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On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy.
If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive.
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What even is this tournament?
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Can we just pretend he was thrown in jail forever and never acknowledge him as a person again?
He has no right to pick up a mouse and play fucking Minecraft, much less the game he forsook for a quick buck.
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You must construct additional Pylons!!!
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On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote:
1) Savior may not have killed Brood War by himself. However, he did kill Air Force Ace. If you do think that the end of Air Force Ace had a negligible impact on Brood War, then you are either ignorant or logically impaired. Forgive my ignorance, my ACE fielded an awesome squad all the way until the very end of BW SPL, almost three years after the match fixing scandal. How did he kill ACE?
These decisions do not get made in a day. It was repeatedly reported in the Korean media that the Air Force was brass was in discussions to shut down ACE in light of the scandal and the participation of an ACE player in it. Brood War fans in Korea signed petitions to protest this and put up a lot of resistance. However, there were plenty of whispers that it was a done deal that the team would disband once the recruits who had joined ACE at the time of the scandal finished their service...which lasts approximately 2-3 years. Coincidence? Also, a little more than a year and a half after Savior's guilty verdict in court, Air Force confirmed that it would not be recruiting new players, even as it continued fielding a team. 6 months later, Air Force announced that the team would be disbanding.
On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote:
5) The match-fixing scandal had a definite effect on the attitudes of government officials in Korea. Boxer was invited to meet the president prior to the scandal. The government created Air Force Ace to support pro gaming as a viable career and take advantage of the positive images associated with pro gaming. What kind of things happened post-scandal? The government killed Air Force Ace. Korea instituted a policy of shutting down online gaming at midnight---a policy that had been repeatedly rejected earlier in the decade. Legislators pushed to classify computer gaming as one of the four evils of society to be regulated along with gambling, drugs, and alcohol. The connection between organized illegal gambling and the match-fixing scandal is not something we can ignore. That's completely baseless and it's an absolutely huge stretch. I'd guess that the kids dropping dead, the parents neglecting children, the rampant online addiction, cyberbullying, etc, were a way bigger deal.
Completely baseless? As I mentioned, Air Force's internal discussions regarding ACE were reported by the Korean media. What does cyber-bullying have to do with online gaming after midnight? That policy was enacted a year after Savior's guilty verdict. The Korean legislators discussed the shutdown law many times before that, but it always failed to pass until the scandal happened. It would be silly to say that the scandal had no effect on public opinion on this issue.
On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 09:22 lemmata wrote:
6) Yes, Blizzard killed Brood War with its broadcasting rights disputes and that boring non-sequel. Yes, MBC Music killed Brood War by replacing MBC Game. Yes, the KeSPA system had (and still has) some inherent flaws that leave its weaker players vulnerable to predatory criminal recruiters. BUT!! Would Brood War have been better able to fight back against the tides if it was not punched in the kidneys by the scandal? Yes. Would the executive decision to shut down MBC Game have been more difficult had the game not been tainted by the stink of Savior's diarrhea? Yes. Would KeSPA have had more time to make corrections to the way that it treated the marginal players and improve their welfare (just as other sports did over longer periods of time) had the scandal not happened? Yes. A person who is dismissive of the impact that the match-fixing scandal had on the demise of professional Brood War reveals that his/her counterfactual reasoning module is defective or absent. Again, all of those things were two years after...
And? Do you deny that Brood War was weakened by the scandal? Would it have been as easy to shut down MBC game otherwise? Also, Blizzard's dispute is not about causality. It is about whether the dispute alone would have been enough to kill Brood War without these compounding effects. These decisions are not made immediately. Again, there are frictions in the real world. Also, MBC Game folded 1 year after Savior's guilty verdict, not 2 years. It seems like 2 years if you count from the time when the match-fixing was mentioned as a possibility without any names attached.
On November 20 2013 13:15 Gescom wrote:
I can completely agree that "fuck Saviour", and I completely love BW, but to me, the argument that 'Savior killed BW!1' is just a BW apologist mentality that the game could have possibly succeeded into 2012 and onwards. It's ludicrous.
This is the very straw man that I railed against in the beginning of my post. I made it clear that Savior is not the only one who killed Brood War. Attacking an argument that I did not actually make does not discredit my point. There were many factors. At least we agree that Savior is an asshole, regardless of the ultimate effect that he may have had.
On November 20 2013 11:34 miercat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 04:37 Hesmyrr wrote:
By the way, Lee Seung Won stated that MBC Game did not have to disband but was forced to due to the channel's director. Apparently MBC Game was still pretty well off at the time compared to some other MBC channels, but the director told the channel to stop doing special events that were the main source of channel's income, then when MBC Game started losing money because of it, used it as excuse to replace it with MBC Music. Thought I should mention this tidbit since this seems to be information not widely known.
OH. MY. GOD. ... Is there source for this information?
Yes. See this video at 27 minutes. It is in Korean, but it is as Hesmyrr wrote.
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BW was seen as an honorable, young man's sport full of spirit and pride. Companies invested in that perception. He ruined that. Go watch the aftermath video with Kim Carrier and the other caster where they discuss the impact of the scandal, they talk all about it.
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On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive.
if you honestly believe that savior did not have a hand in causing broodwar to die, you're incredibly naive
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savior4lyf . fuck the haters. i havent seen one of his games in a long time but he'd still kick your ass in bw
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AWW YISS!!! been waiting for this moment for so long... :D
hope there will be stream/vods *fingers crossed*
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On November 20 2013 14:49 ChriS-X wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. if you honestly believe that savior did not have a hand in causing broodwar to die, you're incredibly naive
Look. We all agree he is a fucking asshole and fucked up the scene. We are not blind, we know what he did and it was beyond shit. But by no means was he the sole reason of the downfall of BW. Yes, he damaged it, but you have to also give him credit for the years he raised it. However, this blame game is not the point. The point is people are acting like what he did was unforgivable, as if he murdered someone and can never be given a 2nd chance. This is what I do not understand, he made a huge mistake as young pro-gamer, but what right do you have to judge him forever? What if you were in his shoes? You try to move on from your past, you try to redeem yourself, but no one gives you any opportunity to do right again. We've all made mistakes before, if he is remorseful and regretful of what he has done, then we should get off our high horses and let him be. If none of you have ever sinned, you can condemn him.There are bigger fish to fry, get over it.
Oh, and he has paid fucking dearly for what he did (financially, etc). No need to abuse him on these forums because the Korean fans have done a lot more.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I wasn't around when the match fixing scandal happened so I can't say I've seen the outrage on TL or in the KR scene. I have read player interviews even in SCII ones that mentioned how the scene declined after the scandal. I mean, to me, it only makes sense that would happen considering how Saviour was such a famous player. To me, at least, I think Saviour played a big role in the decline of the BW scene however I don't think it's right for anyone to consider that the BW scene died only because of him. That's being very naive about the situation. The scene definitely changed that day and it was for the worse but other factors also contributed to it's death.
He's a horrible person for what he did and if the other rumours about him badmouthing the game and not apologizing for whatever role he played are true then I can see how people can still be angry with him and honestly, he's a scumbag for not expressing remorse for his actions. Personally, I think if he gave a sincere apology and tried to make up for his mistake, then with time, he should be forgiven. This is of course, if he is genuinely sorry for what he did. I talked a Korean friend who used to follow the BW scene around that time and asked him about it and his opinion. In summary, he told me that after it happened, he stopped(I think lost interest) in the scene and hasn't followed it since. To him, even though he'll say the name(unlike what I heard on here that Koreans don't use it), he is pissed at Saviour for what he's done. It does put the situation in a new light and I do feel that the difference in culture plays some role in why Saviour is still not forgiven even though he technically served his sentence.
As for watching this, I'm not sure yet. I never did watch much of his games tbh so I might tune in for a game or so to see how well he plays but I doubt I'll be amazed by his play at this point. There's always Killer to watch on snipealot for my zerg needs lol
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On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive.
I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then.
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Since when were we talking about absolutes. These are variables people. o_O
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On November 20 2013 15:21 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then.
You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources.
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On November 20 2013 15:33 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 15:21 supernovamaniac wrote:On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then. You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources.
Dominos.
Someone lines them up, but it doesn't fall. Someone else needs to push the first block and then everything else ensues.
Chain Reaction.
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oohh a savior thread .. Temp bans will be handed, guaranteed.
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On November 20 2013 15:33 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 15:21 supernovamaniac wrote:On November 20 2013 13:53 9-BiT wrote:On November 20 2013 02:59 supernovamaniac wrote:Walks into BW forums Still see people supporting this match fixer ...sigh On November 20 2013 02:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 20 2013 02:49 BearAttack wrote:On November 20 2013 02:36 iFU.pauline wrote:
What? No? sAviOr? please delete this thread, savior ban for life, we don't want savior, i hope he burns in hell and die young, no savior on tl.net, no stream no nothing. fuck savior cheater mutha fucka, useless guy, doesn't deseve any attention, must be hanged! How do you not get banned for this? He fixed matches in a video game when he was a little kid, so he should be hung and burn in hell? You're so immature I almost can't believe it. Oh just saw that past thread he had too, this guy is a troll and completely insane. Please get banned. He was a little kid at the age of 22? I didn't watch broodwar back then but i can understand why some people are pretty mad at him...^^ I don't say there is a reason to filter all savior related stuff, he certainly is punished enough, but i don't have much respect for him either. That being said i am interested in how good he is now, are there any stats or something? Oh it's nothing. All he did was cause the entire e-sports scene in Korea to almost collapse at one point, caused MBCGame to shutdown, and pretty much contributed to BW ending in Korea. And I guess he reflected on his mistakes and all, especially after telling his viewers that he's going to stop streaming and still doing it anyways, in public, taking fan's money for the game (and many other progamer's lives) he helped to destroy. If you honestly believe that savior caused broodwar to die you're incredibly naive. I guess everyone in Korea whom I have spoke to is also naive then. You really need to understand this from an objective perspective. You cannot make factual claim based upon the extreme, hyperbolic, emotional, and exaggerated views of a fan base. Also, you spent time in Korea? I bet you spent time in Korea with many people who are connected with the BW era. Of course they are pissed and have vocal opinions of Savior, they lost careers, etc. So please do not make assertions that BW fell solely because of savior based upon such sources.
But I would say he can make that judgment based on talking to industry insiders that he would have met while casting in Korea. Or maybe your opinion is more valuable than that of people working at and with kespa and ogn.
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Yay! Great to see some fresh action. On the other hand, I don't think Savior is that good anymore.. Has anyone watched his streams?
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Hmm, I haven't watched Savior play in a long long time, curious to see if he's still in shape.
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EPT
