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On November 21 2013 09:53 MotherOfRunes wrote:
all those immature blind savi0r haters. i dont deny how badly he hurt the scene. BUT HE WAS A FUCKING KID. broodwar pros are fucking kids no matter how old they are. they speak like 10 year olds and think like 14year olds.
how can a fucking kid not be allowed to do a mistake in his life????no matter how hard the mistake was....A FUCKING KID, a kid that knew nothing about life, blinded by money and success. driven into that horrible mistake. everybody fucking deserves a second cahnce. but it seems not in the oh so elite bw-scene. because he ruined your precious precious broodwar-scene you dont care about such things. burn him, hang bla bla bla bla. i know its horrible what happened, but fucking seriously grow up! everywhere everybody deserves a second chance, but not here, right? holy fuck
edit: like many others said. if you dont wanna watch him, dont fucking watch him and stfu
Someone's mad.
I hope there's a Movie vs JayStar or Fengzi or whoever the Chinese hero is...the more chances we get to see top level Chinese players against players we know the better  really wish the Chinese scene was a bit more accessible
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On November 20 2013 14:45 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 11:34 miercat wrote:On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote:
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known.
OH. MY. GOD. ... Is there source for this information? Yes. See this video at 27 minutes. It is in Korean, but it is as Hesmyrr wrote.
I appreciate the link, although unfortunately I can't communicate in Korean. Do they say why the MBC Director told them to stop the special events (presumably to use as an excuse to ultimately shut the channel down?) - In other words, why did the director originally decide/want to shut down MBC Game Channel, even if it was relatively profitable still?
Or, is there any other critical/less known (so to speak) information in this link?
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51363 Posts
music has a wider outreach than video games, better advertising potential etc etc
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On November 21 2013 02:30 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 00:54 supernovamaniac wrote:On November 21 2013 00:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 21 2013 00:29 StarStruck wrote:
That's odd considering all this time I've been saying shades of grey. Please give what you read a little more thought before posting because it doesn't seem like you are reading what people are saying to you at all and instead are projecting stuff non-stop. Whatever, you quoted me and said the same things again, without me disagreeing with you in the first place, it is kinda ironic that you would blame me for that though. On November 21 2013 00:30 supernovamaniac wrote:
The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here.
Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing.
No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality. @ starstruck: I would like you answering my pm nonetheless, i just can't see why you would imply such things, ty. Great because the post you directly replied to in the first place says that. /sarcasm. Nobody IMPLIED that he was involved in match fixing intentionally TO DESTROY BW. Rather, people are saying that he intentionally took part in match fixing, which resulted other things. Exactly. Apparently, defending Savior impairs reading comprehension. It is either that or intentional ignorance. Sigh...
Well, defending Savior in the context present in this thread, is a completely hopeless position (e.g. due to sufficient, available qualified facts). Consequently, the fact that someone would even attempt to do it, is necessarily indicative of a significant lack of knowledge and/or comprehension. The silver lining of these types of threads, is that it gives you a chance to identify those, who are likely significantly mentally deficient in some critical way. An informational benefit - for future reference.
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On November 21 2013 11:29 miercat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 14:45 lemmata wrote:On November 20 2013 11:34 miercat wrote:On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote:
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known.
OH. MY. GOD. ... Is there source for this information? Yes. See this video at 27 minutes. It is in Korean, but it is as Hesmyrr wrote. I appreciate the link, although unfortunately I can't communicate in Korean. Do they say why the MBC Director told them to stop the special events (presumably to use as an excuse to ultimately shut the channel down?) - In other words, why did the director originally decide/want to shut down MBC Game Channel, even if it was relatively profitable still? Or, is there any other critical/less known (so to speak) information in this link?
Fellow TL translator jumping in action here!
Right at 27min LSW starts talking about MBC.Game
Key points (too lazy to do word for word):
- MBC Game did have internal issues and difficulties but those weren't really major factors in the switch to music channel
- The dude in charge (President/CEO/Director/whatever) who made the switch to the music channel is in USA now (something overseas MBC work)
- The financial situation wasn't too bad for MBC Game, in fact the channel could have continued, while majority of other MBC sub-channels like MBC Life MBC Everyone MBC Drama MBC Whatever were doing worse financially (most of those losing money instead of earning money) in fact LSW initially thought after the music switch rumours that MBC Life would be axed
- LSW thinks if MBC Game endured that period of difficulty then it would be very well off now with new popular games like LoL
- The switch to music kind of came suddenly after that prez/director saw a couple music-based variety shows (I Am Singer, SuperStar K, etc.) get high ratings and went like o shiez music is da way lets dip into that shit
- Actually more details, the director had some unknown personal vendetta or some shit to kill MBC Game and push his MBC Music idea so he intentionally cancelled a bunch of profitable shit from MBC Game then was like SEE TOLD U MBC GAME LOSING MONEY and then they axed it. Yeah LSW said it a tad more mildly but that's the gist of it.
At 30 min and on:
- Who will fill MBC Game's shoes? Will someone eventually fill those shoes? LSW hopes that the all the players in the game broadcasting will continue to evolve, including cable (OGN) and internet (Afreeca, etc.)
- LSW's fan cafe and how he's sorry to the fans because he doesn't actively participate in it
Meh I think that's enough useful stuff? I'll actually watch the whole thing now seems like interesting personal talk with LSW.
*edit: on second view, made a few corrections
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@Pro-savior people:
If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?"
You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist.
Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision?
Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument.
neo)nada fighting....
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On November 21 2013 14:11 hp.Shell wrote:
@Pro-savior people:
If you agree that savior was hugely responsible (along with all others involved) for the death of pro bw, how could you forgive him? Because savior is more important than bw in your eyes? What about all the potential saviors, flashes, storks, bisus, fantasys, jaedongs, bests, paralyzes, rains, letas, calms, kals, jangbis, greats, soulkeys etc... who you might never see playing the current top players and each other? What about the Bo7 OSL final "neo.Bisu vs Savior[nEo.gm] on Blended Fortresses SE?"
You'll never see that... because of attendance? Please! Had BW been allowed to survive alongside SC2, there would be a larger scene today, and perhaps the pro scene would still exist.
Tell me, when did attendance drop? During what period? Could it perhaps have been during the period of the match-fixing scandal, then finally dealt a vital blow by KeSPA's decision to allow SC2 to take over? Tell me, did match-fixing influence KeSPA's decision?
Wow, I thought I wouldn't get involved in this. I guess I still love BW too much. It's so painful to even see this argument.
neo)nada fighting....
I am not necessarily pro-Savior, but in late 2013 (after four years), I'm holding no qualms against him -- I'm willing to let bygones be bygones at this point. Brood War as a whole is of course more important than any single player.
When did the attendance drop? Well, maybe it had something to do with the game being over ten years old? SC2 coming out? Other esports coming in to prominance?
I attended the Korean Air OSL Finals (May2010) and it was absolutely mobbed. Thousands of people crammed into a hangar. Probably the biggest and most massive independent corporate sponsor that BW ever had (and eventually JinAir picking up a team years later...). This was well after the match fixing scandal. The SPL finals were the same way.
Does everyone remember the whole "My OSL!" bullshit? I honestly feel like that affected BW more. I think MBC shut down as a purely business decision. I think the economy being hard hit had more of an effect. OGN, GOM, Kespa, Blizzard and others all made a lot of decisions that negatively affected the longevity of BW. I think a lot of bad shit for BW went down in 2009-2011, and the match fixing scandal, while certainly bad, wasn't the crux of the issue.
Savior just makes a very, very easy scapegoat. BW had nowhere to go but down. At this point in SC2's lifespan, it is very much the same way. SC2 will die a slow painful death without a match-fixing scandal, the same as BW. People will try to blame Blizzard's implementation of the WCS system, or the something else, because people always need a scapegoat. The reality is just that nothing lasts forever.
This issue of timing is so confusing to me. Earlier in the thread people are trying to say that matchfixing was a catalyst for the implementation of the Korean online curfew. Are you kidding me? Nope, it's not the rampant online addiction that is costing the Korean economy $50 million a year (including more deaths than you can count on one hand), it's the kid who ripped off $44 grand from online betting sites. Do you think the government of the country gives two shits about STARCRAFT? How naive can you be? I know StarCraft is important to you (and me), but in the grand scheme of things, in terms of the legislative process, it is smaller than a drop in a few dozen buckets. Governments creating policies for online behavior pretty much started around the globe in and around 2008 onwards. Take a look. You can't just decide that because something happened in the same year that there's a cause and effect link there.
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What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard.
If it was definitely a only-room-for-one-rts situation, then why were WC3 and BW allowed to coexist for so long?
It seems most likely that Blizzard, in the moneygrabbing days of early SC2, was going to take enough from KeSPA's BW, that was the real economic problem for the game. Other games would continue without the blizzard tax, and the money situation for them would remain the same, all else equal.
Savior just seemed to strike at the worst possible time. I was a fan of go.go and luxury, and look at where Sparkyz ended after the incident -- they were dissolved.
As best I can sketch it, the (very abridged) timeline is this:
May 2007 - announcement: SC2 development starting
Feb 2010 - SC2 begins closed-beta
May 2010 - rumors of match-fixing confirmed true.
July 2010 - SC2 release
Aug/Oct 2010 - eSTRO dissolves, IEG cites a move away from esports.
Oct 2010 - Sparkyz merges with CJ
Aug 2011 - FOX disbands shortly after NaDa's retirement
Sep 2011 - OZ disbands in favor of physical sports.
Feb 2012 - MBC disbands as proleague shifts to SC2 hybrd.
You could argue either way, that SC2 ultimately killed BW, or that the match-fixing problems created a bad image for sponsors who then decided to stop sponsoring BW (some halting esports sponsorship altogether). Once some of the brands decided to leave, others such as FOX and OZ seemed to wait while their star players NaDa and Jaedong, among others, continued to play. But when the SC2 discussions were more heated, and FOX retired NaDa, FOX decided to disband, leaving OZ an easier decision to let go even holding on to Jaedong. OZ is probably the biggest indicator of an economic problem, but the quick disband after FOX suggests otherwise - that SC2's involvement meant the end of BW sponsorship - and esports sponsorship, for that matter (for OZ).
Ultimately it was probably the fact that SC2 was named starcraft and not warcraft 4, that dealt the final blow to the pro BW scene in Korea. But when you have team sponsors that are just kinda playing along anyway, like OZ and ACE, and when you combine that with two other disbands that could be argued as being a result of the scandal (Sparkyz and eSTRO), then it all crumbles.
The issue is rather complicated, but savior's and others' involvement in the BW shaming certainly played a key factor.
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On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote:
What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard.
Cause one shares the same name while the other doesn't?
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On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote:
What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2.
WC3 was killed by a mapmaker.
While the scene wasn't as huge as BW, it had some following.
And then, when Moon was dominating the leagues, a mapmaker at MBCGame secretly made new balance to the race Moon was playing at the time so that Moon would have harder time winning the games.
This was discovered when players were practicing and noticed that the stats were different on those units.
After that, WC3 scene in Korea died down a lot.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:07 hp.Shell wrote:
What I don't understand is how BW survived WC3 and not SC2. True, the timing may have been right for SC2 to take over, but the issue is savior himself. Did he or not have an impact on the decision to keep BW in the proscene? The economic situation is a bit of a stretch for me. I'm not well acquainted with WC3's health as an esport at the time of the BW/SC2 decision. But it seems that if it were really an economic problem, the other Korean games would have been hit just as hard.
It's not SC2. It's League of Legends. OGN doesn't even broadcast SC2 anymore, all the bw time slots have been filled the LoL and ratings are better than ever.
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SC2 is only popular with the hardcore crowd in Korea, LoL is king in China and Korea. I mean WC3 is more popular than SC2 in China, so it shows you something.
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Everyone that seriously claims that Savior was the reason for the death of professional BW in South Korea is beyond delusion. If we could make a living definition of "scapegoat" on TL.net, then Savior would be it. There's a delicious kind of irony that some of the Koreans and other East Asians on TL.net put out when they say "oh, Westerner's don't understand the culture..." as an easy response to give them some kind of imaginary foothold and authority to their arguments when the amount of hyperbole, conspiracy theories, and the machinations of Korean netizen hiveminds do far more to distort truths and prop up fanciful narratives than many foreign observations. One must always be suspicious of Korean netizens regarding any controversial matter.
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Anyone knows if there are replays/vods available?
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Savior was one of the reasons. And it's not like Bw-fans are on good terms with blizzard either (or kespa for that matter).
Sure, you can forgive, and people deserve a second chance. That is if they apologize and show any remorse.
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I'm just gonna not look at the past ten pages of wrathful/justified/unjustified/emotional/righteous arguments and instead, a simple question - any vods or results of said event?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49585 Posts
On November 21 2013 18:55 teflonsavior wrote:
I'm just gonna not look at the past ten pages of wrathful/justified/unjustified/emotional/righteous arguments and instead, a simple question - any vods or results of said event?
both of them failed to qualify in 2v2s, 1v1 qualifiers are sometime today.
On November 21 2013 09:13 Cambium wrote:
They played in the 2v2 qualifiers yesterday
Savior paired up with Metis (don't know him), and
Move paired up with By.Hero
Both teams were eventually eliminated, and did not qualify for the 2v2 offline tournament.
I think Movie and Savior will have a go in the 1v1 online qualifiers as well, which is happening today.
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Funny but controversial at the same time.
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On November 21 2013 18:55 teflonsavior wrote:
I'm just gonna not look at the past ten pages of wrathful/justified/unjustified/emotional/righteous arguments and instead, a simple question - any vods or results of said event?
Please look forward to quality event coverage provided by savior's devoted fans @ www.2busywithdota.yo.lo
Sorry, I'm on my period.
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EPT
