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On November 20 2013 16:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 15:33 Golgotha wrote:On November 20 2013 15:21 supernovamaniac wrote:On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then. You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources. But I would say he can make that judgment based on talking to industry insiders that he would have met while casting in Korea. Or maybe your opinion is more valuable than that of people working at and with kespa and ogn.
mat
Did you read what I said? That's exactly my point. They had the most to lose, thus, their objectivity would be in danger because of this. This is why in the U.S. justice system, the jury is not composed of the victim's families or anyone who might lean a certain direction. Once you step back from the savior scandal, it is not so hard to see that there is more at play than just savior damaging BW. Or are you seriously suggesting that he is the sole culprit? If so, no matter what I say will never get through your head.
Oh and dont bring up kespa and how kespa's opinions are so holy. I know all y'all have whined about how idiotic some of their rules are.
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Let's stop discussing Savior's possible reasons for streaming and the degree of damage he caused to BW and simply look at the facts:
What positive does Savior's stream actually bring into the scene? SoSPA is well off without him, there's actually an overload of ex-pros. Whatever you personally think about it, his presence is clearly (see this thread) dividing the already small community and sheads a bad light on the Afreeca streaming community in general (see oov's/stork's message).
All of these circumstances suggest that if Savior decided to finally care about the game, he would move on and never look back. We'd lose a few fanatic Savior fans but the scene as a whole would be far better off without him.
This should be clear enough and no matter how much you want to see Savior play or do well in life in general, you should take these into consideration the next time you want to support his persistent streaming. If you're okay with him still hurting the scene today, okay, it's your moral code. Just throwing this out there for you guys to consider.
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The reason why the match fixing scandal still casts a shadow is that fans and important figures like Oov took it as an opportunity to prove their devotion to BW by hyperbolically demonizing the progamers involved. They call the crimes "unspeakable" and "despicable" and talk about the "suffering and anguish" they caused. That's how we talk about rapists and terrorists. Oov said Bisu would become "the same as Savior" if he just played some online games with him. When people talk this way, they're just trying to increase their social standing by distancing themselves from the pariah.
Of course what Savior did was damaging, unethical, and just plain wrong. But he was tried in a court of law and punished --- including losing his livelihood --- and it's really none of our business if he now happens to pick up a StarCraft CD and log onto Battle.net. And it's none of our business if he wants to charge money to give private lessons. Brood War is not my house or your house that we have the right to decide who plays it. It's not wrong for him to enjoy BW or share with the community what skills and knowledge he has to offer, and it's not wrong for him to accept money for perfectly legal StarCraft-related activities like teaching, streaming, or tournament participation. He was caught, tried, and punished, and he's not likely to be a repeat offender, so I see no problem with accepting any constructive additions to the BW scene he may yet have to offer.
As for whether his continued involvement would reflect well on tournament BW --- well, look, having important figures go on about how he's the scum of the earth and should never touch a mouse and keyboard again looks pretty darn bad. When people talk like that they sound like little children, including Oov. If people had approached the situation in a positive and understanding way from the start, the match-fixers could have been fined, stripped of their illegal winnings, banned from Proleague for a short duration, and made to do something useful like teaching workshops for younger players on competitive integrity, the right course of action to take when approached by crooked gamblers, and the consequences of throwing matches.
We could have erased the match-fixing just as thoroughly, come to terms with what happened, and still been able to enjoy the skills of people like Hwasin, UpMagic, Yarnc, go.go, and yes, Savior.
Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
@Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. The trial and punishment were over long ago. Savior is participating in the game in a way that is wholly constructive and non-damaging, or at least it would be if people would quit kicking him for it; so as far as I'm concerned, if there's damage being caused, it's the kickers' problem, not Savior's.
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If Savior's games will be entertaining I shall watch them and watch his stream.
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Canada5565 Posts
Does savior still regularly play? Is he any good?
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On November 20 2013 16:38 myminerals wrote:
Yay! Great to see some fresh action. On the other hand, I don't think Savior is that good anymore.. Has anyone watched his streams?
I wouldn't expect Savior to be good in today's game. Richard Garfield classifies competitive gamers on an "innovator" vs "honer" spectrum. Savior is perhaps the all-time most innovative BW pro, having invented modern ZvT. (iloveoov is the other contender for that title, I think.) Revolution Day, Bisu's win in the MSL finals, marked the transition to the modern era, which is dominated by honers. As an example, consider how so many players play almost exclusively Fighting Spirit: great for honing your builds and execution, but with little innovation possible now given how much it has been played. There's nothing wrong with that, but it plays against Savior's strengths as a player.
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On November 20 2013 16:46 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:10 Jaaaaasper wrote:On November 20 2013 15:33 Golgotha wrote:On November 20 2013 15:21 supernovamaniac wrote:On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then. You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources. But I would say he can make that judgment based on talking to industry insiders that he would have met while casting in Korea. Or maybe your opinion is more valuable than that of people working at and with kespa and ogn. mat Did you read what I said? That's exactly my point. They had the most to lose, thus, their objectivity would be in danger because of this. This is why in the U.S. justice system, the jury is not composed of the victim's families or anyone who might lean a certain direction. Once you step back from the savior scandal, it is not so hard to see that there is more at play than just savior damaging BW. Or are you seriously suggesting that he is the sole culprit? If so, no matter what I say will never get through your head. Oh and dont bring up kespa and how kespa's opinions are so holy. I know all y'all have whined about how idiotic some of their rules are.
I never said that kespa is the sole expert, but to continue with your justice system analogy, the prosecution and the defense bring in expert witnesses to testify, such as people from ogn or kespa or even someone who was involved with ogn and kespa after the fact like snm, who are trusted more than random people on the street, like you. Saviour did not single handedly destroy bw, but he did more damage than sc2 ever did to the brand.
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Okay, some actual information on the tournament:
Savior and Movie were invited to play in the losers bracket of the online stage of the tournament, so they will play against everyone who's been eliminated from the tournament (I'm not sure from what stage, could be 37, 17, 8, or just 2 players).
The winner of this tournament will join the three players who have advanced from the winners' bracket (so a total of four players) to play in the main event, which is the offline tournament held in Shanghai.
The offline tournament will supposedly have eight total participants:
3 from the online tournament
3 Korean players (I'm guessing Scan, Beast, and someone else)
2 players who were eliminated picked by the sponsor
I'm not really sure where Savior and Movie fit TBH. The joy of Chinese tournament is that organization is typically a huge mess.
Both Savior and Movie were invited to participate by the sole sponsor of the tournament (offering total prize of 0.54 MILLION rmb or US$90,000).
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Is there an article somewhere that tells what Savior was like before the match-fixing scandal? It really sounds weird how someone who had to have put a lot of soul into the game could just...casually throw everything into the shitter.
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On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
The reason why the match fixing scandal still casts a shadow is that fans and important figures like Oov took it as an opportunity to prove their devotion to BW by hyperbolically demonizing the progamers involved.
Oh, you can read Oov's mind now? Oov sure needs to prove his devotion to BW when his livelihood depends on SC2.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
They call the crimes "unspeakable" and "despicable" and talk about the "suffering and anguish" they caused. That's how we talk about rapists and terrorists. Oov said Bisu would become "the same as Savior" if he just played some online games with him. When people talk this way, they're just trying to increase their social standing by distancing themselves from the pariah.
We use those words for a lot of things. Worse things are said about rapists and terrorists. Stop being a pansy. When people condemn criminal acts, they are providing a warning to the society at large that harming others for personal profit is not acceptable behavior. We said those same words about Bernie Madoff and banks that sold risk mortgages after repackaging them to hide the risk.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
Of course what Savior did was damaging, unethical, and just plain wrong. But he was tried in a court of law and punished --- including losing his livelihood --- and it's really none of our business if he now happens to pick up a StarCraft CD and log onto Battle.net. And it's none of our business if he wants to charge money to give private lessons. Brood War is not my house or your house that we have the right to decide who plays it. It's not wrong for him to enjoy BW or share with the community what skills and knowledge he has to offer, and it's not wrong for him to accept money for perfectly legal StarCraft-related activities like teaching, streaming, or tournament participation.
I don't care what he does on his own time. Just keep him out of tournaments, which are not run by him. Don't taint whatever Brood War scene we have left by association.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
As for whether his continued involvement would reflect well on tournament BW --- well, look, having important figures go on about how he's the scum of the earth and should never touch a mouse and keyboard again looks pretty darn bad. When people talk like that they sound like little children, including Oov.
What looks childish is not realizing the magnitude of the impact that match-fixing scandals have on serious sports. What sounds childishly lacking in perspective is telling the victims that they should be restrained in their criticism of their assailant.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
If people had approached the situation in a positive and understanding way from the start, the match-fixers could have been fined, stripped of their illegal winnings, banned from Proleague for a short duration,
This reveals that you have a child-like understanding of the severity of match-fixing. In any major sport in the world, match-fixing demands a life-time ban. It challenges the integrity of the results. Match-fixing is the difference between activities like pro wrestling---which is the butt of jokes---and respectable sports.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
and made to do something useful like teaching workshops for younger players on competitive integrity, the right course of action to take when approached by crooked gamblers, and the consequences of throwing matches.
KeSPA holds workshops for young players now. These workshops are led by people with more integrity than convicted criminals.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
We could have erased the match-fixing just as thoroughly, come to terms with what happened, and still been able to enjoy the skills of people like Hwasin, UpMagic, Yarnc, go.go, and yes, Savior.
Keep up dude. The word online is that Savior's skills are gone now. He was already no longer a top-tier pro during the year leading up to the scandal. If he's getting his eyebrows shaved by Terror, then that says it all.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
Yup, and Savior accidentally recruited players into match-fixing. *sarcasm*
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
@Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game.
Or maybe he just likes easy money? Fanboy much? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Do you even know how Savior behaves on his stream?
Do you know that he bans people who use any words that are either related to match-fixing, sound similar to match-fixing, or can be loosely associated with the various details of the match-fixing scandal? He bans people for mentioning other match-fixing events in history. Sounds like a person who is a reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly repentant and wants healing. Did you know that Savior has SUED people for posting negative stuff about him on online forums? Sit on that last bit for a second.
The man is a disgrace.
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On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
@Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. The trial and punishment were over long ago. Savior is participating in the game in a way that is wholly constructive and non-damaging, or at least it would be if people would quit kicking him for it; so as far as I'm concerned, if there's damage being caused, it's the kickers' problem, not Savior's.
I merely stated the facts and my discontent with the current state of affairs (i.e. Savior's presence hurting the scene). I identified the one realistic way of putting an end to this problem (i.e. Savior leaving the scene) and I'll support that course of action. I think that's a very pragmatic approach and I don't see where you get the idea of any emotional investment on my side.
I am not interested in your moral constructions because ultimately you can change a few people's mind and improve the situation but it's been some time now and it's clear that the issue is still very present and not going anywhere.
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Well.....honestly I have mixed feelings about this but who wouldn't.... I would like to see savior play just to witness his 1st person play, but then again I don't want him to gain publicity, he might kill the chinese BW scene, maybe thats his evil diabolical plan lol
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jesus christ, I'm starting to have a strong urge to kick someone's ass next time somebody feels it is his sacred duty to reflect on "What I think about Savior".
Seriously, right now all I care is that I want to watch him play BW and hope it won't be a waste of time.
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Australia1064 Posts
I guess it's been at least six months since the last one so we were due for one of these threads.
Is there controversy in China over MJY playing in competitive games?
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On November 20 2013 05:12 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 04:22 Golgotha wrote:
I want to see bisu vs savior again. I hope this happens. It would be the best match of the year. If u hate savior, just root for bisu to curb stomp him. He would destroy him, it wouldn't even be a good set
He=Who?
Him=Whom?
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On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote:
8) I could forgive Savior if he displays some goddamn contrition. Telling his crazy fans that he was "only" a broker and did not fix his own matches tells me all I need to know about that. He's still making excuses for himself and trying to downplay his role. Fuck him.
Seems like boasting to me
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
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On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
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On November 20 2013 19:20 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote:
Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about.
Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface).
I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine.
It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded...
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@Lemmata:
Internet warriors vilify Savior because taking his actions as a personal affront proves that they are hardcore.
Yes, I can read Oov's mind.
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EPT
