On November 21 2013 00:29 StarStruck wrote: That's odd considering all this time I've been saying shades of grey. Please give what you read a little more thought before posting because it doesn't seem like you are reading what people are saying to you at all and instead are projecting stuff non-stop.
Whatever, you quoted me and said the same things again, without me disagreeing with you in the first place, it is kinda ironic that you would blame me for that though.
On November 21 2013 00:30 supernovamaniac wrote: The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here.
Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing.
No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality.
@ starstruck: I would like you answering my pm nonetheless, i just can't see why you would imply such things, ty.
Imply? Imply? LOL at the irony because that's what we're thinking about you. When you say you will stop posting in this thread that doesn't really change anything because I'm still going to have to deal with you elsewhere, which has become quite the norm. The generalizations do need to stop and I'm glad you were more specific in your last post, but yeah we're going around in circles still.
How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it.
Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned.
On November 21 2013 00:29 StarStruck wrote: That's odd considering all this time I've been saying shades of grey. Please give what you read a little more thought before posting because it doesn't seem like you are reading what people are saying to you at all and instead are projecting stuff non-stop.
Whatever, you quoted me and said the same things again, without me disagreeing with you in the first place, it is kinda ironic that you would blame me for that though.
On November 21 2013 00:30 supernovamaniac wrote: The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here.
Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing.
No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality.
@ starstruck: I would like you answering my pm nonetheless, i just can't see why you would imply such things, ty.
Great because the post you directly replied to in the first place says that. /sarcasm.
Nobody IMPLIED that he was involved in match fixing intentionally TO DESTROY BW.
Rather, people are saying that he intentionally took part in match fixing, which resulted other things.
I am of the opinion that all pro-Savior and anti-Savior thread should automatically be closed. People who want to watch him can go watch him and vice versa, end of the story, but instead we always get this stupid cesspool whenever the topic is brought up.
I'm always torn by this. Man i read so much stuff about this and my opinions changed from time to time.
I just love to watch his past games from time to time. The guy was my fucking hero when i was young. He sat for a long time with Boxer on my player to love and idols.
At times i was pumped to hear he will play. But then i realised i can't watch his game because he is not whar he used to be. He was good, he was the FREAKING BEST ! But he blew it. Period.
When you understand the korean standpoint, yeah i understand some of them don't even want to say his name. When Lance Armstrong was considered guilty he had to pay back money (i think) and give back all his title and had been banned from cycling sports for life (i think). So even if i loved that guy at some time. No he can't have a second chance.
Does TeamLiquid need to not cover tournaments or news with SaviOr ? I don't know. In a sense i feel that they shouldn't but it could hurt tournaments. Do we want to hurt tournaments because they want to let SaviOr play... Man that's too complicated for me to have an opinion (because i can't as hell put good arguments on the table).
I was a SaviOr fan. Today i'm a fresh newser for a little french clan. But i won't as hell cover news with SaviOr in it.
We want E-sports to be on the same page as sports ? We all do right ? If so, you can't say SaviOr can have a second chance.
Let the man play. Just because Kespa, an organization infamously rigid, uncaring, and demanding about their players, condemns a 22 year old kid to public shaming and a lifetime of humiliation doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play the game he loves.
On November 20 2013 11:56 endy wrote: Meh, I wanna go take a look, haven't found the address yet. edit: offline finals are going to be played there: 上海市瞿溪路988号汇景生活广场B2层
edit: Alright so Savior vs Movie is actually a wildcard match to determine which of the two will qualify the offline finals in Shanghai in 10 days. Also it says time 19:00, but that's Chinese time, so for everyone planning to watch, that's 20:00 KST.
On November 20 2013 17:58 Cambium wrote: Okay, some actual information on the tournament:
Savior and Movie were invited to play in the losers bracket of the online stage of the tournament, so they will play against everyone who's been eliminated from the tournament (I'm not sure from what stage, could be 37, 17, 8, or just 2 players).
The winner of this tournament will join the three players who have advanced from the winners' bracket (so a total of four players) to play in the main event, which is the offline tournament held in Shanghai.
The offline tournament will supposedly have eight total participants:
3 from the online tournament 3 Korean players (I'm guessing Scan, Beast, and someone else) 2 players who were eliminated picked by the sponsor
I'm not really sure where Savior and Movie fit TBH. The joy of Chinese tournament is that organization is typically a huge mess.
Both Savior and Movie were invited to participate by the sole sponsor of the tournament (offering total prize of 0.54 MILLION rmb or US$90,000).
Aren't these two posts contradicting each other? One claims that only one of them will travel to China, another claims that both will. Also I wanted to note that it took me five minutes to find this info in this thread because the vast majority of posts are about stuff that have nothing to do at all with the tournament itself...
Savior probably didn't intend for the matchfixing, and his involvement in it, to hurt BW as much as it did -- I understand that. He was young and stupid at the time -- I get that too. He's even apologized for his actions, calling it "a big mistake" -- I know that. He also happens to be a competent zerg player to this date -- I can't deny that.
With that in mind, there's still no way in hell that I'm cool with him getting invited to an event like this. I don't really care about what his intentions are/were, he's already blown his chance. Quite frankly, I think it's disrespectful for him to even show his face at events such as this.
Others may disagree with me, and that's fine, since my opinion is not particularly diplomatic. I'm not out to convince others though, I just wanted to state my opinion on this, since it's something that I feel strongly about.
On November 20 2013 06:27 sheaRZerg wrote: I started watching a little bit before the match-fixing scandal, and my impression of the decline of the bw scene (as well as the teams disbanding and MBC switching) happened a decent time after that had died down. I had also thought it was much more a result of politics involving the new games. I would love to see some numbers regarding the viewership, to see if this was the case or my remembering the timeframe is just screwed up.
I am not saying the Savior should be forgiven, but the assertion that he somehow single-handedly killed broodwar seems farfetched, and short-sighted argument. In my opinion its a harmful attitude in general.
In the aftermath Kespa actually started taking actions that would have counteracted match fixing (for which I seem to remember hearing accounts that activities had been going on before saviors involvement). Wouldn't it be more productive to learn from the flaws in the original system? If the bw scene is going to recover and grow again I think it really needs to become more self aware that there was blame to spread around the scene for those events. If one bad egg can really kill such a long running organization, there are surely other problems that need to be looked at.
This may be an extremely western attitude, but I also feel the fact that Savior keeps sticking around is testament to him genuinely caring about bw. If the hatred against him is as intense in Korea as it is on teamliquid (and since everyone always refers to culture when discussing savior, i assume it must be even stronger) wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just leave? Literally anything he does that involves the game will send people into a rage. Should he remain banned from Korean tournaments? Yes. But I for one can't get behind this anger that he is wrong for some individuals still wanting to support him and see him play. Its an extremely prevalent, toxic attitude, and reason itself to not want to associate with the scene.
edit: I'd just like to add that I hope there isnt a backlash against movie...this seems like a good opportunity, when there are so few for ex-kespa pros at the moment.
You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen.
Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic.
On November 21 2013 00:29 StarStruck wrote: That's odd considering all this time I've been saying shades of grey. Please give what you read a little more thought before posting because it doesn't seem like you are reading what people are saying to you at all and instead are projecting stuff non-stop.
Whatever, you quoted me and said the same things again, without me disagreeing with you in the first place, it is kinda ironic that you would blame me for that though.
On November 21 2013 00:30 supernovamaniac wrote: The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here.
Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing.
No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality.
@ starstruck: I would like you answering my pm nonetheless, i just can't see why you would imply such things, ty.
Great because the post you directly replied to in the first place says that. /sarcasm.
Nobody IMPLIED that he was involved in match fixing intentionally TO DESTROY BW.
Rather, people are saying that he intentionally took part in match fixing, which resulted other things.
Exactly. Apparently, defending Savior impairs reading comprehension. It is either that or intentional ignorance. Sigh...
On November 20 2013 06:27 sheaRZerg wrote: I started watching a little bit before the match-fixing scandal, and my impression of the decline of the bw scene (as well as the teams disbanding and MBC switching) happened a decent time after that had died down. I had also thought it was much more a result of politics involving the new games. I would love to see some numbers regarding the viewership, to see if this was the case or my remembering the timeframe is just screwed up.
I am not saying the Savior should be forgiven, but the assertion that he somehow single-handedly killed broodwar seems farfetched, and short-sighted argument. In my opinion its a harmful attitude in general.
In the aftermath Kespa actually started taking actions that would have counteracted match fixing (for which I seem to remember hearing accounts that activities had been going on before saviors involvement). Wouldn't it be more productive to learn from the flaws in the original system? If the bw scene is going to recover and grow again I think it really needs to become more self aware that there was blame to spread around the scene for those events. If one bad egg can really kill such a long running organization, there are surely other problems that need to be looked at.
This may be an extremely western attitude, but I also feel the fact that Savior keeps sticking around is testament to him genuinely caring about bw. If the hatred against him is as intense in Korea as it is on teamliquid (and since everyone always refers to culture when discussing savior, i assume it must be even stronger) wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just leave? Literally anything he does that involves the game will send people into a rage. Should he remain banned from Korean tournaments? Yes. But I for one can't get behind this anger that he is wrong for some individuals still wanting to support him and see him play. Its an extremely prevalent, toxic attitude, and reason itself to not want to associate with the scene.
edit: I'd just like to add that I hope there isnt a backlash against movie...this seems like a good opportunity, when there are so few for ex-kespa pros at the moment.
You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen.
Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic.
Watching the last SPL and finals I was pretty excited it didn't seem boring or predictable to me I saw a loos of good and exciting play, unusual and sometimes innovatives games. Brood War has a "standard" play but that doesn't mean the meta can't change, or people make slight alterations to their play that are huge and brilliant
On November 20 2013 06:27 sheaRZerg wrote: I started watching a little bit before the match-fixing scandal, and my impression of the decline of the bw scene (as well as the teams disbanding and MBC switching) happened a decent time after that had died down. I had also thought it was much more a result of politics involving the new games. I would love to see some numbers regarding the viewership, to see if this was the case or my remembering the timeframe is just screwed up.
I am not saying the Savior should be forgiven, but the assertion that he somehow single-handedly killed broodwar seems farfetched, and short-sighted argument. In my opinion its a harmful attitude in general.
In the aftermath Kespa actually started taking actions that would have counteracted match fixing (for which I seem to remember hearing accounts that activities had been going on before saviors involvement). Wouldn't it be more productive to learn from the flaws in the original system? If the bw scene is going to recover and grow again I think it really needs to become more self aware that there was blame to spread around the scene for those events. If one bad egg can really kill such a long running organization, there are surely other problems that need to be looked at.
This may be an extremely western attitude, but I also feel the fact that Savior keeps sticking around is testament to him genuinely caring about bw. If the hatred against him is as intense in Korea as it is on teamliquid (and since everyone always refers to culture when discussing savior, i assume it must be even stronger) wouldn't it be so much easier for him to just leave? Literally anything he does that involves the game will send people into a rage. Should he remain banned from Korean tournaments? Yes. But I for one can't get behind this anger that he is wrong for some individuals still wanting to support him and see him play. Its an extremely prevalent, toxic attitude, and reason itself to not want to associate with the scene.
edit: I'd just like to add that I hope there isnt a backlash against movie...this seems like a good opportunity, when there are so few for ex-kespa pros at the moment.
You got the right idea friend, Broodwar died mainly because it didnt attract enough new viewers. We all saw the decline in the audience as the years progressed. Remember Kingdom vs Nal_ra 2003, MSL i believe, god damn football stadium packed with people, getting really excited about every damn little thing. Can we say the same about Flash vs Zero in 2011? also, the more the game is played, it becomes more and more predictable, in the early days you had no idea what the hell was going to happen.
Then players figgured out the Meta game, in the end every matchup was the same, PvZ: toss will ForgeFE and zerg will take 3 quick bases, I'm not saying this happened EVERY game, but all of you that followed the scene, you know what iam talking about. You can cast blame and come with your wild theories about blizzard and riot in a unholy alliance to destroy broodwar but the fact is, and i'm going to hell for saying this: BW had become boring, it was predictable and stale. when Boxer ravaged with his dropships it was truly bad ass, we all know it and we all remember it.. Can we say the same about fantasy? his dropship play was better than boxers (imo) but did we get as excited when he did it? No, because we had already seen it.. hundreds of times. this is my theory on why broodwar died and i think its pretty realistic.
The fact that you take fantasy as an example of unoriginality makes clear that you are talking without knowing jack shit, though predicating the total opposite. There's always been a most effective way to play the matchup, what you refer as "meta". It's always been, though changing quite abruptly with oov, savior and bisu, but after and before that it was quite expected the build orders the players would pull off.
The sad thing about all this is that so many people actually believe that Savior was this evil mastermind who conceived and created the whole match-fixing scene by himself, and pin it all on him.
Illegal betting and matchfixing existed, exists, and will continue to exist in Korea for probably as long as gambling remains to be completely banned in that country; it is beyond naive to believe that a guy like Savior actually created the whole scene and system of fixed betting that took place there. The whole matchfixing thing happened because there was demand for it, it was created long before Savior - long before Brood War, even. Savior was just the convenient scapegoat that could be made an example of.
Of course he's guilty of matchfixing, and deserved more than a slap on the hand for something like that - but it's clear as day that if Savior had been completely erased from history, never existed, someone else would have risen to the occasion and played his role. There's never been a shortage of underpaid progamers in Korea.
On November 21 2013 00:30 supernovamaniac wrote: The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here.
Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing.
No, if you read carefully you see Djabanete argueing that Blizard did damage BW on purpose, thezanursic then implied savior did the same, that is all i ever argued against, i don't see where all this nonsense comes from now, maybe YOU guys should read first and then reply instead of blaming me for not reading stuff. whatever, i won't post here anymore, too much emotions and not enough rationality.
No one is saying that savior intentionally did it to damage bw, but it is safe to say that blizzard korea couldn't kill a game if they wanted to. They would have done much more damage trying to promote bw like the did sc2 in korea.
The fact that you take fantasy as an example of unoriginality makes clear that you are talking without knowing jack shit, though predicating the total opposite. There's always been a most effective way to play the matchup, what you refer as "meta". It's always been, though changing quite abruptly with oov, savior and bisu, but after and before that it was quite expected the build orders the players would pull off.[/QUOTE]
My point was that broodwar died becuase of the declining interest, you honestly didnt get that? if you dont agree with my examples, make your own. but then there was never any issue in your opinion right? it was savior, backed up with the devil company blizzard entertainment and its diabolical minion Riot, yes? Broodwar was at its pinnacle with ever growing attendance and every game being so entertaining, right? like i said, the point of my post was to tell my opinion on WHY broodwar died, not my expert opinion on the "Meta", balance or anything else having to do with the ingame play. You might be right but like i said, that was not the meaning of the post Get the point before you start trashtalking, i really cant believe that you didn't understand that, you are refering to examples of 1 of the many reasons i pointed out and you write it as if it was the only thing i blame the decline on. YOU dont know jack shit, dont talk until you get the point.
On November 21 2013 01:31 HollowLord wrote: Fuck tabloids, fuck haters, fuck witch-hunts, fuck flamewar threads, fuck censorship, fuck scapegoating, and fuck Kespa.
Let the man play. Just because Kespa, an organization infamously rigid, uncaring, and demanding about their players, condemns a 22 year old kid to public shaming and a lifetime of humiliation doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to play the game he loves.
And fuck anyone who says otherwise.
This.
Also for those who agree that it is not a big deal, don't waste time in these arguments. Most of the arguments that I have read were written with really sketchy logic and lots of speculative reasoning. It's really not worth the effort arguing.
For all the Koreans out there who take this very personally, recognize that you do have a right to dislike Savior. You should also however keep it in check, and stop reacting so viscerally to him for all of your woes about broodwar. I don't intend to speak for everyone but from many non-korean's perspectives, the match-fixing scandal looked like a very small blow to BW followed by an extremely self-destructive reaction.
Holy shit people just watch the damn guy if you like him and don't if you don't.
Also these Savior threads are nice fresh reminders on how little people care about the scene and lack the ability to accept credible information. Give SNM and his statements some respect, he has worked for OGN and talked to a lot of the professionals in the Korean eSports scene.
EPT
