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On November 21 2013 00:56 Hesmyrr wrote:
I am of the opinion that all pro-Savior and anti-Savior thread should automatically be closed. People who want to watch him can go watch him and vice versa, end of the story, but instead we always get this stupid cesspool whenever the topic is brought up.
I agree.
No more "you should" when it comes to Savior. Let people feel how they want. It's not anyone's place to argue for how someone else is supposed to feel.
Edit: If you were a fan, you would already be following him. Topics like this shouldn't be necessary to alert Savior fans of his appearances. I don't really care if somebody in China feels Savior should be allowed to play, that's for them to decide.
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On November 21 2013 02:11 Lazuras wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 06:27 sheaRZerg wrote:
I started watching a little bit before the match-fixing scandal, and my impression of the decline of the bw scene (as well as the teams disbanding and MBC switching) happened a decent time after that had died down. I had also thought it was much more a result of politics involving the new games. I would love to see some numbers regarding the viewership, to see if this was the case or my remembering the timeframe is just screwed up.
I am not saying the Savior should be forgiven, but the assertion that he somehow single-handedly killed broodwar seems farfetched, and short-sighted argument. In my opinion its a harmful attitude in general.
In the aftermath Kespa actually started taking actions that would have counteracted match fixing (for which I seem to remember hearing accounts that activities had been going on before saviors involvement). Wouldn't it be more productive to learn from the flaws in the original system? If the bw scene is going to recover and grow again I think it really needs to become more self aware that there was blame to spread around the scene for those events. If one bad egg can really kill such a long running organization, there are surely other problems that need to be looked at.
This may be an extremely western attitude, but I also feel the fact that Savior keeps sticking around is testament to him genuinely caring about bw. If the hatred against him is as intense in Korea as it is on teamliquid (and since everyone always refers to culture when discussing savior, i assume it must be even stronger) wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just leave? Literally anything he does that involves the game will send people into a rage. Should he remain banned from Korean tournaments? Yes. But I for one can't get behind this anger that he is wrong for some individuals still wanting to support him and see him play. Its an extremely prevalent, toxic attitude, and reason itself to not want to associate with the scene.
edit: I'd just like to add that I hope there isnt a backlash against movie...this seems like a good opportunity, when there are so few for ex-kespa pros at the moment. You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen. Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale.when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic.
Does not compute. If you had actually followed the scene, you would knew how many innovations occured in all kind of matchups before the switch to SC2 finally hit. Hive Tech ZvZ, Queens in ZvT, the glimpse of Bio in TvP, the resurgence of Mass Wraiths in TvT and so on..
Also huge props for lemmata, you have succesfully convinced me Savior is a scum and shouldn't be affilated with any kind of BW activity once again. Hope community won't abandon Movie if he had to play (and win, supposedly) him.
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On November 21 2013 06:04 OpticalShot wrote:
Holy shit people just watch the damn guy if you like him and don't if you don't.
Also these Savior threads are nice fresh reminders on how little people care about the scene and lack the ability to accept credible information. Give SNM and his statements some respect, he has worked for OGN and talked to a lot of the professionals in the Korean eSports scene.
But but he disagrees with me, I have to ignore and belittle whats he says in order to feel correct about how I fell. You would think a community that goes back as far as this one does would be a but better about arguing on the internet, but I am clearly proof that this is not true.
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To the generic: "Fuck the system, forgive the poor guy" fan.
People forget about downside of being idol (Savior was one even past his prime), you can do more but also you can do less. Don't go "fuck the system", this is look, it's reality.
Savior's influence didn't end at audience it influenced the whole industry. What's worse it was that status which was probably 2nd to Boxer in the industry that made him persuasive toward other players. Not only he exerted his social status of being older (important cultural part in Korea) on his colleagues but also the one of "mentorship".
After all he was the one that brought a fresh air to the BW professional gameplay by reinventing ZvX MUs, giving a birth to a new era of Macro/strategic gameplay which in the end was what shaped the 2nd half of professional BW. The dozen of Zerg champions all share the element of Savior.
This is however not an argument that erase the doubt, oh no quite the contrary. It was him that put all of that value... all of that influence on the scale. This is the responsibility of idols, and Savior was a great idol, and the fact that he risked all of that is immense. It practically says what it meant to him which is clearly not as much as for his fans.
Even after the deed was done, the remorse didnt happen, whole industry, his colleagues, his FANS that he lied to, weren't even graced by a true "sorry".
You loved Savior more than BW, and i can understand that. But i'll just say that, it was a one way ticket. He didnt give a damn about you, his true fan.
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ugh, not Savior again pls? If people wanna watch Savior, let them watch Savior. If not, not. All this talk and argumentation, especially after the Xy time, is a bit hyperbole to me.
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On November 21 2013 06:39 Cele wrote:
ugh, not Savior again pls? If people wanna watch Savior, let them watch Savior. If not, not. All this talk and argumentation, especially after the Xy time, is a bit hyperbole to me.
Show a little bit more respect please, you are before the eldest recurring argument here on TL.
Far older than the impudent little sc2 vs bw quarrel newcomers sometimes complain about.
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My opinion on this matter is based upon one thing:
Can he or can he not still hang with the top level players?
If he still shows great plays and high level games, then I support his endeavor. If not, then I'll be just upset that the Chinese invited someone whose skills aren't up par.
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On November 21 2013 01:31 HollowLord wrote:
Fuck tabloids, fuck haters, fuck witch-hunts, fuck flamewar threads, fuck censorship, fuck scapegoating, and fuck Kespa.
Let the man play. Just because Kespa, an organization infamously rigid, uncaring, and demanding about their players, condemns a 22 year old kid to public shaming and a lifetime of humiliation doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play the game he loves.
And fuck anyone who says otherwise.
That is a lot of fucking.
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[/QUOTE]
Does not compute. If you had actually followed the scene, you would knew how many innovations occured in all kind of matchups before the switch to SC2 finally hit. Hive Tech ZvZ, Queens in ZvT, the glimpse of Bio in TvP, the resurgence of Mass Wraiths in TvT and so on..
Also huge props for lemmata, you have successfully convinced me Savior is a scum and shouldn't be affilated with any kind of BW activity once again. Hope community won't abandon Movie if he had to play (and win, supposedly) him.[/QUOTE]
ok, im giving up now.. once again iam talking about why it died, all these innovations you speak of is why bw survived for 12 years, but it pretty much stopped at the end because almost everything had been tried. AND PEOPLE GOT TIRED OF IT, and THATS why attendance dropped to the point that it was no longer financially worthwhile.
I mean really, i know there is massive amounts of people on the internet (and irl) who doesn't think things through before they speak but ffs... you read what you want to read and then pick out the part you want to bitch about, missing the point entirely.
Anyway, iam done now, i aint got the time to explain what should be obvious.
BW died cause the lack of Attendance at tournaments and ratings on television, figure out your own reasons case they are the only ones you will listen to.
and Savior was fucking boss during his prime, match fixing or not, his games 2006, early 2007, showcased a period of utter zerg dominance, never achieved before or after and that could only be achieved by him.
Now all you people who doesn't care about the point are gonna bitch about how much better jaedong was ecs ecs..
the POINT however is still that Savior was much more DOMINANT.
I'm out, and let your bitching commence.
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@Lazuras
What else did you expect looking around BW forum all out of sudden? Let us delusional elitists bitch and please don't come back.
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On November 21 2013 02:02 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 11:56 endy wrote:
Meh, I wanna go take a look, haven't found the address yet.
edit: offline finals are going to be played there: 上海市瞿溪路988号汇景生活广场B2层
edit: Alright so Savior vs Movie is actually a wildcard match to determine which of the two will qualify the offline finals in Shanghai in 10 days. Also it says time 19:00, but that's Chinese time, so for everyone planning to watch, that's 20:00 KST. Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 17:58 Cambium wrote:
Okay, some actual information on the tournament:
Savior and Movie were invited to play in the losers bracket of the online stage of the tournament, so they will play against everyone who's been eliminated from the tournament (I'm not sure from what stage, could be 37, 17, 8, or just 2 players).
The winner of this tournament will join the three players who have advanced from the winners' bracket (so a total of four players) to play in the main event, which is the offline tournament held in Shanghai.
The offline tournament will supposedly have eight total participants:
3 from the online tournament
3 Korean players (I'm guessing Scan, Beast, and someone else)
2 players who were eliminated picked by the sponsor
I'm not really sure where Savior and Movie fit TBH. The joy of Chinese tournament is that organization is typically a huge mess.
Both Savior and Movie were invited to participate by the sole sponsor of the tournament (offering total prize of 0.54 MILLION rmb or US$90,000). Aren't these two posts contradicting each other? One claims that only one of them will travel to China, another claims that both will. Also I wanted to note that it took me five minutes to find this info in this thread because the vast majority of posts are about stuff that have nothing to do at all with the tournament itself...
This thread was terribly derailed.
I don't think the posts contradicted each other. One of them will travel to China and participate in the offline tournament.
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On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged!
if you think like that about him for a mistake he commited, then you are worst than him
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They played in the 2v2 qualifiers yesterday
Savior paired up with Metis (don't know him), and
Move paired up with By.Hero
Both teams were eventually eliminated, and did not qualify for the 2v2 offline tournament.
I think Movie and Savior will have a go in the 1v1 online qualifiers as well, which is happening today.
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all those immature blind savi0r haters. i dont deny how badly he hurt the scene. BUT HE WAS A FUCKING KID. broodwar pros are fucking kids no matter how old they are. they speak like 10 year olds and think like 14year olds.
how can a fucking kid not be allowed to do a mistake in his life????no matter how hard the mistake was....A FUCKING KID, a kid that knew nothing about life, blinded by money and success. driven into that horrible mistake. everybody fucking deserves a second cahnce. but it seems not in the oh so elite bw-scene. because he ruined your precious precious broodwar-scene you dont care about such things. burn him, hang bla bla bla bla. i know its horrible what happened, but fucking seriously grow up! everywhere everybody deserves a second chance, but not here, right? holy fuck
edit: like many others said. if you dont wanna watch him, dont fucking watch him and stfu
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if you think like that about him for a mistake he commited, then you are worst than him
why isnt this guy banned already?
Sigh. By Fenris' fangs, Pauline was being sarcastic!
He was parodying the hating attitude that some people have.
Cursed romanians.
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On November 21 2013 09:59 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +if you think like that about him for a mistake he commited, then you are worst than him
Sigh. By Fenris' fangs, Pauline was being sarcastic! He was parodying the hating attitude that some people have. Cursed romanians.
edited my post. didnt check the link below his post
sorry
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Russian Federation3339 Posts
Someone said "forgive and forget."
I forgive, but I cannot keep forgetting when I see Savior openly playing (and profiting) the game I love, especially because he is related to the downfall of the whole BW scene. For this, I cannot support him. Maybe if he transitioned to a different life, I would fully support him as a person, but I cannot watch him play as a competitive pro-gamer and support him in the slightest.
Someone said (to BisuDagger) "if it were Bisu, you would forget."
If it were Bisu, I would be so heartbroken that I would initially stop watching the game (I barely watched (or just followed through battle reports) OSL's after Bisu got eliminated... so not having him in the scene, I wouldn't watch). Then if he returned to BW in any form, I would be reminded of the pain he caused me, and I wouldn't be able to watch him without feeling anger and remorse.
There are so many more posts that I can respond to, but I'd rather not~ There are my two cents.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51708 Posts
eh I really doubt that savior's level of play would even be entertaining after all this time anyway.
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wow these Chinese businessman try to attract viewers through controversy
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51708 Posts
On November 21 2013 10:38 illusiongamer wrote:
wow these Chinese businessman try to attract viewers through controversy
all publicity is good publicity I guess.
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EPT
