonable conclusion.
I'm not exactly sure what you know, or don't know, or what you understand or don't understand, but again, as far as situations in life go, this one is very likely more than clear enough(with all the relevant knowledge, and the ability to understand it).
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LOL, so Savior failed to qualify through the online tournament, but the sponsor wanted him so badly, he invited him to play in the offline 2v2 tournament anyway. They will probably pay for travel and hotel accommodations. This is fun.
There are eight teams in total, six of which qualified through various tournaments.
One team with Beast and Pix were invited as special Korean team.
The other team is 334 (Chinese) and Savior. 334 is sort of an SC celeb in China being very good at 2v2 and currently doing some commentating with PLU and SCNTV (event host).
1v1 players will be determined in a few days. There will probably also be eight, with four qualifying from various online tournaments, two invited Koreans, and two special seed designations by the sponsor.
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someone here failed to account that SC2 failed in korea .. lol
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EPT
