EPTMovie is also playing
20th Nov 2013 19:00 local time.
Source:
http://www.wfbrood.com/xingji/xingjibisai/xingji_75040.html
Savior and Movie invited to SCNTV's BW tournament
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forumtext
575 Posts
Movie is also playing 20th Nov 2013 19:00 local time. Source: http://www.wfbrood.com/xingji/xingjibisai/xingji_75040.html | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1667 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6504 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1436 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:36 JustPassingBy wrote: Does invited mean that they got an invitation or they actually agreed on participating? Can't wait to see them in action! Not that I know anything about the event but Movie often plays with Chinese and he's talked about playing/even going to China, so I wouldn't be surprised. Also idk why anyone would announce this if they merely invited someone with no confirmation. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4719 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:26 forumtext wrote: Movie is also playing I surely hope not!! On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote: What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! Hypocrite much? | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Romania more? | ||
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BearAttack
33 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote: What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. User was warned for this post | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. Negro please -.- + Show Spoiler + I feel obliged to point out that he was sarcastic. He was parodying the attitude that some have towards sAviOr. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote: How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote: He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
In that link, there was the following quote: "match fixing scandal is an issue that can only get older. Brood war pro scene is no more, is there anymore valuable reasons to not change? Since TL allowed article such as "Before the Fall" that could only increase the number of sAviOr's fans..." Is there a link to this "before the fall" article? I searched, but did not find it. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
Man savior playing again :/ | ||
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Harajuku
150 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote: How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. Smells like hyperbolic sarcasm imo. If not, yeah, dumb and unreasonable post. | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote: Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. He didn't kill the proscene, Blizzard Activision did. People moved on. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote: Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. I can understand that you are pretty pissed and all, but i think it is unreasonable to censor everything he is involved cause of that. It is your good right to not watch it and to whitch hunt him for the rest of your life if it's what you want, but it won't change anything. People have made far worse mistakes in their lives, if he has learned his lessons (you say no, but i don't se the connection) i think it's immature to never let it go, but whatever  | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:41 ForTehDarkseid wrote: He didn't kill the proscene, Blizzard did. You have no clue how much his actions caused impact in Korea. On November 20 2013 03:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I can understand that you are pretty pissed and all, but i think it is unreasonable to censor everything he is involved cause of that. It is your good right to not watch it and to whitch hunt him for the rest of your life if it's what you want, but it won't change anything. People have made way worse mistakes in their lives, if he has learned his lessons (you say no, but i don't se the connection) i think it's immature to never let it go, but whatever 1. During court cases (after being kicked out from CJ), he stated that he was Progamer (not ex-Progamer) when asked what his profession was. This was after he was permanently banned from KeSPA 2. Shortly after the case, he started streaming on afreeca. If he learned from his mistakes, he shouldn't have streamed online, especially BW (This is more of Korean culture thing, if you want to make a side-by-side comparison with other examples). 3. After streaming for few weeks, he said he will stop streaming and go study. I guess that worked out well, as he's still streaming games and talking about coming back to BW. 4. The first time he was 'back' to BW, he offered paid coaching. If he at least cared about those who he have hurt, then he shouldn't touch BW for a very long time. His actions tell me otherwise, and thus I have no reason to forgive him for time being. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:31 ImbaTosS wrote: savior...? Can't wait for the reaction to that.. Can't wait for the GAMES ! MAESTRO FIGHTING ! | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:44 supernovamaniac wrote: You have no clue how much his actions caused impact in Korea. They impacted Korea a lot, but he was a young guy who made a bad choice, eventually people are either going to have to forget about it and move on or forgive him. Punishing someone for something like that for the rest of their entire life is just ridiculous when you compare it to some of the other things that go on. Saviour made mistakes sure, so did Movie, I think it's time people stop holding grudges and realise that maybe amazing players like them at the time are still human like the rest of us. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
I'm excited to see Movie play the Chinese too, will we be able to watch casts and FPVs? | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:44 supernovamaniac wrote: You have no clue how much his actions caused impact in Korea. I have, I just don't have negative feelings towards him. Like, you know, should Blizzard have some piece of responsibility or something? Yet people continue to donate them far more money than Maestro has earned during his entire career. And I don't blame them, like you tend to do. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:48 Qikz wrote: They impacted Korea a lot, but he was a young guy who made a bad choice, eventually people are either going to have to forget about it and move on or forgive him. Punishing someone for something like that for the rest of their entire life is just ridiculous when you compare it to some of the other things that go on. Saviour made mistakes sure, so did Movie, I think it's time people stop holding grudges and realise that maybe amazing players like them at the time are still human like the rest of us. Like I said, I forgive those who accept what they have done, admit their mistakes, learn from their mistakes and then move on. While he did admit his mistakes, his actions never reflected that he 'became a better person' by learning from his mistakes. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:51 supernovamaniac wrote: Like I said, I forgive those who accept what they have done, admit their mistakes, learn from their mistakes and then move on. While he did admit his mistakes, his actions never reflected that he 'became a better person' by learning from his mistakes. I don't see how playing broodwar again has anything to do with the actual match fixing. Would you be ok with him streaming other games instead? I don't understand it^^ | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't see how playing broodwar again has anything to do with the actual match fixing. Would you be ok with him streaming other games instead? I don't understand it^^ I wouldn't mind if he streamed other games instead. What he caused in the Korean scene.... is unspeakable to a point where the people in Korean e-Sports scene (as in, those running the leagues) do not even want to say his name. Starleague was started by people who had crazy idea that video game can become sports. While their idea was crazy to others at the time, they had the passion. Their passion led to MSL/OSL and Proleague. What this match fixer did was bringing down everyone's effort for past ~10 years. To me, him streaming BW was a direct 'fuck you' to those who truly care about e-Sports. Many fans were hurt from the incident (by the fact that their idol was too selfish to even think about match fixing), sponsorships dropped, and a television studio (MBCGame) shut down partially, if not entirely, due to match fixing scandal. However, instead of reflecting on his mistakes as Progamer, he's still finding ways to make money through a game he helped destroy. To the e-Sports personnel, the players, and the fans, we pretty much received the biggest middle finger. While people in esports were having a hard time keeping the scene together and make sure the entire scene does not collapse, Savior only thought about himself and not the pain he caused for many others who loved esports. That's why most people didn't like it when Savior started streaming. They especially did not like it when Savior tried to do paid tutoring in BW. Oh btw, this is where the 'Afreeca BW streamers are shit' comes from. A place where players break their idolistic character for money. A place where criminals (yes, Savior is a criminal) can still make money from things that they helped destroy in first place. And for those who are saying it was minor mistake, you guys are just lucky that they held OSL and Proleague after the match fixing incident. From what I've heard, if they didn't develop such infracture before match fixing happened (KeSPA, 12 teams, Proleague, OSL/MSL, and other things behind the scenes), it would've been over in 2010. | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:58 Disregard wrote: Westerners don't understand the culture. Tend to forgive for such minor mistakes. Its hard for them to comprehend without saying its ridiculous and get over it. From what I heard, Korean culture is much more punishing in these cases than the western. Yet, China is inviting Savior to play so it would appear they don't care that much. If someone could explain this to me, the confused westerner, that'd be cool. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5111 Posts
iirc he also said something like "how much longer can we play 2d games? people have to move on" or some shit talking about how bw was going to die. Savior can play bw and stream it in my eyes if he wants to, but just way too consistently he keeps trying to suck everything he can from his remaining fans. It's the tone of the thing: yes, these guys are people who are young with no education and are trying to make a living, but there is a difference from trying to make a living to trying to extort everything you can while it lasts. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24082 Posts
It's a shame he hasn't transitioned into other things and thus this is all avoided. Perhaps he loves the game still, perhaps it's simply his best income option at this time, but yeah it does leave a bad taste. For all the talk of the unforgiving Korean culture, is it not Koreans by and large who will donate to him on Afreeca? | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:23 Wombat_NI wrote: Hm, tis a tough one. It's a shame he hasn't transitioned into other things and thus this is all avoided. Perhaps he loves the game still, perhaps it's simply his best income option at this time, but yeah it does leave a bad taste. For all the talk of the unforgiving Korean culture, is it not Koreans by and large who will donate to him on Afreeca? The majority don't. Rather, they avoid him. | ||
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mainerd
United States347 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:48 traceurling wrote: People change. Savior definitely hurt the scene but everything can't be pinned on him. I'm of the opinion that he is a different person than he was a few years earlier. And how exactly did this opinion form? I assume you speak Korean and you watched a lot of his streams and are following the guy closely. You must have been following him closely before as well. Has he made a public apology or done anything else positive that you could point out here for the rest of us? I'm asking because all I ever hear about Savior is the bad stuff. Then there's a few defenders but they never come with anything concrete and good to say about the guy. Instead they just give random statements like "people change" "time to forgive" "good now" "stop hate". If you want the rest of us to believe he's changed and deserves another chance why don't you try a bit harder? If he's changed then that's something he would be working very hard on, right? Anything at all you could give us to back your opinion and support the guy? | ||
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dOTY
Germany483 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:12 GeckoXp wrote: thrilled to see the zerg playing again. tard User was warned for this post | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Despite what he did, he was and probably still is the best zerg to ever grace Starcraft. Jaedong was amazing as well, but Savior took a race nobody really understood at all and he dominated. If I think of Broodwar and think of Zerg, I think of Saviour, July and Jaedong, despite what happened. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known. Still doesn't change Savior nearly killed the Korean e-sported industry and is unrepentant about it. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote: Oi, you don't see people acting this angrily toward other match-fixers besides that wife beater. We are not forgiving Savior because he is not convincing me he has changed for the better. Ignoring his prominent role in match-fixing, let me list all the dumb things Savior has done since his debut in Afreeca, besides his general unrepetent attitude:
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known. Still doesn't change Savior nearly killed the Korean e-sported industry. And I would like to argue that those special events were shut down because of match fixing. Or rather, match fixing had something to do with MBCGame shutting down Source: http://www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=talk_gossip&wr_id=441361 You're correct on the money part. They had income. Rather, the producers of this particular show explains that its the other factors that forced MBCGame to shut down, as they were doing well financially. | ||
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Mewka
Poland1458 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
The guy was at least 21 when he made his decision, he knew fully well what he was doing. Matchfixing (of a different sort) shut down WC3 in Korea, so it's not like there wasn't any precedent either. Just read the Boxer and Savior interview, and feel the disgust afterwards .. fuck him | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:29 Stratos wrote: I'm asking because all I ever hear about Savior is the bad stuff. Then there's a few defenders but they never come with anything concrete and good to say about the guy. Instead they just give random statements like "people change" "time to forgive" "good now" "stop hate". It should be enough for reasonable people. Look how big part of e-Sports community moved to LoL after the death of BW proscene | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:45 ForTehDarkseid wrote: It should be enough for reasonable people. Look how big part of e-Sports community moved to LoL after the death of BW proscene Where does LoL come in to this argument? | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:46 supernovamaniac wrote: What does LoL have to do with this argument? It represents everything BW isn't. It means people change with time or something. Nobody who cared about BW scene supports Savior's actions, of course, but we continue to admire him for his unparralled achievements before. People who want to remember only bad things are not rational in mind. | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:49 ForTehDarkseid wrote: It represents everything BW isn't. It means people change with time or something. Everyone knows people can change. But he specifically states he believes that Savior has changed and I ask for some examples (of his behaviour) that would back that claim. If you think "People change" and "someone who played BW plays LoL now" is enough of a proof that a specific person has changed for the better, then you need a reality check or something. jesus | ||
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oBlade
United States5337 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:53 Stratos wrote: Everyone knows people can change. But he specifically states he believes that Savior has changed and I ask for some examples (of his behaviour) that would back that claim. If you think "People change" and "someone who played BW plays LoL now" is enough of a proof that a specific person has changed for the better, then you need a reality check or something. jesus No. I meant Riot and Blizzard played more significant role in killing BW proscene, like it or not. Now people support these companies like it didn't happen at all, but refuse to forgive Savior at the same time. That's hypocrisy, at best. Maestro was unique. at least. Doesn't matter what he represents now. All idols fall, reality checked. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:01 ForTehDarkseid wrote: No. I meant Riot and Blizzard played more significant role in killing BW proscene, like it or not. Now people support these companies like it didn't happen at all, but refuse to forgive Savior. That's hypocrisy, at best. I don't like Blizzard and have never bought their games for years. I doubt many people on this forum love Blizzard either with risk of being called elitist. Riot has not deliberately acted to damage Brood War pro-scene. Most importantly, Blizzard and Riot have not done criminal activity. w/e I can see our viewpoint are incompatible. | ||
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FuryDrone
16 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:44 suicideyear wrote: i would watch him play just out of curiosity to see if he is still any good. ^ One good post in this topic. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:01 ForTehDarkseid wrote: No. I meant Riot and Blizzard played more significant role in killing BW proscene, like it or not. Now people support these companies like it didn't happen at all, but refuse to forgive Savior. That's hypocrisy, at best. lolwtf ... you notice that most BW fans have an extreme dislike towards Blizz for the stunts they pulled right? It was Blizz's and Savior's actions that brought the abrupt, early end of the BW pro-scene, and Savior's actions had wider impact on eSports as a whole in Korea. Riot has nothing to do with this | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:10 traceurling wrote: It's in featured articles....TLFE Man savior playing again :/ I looked at the TLFE page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlfe/ , but didn't see anything titled " before the fall. " Was he referring to the "god of the battlefield" articles? Or something else? | ||
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Kittan
Poland3999 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:01 ForTehDarkseid wrote: No. I meant Riot and Blizzard played more significant role in killing BW proscene, like it or not. Now people support these companies like it didn't happen at all, but refuse to forgive Savior at the same time. That's hypocrisy, at best. Maestro was unique, at least. Doesn't matter what he represent now for me. All idols fall. You're either high or delusional, you quote my posts but I have no idea where this "conversation", which it really isn't, is possibly going next. Guess we'll never find out anyway because I really don't want to risk permanent brain damage. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:22 Golgotha wrote: I want to see bisu vs savior again. I hope this happens. It would be the best match of the year. If u hate savior, just root for bisu to curb stomp him. He would destroy him, it wouldn't even be a good set | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:11 Stratos wrote: You're either high or delusional, you quote my posts but I have no idea where this "conversation", which it really isn't, is possibly going next. Guess we'll never find out anyway because I really don't want to risk permanent brain damage. You are rather rude. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:15 Disregard wrote: Bisu is on a whole another level at this point, even recently active progamers don't stand a chance against him. He bodied Sea the other day, as a Sea fan but a bigger Bisu fan I was happy, but also sad at the same time, it looked like Sea didn't even have a chance. | ||
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soujiro_
Uruguay5195 Posts
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:07 Hesmyrr wrote: Riot has not deliberately acted to damage Brood War pro-scene. Most importantly, Blizzard and Riot have not done criminal activity. w/e I can see our viewpoint are incompatible. Riot paid OGN to promote LOL - it gained success - LoL took part of BW's resources (broadcast schedules, casters, coaches, advertising, etc). And look how they treated Dota which didn't even have that. Killing BW is legal. Robbing gambling industry is not. I guess people are bitter because of the betrayal, and I agree that "Savior's actions had wider impact on eSports as a whole in Korea". I just don't understand why people can't forget and forgive, because he had done more harm to himself than to other people with this act. And he was outstanding in the past. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:11 miercat wrote: I looked at the TLFE page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlfe/ , but didn't see anything titled " before the fall. " Was he referring to the "god of the battlefield" articles? Or something else? God of the battlefield is Before the fall (unless I'm mistakes but I don't think I am) | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:27 ForTehDarkseid wrote: Riot paid OGN to promote LOL - it gained success - LoL took part of BW's resources (broadcast schedules, casters, coaches, advertising, etc). And look how they treated Dota which didn't even have that. Killing BW is legal. Robbing gambling industry is not. I guess people are bitter because of the betrayal, and I agree that "Savior's actions had wider impact on eSports as a whole in Korea". I just don't understand why people can't forget and forgive, because he had done more harm to himself than to other people with this act. And he was outstanding in the past. You know I really didn't want to post in this thread, but here I am. He did a lot of harm not only to the scene (look at what map-fixing did to WCIII in Korea), but to all the players he got on board with the scandal. Something tells me that you weren't around for all those threads with regards to the court case and when the CJ Coach heard rumors and approached SaviOr only to be lied to. There are a lot and I do mean a lot of threads on it and it did have an impact like everything else. It's all about what have you done for me lately and in all honesty he hasn't done much. | ||
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RainmanMP
United States1698 Posts
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote: Oi, you don't see people acting this angrily toward other match-fixers besides that wife beater. We are not forgiving Savior because he is not convincing me he has changed for the better. Ignoring his prominent role in match-fixing, let me list all the dumb things Savior has done since his debut in Afreeca, besides his general unrepentant attitude:
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known. Still doesn't change Savior nearly killed the Korean e-sported industry and is unrepentant about it. Is using Pirated Starcraft really that bad? lol? | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 20 2013 06:03 StarStruck wrote: You know I really didn't want to post in this thread, but here I am. He did a lot of harm not only to the scene (look at what map-fixing did to WCIII in Korea), but to all the players he got on board with the scandal. I do not buy the idea that other players wouldn't be matchfixing, if not Savior. It isn't like he blackmailed them into doing it, right? They were partners in crime. Something tells me that you weren't around for all those threads with regards to the court case and when the CJ Coach heard rumors and approached SaviOr only to be lied to. There are a lot and I do mean a lot of threads on it and it did have an impact like everything else.. I am sure I wasn't feeling the same way about Savior that time I do now. It's all about what have you done for me lately and in all honesty he hasn't done much. He had carried his prison sentence, didn't he? | ||
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
I am not saying the Savior should be forgiven, but the assertion that he somehow single-handedly killed broodwar seems farfetched, and short-sighted argument. In my opinion its a harmful attitude in general. In the aftermath Kespa actually started taking actions that would have counteracted match fixing (for which I seem to remember hearing accounts that activities had been going on before saviors involvement). Wouldn't it be more productive to learn from the flaws in the original system? If the bw scene is going to recover and grow again I think it really needs to become more self aware that there was blame to spread around the scene for those events. If one bad egg can really kill such a long running organization, there are surely other problems that need to be looked at. This may be an extremely western attitude, but I also feel the fact that Savior keeps sticking around is testament to him genuinely caring about bw. If the hatred against him is as intense in Korea as it is on teamliquid (and since everyone always refers to culture when discussing savior, i assume it must be even stronger) wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just leave? Literally anything he does that involves the game will send people into a rage. Should he remain banned from Korean tournaments? Yes. But I for one can't get behind this anger that he is wrong for some individuals still wanting to support him and see him play. Its an extremely prevalent, toxic attitude, and reason itself to not want to associate with the scene. edit: I'd just like to add that I hope there isnt a backlash against movie...this seems like a good opportunity, when there are so few for ex-kespa pros at the moment. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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CutTheEnemy
Canada373 Posts
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N.geNuity
United States5111 Posts
On November 20 2013 06:21 ForTehDarkseid wrote: He had carried his prison sentence, didn't he? he never had a sentence | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1667 Posts
On November 20 2013 07:52 CutTheEnemy wrote: I think TL needs to boycott the broadcasts in a public way. That would have no effect on Savior. It would damage the tournament, which wouldn't be good. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Falling
Canada11294 Posts
On November 20 2013 08:18 ImbaTosS wrote: That would have no effect on Savior. It would damage the tournament, which wouldn't be good. Plus do boycotts ever work? The only ones I have seen are ones where the negative attention just more attention to the thing they wanted boycotted and therefore more people interested in the thing that was supposed to be boycotted. | ||
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King[Neikos]
Costa Rica506 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 20 2013 08:48 King[Neikos] wrote: Savior should not be involved in anything esports related, I guess the tournament organizers do not really understand the bad press this represents for it. I really don't think that outside of Korea this is as big of a deal as people seem to think it is. Match fixing scandals happen across every sport in the world and eventually people move on, forgive the people and just get on with it. This eternal hate for Saviour when he was far from the main reason this happened I think is over the top. Admittedly I understand the anti-saviour points too, but I think it's time to move on. Saviour didn't kill BW in Korea, lack of Sponsorships killed BW and although it can partly be attributed to the match fixing, I hardly think it's the true reason. Anyway, BW is still alive in it's own way so we should just be happy about that. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5111 Posts
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote:
What's wrong with this statement if it was the truth. The court findings does not contradict this. On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote:
These are all things that I have done or will do if I was in his position. Savior isn't a saint. He's just sinner like everyone else. When he tries to go away but still end up streaming on Afreeca later, it just makes him authentic. He just can't move away from the game. It might be a feeling that you might have felt if you grew up with starcraft. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
What is it about Savior that makes the crazies and mental midgets come out in full force? 1) Savior may not have killed Brood War by himself. However, he did kill Air Force Ace. If you do think that the end of Air Force Ace had a negligible impact on Brood War, then you are either ignorant or logically impaired. 2) Savior fixed matches out of greed, not out of need. Savior was a huge star with a large salary and large accumulated prize money. He did not need money. He was known for his expensive habits and his love for luxury brands like Gucci and Dior. 3) The players who Savior recruited to fix matches were in very vulnerable positions. They made a lot less money than Savior, and they were not huge stars. The people he recruited may be partially excused for being in bad financial situations with bad future prospects. Savior? He's like a gang leader who recruited the poor children in his neighborhood to be his drug dealers on the street. This just disgusting. 4) Savior was not a "kid". He was an adult. He knew that he was doing something very bad and went to great lengths to cover his tracks. During his public trial in court, testimony revealed that Savior used money laundering techniques like transferring payments to the members of his match-fixing ring in multiple small increments to avoid the suspicion that lump sum payments would attract. Sounds more like the behavior of a seasoned crook than that of a naive kid who stumbled onto the wrong side of the tracks. 5) The match-fixing scandal had a definite effect on the attitudes of government officials in Korea. Boxer was invited to meet the president prior to the scandal. The government created Air Force Ace to support pro gaming as a viable career and take advantage of the positive images associated with pro gaming. What kind of things happened post-scandal? The government killed Air Force Ace. Korea instituted a policy of shutting down online gaming at midnight---a policy that had been repeatedly rejected earlier in the decade. Legislators pushed to classify computer gaming as one of the four evils of society to be regulated along with gambling, drugs, and alcohol. The connection between organized illegal gambling and the match-fixing scandal is not something we can ignore. 6) Yes, Blizzard killed Brood War with its broadcasting rights disputes and that boring non-sequel. Yes, MBC Music killed Brood War by replacing MBC Game. Yes, the KeSPA system had (and still has) some inherent flaws that leave its weaker players vulnerable to predatory criminal recruiters. BUT!! Would Brood War have been better able to fight back against the tides if it was not punched in the kidneys by the scandal? Yes. Would the executive decision to shut down MBC Game have been more difficult had the game not been tainted by the stink of Savior's diarrhea? Yes. Would KeSPA have had more time to make corrections to the way that it treated the marginal players and improve their welfare (just as other sports did over longer periods of time) had the scandal not happened? Yes. A person who is dismissive of the impact that the match-fixing scandal had on the demise of professional Brood War reveals that his/her counterfactual reasoning module is defective or absent. 7) Does anyone honestly believe that reminding the general public (and the authorities) about Savior's connection with Brood War is helpful to the future of the game? Even if Savior repented and was forgiven, this is just a stupid thing to do. He can find a temp job working at a grocery store. Heck, I don't care if he runs his own personal channel on Afreeca. Just keep him out of events that appear to be sanctioned by the Brood War community. Such a punishment is neither inhumane nor disproportionate. The asshole was profiting off Brood War even while he was serving his sentence for crying out loud! 8) I could forgive Savior if he displays some goddamn contrition. Telling his crazy fans that he was "only" a broker and did not fix his own matches tells me all I need to know about that. He's still making excuses for himself and trying to downplay his role. Fuck him. 9) Really, fuck Savior. 10) There are plenty of awesome zergs to love. Zero has come to Afreeca. Hero and Killer provide entertaining competition. Hopefully, Jaedong eventually tires of SC2 and retires to stream Brood War while having his shoulders massaged by a harem of models. Get some perspective and stop making excuses for this has-been who is nothing but a burden on the rest of the community. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Considering you butchered my format to deal with each point I made. I'm not going to re-quote you: Savior was approached and facilitated the other players like an intermediary. If you actually paid attention to the court case you would know this. These players were in a lose-lose scenario. Once they knew about it and who was involved (follow your Hyungs) do you want to be the one who exposes what big brother is doing not knowing the consequences or how it will affect your own livelihood? Come on. It's not so easy to be in their shoes. That doesn't mean you were around when our forums were flooded about the scandal and the aftermath. Just because a convict gets out of prison doesn't mean they learned their lesson. Repeat offenders man. Ofc we're generalizing now, but that doesn't give them a right to return to the game. Just like Pete Rose isn't allowed to return to baseball for placing bets. I can see why people would frown upon this. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
Savior was a high profile scapegoat for the match-fixing scandal, an issue that was blown completely out of proportion by the Korean media. Of course he should have been banned from SC but this bizarre hatred of him is absurd and conveniently misplaced. The main problem with BW and what is also a huge issue with SC2 and all esports to the best of my knowledge is a winner take all mentality that rewards the best and most lucky many times more than the other players. The fact that so many devote so much time to this game and develop such amazing talent yet hardly make anything while others who are only slightly better accrue absurd amounts of cash is fucked up. Sadly enough, match-fixing is a step away from this zero-sum-game. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote: By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known. OH. MY. GOD. ... Is there source for this information? | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
edit: offline finals are going to be played there: 上海市瞿溪路988号汇景生活广场B2层 edit: Alright so Savior vs Movie is actually a wildcard match to determine which of the two will qualify the offline finals in Shanghai in 10 days. Also it says time 19:00, but that's Chinese time, so for everyone planning to watch, that's 20:00 KST. | ||
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BearAttack
33 Posts
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white_horse
1019 Posts
People wanting savior back just want to see more of his play to entertain themselves. That's selfish. That kind of attitude wouldn't happen if you actually cared about professional BW. | ||
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blueblimp
Canada297 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3317 Posts
On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote: 1) Savior may not have killed Brood War by himself. However, he did kill Air Force Ace. If you do think that the end of Air Force Ace had a negligible impact on Brood War, then you are either ignorant or logically impaired. Forgive my ignorance, my ACE fielded an awesome squad all the way until the very end of BW SPL, almost three years after the match fixing scandal. How did he kill ACE? On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote: 5) The match-fixing scandal had a definite effect on the attitudes of government officials in Korea. Boxer was invited to meet the president prior to the scandal. The government created Air Force Ace to support pro gaming as a viable career and take advantage of the positive images associated with pro gaming. What kind of things happened post-scandal? The government killed Air Force Ace. Korea instituted a policy of shutting down online gaming at midnight---a policy that had been repeatedly rejected earlier in the decade. Legislators pushed to classify computer gaming as one of the four evils of society to be regulated along with gambling, drugs, and alcohol. The connection between organized illegal gambling and the match-fixing scandal is not something we can ignore. That's completely baseless and it's an absolutely huge stretch. I'd guess that the kids dropping dead, the parents neglecting children, the rampant online addiction, cyberbullying, etc, were a way bigger deal. On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote: 6) Yes, Blizzard killed Brood War with its broadcasting rights disputes and that boring non-sequel. Yes, MBC Music killed Brood War by replacing MBC Game. Yes, the KeSPA system had (and still has) some inherent flaws that leave its weaker players vulnerable to predatory criminal recruiters. BUT!! Would Brood War have been better able to fight back against the tides if it was not punched in the kidneys by the scandal? Yes. Would the executive decision to shut down MBC Game have been more difficult had the game not been tainted by the stink of Savior's diarrhea? Yes. Would KeSPA have had more time to make corrections to the way that it treated the marginal players and improve their welfare (just as other sports did over longer periods of time) had the scandal not happened? Yes. A person who is dismissive of the impact that the match-fixing scandal had on the demise of professional Brood War reveals that his/her counterfactual reasoning module is defective or absent. Again, all of those things were two years after... I can completely agree that "fuck Saviour", and I completely love BW, but to me, the argument that 'Savior killed BW!1' is just a BW apologist mentality that the game could have possibly succeeded into 2012 and onwards. It's ludicrous. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote: Forgive my ignorance, my ACE fielded an awesome squad all the way until the very end of BW SPL, almost three years after the match fixing scandal. How did he kill ACE? That's completely baseless and it's an absolutely huge stretch. I'd guess that the kids dropping dead, the parents neglecting children, the rampant online addiction, cyberbullying, etc, were a way bigger deal. Again, all of those things were two years after... I can completely agree that "fuck Saviour", and I completely love BW, but to me, the argument that 'Savior killed BW!1' is just a BW apologist mentality that the game could have possibly succeeded into 2012 and onwards. It's ludicrous. so things can't have an effect down the road? it was mentioned earlier that were it not for the existing infrastructure in place, it WOULD have shut down there and then, just so happens that we managed to delay the demise by another 2 years. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
I'm not condoning their actions, but please let those of us who want to remember him as the Messiah of Zerg do so without having to read this bullshit in every single thread. | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9151 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote: Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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ShiroKaisen
United States1082 Posts
He has no right to pick up a mouse and play fucking Minecraft, much less the game he forsook for a quick buck. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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pebble444
Italy2495 Posts
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lemmata
468 Posts
On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote: Forgive my ignorance, my ACE fielded an awesome squad all the way until the very end of BW SPL, almost three years after the match fixing scandal. How did he kill ACE? These decisions do not get made in a day. It was repeatedly reported in the Korean media that the Air Force was brass was in discussions to shut down ACE in light of the scandal and the participation of an ACE player in it. Brood War fans in Korea signed petitions to protest this and put up a lot of resistance. However, there were plenty of whispers that it was a done deal that the team would disband once the recruits who had joined ACE at the time of the scandal finished their service...which lasts approximately 2-3 years. Coincidence? Also, a little more than a year and a half after Savior's guilty verdict in court, Air Force confirmed that it would not be recruiting new players, even as it continued fielding a team. 6 months later, Air Force announced that the team would be disbanding. On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote: That's completely baseless and it's an absolutely huge stretch. I'd guess that the kids dropping dead, the parents neglecting children, the rampant online addiction, cyberbullying, etc, were a way bigger deal. Completely baseless? As I mentioned, Air Force's internal discussions regarding ACE were reported by the Korean media. What does cyber-bullying have to do with online gaming after midnight? That policy was enacted a year after Savior's guilty verdict. The Korean legislators discussed the shutdown law many times before that, but it always failed to pass until the scandal happened. It would be silly to say that the scandal had no effect on public opinion on this issue. On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote: Again, all of those things were two years after... And? Do you deny that Brood War was weakened by the scandal? Would it have been as easy to shut down MBC game otherwise? Also, Blizzard's dispute is not about causality. It is about whether the dispute alone would have been enough to kill Brood War without these compounding effects. These decisions are not made immediately. Again, there are frictions in the real world. Also, MBC Game folded 1 year after Savior's guilty verdict, not 2 years. It seems like 2 years if you count from the time when the match-fixing was mentioned as a possibility without any names attached. On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote: I can completely agree that "fuck Saviour", and I completely love BW, but to me, the argument that 'Savior killed BW!1' is just a BW apologist mentality that the game could have possibly succeeded into 2012 and onwards. It's ludicrous. This is the very straw man that I railed against in the beginning of my post. I made it clear that Savior is not the only one who killed Brood War. Attacking an argument that I did not actually make does not discredit my point. There were many factors. At least we agree that Savior is an asshole, regardless of the ultimate effect that he may have had. On November 20 2013 11:34 miercat wrote: OH. MY. GOD. ... Is there source for this information? Yes. See this video at 27 minutes. It is in Korean, but it is as Hesmyrr wrote. | ||
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ShiroKaisen
United States1082 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote: If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. if you honestly believe that savior did not have a hand in causing broodwar to die, you're incredibly naive | ||
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sqwert
United States781 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
hope there will be stream/vods *fingers crossed* | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 20 2013 14:49 ChriS-X wrote: if you honestly believe that savior did not have a hand in causing broodwar to die, you're incredibly naive Look. We all agree he is a fucking asshole and fucked up the scene. We are not blind, we know what he did and it was beyond shit. But by no means was he the sole reason of the downfall of BW. Yes, he damaged it, but you have to also give him credit for the years he raised it. However, this blame game is not the point. The point is people are acting like what he did was unforgivable, as if he murdered someone and can never be given a 2nd chance. This is what I do not understand, he made a huge mistake as young pro-gamer, but what right do you have to judge him forever? What if you were in his shoes? You try to move on from your past, you try to redeem yourself, but no one gives you any opportunity to do right again. We've all made mistakes before, if he is remorseful and regretful of what he has done, then we should get off our high horses and let him be. If none of you have ever sinned, you can condemn him.There are bigger fish to fry, get over it. Oh, and he has paid fucking dearly for what he did (financially, etc). No need to abuse him on these forums because the Korean fans have done a lot more. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
He's a horrible person for what he did and if the other rumours about him badmouthing the game and not apologizing for whatever role he played are true then I can see how people can still be angry with him and honestly, he's a scumbag for not expressing remorse for his actions. Personally, I think if he gave a sincere apology and tried to make up for his mistake, then with time, he should be forgiven. This is of course, if he is genuinely sorry for what he did. I talked a Korean friend who used to follow the BW scene around that time and asked him about it and his opinion. In summary, he told me that after it happened, he stopped(I think lost interest) in the scene and hasn't followed it since. To him, even though he'll say the name(unlike what I heard on here that Koreans don't use it), he is pissed at Saviour for what he's done. It does put the situation in a new light and I do feel that the difference in culture plays some role in why Saviour is still not forgiven even though he technically served his sentence. As for watching this, I'm not sure yet. I never did watch much of his games tbh so I might tune in for a game or so to see how well he plays but I doubt I'll be amazed by his play at this point. There's always Killer to watch on snipealot for my zerg needs lol | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote: If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 20 2013 15:21 supernovamaniac wrote: I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then. You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 20 2013 15:33 Golgotha wrote: You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources. Dominos. Someone lines them up, but it doesn't fall. Someone else needs to push the first block and then everything else ensues. Chain Reaction. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On November 20 2013 15:33 Golgotha wrote: You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources. But I would say he can make that judgment based on talking to industry insiders that he would have met while casting in Korea. Or maybe your opinion is more valuable than that of people working at and with kespa and ogn. | ||
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myminerals
560 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 20 2013 16:10 Jaaaaasper wrote: But I would say he can make that judgment based on talking to industry insiders that he would have met while casting in Korea. Or maybe your opinion is more valuable than that of people working at and with kespa and ogn. mat Did you read what I said? That's exactly my point. They had the most to lose, thus, their objectivity would be in danger because of this. This is why in the U.S. justice system, the jury is not composed of the victim's families or anyone who might lean a certain direction. Once you step back from the savior scandal, it is not so hard to see that there is more at play than just savior damaging BW. Or are you seriously suggesting that he is the sole culprit? If so, no matter what I say will never get through your head. Oh and dont bring up kespa and how kespa's opinions are so holy. I know all y'all have whined about how idiotic some of their rules are. | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
What positive does Savior's stream actually bring into the scene? SoSPA is well off without him, there's actually an overload of ex-pros. Whatever you personally think about it, his presence is clearly (see this thread) dividing the already small community and sheads a bad light on the Afreeca streaming community in general (see oov's/stork's message). All of these circumstances suggest that if Savior decided to finally care about the game, he would move on and never look back. We'd lose a few fanatic Savior fans but the scene as a whole would be far better off without him. This should be clear enough and no matter how much you want to see Savior play or do well in life in general, you should take these into consideration the next time you want to support his persistent streaming. If you're okay with him still hurting the scene today, okay, it's your moral code. Just throwing this out there for you guys to consider. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Of course what Savior did was damaging, unethical, and just plain wrong. But he was tried in a court of law and punished --- including losing his livelihood --- and it's really none of our business if he now happens to pick up a StarCraft CD and log onto Battle.net. And it's none of our business if he wants to charge money to give private lessons. Brood War is not my house or your house that we have the right to decide who plays it. It's not wrong for him to enjoy BW or share with the community what skills and knowledge he has to offer, and it's not wrong for him to accept money for perfectly legal StarCraft-related activities like teaching, streaming, or tournament participation. He was caught, tried, and punished, and he's not likely to be a repeat offender, so I see no problem with accepting any constructive additions to the BW scene he may yet have to offer. As for whether his continued involvement would reflect well on tournament BW --- well, look, having important figures go on about how he's the scum of the earth and should never touch a mouse and keyboard again looks pretty darn bad. When people talk like that they sound like little children, including Oov. If people had approached the situation in a positive and understanding way from the start, the match-fixers could have been fined, stripped of their illegal winnings, banned from Proleague for a short duration, and made to do something useful like teaching workshops for younger players on competitive integrity, the right course of action to take when approached by crooked gamblers, and the consequences of throwing matches. We could have erased the match-fixing just as thoroughly, come to terms with what happened, and still been able to enjoy the skills of people like Hwasin, UpMagic, Yarnc, go.go, and yes, Savior. Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose. @Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. The trial and punishment were over long ago. Savior is participating in the game in a way that is wholly constructive and non-damaging, or at least it would be if people would quit kicking him for it; so as far as I'm concerned, if there's damage being caused, it's the kickers' problem, not Savior's. | ||
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myminerals
560 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
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blueblimp
Canada297 Posts
On November 20 2013 16:38 myminerals wrote: Yay! Great to see some fresh action. On the other hand, I don't think Savior is that good anymore.. Has anyone watched his streams? I wouldn't expect Savior to be good in today's game. Richard Garfield classifies competitive gamers on an "innovator" vs "honer" spectrum. Savior is perhaps the all-time most innovative BW pro, having invented modern ZvT. (iloveoov is the other contender for that title, I think.) Revolution Day, Bisu's win in the MSL finals, marked the transition to the modern era, which is dominated by honers. As an example, consider how so many players play almost exclusively Fighting Spirit: great for honing your builds and execution, but with little innovation possible now given how much it has been played. There's nothing wrong with that, but it plays against Savior's strengths as a player. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On November 20 2013 16:46 Golgotha wrote: mat Did you read what I said? That's exactly my point. They had the most to lose, thus, their objectivity would be in danger because of this. This is why in the U.S. justice system, the jury is not composed of the victim's families or anyone who might lean a certain direction. Once you step back from the savior scandal, it is not so hard to see that there is more at play than just savior damaging BW. Or are you seriously suggesting that he is the sole culprit? If so, no matter what I say will never get through your head. Oh and dont bring up kespa and how kespa's opinions are so holy. I know all y'all have whined about how idiotic some of their rules are. I never said that kespa is the sole expert, but to continue with your justice system analogy, the prosecution and the defense bring in expert witnesses to testify, such as people from ogn or kespa or even someone who was involved with ogn and kespa after the fact like snm, who are trusted more than random people on the street, like you. Saviour did not single handedly destroy bw, but he did more damage than sc2 ever did to the brand. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Savior and Movie were invited to play in the losers bracket of the online stage of the tournament, so they will play against everyone who's been eliminated from the tournament (I'm not sure from what stage, could be 37, 17, 8, or just 2 players). The winner of this tournament will join the three players who have advanced from the winners' bracket (so a total of four players) to play in the main event, which is the offline tournament held in Shanghai. The offline tournament will supposedly have eight total participants: 3 from the online tournament 3 Korean players (I'm guessing Scan, Beast, and someone else) 2 players who were eliminated picked by the sponsor I'm not really sure where Savior and Movie fit TBH. The joy of Chinese tournament is that organization is typically a huge mess. Both Savior and Movie were invited to participate by the sole sponsor of the tournament (offering total prize of 0.54 MILLION rmb or US$90,000). | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
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lemmata
468 Posts
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: The reason why the match fixing scandal still casts a shadow is that fans and important figures like Oov took it as an opportunity to prove their devotion to BW by hyperbolically demonizing the progamers involved. Oh, you can read Oov's mind now? Oov sure needs to prove his devotion to BW when his livelihood depends on SC2. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: They call the crimes "unspeakable" and "despicable" and talk about the "suffering and anguish" they caused. That's how we talk about rapists and terrorists. Oov said Bisu would become "the same as Savior" if he just played some online games with him. When people talk this way, they're just trying to increase their social standing by distancing themselves from the pariah. We use those words for a lot of things. Worse things are said about rapists and terrorists. Stop being a pansy. When people condemn criminal acts, they are providing a warning to the society at large that harming others for personal profit is not acceptable behavior. We said those same words about Bernie Madoff and banks that sold risk mortgages after repackaging them to hide the risk. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Of course what Savior did was damaging, unethical, and just plain wrong. But he was tried in a court of law and punished --- including losing his livelihood --- and it's really none of our business if he now happens to pick up a StarCraft CD and log onto Battle.net. And it's none of our business if he wants to charge money to give private lessons. Brood War is not my house or your house that we have the right to decide who plays it. It's not wrong for him to enjoy BW or share with the community what skills and knowledge he has to offer, and it's not wrong for him to accept money for perfectly legal StarCraft-related activities like teaching, streaming, or tournament participation. I don't care what he does on his own time. Just keep him out of tournaments, which are not run by him. Don't taint whatever Brood War scene we have left by association. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: As for whether his continued involvement would reflect well on tournament BW --- well, look, having important figures go on about how he's the scum of the earth and should never touch a mouse and keyboard again looks pretty darn bad. When people talk like that they sound like little children, including Oov. What looks childish is not realizing the magnitude of the impact that match-fixing scandals have on serious sports. What sounds childishly lacking in perspective is telling the victims that they should be restrained in their criticism of their assailant. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: If people had approached the situation in a positive and understanding way from the start, the match-fixers could have been fined, stripped of their illegal winnings, banned from Proleague for a short duration, This reveals that you have a child-like understanding of the severity of match-fixing. In any major sport in the world, match-fixing demands a life-time ban. It challenges the integrity of the results. Match-fixing is the difference between activities like pro wrestling---which is the butt of jokes---and respectable sports. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: and made to do something useful like teaching workshops for younger players on competitive integrity, the right course of action to take when approached by crooked gamblers, and the consequences of throwing matches. KeSPA holds workshops for young players now. These workshops are led by people with more integrity than convicted criminals. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: We could have erased the match-fixing just as thoroughly, come to terms with what happened, and still been able to enjoy the skills of people like Hwasin, UpMagic, Yarnc, go.go, and yes, Savior. Keep up dude. The word online is that Savior's skills are gone now. He was already no longer a top-tier pro during the year leading up to the scandal. If he's getting his eyebrows shaved by Terror, then that says it all. On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose. Yup, and Savior accidentally recruited players into match-fixing. *sarcasm* On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: @Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. Or maybe he just likes easy money? Fanboy much? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Do you even know how Savior behaves on his stream? Do you know that he bans people who use any words that are either related to match-fixing, sound similar to match-fixing, or can be loosely associated with the various details of the match-fixing scandal? He bans people for mentioning other match-fixing events in history. Sounds like a person who is a reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly repentant and wants healing. Did you know that Savior has SUED people for posting negative stuff about him on online forums? Sit on that last bit for a second. The man is a disgrace. | ||
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: @Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. The trial and punishment were over long ago. Savior is participating in the game in a way that is wholly constructive and non-damaging, or at least it would be if people would quit kicking him for it; so as far as I'm concerned, if there's damage being caused, it's the kickers' problem, not Savior's. I merely stated the facts and my discontent with the current state of affairs (i.e. Savior's presence hurting the scene). I identified the one realistic way of putting an end to this problem (i.e. Savior leaving the scene) and I'll support that course of action. I think that's a very pragmatic approach and I don't see where you get the idea of any emotional investment on my side. I am not interested in your moral constructions because ultimately you can change a few people's mind and improve the situation but it's been some time now and it's clear that the issue is still very present and not going anywhere. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10660 Posts
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myminerals
560 Posts
Seriously, right now all I care is that I want to watch him play BW and hope it won't be a waste of time. | ||
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kjwcj
Australia1064 Posts
Is there controversy in China over MJY playing in competitive games? | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On November 20 2013 05:12 vOdToasT wrote: He would destroy him, it wouldn't even be a good set He=Who? Him=Whom? | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote: 8) I could forgive Savior if he displays some goddamn contrition. Telling his crazy fans that he was "only" a broker and did not fix his own matches tells me all I need to know about that. He's still making excuses for himself and trying to downplay his role. Fuck him. Seems like boasting to me | ||
Epoxide
Magic Woods9326 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose. I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 20 2013 19:20 thezanursic wrote: I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix. That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine. It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded... | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Internet warriors vilify Savior because taking his actions as a personal affront proves that they are hardcore. Yes, I can read Oov's mind. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
On November 20 2013 19:41 Djabanete wrote: @Lemmata: Internet warriors vilify Savior because taking his actions as a personal affront proves that they are hardcore. Internet warriors defend Savior because taking absurd contrarian positions proves that they are edgy and enlightened. On November 20 2013 19:41 Djabanete wrote: Yes, I can read Oov's mind. Okay. You're correct then. No point in continuing. Have a nice day. | ||
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LRM)INF3cted
Bulgaria242 Posts
 ))))) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6504 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19173 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
On November 20 2013 20:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: where stream vods ? Oo that's what i wanna know too! | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Yes, Savior made a horrible bad mistake. He has suffered the judicial consequences for it. Can we move on please? | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19173 Posts
On November 20 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote: Can't we just sit down and enjoy people with good skills play Brood War, regardless of past actions? Yes, Savior made a horrible bad mistake. He has suffered the judicial consequences for it. Can we move on please? Why do you feel that you need to convince those that are angry to move on. To add more to my post above, if it were Bisu I would have been so upset I would have quit competitive starcraft all together. So I can see why people are upset if I was in their shoes. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6504 Posts
On November 20 2013 22:20 BisuDagger wrote: Why do you feel that you need to convince those that are angry to move on. To add more to my post above, if it were Bisu I would have been so upset I would have quit competitive starcraft all together. So I can see why people are upset if I was in their shoes. honestly u saying that cuz is not bisu.if u were a true bisu fan u will support not matter what.plus we all savior fans just like his art to play starcraft not his past actions. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 20 2013 17:26 Xxio wrote: Does savior still regularly play? Is he any good? Well, when I last checked in on him via afreeca he wasn't that good. On November 20 2013 18:02 PineapplePizza wrote: Is there an article somewhere that tells what Savior was like before the match-fixing scandal? It really sounds weird how someone who had to have put a lot of soul into the game could just...casually throw everything into the shitter. There are several articles written by TL staff members on him post-scandal and prior to it. Anyway, it's not that weird considering he was a shell of his former shelf ever since Bisu completely dismantled him. It's pretty disappointing and now no one questions the victory dances FBH did against him after beating him, heh heh heh. You should have seen the outrage back then when FBH first pulled it off. The response was hilarious. Also thank you Djabanete. That was one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in this thread. A lot of us our grown adults and we know how to take what those guys say with a grain of salt, lol. On November 20 2013 19:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine. It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded... I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19173 Posts
On November 20 2013 23:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: honestly u saying that cuz is not bisu.if u were a true bisu fan u will support not matter what.plus we all savior fans just like his art to play starcraft not his past actions. I know time heals all wounds but I'm not sure I would have had the patience or passion to stick around. Bisu will go down as one of my life hero's. Thinking about how some savior fans must of felt is really saddening. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: The reason why the match fixing scandal still casts a shadow is that fans and important figures like Oov took it as an opportunity to prove their devotion to BW by hyperbolically demonizing the progamers involved. They call the crimes "unspeakable" and "despicable" and talk about the "suffering and anguish" they caused. That's how we talk about rapists and terrorists. Oov said Bisu would become "the same as Savior" if he just played some online games with him. When people talk this way, they're just trying to increase their social standing by distancing themselves from the pariah. Of course what Savior did was damaging, unethical, and just plain wrong. But he was tried in a court of law and punished --- including losing his livelihood --- and it's really none of our business if he now happens to pick up a StarCraft CD and log onto Battle.net. And it's none of our business if he wants to charge money to give private lessons. Brood War is not my house or your house that we have the right to decide who plays it. It's not wrong for him to enjoy BW or share with the community what skills and knowledge he has to offer, and it's not wrong for him to accept money for perfectly legal StarCraft-related activities like teaching, streaming, or tournament participation. He was caught, tried, and punished, and he's not likely to be a repeat offender, so I see no problem with accepting any constructive additions to the BW scene he may yet have to offer. As for whether his continued involvement would reflect well on tournament BW --- well, look, having important figures go on about how he's the scum of the earth and should never touch a mouse and keyboard again looks pretty darn bad. When people talk like that they sound like little children, including Oov. If people had approached the situation in a positive and understanding way from the start, the match-fixers could have been fined, stripped of their illegal winnings, banned from Proleague for a short duration, and made to do something useful like teaching workshops for younger players on competitive integrity, the right course of action to take when approached by crooked gamblers, and the consequences of throwing matches. We could have erased the match-fixing just as thoroughly, come to terms with what happened, and still been able to enjoy the skills of people like Hwasin, UpMagic, Yarnc, go.go, and yes, Savior. Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose. @Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. The trial and punishment were over long ago. Savior is participating in the game in a way that is wholly constructive and non-damaging, or at least it would be if people would quit kicking him for it; so as far as I'm concerned, if there's damage being caused, it's the kickers' problem, not Savior's. It's true that the only "damage" he is causing is that people are getting mad over him. He's not actually doing anything substantial. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Bisu would destroy sAviOr | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 20 2013 23:23 StarStruck wrote: I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head. And i dont know what you mean by that idiotic statement. What ill informed posts? I only targeted the "on purpose" statement of some guys here. It's just mind boggling stupid to say he did on purpose destroy BW, all he did was being greedy and get money that he didn't deserve. This alone has nothing to do with "destroying BW on purpose". If you don't agree with it, then you are just not rational. I dont't even know why you target my post, i did never say anything about savior ever before cause i just don't know the bw scene, so i feel you either targeted the wrong person (me) or you are a troll/high/drunk/whatever. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 20 2013 23:46 The_Red_Viper wrote: And i dont know what you mean by that idiotic statement. What ill informed posts? I only targeted the "on purpose" statement of some guys here. It's just mind boggling stupid to say he did on purpose destroy BW, all he did was being greedy and get money that he didn't deserve. This alone has nothing to do with "destroying BW on purpose". If you don't agree with it, then you are just not rational. I dont't even know why you target my post, i did never say anything about savior ever before cause i just don't know the bw scene, so i feel you either targeted the wrong person (me) or you are a troll/high/drunk/whatever. Idiotic? I'd say it's right on the dime. It's gone on for long enough in the SC2 forums and now it's happening here. Rather than go through your post history let's focus on this thread alone and how many times we have to explain shit to you. Re-read the bottom of my last several posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. My God man. Now he's PMing me, lol. Let me leave it at this. When you are a regular on these forums you see a lot of stuff man and when you post as much as you do. It gives some of us a pretty good idea of what you're all about. Whether it be the love reports, general talk about game design, tournament formats, about players, etc. I read a lot. There is nothing weird about what I have to say with regards to you and you didn't do anything to me personally lol. A lot of the stuff you write is off-base and you stick out like a sore thumb. I'm just telling you that because you might want to consider what others have wrote and are trying to tell you before you make some of your posts because we are in fact going in circles. I will try to repeat this once more to you: A lot of the guys arguing here aren't trying to say the guy was trying to destroy the scene single-handedly (it's ridiculous notion to even think that with all the other parties involved). It's just one variable. Is that savvy? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:08 StarStruck wrote: Idiotic? I'd say it's right on the dime. It's gone on for long enough in the SC2 forums and now it's happening here. Rather than go through your post history let's focus on this thread alone and how many times we have to explain shit to you. Re-read the bottom of my last several posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. My God man. I never said that he didnt have an effect in the downfall of BW. But the statement "he did it on purpose" is stupid nonetheless. Do you think it was in his interest that the match fixing gets discovered? I don't try to defend him here, what he did was wrong and did damage BW, but that wasn't in his interest, that is ALL i am saying, i think that is not hard to understand, you just tell me things that have nothing to do with my original statement. Maybe you should learn to differentiate some statements, there is more than black and white. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
like i said. CURB stomp. this would make everyone happy because we get to see savior play and all the haters can watch Bisu destroy him. who wouldn't watch that? It would be sweet revenge if bisu trash talked a bit too. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: I never said that he didnt have an effect in the downfall of BW. But the statement "he did it on purpose" is stupid nonetheless. Do you think it was in his interest that the match fixing gets discovered? I don't try to defend him here, what he did was wrong and did damage BW, but that wasn't in his interest, that is ALL i am saying, i think that is not hard to understand, you just tell me things that have nothing to do with my original statement. Maybe you should learn to differentiate some statements, there is more than black and white. The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here. Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:29 StarStruck wrote: That's odd considering all this time I've been saying shades of grey. Please give what you read a little more thought before posting because it doesn't seem like you are reading what people are saying to you at all and instead are projecting stuff non-stop. Whatever, you quoted me and said the same things again, without me disagreeing with you in the first place, it is kinda ironic that you would blame me for that though. On November 21 2013 00:30 supernovamaniac wrote: The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here. Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing. No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality. @ starstruck: I would like you answering my pm nonetheless, i just can't see why you would imply such things, ty. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:50 vOdToasT wrote: Negro please -.- + Show Spoiler + I feel obliged to point out that he was sarcastic. He was parodying the attitude that some have towards sAviOr. That's called trolling and Flamebating. He should be banned for that post. User was warned for this post | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Whatever, you quoted me and said the same things again, without me disagreeing with you in the first place, it is kinda ironic that you would blame me for that though. No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality. @ starstruck: I would like you answering my pm nonetheless, i just can't see why you would imply such things, ty. Great because the post you directly replied to in the first place says that. /sarcasm. Nobody IMPLIED that he was involved in match fixing intentionally TO DESTROY BW. Rather, people are saying that he intentionally took part in match fixing, which resulted other things. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
I just love to watch his past games from time to time. The guy was my fucking hero when i was young. He sat for a long time with Boxer on my player to love and idols. At times i was pumped to hear he will play. But then i realised i can't watch his game because he is not whar he used to be. He was good, he was the FREAKING BEST ! But he blew it. Period. When you understand the korean standpoint, yeah i understand some of them don't even want to say his name. When Lance Armstrong was considered guilty he had to pay back money (i think) and give back all his title and had been banned from cycling sports for life (i think). So even if i loved that guy at some time. No he can't have a second chance. Does TeamLiquid need to not cover tournaments or news with SaviOr ? I don't know. In a sense i feel that they shouldn't but it could hurt tournaments. Do we want to hurt tournaments because they want to let SaviOr play... Man that's too complicated for me to have an opinion (because i can't as hell put good arguments on the table). I was a SaviOr fan. Today i'm a fresh newser for a little french clan. But i won't as hell cover news with SaviOr in it. We want E-sports to be on the same page as sports ? We all do right ? If so, you can't say SaviOr can have a second chance. | ||
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
Let the man play. Just because Kespa, an organization infamously rigid, uncaring, and demanding about their players, condemns a 22 year old kid to public shaming and a lifetime of humiliation doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play the game he loves. And fuck anyone who says otherwise. | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
You guys need to watch this video before defending anything about Savior, they explain the situation much better than I could ever do | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On November 20 2013 11:56 endy wrote: Meh, I wanna go take a look, haven't found the address yet. edit: offline finals are going to be played there: 上海市瞿溪路988号汇景生活广场B2层 edit: Alright so Savior vs Movie is actually a wildcard match to determine which of the two will qualify the offline finals in Shanghai in 10 days. Also it says time 19:00, but that's Chinese time, so for everyone planning to watch, that's 20:00 KST. On November 20 2013 17:58 Cambium wrote: Okay, some actual information on the tournament: Savior and Movie were invited to play in the losers bracket of the online stage of the tournament, so they will play against everyone who's been eliminated from the tournament (I'm not sure from what stage, could be 37, 17, 8, or just 2 players). The winner of this tournament will join the three players who have advanced from the winners' bracket (so a total of four players) to play in the main event, which is the offline tournament held in Shanghai. The offline tournament will supposedly have eight total participants: 3 from the online tournament 3 Korean players (I'm guessing Scan, Beast, and someone else) 2 players who were eliminated picked by the sponsor I'm not really sure where Savior and Movie fit TBH. The joy of Chinese tournament is that organization is typically a huge mess. Both Savior and Movie were invited to participate by the sole sponsor of the tournament (offering total prize of 0.54 MILLION rmb or US$90,000). Aren't these two posts contradicting each other? One claims that only one of them will travel to China, another claims that both will. Also I wanted to note that it took me five minutes to find this info in this thread because the vast majority of posts are about stuff that have nothing to do at all with the tournament itself... | ||
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TehRei
Sweden261 Posts
He was young and stupid at the time -- I get that too. He's even apologized for his actions, calling it "a big mistake" -- I know that. He also happens to be a competent zerg player to this date -- I can't deny that. With that in mind, there's still no way in hell that I'm cool with him getting invited to an event like this. I don't really care about what his intentions are/were, he's already blown his chance. Quite frankly, I think it's disrespectful for him to even show his face at events such as this. Others may disagree with me, and that's fine, since my opinion is not particularly diplomatic. I'm not out to convince others though, I just wanted to state my opinion on this, since it's something that I feel strongly about. | ||
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Lazuras
Sweden52 Posts
On November 20 2013 06:27 sheaRZerg wrote: I started watching a little bit before the match-fixing scandal, and my impression of the decline of the bw scene (as well as the teams disbanding and MBC switching) happened a decent time after that had died down. I had also thought it was much more a result of politics involving the new games. I would love to see some numbers regarding the viewership, to see if this was the case or my remembering the timeframe is just screwed up. I am not saying the Savior should be forgiven, but the assertion that he somehow single-handedly killed broodwar seems farfetched, and short-sighted argument. In my opinion its a harmful attitude in general. In the aftermath Kespa actually started taking actions that would have counteracted match fixing (for which I seem to remember hearing accounts that activities had been going on before saviors involvement). Wouldn't it be more productive to learn from the flaws in the original system? If the bw scene is going to recover and grow again I think it really needs to become more self aware that there was blame to spread around the scene for those events. If one bad egg can really kill such a long running organization, there are surely other problems that need to be looked at. This may be an extremely western attitude, but I also feel the fact that Savior keeps sticking around is testament to him genuinely caring about bw. If the hatred against him is as intense in Korea as it is on teamliquid (and since everyone always refers to culture when discussing savior, i assume it must be even stronger) wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just leave? Literally anything he does that involves the game will send people into a rage. Should he remain banned from Korean tournaments? Yes. But I for one can't get behind this anger that he is wrong for some individuals still wanting to support him and see him play. Its an extremely prevalent, toxic attitude, and reason itself to not want to associate with the scene. edit: I'd just like to add that I hope there isnt a backlash against movie...this seems like a good opportunity, when there are so few for ex-kespa pros at the moment. You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen. Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:54 supernovamaniac wrote: Great because the post you directly replied to in the first place says that. /sarcasm. Nobody IMPLIED that he was involved in match fixing intentionally TO DESTROY BW. Rather, people are saying that he intentionally took part in match fixing, which resulted other things. Exactly. Apparently, defending Savior impairs reading comprehension. It is either that or intentional ignorance. Sigh... | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On November 21 2013 02:11 Lazuras wrote: You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen. Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic. Watching the last SPL and finals I was pretty excited it didn't seem boring or predictable to me I saw a loos of good and exciting play, unusual and sometimes innovatives games. Brood War has a "standard" play but that doesn't mean the meta can't change, or people make slight alterations to their play that are huge and brilliant | ||
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Plissken_2097
Spain628 Posts
On November 21 2013 02:11 Lazuras wrote: You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen. Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic. The fact that you take fantasy as an example of unoriginality makes clear that you are talking without knowing jack shit, though predicating the total opposite. There's always been a most effective way to play the matchup, what you refer as "meta". It's always been, though changing quite abruptly with oov, savior and bisu, but after and before that it was quite expected the build orders the players would pull off. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
Illegal betting and matchfixing existed, exists, and will continue to exist in Korea for probably as long as gambling remains to be completely banned in that country; it is beyond naive to believe that a guy like Savior actually created the whole scene and system of fixed betting that took place there. The whole matchfixing thing happened because there was demand for it, it was created long before Savior - long before Brood War, even. Savior was just the convenient scapegoat that could be made an example of. Of course he's guilty of matchfixing, and deserved more than a slap on the hand for something like that - but it's clear as day that if Savior had been completely erased from history, never existed, someone else would have risen to the occasion and played his role. There's never been a shortage of underpaid progamers in Korea. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality. No one is saying that savior intentionally did it to damage bw, but it is safe to say that blizzard korea couldn't kill a game if they wanted to. They would have done much more damage trying to promote bw like the did sc2 in korea. | ||
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Lazuras
Sweden52 Posts
My point was that broodwar died becuase of the declining interest, you honestly didnt get that? if you dont agree with my examples, make your own. but then there was never any issue in your opinion right? it was savior, backed up with the devil company blizzard entertainment and its diabolical minion Riot, yes? Broodwar was at its pinnacle with ever growing attendance and every game being so entertaining, right? like i said, the point of my post was to tell my opinion on WHY broodwar died, not my expert opinion on the "Meta", balance or anything else having to do with the ingame play. You might be right but like i said, that was not the meaning of the post Get the point before you start trashtalking, i really cant believe that you didn't understand that, you are refering to examples of 1 of the many reasons i pointed out and you write it as if it was the only thing i blame the decline on. YOU dont know jack shit, dont talk until you get the point. | ||
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On November 21 2013 01:31 HollowLord wrote: Fuck tabloids, fuck haters, fuck witch-hunts, fuck flamewar threads, fuck censorship, fuck scapegoating, and fuck Kespa. Let the man play. Just because Kespa, an organization infamously rigid, uncaring, and demanding about their players, condemns a 22 year old kid to public shaming and a lifetime of humiliation doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play the game he loves. And fuck anyone who says otherwise. This. Also for those who agree that it is not a big deal, don't waste time in these arguments. Most of the arguments that I have read were written with really sketchy logic and lots of speculative reasoning. It's really not worth the effort arguing. For all the Koreans out there who take this very personally, recognize that you do have a right to dislike Savior. You should also however keep it in check, and stop reacting so viscerally to him for all of your woes about broodwar. I don't intend to speak for everyone but from many non-korean's perspectives, the match-fixing scandal looked like a very small blow to BW followed by an extremely self-destructive reaction. | ||
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
Also these Savior threads are nice fresh reminders on how little people care about the scene and lack the ability to accept credible information. Give SNM and his statements some respect, he has worked for OGN and talked to a lot of the professionals in the Korean eSports scene. | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
On November 21 2013 00:56 Hesmyrr wrote: I am of the opinion that all pro-Savior and anti-Savior thread should automatically be closed. People who want to watch him can go watch him and vice versa, end of the story, but instead we always get this stupid cesspool whenever the topic is brought up. I agree. No more "you should" when it comes to Savior. Let people feel how they want. It's not anyone's place to argue for how someone else is supposed to feel. Edit: If you were a fan, you would already be following him. Topics like this shouldn't be necessary to alert Savior fans of his appearances. I don't really care if somebody in China feels Savior should be allowed to play, that's for them to decide. | ||
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ForTehDarkseid
8139 Posts
On November 21 2013 02:11 Lazuras wrote: You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen. Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic. Does not compute. If you had actually followed the scene, you would knew how many innovations occured in all kind of matchups before the switch to SC2 finally hit. Hive Tech ZvZ, Queens in ZvT, the glimpse of Bio in TvP, the resurgence of Mass Wraiths in TvT and so on.. Also huge props for lemmata, you have succesfully convinced me Savior is a scum and shouldn't be affilated with any kind of BW activity once again. Hope community won't abandon Movie if he had to play (and win, supposedly) him. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On November 21 2013 06:04 OpticalShot wrote: Holy shit people just watch the damn guy if you like him and don't if you don't. Also these Savior threads are nice fresh reminders on how little people care about the scene and lack the ability to accept credible information. Give SNM and his statements some respect, he has worked for OGN and talked to a lot of the professionals in the Korean eSports scene. But but he disagrees with me, I have to ignore and belittle whats he says in order to feel correct about how I fell. You would think a community that goes back as far as this one does would be a but better about arguing on the internet, but I am clearly proof that this is not true. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
People forget about downside of being idol (Savior was one even past his prime), you can do more but also you can do less. Don't go "fuck the system", this is look, it's reality. Savior's influence didn't end at audience it influenced the whole industry. What's worse it was that status which was probably 2nd to Boxer in the industry that made him persuasive toward other players. Not only he exerted his social status of being older (important cultural part in Korea) on his colleagues but also the one of "mentorship". After all he was the one that brought a fresh air to the BW professional gameplay by reinventing ZvX MUs, giving a birth to a new era of Macro/strategic gameplay which in the end was what shaped the 2nd half of professional BW. The dozen of Zerg champions all share the element of Savior. This is however not an argument that erase the doubt, oh no quite the contrary. It was him that put all of that value... all of that influence on the scale. This is the responsibility of idols, and Savior was a great idol, and the fact that he risked all of that is immense. It practically says what it meant to him which is clearly not as much as for his fans. Even after the deed was done, the remorse didnt happen, whole industry, his colleagues, his FANS that he lied to, weren't even graced by a true "sorry". You loved Savior more than BW, and i can understand that. But i'll just say that, it was a one way ticket. He didnt give a damn about you, his true fan. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On November 21 2013 06:39 Cele wrote: ugh, not Savior again pls? If people wanna watch Savior, let them watch Savior. If not, not. All this talk and argumentation, especially after the Xy time, is a bit hyperbole to me. Show a little bit more respect please, you are before the eldest recurring argument here on TL. Far older than the impudent little sc2 vs bw quarrel newcomers sometimes complain about. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
Can he or can he not still hang with the top level players? If he still shows great plays and high level games, then I support his endeavor. If not, then I'll be just upset that the Chinese invited someone whose skills aren't up par. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On November 21 2013 01:31 HollowLord wrote: Fuck tabloids, fuck haters, fuck witch-hunts, fuck flamewar threads, fuck censorship, fuck scapegoating, and fuck Kespa. Let the man play. Just because Kespa, an organization infamously rigid, uncaring, and demanding about their players, condemns a 22 year old kid to public shaming and a lifetime of humiliation doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play the game he loves. And fuck anyone who says otherwise. That is a lot of fucking. | ||
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Lazuras
Sweden52 Posts
Does not compute. If you had actually followed the scene, you would knew how many innovations occured in all kind of matchups before the switch to SC2 finally hit. Hive Tech ZvZ, Queens in ZvT, the glimpse of Bio in TvP, the resurgence of Mass Wraiths in TvT and so on.. Also huge props for lemmata, you have successfully convinced me Savior is a scum and shouldn't be affilated with any kind of BW activity once again. Hope community won't abandon Movie if he had to play (and win, supposedly) him.[/QUOTE] ok, im giving up now.. once again iam talking about why it died, all these innovations you speak of is why bw survived for 12 years, but it pretty much stopped at the end because almost everything had been tried. AND PEOPLE GOT TIRED OF IT, and THATS why attendance dropped to the point that it was no longer financially worthwhile. I mean really, i know there is massive amounts of people on the internet (and irl) who doesn't think things through before they speak but ffs... you read what you want to read and then pick out the part you want to bitch about, missing the point entirely. Anyway, iam done now, i aint got the time to explain what should be obvious. BW died cause the lack of Attendance at tournaments and ratings on television, figure out your own reasons case they are the only ones you will listen to. and Savior was fucking boss during his prime, match fixing or not, his games 2006, early 2007, showcased a period of utter zerg dominance, never achieved before or after and that could only be achieved by him. Now all you people who doesn't care about the point are gonna bitch about how much better jaedong was ecs ecs.. the POINT however is still that Savior was much more DOMINANT. I'm out, and let your bitching commence. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
What else did you expect looking around BW forum all out of sudden? Let us delusional elitists bitch and please don't come back. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On November 21 2013 02:02 JustPassingBy wrote: Aren't these two posts contradicting each other? One claims that only one of them will travel to China, another claims that both will. Also I wanted to note that it took me five minutes to find this info in this thread because the vast majority of posts are about stuff that have nothing to do at all with the tournament itself... This thread was terribly derailed. I don't think the posts contradicted each other. One of them will travel to China and participate in the offline tournament. | ||
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Sum41
Chile345 Posts
On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote: What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! if you think like that about him for a mistake he commited, then you are worst than him | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Savior paired up with Metis (don't know him), and Move paired up with By.Hero Both teams were eventually eliminated, and did not qualify for the 2v2 offline tournament. I think Movie and Savior will have a go in the 1v1 online qualifiers as well, which is happening today. | ||
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MotherOfRunes
Germany2862 Posts
all those immature blind savi0r haters. i dont deny how badly he hurt the scene. BUT HE WAS A FUCKING KID. broodwar pros are fucking kids no matter how old they are. they speak like 10 year olds and think like 14year olds. how can a fucking kid not be allowed to do a mistake in his life????no matter how hard the mistake was....A FUCKING KID, a kid that knew nothing about life, blinded by money and success. driven into that horrible mistake. everybody fucking deserves a second cahnce. but it seems not in the oh so elite bw-scene. because he ruined your precious precious broodwar-scene you dont care about such things. burn him, hang bla bla bla bla. i know its horrible what happened, but fucking seriously grow up! everywhere everybody deserves a second chance, but not here, right? holy fuck edit: like many others said. if you dont wanna watch him, dont fucking watch him and stfu | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
if you think like that about him for a mistake he commited, then you are worst than him why isnt this guy banned already? Sigh. By Fenris' fangs, Pauline was being sarcastic! He was parodying the hating attitude that some people have. Cursed romanians. | ||
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MotherOfRunes
Germany2862 Posts
On November 21 2013 09:59 vOdToasT wrote: Sigh. By Fenris' fangs, Pauline was being sarcastic! He was parodying the hating attitude that some people have. Cursed romanians. edited my post. didnt check the link below his post sorry | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
I forgive, but I cannot keep forgetting when I see Savior openly playing (and profiting) the game I love, especially because he is related to the downfall of the whole BW scene. For this, I cannot support him. Maybe if he transitioned to a different life, I would fully support him as a person, but I cannot watch him play as a competitive pro-gamer and support him in the slightest. Someone said (to BisuDagger) "if it were Bisu, you would forget." If it were Bisu, I would be so heartbroken that I would initially stop watching the game (I barely watched (or just followed through battle reports) OSL's after Bisu got eliminated... so not having him in the scene, I wouldn't watch). Then if he returned to BW in any form, I would be reminded of the pain he caused me, and I wouldn't be able to watch him without feeling anger and remorse. There are so many more posts that I can respond to, but I'd rather not~ There are my two cents. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49585 Posts
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illusiongamer
Mexico377 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49585 Posts
On November 21 2013 10:38 illusiongamer wrote: wow these Chinese businessman try to attract viewers through controversy all publicity is good publicity I guess. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On November 21 2013 09:53 MotherOfRunes wrote: all those immature blind savi0r haters. i dont deny how badly he hurt the scene. BUT HE WAS A FUCKING KID. broodwar pros are fucking kids no matter how old they are. they speak like 10 year olds and think like 14year olds. how can a fucking kid not be allowed to do a mistake in his life????no matter how hard the mistake was....A FUCKING KID, a kid that knew nothing about life, blinded by money and success. driven into that horrible mistake. everybody fucking deserves a second cahnce. but it seems not in the oh so elite bw-scene. because he ruined your precious precious broodwar-scene you dont care about such things. burn him, hang bla bla bla bla. i know its horrible what happened, but fucking seriously grow up! everywhere everybody deserves a second chance, but not here, right? holy fuck edit: like many others said. if you dont wanna watch him, dont fucking watch him and stfu Someone's mad. I hope there's a Movie vs JayStar or Fengzi or whoever the Chinese hero is...the more chances we get to see top level Chinese players against players we know the better really wish the Chinese scene was a bit more accessible | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 20 2013 14:45 lemmata wrote: Yes. See this video at 27 minutes. It is in Korean, but it is as Hesmyrr wrote. I appreciate the link, although unfortunately I can't communicate in Korean. Do they say why the MBC Director told them to stop the special events (presumably to use as an excuse to ultimately shut the channel down?) - In other words, why did the director originally decide/want to shut down MBC Game Channel, even if it was relatively profitable still? Or, is there any other critical/less known (so to speak) information in this link? | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
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GTR
51363 Posts
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 21 2013 02:30 lemmata wrote: Exactly. Apparently, defending Savior impairs reading comprehension. It is either that or intentional ignorance. Sigh... Well, defending Savior in the context present in this thread, is a completely hopeless position (e.g. due to sufficient, available qualified facts). Consequently, the fact that someone would even attempt to do it, is necessarily indicative of a significant lack of knowledge and/or comprehension. The silver lining of these types of threads, is that it gives you a chance to identify those, who are likely significantly mentally deficient in some critical way. An informational benefit - for future reference. | ||
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
On November 21 2013 11:29 miercat wrote: I appreciate the link, although unfortunately I can't communicate in Korean. Do they say why the MBC Director told them to stop the special events (presumably to use as an excuse to ultimately shut the channel down?) - In other words, why did the director originally decide/want to shut down MBC Game Channel, even if it was relatively profitable still? Or, is there any other critical/less known (so to speak) information in this link? Fellow TL translator jumping in action here! Right at 27min LSW starts talking about MBC.Game Key points (too lazy to do word for word): - MBC Game did have internal issues and difficulties but those weren't really major factors in the switch to music channel - The dude in charge (President/CEO/Director/whatever) who made the switch to the music channel is in USA now (something overseas MBC work) - The financial situation wasn't too bad for MBC Game, in fact the channel could have continued, while majority of other MBC sub-channels like MBC Life MBC Everyone MBC Drama MBC Whatever were doing worse financially (most of those losing money instead of earning money) in fact LSW initially thought after the music switch rumours that MBC Life would be axed - LSW thinks if MBC Game endured that period of difficulty then it would be very well off now with new popular games like LoL - The switch to music kind of came suddenly after that prez/director saw a couple music-based variety shows (I Am Singer, SuperStar K, etc.) get high ratings and went like o shiez music is da way lets dip into that shit - Actually more details, the director had some unknown personal vendetta or some shit to kill MBC Game and push his MBC Music idea so he intentionally cancelled a bunch of profitable shit from MBC Game then was like SEE TOLD U MBC GAME LOSING MONEY and then they axed it. Yeah LSW said it a tad more mildly but that's the gist of it. At 30 min and on: - Who will fill MBC Game's shoes? Will someone eventually fill those shoes? LSW hopes that the all the players in the game broadcasting will continue to evolve, including cable (OGN) and internet (Afreeca, etc.) - LSW's fan cafe and how he's sorry to the fans because he doesn't actively participate in it Meh I think that's enough useful stuff? I'll actually watch the whole thing now seems like interesting personal talk with LSW. *edit: on second view, made a few corrections | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?" You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist. Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision? Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument. neo)nada fighting.... | ||
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Gescom
Canada3317 Posts
On November 21 2013 14:11 hp.Shell wrote: @Pro-savior people: If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?" You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist. Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision? Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument. neo)nada fighting.... I am not necessarily pro-Savior, but in late 2013 (after four years), I'm holding no qualms against him -- I'm willing to let bygones be bygones at this point. Brood War as a whole is of course more important than any single player. When did the attendance drop? Well, maybe it had something to do with the game being over ten years old? SC2 coming out? Other esports coming in to prominance? I attended the Korean Air OSL Finals (May2010) and it was absolutely mobbed. Thousands of people crammed into a hangar. Probably the biggest and most massive independent corporate sponsor that BW ever had (and eventually JinAir picking up a team years later...). This was well after the match fixing scandal. The SPL finals were the same way. Does everyone remember the whole "My OSL!" bullshit? I honestly feel like that affected BW more. I think MBC shut down as a purely business decision. I think the economy being hard hit had more of an effect. OGN, GOM, Kespa, Blizzard and others all made a lot of decisions that negatively affected the longevity of BW. I think a lot of bad shit for BW went down in 2009-2011, and the match fixing scandal, while certainly bad, wasn't the crux of the issue. Savior just makes a very, very easy scapegoat. BW had nowhere to go but down. At this point in SC2's lifespan, it is very much the same way. SC2 will die a slow painful death without a match-fixing scandal, the same as BW. People will try to blame Blizzard's implementation of the WCS system, or the something else, because people always need a scapegoat. The reality is just that nothing lasts forever. This issue of timing is so confusing to me. Earlier in the thread people are trying to say that matchfixing was a catalyst for the implementation of the Korean online curfew. Are you kidding me? Nope, it's not the rampant online addiction that is costing the Korean economy $50 million a year (including more deaths than you can count on one hand), it's the kid who ripped off $44 grand from online betting sites. Do you think the government of the country gives two shits about STARCRAFT? How naive can you be? I know StarCraft is important to you (and me), but in the grand scheme of things, in terms of the legislative process, it is smaller than a drop in a few dozen buckets. Governments creating policies for online behavior pretty much started around the globe in and around 2008 onwards. Take a look. You can't just decide that because something happened in the same year that there's a cause and effect link there. | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
If it was definitely a only-room-for-one-rts situation, then why were WC3 and BW allowed to coexist for so long? It seems most likely that Blizzard, in the moneygrabbing days of early SC2, was going to take enough from KeSPA's BW, that was the real economic problem for the game. Other games would continue without the blizzard tax, and the money situation for them would remain the same, all else equal. Savior just seemed to strike at the worst possible time. I was a fan of go.go and luxury, and look at where Sparkyz ended after the incident -- they were dissolved. As best I can sketch it, the (very abridged) timeline is this: May 2007 - announcement: SC2 development starting Feb 2010 - SC2 begins closed-beta May 2010 - rumors of match-fixing confirmed true. July 2010 - SC2 release Aug/Oct 2010 - eSTRO dissolves, IEG cites a move away from esports. Oct 2010 - Sparkyz merges with CJ Aug 2011 - FOX disbands shortly after NaDa's retirement Sep 2011 - OZ disbands in favor of physical sports. Feb 2012 - MBC disbands as proleague shifts to SC2 hybrd. You could argue either way, that SC2 ultimately killed BW, or that the match-fixing problems created a bad image for sponsors who then decided to stop sponsoring BW (some halting esports sponsorship altogether). Once some of the brands decided to leave, others such as FOX and OZ seemed to wait while their star players NaDa and Jaedong, among others, continued to play. But when the SC2 discussions were more heated, and FOX retired NaDa, FOX decided to disband, leaving OZ an easier decision to let go even holding on to Jaedong. OZ is probably the biggest indicator of an economic problem, but the quick disband after FOX suggests otherwise - that SC2's involvement meant the end of BW sponsorship - and esports sponsorship, for that matter (for OZ). Ultimately it was probably the fact that SC2 was named starcraft and not warcraft 4, that dealt the final blow to the pro BW scene in Korea. But when you have team sponsors that are just kinda playing along anyway, like OZ and ACE, and when you combine that with two other disbands that could be argued as being a result of the scandal (Sparkyz and eSTRO), then it all crumbles. The issue is rather complicated, but savior's and others' involvement in the BW shaming certainly played a key factor. | ||
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flashimba
225 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote: What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard. Cause one shares the same name while the other doesn't? | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote: What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. WC3 was killed by a mapmaker. While the scene wasn't as huge as BW, it had some following. And then, when Moon was dominating the leagues, a mapmaker at MBCGame secretly made new balance to the race Moon was playing at the time so that Moon would have harder time winning the games. This was discovered when players were practicing and noticed that the stats were different on those units. After that, WC3 scene in Korea died down a lot. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote: What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard. It's not SC2. It's League of Legends. OGN doesn't even broadcast SC2 anymore, all the bw time slots have been filled the LoL and ratings are better than ever. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Furaha
Germany271 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
Sure, you can forgive, and people deserve a second chance. That is if they apologize and show any remorse. | ||
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teflonsavior
Finland4 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49585 Posts
On November 21 2013 18:55 teflonsavior wrote: I'm just gonna not look at the past ten pages of wrathful/justified/unjustified/emotional/righteous arguments and instead, a simple question - any vods or results of said event? both of them failed to qualify in 2v2s, 1v1 qualifiers are sometime today. On November 21 2013 09:13 Cambium wrote: They played in the 2v2 qualifiers yesterday Savior paired up with Metis (don't know him), and Move paired up with By.Hero Both teams were eventually eliminated, and did not qualify for the 2v2 offline tournament. I think Movie and Savior will have a go in the 1v1 online qualifiers as well, which is happening today. | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2078 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On November 21 2013 18:55 teflonsavior wrote: I'm just gonna not look at the past ten pages of wrathful/justified/unjustified/emotional/righteous arguments and instead, a simple question - any vods or results of said event? Please look forward to quality event coverage provided by savior's devoted fans @ www.2busywithdota.yo.lo Sorry, I'm on my period. | ||
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chairmobile
United States111 Posts
On November 20 2013 03:44 supernovamaniac wrote: You have no clue how much his actions caused impact in Korea. 1. During court cases (after being kicked out from CJ), he stated that he was Progamer (not ex-Progamer) when asked what his profession was. This was after he was permanently banned from KeSPA 2. Shortly after the case, he started streaming on afreeca. If he learned from his mistakes, he shouldn't have streamed online, especially BW (This is more of Korean culture thing, if you want to make a side-by-side comparison with other examples). 3. After streaming for few weeks, he said he will stop streaming and go study. I guess that worked out well, as he's still streaming games and talking about coming back to BW. 4. The first time he was 'back' to BW, he offered paid coaching. If he at least cared about those who he have hurt, then he shouldn't touch BW for a very long time. His actions tell me otherwise, and thus I have no reason to forgive him for time being. What do you think his biggest fans want? To never see him again, or to have hope for his success again? This attitude makes no sense "he shouldn't touch bw for a long time". Your 1-4 points have absolutely no meaning. 1. Not everything was clear about him never progaming again. In his own eyes, he meant to still make a living off of gaming. Moreover, how are you even sure this was meant maliciously, as opposed to a slip of the tongue? I tell people I'm a certain age for a few weeks after a birthday because I'm so used to it. 2. He streamed games...so what? If people didn't want to watch, they didn't have to. This is just a case of him being resentful towards the system that (rightfully) tossed him out of KeSPA. I don't even see how anyone has any right to tell him to stream or not to stream. 3. He tried something else and didn't like it. What, the SC community gets to dictate his entire life now? Why does his not liking studying have anything whatsoever to do with anything? You might as well said 2. the sky is blue !!!1!!!!!! It's a fact that means pretty much nothing. 4. I suppose it would have been better for someone with little to no education or other employable skills to just live with his parents or go on welfare...Again, what is wrong with offering services to get by? SC is the only thing he knows; why would I care that he tries to support himself rather than getting handouts or some shit min wage job? I don't see how trying to earn money (which every other progamer is doing) is somehow disrespecting anyone. Again, if people didn't want his lessons or business, nobody was making them take his coaching. The only question in my mind is whether he is a good player. Past that, personality, past actions, whatever 'damage' he did to the community that died pretty much because of SC2 don't really matter. Kespa wants him out, fine, but this is a new tournament and I seriously, seriously doubt he'd ever pull match fixing or anything else illegit again. I know you're gonna respond with "he destroyed the bw scene 4ever, every time his face was shown during court proceedings the e-sports elephant had a limb amputated...". I have seen this argument many times and never seen any empirical evidence for it at all. If you have some, then I'll consider this argument something apart from meaningless chatter. | ||
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chairmobile
United States111 Posts
On November 21 2013 14:11 hp.Shell wrote: @Pro-savior people: If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?" You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist. Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision? Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument. neo)nada fighting.... No, I don't see that at all. A ton of the biggest and most attended/popular tournaments in BW history have been in the age of Flash vs Jaedong, Zero, Fantasy, etc. The OSLs and MSLs pitting FvJ were absolutely packed and hugely broadcasted. Looking back at crowd sizes in 2008, they look about the same even just months after the match-fixing scandal. I've never seen a shred of empirical evidence (viewer numbers, ogn ratings, anything) that ever proved "savior killed bw" or even "savior substantially damaged bw". Moreover, some idiots seem to be saying Savior intentionally destroyed BW, which is so moronic it's funny. What parasite ever wants its host to die? | ||
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chairmobile
United States111 Posts
On November 21 2013 06:06 hp.Shell wrote: I agree. No more "you should" when it comes to Savior. Let people feel how they want. It's not anyone's place to argue for how someone else is supposed to feel. Edit: If you were a fan, you would already be following him. Topics like this shouldn't be necessary to alert Savior fans of his appearances. I don't really care if somebody in China feels Savior should be allowed to play, that's for them to decide. Exactly freaking this. People are so damn self righteous and outraged at anything these days. It's his freedom to play. It's the tournament's freedom to allow him to play (hell, they could allow map hacking too, it's up to them. Nobody would watch, but...). If you don't like it, that's your freedom not to watch. Please don't go telling the world to act differently because you don't have the ability to move on from something that happened 3 years ago and wasn't even really that important. Nobody died. There are much worse things in the world than fixing matches for money. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19173 Posts
On November 21 2013 19:42 chairmobile wrote: Exactly freaking this. People are so damn self righteous and outraged at anything these days. It's his freedom to play. It's the tournament's freedom to allow him to play (hell, they could allow map hacking too, it's up to them. Nobody would watch, but...). If you don't like it, that's your freedom not to watch. Please don't go telling the world to act differently because you don't have the ability to move on from something that happened 3 years ago and wasn't even really that important. Nobody died. There are much worse things in the world than fixing matches for money. While I may agree with your points and will be someone who chooses to never watch him play, I don't think that merits closing a thread. Why are you for discourage discussion and debate? If you don't enjoy it then stop at the OP and don't read through the thread. But wether I like this subject or not should not be the reason to stop other people from talking about it, understanding it, and just plain arguing about it. | ||
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Plissken_2097
Spain628 Posts
On November 21 2013 19:42 chairmobile wrote: Exactly freaking this. People are so damn self righteous and outraged at anything these days. It's his freedom to play. It's the tournament's freedom to allow him to play (hell, they could allow map hacking too, it's up to them. Nobody would watch, but...). If you don't like it, that's your freedom not to watch. Please don't go telling the world to act differently because you don't have the ability to move on from something that happened 3 years ago and wasn't even really that important. Nobody died. There are much worse things in the world than fixing matches for money. Yeah, tell that to Hite Sparkyz. And don't bring the bad on the world here when this is about bw, and on bw related things, match-fixing it's one the worst things it could happen to it. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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Operations
115 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote: What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard. If it was definitely a only-room-for-one-rts situation, then why were WC3 and BW allowed to coexist for so long? It seems most likely that Blizzard, in the moneygrabbing days of early SC2, was going to take enough from KeSPA's BW, that was the real economic problem for the game. Other games would continue without the blizzard tax, and the money situation for them would remain the same, all else equal. Savior just seemed to strike at the worst possible time. I was a fan of go.go and luxury, and look at where Sparkyz ended after the incident -- they were dissolved. As best I can sketch it, the (very abridged) timeline is this: May 2007 - announcement: SC2 development starting Feb 2010 - SC2 begins closed-beta May 2010 - rumors of match-fixing confirmed true. July 2010 - SC2 release Aug/Oct 2010 - eSTRO dissolves, IEG cites a move away from esports. Oct 2010 - Sparkyz merges with CJ Aug 2011 - FOX disbands shortly after NaDa's retirement Sep 2011 - OZ disbands in favor of physical sports. Feb 2012 - MBC disbands as proleague shifts to SC2 hybrd. You could argue either way, that SC2 ultimately killed BW, or that the match-fixing problems created a bad image for sponsors who then decided to stop sponsoring BW (some halting esports sponsorship altogether). Once some of the brands decided to leave, others such as FOX and OZ seemed to wait while their star players NaDa and Jaedong, among others, continued to play. But when the SC2 discussions were more heated, and FOX retired NaDa, FOX decided to disband, leaving OZ an easier decision to let go even holding on to Jaedong. OZ is probably the biggest indicator of an economic problem, but the quick disband after FOX suggests otherwise - that SC2's involvement meant the end of BW sponsorship - and esports sponsorship, for that matter (for OZ). Ultimately it was probably the fact that SC2 was named starcraft and not warcraft 4, that dealt the final blow to the pro BW scene in Korea. But when you have team sponsors that are just kinda playing along anyway, like OZ and ACE, and when you combine that with two other disbands that could be argued as being a result of the scandal (Sparkyz and eSTRO), then it all crumbles. The issue is rather complicated, but savior's and others' involvement in the BW shaming certainly played a key factor. What if blizzard arranged the match fixing scandal to give the final blow to BW and pay savior and his crew $$$ in return? I wouldn't be surprised by that. User was warned for this post | ||
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Plissken_2097
Spain628 Posts
I would have a really hard time believing someone defending savior if they ever really considered the whole picture and thought about all the consequences and analyses his whole attitude. I presume that people just defend him because they lack the brain to think what match-fixing really means and they only see all these hatred towards the match fixers as a rolling snowball, getting bigger just because people have reasons to hate, then the others are just joining to the hate train. But they are the cool sheep of the herd, and have to stand out somehow and tell the world how wrong they are. Lacking any knowledge, understanding of the situation or valid points it's absolutely not necessary for this endeavour, it seems. First things first, understand what match-fixing means. Pro-gamers are in the business for the competition. Competition consists on two, or more individuals, giving out their guts and squeezing their abilities to the maximum to best the opposing ones. For that and to maintain their skill level up to the people on the top, they need to practice. A lot. This means mostly giving up their lives in favour of the game, and training, thinking and breathing about the game. It's quite the sacrifice if you ask me. Then comes the match-fixing factor. What does it mean all the effort paid when people are just giving up games for their profit? What's the point on winning a game, giving the best out of you against an opponent that doesn't even bothered to win? How do you feel that after hard weeks of training, play and finally achieving a victory, afterwards knowing it was all meaningless, as the opponent just throwed the match even before it started? Match-fixing totally pisses on the dreams and hopes of newcomers and disrespects all the established players, and most importantly it's a clear fuck you to the team that pay them and provides the environment for them to keep up with the rest. What about the fan view point? How do you feel after cheering for your favourite player through all the game and realizing he was not even trying? It's just ridiculous that some people can ignore or not think about all this. Savior might have been young, but no doubt that as a progamer, he was no stranger to all the meaning of competition and all the points above. Youth doesn't mean lack of wits or foreseeing ability. Doing what he was doing had most than obvious consequences, if caught. Obviously he isn't stupid, he didn't want to get caught, but still he surely knew the consequences, and still kept on. The consequences would not hit only him, but all the industry, and yet he kept on. What you can take of that? That once he stopped winning and getting money, he didn't give a shit about the whole industry, his team mates, his friends, his coaches, the game he presumably "loved". He only wanted more money. This is the guy you're defending, a selfish prick. But now it's cool, because holding hatred for more than 3 years it's such fanaticism... He shat on everything his seniors had established. After years of precarious conditions for the teams, they passion for the game and the effort paid off and sponsors stepped in to the scene. Really on that point can't elaborate more than that is explained on this video, which it appears in every savior discussion and seems like so few actually take the time to watch it. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1htnkAiKdzU He jeopardized the future that naive youngsters invested playing non-stop the game while putting at risk their studies and their future. Seriously... I don't think there's a need to bring up more to make people at least a bit more aware of the reasons of the hatred. | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 22 2013 00:53 Operations wrote: What if blizzard arranged the match fixing scandal to give the final blow to BW and pay savior and his crew $$$ in return? I wouldn't be surprised by that. Really? lol | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On November 21 2013 19:37 chairmobile wrote: No, I don't see that at all. A ton of the biggest and most attended/popular tournaments in BW history have been in the age of Flash vs Jaedong, Zero, Fantasy, etc. The OSLs and MSLs pitting FvJ were absolutely packed and hugely broadcasted. Looking back at crowd sizes in 2008, they look about the same even just months after the match-fixing scandal. I've never seen a shred of empirical evidence (viewer numbers, ogn ratings, anything) that ever proved "savior killed bw" or even "savior substantially damaged bw". Moreover, some idiots seem to be saying Savior intentionally destroyed BW, which is so moronic it's funny. What parasite ever wants its host to die? Pro BW didn't die because the fans left, it died because the financial backing disappeared. If you bothered to watch the subbed episode of After Talk where Kingdom, Kim Carrier, and Um JaeKyung discuss match fixing you would have realized this. Match fixing destroyed the reputation of the competition just like it's done to the Serie A and other leagues/teams around the world. The sponsors of the three leagues before match fixing, and in their final seasons: Proleague: Shinhan Bank -> SK Planet OSL: Korean Air -> Tving MSL: Hana Bank -> ABC Mart You don't need to be an expert on S. Korean business to see the downward slope. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 21 2013 13:48 OpticalShot wrote: Fellow TL translator jumping in action here! Right at 27min LSW starts talking about MBC.Game Key points (too lazy to do word for word): - MBC Game did have internal issues and difficulties but those weren't really major factors in the switch to music channel - The dude in charge (President/CEO/Director/whatever) who made the switch to the music channel is in USA now (something overseas MBC work) - The financial situation wasn't too bad for MBC Game, in fact the channel could have continued, while majority of other MBC sub-channels like MBC Life MBC Everyone MBC Drama MBC Whatever were doing worse financially (most of those losing money instead of earning money) in fact LSW initially thought after the music switch rumours that MBC Life would be axed - LSW thinks if MBC Game endured that period of difficulty then it would be very well off now with new popular games like LoL - The switch to music kind of came suddenly after that prez/director saw a couple music-based variety shows (I Am Singer, SuperStar K, etc.) get high ratings and went like o shiez music is da way lets dip into that shit - Actually more details, the director had some unknown personal vendetta or some shit to kill MBC Game and push his MBC Music idea so he intentionally cancelled a bunch of profitable shit from MBC Game then was like SEE TOLD U MBC GAME LOSING MONEY and then they axed it. Yeah LSW said it a tad more mildly but that's the gist of it. At 30 min and on: - Who will fill MBC Game's shoes? Will someone eventually fill those shoes? LSW hopes that the all the players in the game broadcasting will continue to evolve, including cable (OGN) and internet (Afreeca, etc.) - LSW's fan cafe and how he's sorry to the fans because he doesn't actively participate in it Meh I think that's enough useful stuff? I'll actually watch the whole thing now seems like interesting personal talk with LSW. *edit: on second view, made a few corrections Thanks for the translation : ) Seems like many useful stuff. I had a feeling the reason was going to be complete BS (given that MBC Game was a relatively successful channel) and apparently it was.  It is good that the director is no longer working for MBC (maybe a more reasonable position can surface: take out MBC Life, and bring back MBC Game), but he can go to hell (if it was true).  And consider, the channel itself is an inanimate entity - if you have a vendetta, at the very least, find a more direct way to pursue it. Fucking asshole.Does anyone know if he got fired/resigned due to backlash from this decision? Was there any backlash from Korean fans, based on this information being relatively known in Korea (from shows like this)? Thanks, again. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1436 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 22 2013 03:55 koreasilver wrote: I can't tell what's worse. The hysterical scapegoating or the asinine apologia. Both of them rely on so much speculative bullshit that it's just meaningless. I honestly wouldn't take anyone's accounts seriously about this topic on this forum from anyone except Rekrul and Sea. Well, according to this logic, the opinion you just stated is meaningless, as would be Rekrul's and Sea's accounts. In short, poor logic, and a poor opinion. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
This shit is better than TV. Seriously, if no one is stealing this script then its too bad for you. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 22 2013 06:47 miercat wrote: Well, according to this logic, the opinion you just stated is meaningless, as would be Rekrul's and Sea's accounts. In short, poor logic, and a poor opinion. Yeah, except that Rekrul actually had connections with people that were in the thick of it, and Sea was actually a progamer inside the MBC team and thus they actually had some direct access to the truth. Rekrul was the one that broke the matchfixing story to TL before it actually became an official story and at the time MOST of the posters on TL thought Rekrul was just bullshitting. So no, there is no break in logic or opinion since these two actually had access to things of substance instead of relying pretty much entirely on fucking nonsense speculation that would make North American conspiracy theorists proud. They weren't fed secondary narrative accounts off of crackpot Korean netizen blogs. | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 22 2013 07:32 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, except that Rekrul actually had connections with people that were in the thick of it, and Sea was actually a progamer inside the MBC team and thus they actually had some direct access to the truth. Rekrul was the one that broke the matchfixing story to TL before it actually became an official story and at the time MOST of the posters on TL thought Rekrul was just bullshitting. So no, there is no break in logic or opinion since these two actually had access to things of substance instead of relying pretty much entirely on fucking nonsense speculation that would make North American conspiracy theorists proud. They weren't fed secondary narrative accounts off of crackpot Korean netizen blogs. Fair enough. But whether there is a logical break or not, turns out to be inconsequential, if the original premise (that general analysis of the situation necessarily relies on speculation, and that Sea's and Rekrul's accounts are necessarily any more meaningful than anyone else's) is not accurate: Personally I have not read, nor heard of any secondary accounts of Korean netizen blogs, however, there have been a number of statements from individuals within the industry (with direct access to the truth - presumably as meaningful or more meaningful in this situation than Sea or Rekrul), and a number of relevant documented occurrences, that have been quite concrete, and as far as I know, have not been disputed. As far as situations go, it seems fairly open, and at the very least - sufficiently open to make the only reasonable conclusion. Unless Sea, Rekrul, have a huge bombshell information, that no one else knows, or that no one else has leaked in all this time, anything more that they know, will not be of any real significance. There are already enough commonly-known sufficiently-powerful, and apparently undisputed facts, to make the only reasonable conclusion. I'm not exactly sure what you know, or don't know, or what you understand or don't understand, but again, as far as situations in life go, this one is very likely more than clear enough(with all the relevant knowledge, and the ability to understand it). | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
There are eight teams in total, six of which qualified through various tournaments. One team with Beast and Pix were invited as special Korean team. The other team is 334 (Chinese) and Savior. 334 is sort of an SC celeb in China being very good at 2v2 and currently doing some commentating with PLU and SCNTV (event host). 1v1 players will be determined in a few days. There will probably also be eight, with four qualifying from various online tournaments, two invited Koreans, and two special seed designations by the sponsor. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
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icystorage
Jollibee19343 Posts
On November 21 2013 23:59 Golondrin wrote: Yeah, tell that to Hite Sparkyz. And don't bring the bad on the world here when this is about bw, and on bw related things, match-fixing it's one the worst things it could happen to it. sparkyz  it was depressing that most of hite's players were into match fixing ._. heck, they even told the opponents of what their teammates build gonna use. i remember that go.go told Leta's opponent that he was gonna go 2 fac or something (vague memory). | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 22 2013 17:07 Monsen wrote: Weak move to allow them back in. I guess "banned for life" isn't that long after all. Despicable. mOvie never match fixed KeSPA were the ones who banned sAviOr for life, not these chinese guys | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
On November 22 2013 13:49 icystorage wrote: sparkyz it was depressing that most of hite's players were into match fixing ._. heck, they even told the opponents of what their teammates build gonna use. i remember that go.go told Leta's opponent that he was gonna go 2 fac or something (vague memory).Yes he told that to Hwasin. He still lost the game, which put him in a difficult situation ;; Btw does the game have been played ? | ||
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TelecoM
United States10660 Posts
On November 22 2013 17:04 Antisocialmunky wrote: I wonder what would have happened if the match fixing didn't come out until after the SC2 switch and how much drama it would have caused in SC2 General. lol , that would be insane! | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On November 22 2013 18:54 Glioburd wrote: Yes he told that to Hwasin. He still lost the game, which put him in a difficult situation ;; Btw does the game have been played ? 2v2 online qualifiers yes 1v1 online qualifiers still ongoing Main event happens at month end | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Epoxide
Magic Woods9326 Posts
On November 22 2013 19:40 Caihead wrote: I guess he is allowed to play in China so that's cool? Is he even good at BW nowadays? Look forward to Movie for sure though. No he has been pretty bad compared to the current SOSPA players for over 2 years now. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
On November 22 2013 02:27 miercat wrote: Does anyone know if he got fired/resigned due to backlash from this decision? Was there any backlash from Korean fans, based on this information being relatively known in Korea (from shows like this)? The gaming is viewed way too negatively by Korean adult population for this to be considered unacceptable. Just look at the shutdown law and how the general media portrays gaming (prior to this, MBC News had ridiculously biased piece with well-known "study" where they suddenly turned off the power of PC Bang, saw people get angry in response, then determined that to be proof that gaming encourages violence). To my understanding most shrugged 'expected' and moved on. Quite ironic for mecca of e-sports. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3317 Posts
OSL: Korean Air -> Tving MSL: Hana Bank -> ABC Mart<< Korean Air (multiple times) was well after matching fixing, and subsidiary Jin Air is still sponsoring esports. Get your facts straight. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 22 2013 02:27 miercat wrote: (prior to this, MBC News had ridiculously biased piece with well-known "study" where they suddenly turned off the power of PC Bang, saw people get angry in response, then determined that to be proof that gaming encourages violence). HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | ||
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Epoxide
Magic Woods9326 Posts
walk onto football field. shank football. you guys are mad? clearly football encourages violence! | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On November 23 2013 03:14 Epoxide wrote: walk onto football field. shank football. you guys are mad? clearly football encourages violence! Somebody do a similar "study" on the New York stock exchange PLEASE. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
This experiment was just filled with lols. But it also explains how the Korean society tries to tie gaming with bad things. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On November 23 2013 05:04 jinorazi wrote: Well I hear cheating is standard in china so support of savior I don't mind. (Chinese parents and students protested for right to cheat recently) What? China does have an epidemic problem with cheating but that's with in another field (academics) and one linked with vastly more complicated issues and moral grey areas. + Show Spoiler + And this "protesting for right to cheat" is completely sensationalist, they were protesting the fact that external monitors were brought in and students were frisked and pressured which obviously would have a negative effect on them when you consider that it's not standard protocol at all, as well as the fact that it's selective probing against cheating, this wasn't enforced nation wide, only in one city at one school. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 23 2013 09:32 Antisocialmunky wrote: You know, now that I think about it... the only Chinese BW semi pro gameplay I've ever seen were like three different Chinese Zergs proxy sunken rushing Koreans. I saw a chinese Terran own GoOdy in WCG | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
Pretty sure I saw a Chinese Protoss own sAviOr in WCG. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
i saw a bunch of not-so-known german guys own GoOdy in various games ^^ | ||
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miercat
394 Posts
On November 23 2013 09:32 Antisocialmunky wrote: You know, now that I think about it... the only Chinese BW semi pro gameplay I've ever seen were like three different Chinese Zergs proxy sunken rushing Koreans. Watch some of the WCG games with PJ (Former Chinese BW Pro). He beats EffOrt, comes one A-move away from essentially beating Bisu, and also has a good chance to beat Stork (in series play). I watched these a while ago, so my memory is not perfect, but PJ definitely seemed equivalent or better than some of the best Koreans at the time. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49585 Posts
Chinese Terran is probably the most bizarre thing I've heard in my life. I thought chinese only play zerg and protoss. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 23 2013 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: Chinese Terran is probably the most bizarre thing I've heard in my life. I thought chinese only play zerg and protoss. I know, lol | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On November 23 2013 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: Chinese Terran is probably the most bizarre thing I've heard in my life. I thought chinese only play zerg and protoss. well it weren't exactly masses of high level chinese Terran layers, but i remember Super fondly. he was rlly good. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On November 23 2013 12:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: Chinese Terran is probably the most bizarre thing I've heard in my life. I thought chinese only play zerg and protoss. Does that mean a chinese zerg off raced terran and owned GoOdy at WCG? | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 23 2013 12:04 miercat wrote: Watch some of the WCG games with PJ (Former Chinese BW Pro). He beats EffOrt, comes one A-move away from essentially beating Bisu, and also has a good chance to beat Stork (in series play). I watched these a while ago, so my memory is not perfect, but PJ definitely seemed equivalent or better than some of the best Koreans at the time. I remember that game. PJ really should have won vs Bisu. He lost a won game. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
MA JAE YOON MA JAE YOON MA JAE YOON | ||
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AleXoundOS
Georgia457 Posts
http://sc.scntv.com/vod/yzsc/2013-11-23/5545.html http://sc.scntv.com/vod/yzsc/2013-11-23/5546.html Here is list of vods containing games with Movie, hero, Savior, Jaystar and others: http://vod.scntv.com/ Also this site hosts reps of 1v1 and 2v2 games and some schedule of casts. We should definitely cover such events, at least with schedule, stream links and results. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
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