On November 20 2013 19:41 Djabanete wrote: @Lemmata: Internet warriors vilify Savior because taking his actions as a personal affront proves that they are hardcore.
Internet warriors defend Savior because taking absurd contrarian positions proves that they are edgy and enlightened.
On November 20 2013 19:41 Djabanete wrote: Yes, I can read Oov's mind.
Okay. You're correct then. No point in continuing. Have a nice day.
Idk how true savior fanboys feel, but I would renounce Bisu if he was the one who was match fixing. I'd be so disappointed in him I would gladly never watch another game of his. I don't care to defend or hate on Savior, I am just going to ignore his existence in future starcraft matches.
On November 20 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote: Can't we just sit down and enjoy people with good skills play Brood War, regardless of past actions?
Yes, Savior made a horrible bad mistake. He has suffered the judicial consequences for it. Can we move on please?
Why do you feel that you need to convince those that are angry to move on. To add more to my post above, if it were Bisu I would have been so upset I would have quit competitive starcraft all together. So I can see why people are upset if I was in their shoes.
On November 20 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote: Can't we just sit down and enjoy people with good skills play Brood War, regardless of past actions?
Yes, Savior made a horrible bad mistake. He has suffered the judicial consequences for it. Can we move on please?
Why do you feel that you need to convince those that are angry to move on. To add more to my post above, if it were Bisu I would have been so upset I would have quit competitive starcraft all together. So I can see why people are upset if I was in their shoes.
honestly u saying that cuz is not bisu.if u were a true bisu fan u will support not matter what.plus we all savior fans just like his art to play starcraft not his past actions.
On November 20 2013 17:26 Xxio wrote: Does savior still regularly play? Is he any good?
Well, when I last checked in on him via afreeca he wasn't that good.
On November 20 2013 18:02 PineapplePizza wrote: Is there an article somewhere that tells what Savior was like before the match-fixing scandal? It really sounds weird how someone who had to have put a lot of soul into the game could just...casually throw everything into the shitter.
There are several articles written by TL staff members on him post-scandal and prior to it. Anyway, it's not that weird considering he was a shell of his former shelf ever since Bisu completely dismantled him. It's pretty disappointing and now no one questions the victory dances FBH did against him after beating him, heh heh heh. You should have seen the outrage back then when FBH first pulled it off. The response was hilarious.
Also thank you Djabanete. That was one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in this thread. A lot of us our grown adults and we know how to take what those guys say with a grain of salt, lol.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine.
It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded...
I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head.
On November 20 2013 21:55 Xiphias wrote: Can't we just sit down and enjoy people with good skills play Brood War, regardless of past actions?
Yes, Savior made a horrible bad mistake. He has suffered the judicial consequences for it. Can we move on please?
Why do you feel that you need to convince those that are angry to move on. To add more to my post above, if it were Bisu I would have been so upset I would have quit competitive starcraft all together. So I can see why people are upset if I was in their shoes.
honestly u saying that cuz is not bisu.if u were a true bisu fan u will support not matter what.plus we all savior fans just like his art to play starcraft not his past actions.
I know time heals all wounds but I'm not sure I would have had the patience or passion to stick around. Bisu will go down as one of my life hero's. Thinking about how some savior fans must of felt is really saddening.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: The reason why the match fixing scandal still casts a shadow is that fans and important figures like Oov took it as an opportunity to prove their devotion to BW by hyperbolically demonizing the progamers involved. They call the crimes "unspeakable" and "despicable" and talk about the "suffering and anguish" they caused. That's how we talk about rapists and terrorists. Oov said Bisu would become "the same as Savior" if he just played some online games with him. When people talk this way, they're just trying to increase their social standing by distancing themselves from the pariah.
Of course what Savior did was damaging, unethical, and just plain wrong. But he was tried in a court of law and punished --- including losing his livelihood --- and it's really none of our business if he now happens to pick up a StarCraft CD and log onto Battle.net. And it's none of our business if he wants to charge money to give private lessons. Brood War is not my house or your house that we have the right to decide who plays it. It's not wrong for him to enjoy BW or share with the community what skills and knowledge he has to offer, and it's not wrong for him to accept money for perfectly legal StarCraft-related activities like teaching, streaming, or tournament participation. He was caught, tried, and punished, and he's not likely to be a repeat offender, so I see no problem with accepting any constructive additions to the BW scene he may yet have to offer.
As for whether his continued involvement would reflect well on tournament BW --- well, look, having important figures go on about how he's the scum of the earth and should never touch a mouse and keyboard again looks pretty darn bad. When people talk like that they sound like little children, including Oov. If people had approached the situation in a positive and understanding way from the start, the match-fixers could have been fined, stripped of their illegal winnings, banned from Proleague for a short duration, and made to do something useful like teaching workshops for younger players on competitive integrity, the right course of action to take when approached by crooked gamblers, and the consequences of throwing matches.
We could have erased the match-fixing just as thoroughly, come to terms with what happened, and still been able to enjoy the skills of people like Hwasin, UpMagic, Yarnc, go.go, and yes, Savior.
Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
@Above: What do you want? Do you want healing or do you just want to kick somebody? The fact that Savior is still trying to play this game despite that 90% of other players would go out of their way to kick him shows that he's passionate about the game. The trial and punishment were over long ago. Savior is participating in the game in a way that is wholly constructive and non-damaging, or at least it would be if people would quit kicking him for it; so as far as I'm concerned, if there's damage being caused, it's the kickers' problem, not Savior's.
It's true that the only "damage" he is causing is that people are getting mad over him. He's not actually doing anything substantial.
On November 20 2013 04:22 Golgotha wrote: I want to see bisu vs savior again. I hope this happens. It would be the best match of the year. If u hate savior, just root for bisu to curb stomp him.
He would destroy him, it wouldn't even be a good set
That's just how Koreans talk man. Take it with a grain of salt and that post really needs to be buried and it looks like you went back to square one. Really no point on talking more on this matter considering it sounds like everyone has made up their minds on the matter.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine.
It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded...
I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head.
And i dont know what you mean by that idiotic statement. What ill informed posts? I only targeted the "on purpose" statement of some guys here. It's just mind boggling stupid to say he did on purpose destroy BW, all he did was being greedy and get money that he didn't deserve. This alone has nothing to do with "destroying BW on purpose". If you don't agree with it, then you are just not rational. I dont't even know why you target my post, i did never say anything about savior ever before cause i just don't know the bw scene, so i feel you either targeted the wrong person (me) or you are a troll/high/drunk/whatever.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine.
It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded...
I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head.
And i dont know what you mean by that idiotic statement. What ill informed posts? I only targeted the "on purpose" statement of some guys here. It's just mind boggling stupid to say he did on purpose destroy BW, all he did was being greedy and get money that he didn't deserve. This alone has nothing to do with "destroying BW on purpose". If you don't agree with it, then you are just not rational. I dont't even know why you target my post, i did never say anything about savior ever before cause i just don't know the bw scene, so i feel you either targeted the wrong person (me) or you are a troll/high/drunk/whatever.
Idiotic? I'd say it's right on the dime. It's gone on for long enough in the SC2 forums and now it's happening here. Rather than go through your post history let's focus on this thread alone and how many times we have to explain shit to you. Re-read the bottom of my last several posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. My God man.
Now he's PMing me, lol. Let me leave it at this. When you are a regular on these forums you see a lot of stuff man and when you post as much as you do. It gives some of us a pretty good idea of what you're all about. Whether it be the love reports, general talk about game design, tournament formats, about players, etc. I read a lot. There is nothing weird about what I have to say with regards to you and you didn't do anything to me personally lol. A lot of the stuff you write is off-base and you stick out like a sore thumb. I'm just telling you that because you might want to consider what others have wrote and are trying to tell you before you make some of your posts because we are in fact going in circles.
I will try to repeat this once more to you: A lot of the guys arguing here aren't trying to say the guy was trying to destroy the scene single-handedly (it's ridiculous notion to even think that with all the other parties involved). It's just one variable. Is that savvy?
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine.
It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded...
I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head.
And i dont know what you mean by that idiotic statement. What ill informed posts? I only targeted the "on purpose" statement of some guys here. It's just mind boggling stupid to say he did on purpose destroy BW, all he did was being greedy and get money that he didn't deserve. This alone has nothing to do with "destroying BW on purpose". If you don't agree with it, then you are just not rational. I dont't even know why you target my post, i did never say anything about savior ever before cause i just don't know the bw scene, so i feel you either targeted the wrong person (me) or you are a troll/high/drunk/whatever.
Idiotic? I'd say it's right on the dime. It's gone on for long enough in the SC2 forums and now it's happening here. Rather than go through your post history let's focus on this thread alone and how many times we have to explain shit to you. Re-read the bottom of my last several posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. My God man.
I never said that he didnt have an effect in the downfall of BW. But the statement "he did it on purpose" is stupid nonetheless. Do you think it was in his interest that the match fixing gets discovered? I don't try to defend him here, what he did was wrong and did damage BW, but that wasn't in his interest, that is ALL i am saying, i think that is not hard to understand, you just tell me things that have nothing to do with my original statement. Maybe you should learn to differentiate some statements, there is more than black and white.
On November 20 2013 04:22 Golgotha wrote: I want to see bisu vs savior again. I hope this happens. It would be the best match of the year. If u hate savior, just root for bisu to curb stomp him.
He would destroy him, it wouldn't even be a good set
He=Who? Him=Whom?
Bisu would destroy sAviOr
like i said. CURB stomp. this would make everyone happy because we get to see savior play and all the haters can watch Bisu destroy him. who wouldn't watch that? It would be sweet revenge if bisu trash talked a bit too.
That's odd considering all this time I've been saying shades of grey. Please give what you read a little more thought before posting because it doesn't seem like you are reading what people are saying to you at all and instead are projecting stuff non-stop.
On November 20 2013 17:16 Djabanete wrote: Anyway. You want to someone to blame for causing pro BW to go into hibernation (I won't say disappear)? Then blame Blizzard; at least they did it on purpose.
I'm sure that Savior ''accidently'' manipulated naive players to match fix.
That isn't even his point, what are you guys even talking about. Savior didn't order the match fixing to destroy BW, that is his point and it is true. It was bad and shouldn't be done, but it didn't damage BW itself (without getting to the surface). I don't know the korean mentality etc, but if the BW scene would have been really stable one match fixing scandal shoudlnt be able to destroy the scene, i mean there were a lot of match fixing scandals in other sports and they are still fine.
It is just stupid to say savior wanted to destroy BW, he wanted the money and was a greedy bastard, but i am shocked that some people are so extreme with their opinions, its pretty close minded...
I don't know how you can keep posting ill-informed posts and get away with it. You do it in the SC2 forums and you do it here. SaviOr was making money off it. He was no longer profitable after losing to Bisu and got stuck in a perpetual. He never regained form even though he would say, "I'm going to destroy everyone in 2010." I didn't gravitate towards the guy before the scandal. When he was dominating and as I read his interviews he always struck me as very smug. Once again, none of us are talking in absolutes. I wouldn't really call it a domino effect either, but they're all variables and you cannot deny them. All those things the other guys said about him goes back to their culture and that's why it sounds so grotesque. The pro scene really isn't self-sustaining and that's why such things have such an effect. Look at the map rigging in Korea for WCIII and compare it to this. It's not hard to see the side effects. There might be a few people willing to lynch the guy outright, but there are a lot of people including myself trying to tell you the same thing over and over again. It's only one variable and you have to get that through your head.
And i dont know what you mean by that idiotic statement. What ill informed posts? I only targeted the "on purpose" statement of some guys here. It's just mind boggling stupid to say he did on purpose destroy BW, all he did was being greedy and get money that he didn't deserve. This alone has nothing to do with "destroying BW on purpose". If you don't agree with it, then you are just not rational. I dont't even know why you target my post, i did never say anything about savior ever before cause i just don't know the bw scene, so i feel you either targeted the wrong person (me) or you are a troll/high/drunk/whatever.
Idiotic? I'd say it's right on the dime. It's gone on for long enough in the SC2 forums and now it's happening here. Rather than go through your post history let's focus on this thread alone and how many times we have to explain shit to you. Re-read the bottom of my last several posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. My God man.
I never said that he didnt have an effect in the downfall of BW. But the statement "he did it on purpose" is stupid nonetheless. Do you think it was in his interest that the match fixing gets discovered? I don't try to defend him here, what he did was wrong and did damage BW, but that wasn't in his interest, that is ALL i am saying, i think that is not hard to understand, you just tell me things that have nothing to do with my original statement. Maybe you should learn to differentiate some statements, there is more than black and white.
The problem here is that you're the one who brought up the "Savior "intentionally" destroyed BW" argument here.
Nobody here is arguing that Savior destroyed BW intentionally. Even the original post that you reply to says that Savior intentionally brought other people into the match fixing circle, but doesn't imply that Savior intentionally destroyed BW through match fixing.
EPT
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