On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Why did your mother get called a whore? Also why did your mother expect intervention in this instance? Strikes me as curious Mr Rhaegal given your laissez-faire attitude towards insults, the apple falls far from the tree eh?
As I said, if you're a girl and wanna get out of your confort zone and into a boy's world, you gotta have thicker skin. It'll only last 'till you're old news.
I wonder how the Korean female casters are received in Korea. It seems a little bit ironic to me that Korea has us beat on female representation in SC2 (possibly eSports?) despite the fact that sexism and gender expectations in Korea are stronger than in the West.
Korea's even got its first female president before the USA too, ayyyye.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Eh. If it were a guy, I'd have beaten his ass. So he definitely wouldn't have been excused.
But the internet is different. Since there are basically no repercussion for any of your actions online, save for threats or stalking, nothing will ever stop this "sexism" so many people claim exists (interesting because male SC2 players are insulted on a daily basis too but I don't see so many people getting worked up over it).
Would you like other countries to implement the same SSN online registration nonsense that South Korea has?
I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Eh. If it were a guy, I'd have beaten his ass. So he definitely wouldn't have been excused.
But the internet is different. Since there are basically no repercussion for any of your actions online, save for threats or stalking, nothing will ever stop this "sexism" so many people claim exists (interesting because male SC2 players are insulted on a daily basis too but I don't see so many people getting worked up over it).
Would you like other countries to implement the same SSN online registration nonsense that South Korea has?
I would actually. Perhaps not as intrusively, but I do feel the shroud of anonymity destroys the chance of meaningful discourse on so much of the internet.
Might be a tiny bit off topic but has there ever been any female gamer that has been best of the best at a video game? Sure Scarlett can take games off Koreans but I don't think I'd rank her even in top 100 of best sc2 players. Not limiting it to Sc2 either. Brood war? First person shooters? Fighter games? I played CS for years and can't think of a single female. Played HoN for about a year and can't recall any good females. Been playing LoL for 2 years nows and there are no amazing females.
The only female "caster" (more of just an interviewer / host) that I enjoy watching is Sjokz. She does League of Legends EU LCS and it appears she actually knows what she's talking about most of the time. Then again, who knows how much of it she actually knows and how much of it gets fed to her during or right before the interview.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
Yes, but that still doesn't excuse the person who called your mother a whore. You still, intrinsically, know where the blame lies.
It's frustrating that even if you know where the blame lies, you can't do anything about it. That's life for you, unfortunately.
Eh. If it were a guy, I'd have beaten his ass. So he definitely wouldn't have been excused.
But the internet is different. Since there are basically no repercussion for any of your actions online, save for threats or stalking, nothing will ever stop this "sexism" so many people claim exists (interesting because male SC2 players are insulted on a daily basis too but I don't see so many people getting worked up over it).
Would you like other countries to implement the same SSN online registration nonsense that South Korea has?
I don't understand your use of "claim." The sexism exists; that's undeniable. And male SC2 players aren't insulted for being guys, while women are degraded simply for being who they are: women. That's the crucial difference, being insulted for something that you can't change. Minority issues, in any case, always push people's buttons.
I understand you're asking a rhetorical question in that last paragraph, but I don't think Korea's SSN online registration thing is very effective. They have some truly horrible cases of cyberbullying going on over there. And I dunno if it's just the Korean language or what not, but some of the shit that's said by the netizens is shocking, and not much is done about it.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
One of the biggest hurdles for the feminist movement: the very women they purport to be supporting sometimes act in opposition to the movement.
And anyways, there're different branches of the movement that conflict with one another. Some feel that women should be fine expressing their sexuality and shit, while others say that women shouldn't be objectified ... but if you express your sexuality in such a ... stunning fashion, you're implicitly giving people permission to objectify you. Headache-inducing, truly.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
Do people actually believe stuff like this? Don't mean to derail, but this is one of the most absurd claims I have ever read.
To be honest, I'm surprised that we get any new casters. There's so much toxic shit in the twitch chats whenever someone casts, it's a damn miracle we get any new talent.
On July 29 2013 13:54 SidianTheBard wrote: Might be a tiny bit off topic but has there ever been any female gamer that has been best of the best at a video game? Sure Scarlett can take games off Koreans but I don't think I'd rank her even in top 100 of best sc2 players. Not limiting it to Sc2 either. Brood war? First person shooters? Fighter games? I played CS for years and can't think of a single female. Played HoN for about a year and can't recall any good females. Been playing LoL for 2 years nows and there are no amazing females.
The only female "caster" (more of just an interviewer / host) that I enjoy watching is Sjokz. She does League of Legends EU LCS and it appears she actually knows what she's talking about most of the time. Then again, who knows how much of it she actually knows and how much of it gets fed to her during or right before the interview.
Not to my knowledge. It isn't so much a surprise though. There are so few women playing professionally in the first place that the chances one of them would be the best of the best is extremely low.
On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote: You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it.
Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility
now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd.
Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
There's quite a bit of sexism in his posts. His broad logic seems to be that male athletes earn money because they are so skilled, but women can trump that because hey breasts.
That's just silly because good looking and marketable people (whether male or female) get endorsements. Federer is a great example. He's handsome and well spoken and so of course he's good to have on your product. Djokovic isn't as handsome and so gets less endorsements. Unless you're making some strange attack on why some people are better looking/more marketable, I fail to see how endorsements are women's ways to earn more money than men.
Compare like and like. There's no point saying that sharapova earns more than Wayne Rooney, because she looks good and is way more marketable than him (who looks a bit like shrek). You should compare sharapova with good looking male athletes like Fed, Beckham, Christino Ronaldo... Etc.
And when you do, the suggestion that women earn 3 to 5 Times more than men has no basis whatsoever.
Again, we're going with the apples/oranges
Federer-Djokovic isn't a fair comparison. Federer is essentially the 'GOAT' or at least close to it, Djokovic is getting to that level, they are at different points of their career. Djokovic is pretty marketable too and is a pretty funny fucker, but I don't know how that's transferred to endorsements thus far. I'm not a particularly good judge, being a heterosexual male but I find Djokovic to be more handsome anyway
If we were to go for GOAT candidates from the women's game, the comparison is not Sharapova, but Serena Williams, who isn't considered as attractive.
As far as I can tell, the 'attractive' bonus for women's sports merely equalises the earning field within the woman's game. Sharapova earns more than Serena Williams because she's 'hotter', but not more so than say a Federer over in the men's. The boon from sex-appeal has yet to outweigh the sheer sporting excellence that Federer has cultivated over years. The interesting time will be when there is a 'GOAT' candidate in the woman's game in the modern era that is also incredibly attractive, and see how that shapes up.
Sponsorship is a rather distorting factor on earnings, based so much as it is in an idealised image and various external factors. You only have to look at the rise/fall of Tiger Woods to see how transient it can be. Your example of Rooney is interesting because despite his 'shrek' likeness, he pulls in a hell of a lot of money from that, due to perhaps the paucity of English players of such calibre at this particular period of time.
Male athletes get bigger sponsorship because male sport tends to be bigger, so direct comparison is harder. Tennis is close to the only sport that sees anything approaching parity, so I guess it's not a terrible place to have the discussion.
Kournikova earned more than her tennis ability, but the fact she's so often namechecked perhaps is indicative of that being a relatively rare occurrence.
Specific examples aside, I think we are somewhat in agreement as a matter principal. I'm not trying to compare Fed and Djokovic - I'm pointing out why a comparison between sharapova and Djokovic is a little unfair since Djokovic does not have the same kind of market power as her. More broadly I just want to point out that the suggestion that endorsements allow women too earn mute than men is false when you make relevant comparisons between athletes of similar skill and similar marketability. I think the closest example I can think of is sharapova and Beckham. Both competent but not great, both attractive, and both enjoying a fair amount of endorsements. Which shows that the idea that women have an unfair advantage via endorsements is untrue.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
Do people actually believe stuff like this? Don't mean to derail, but this is one of the most absurd claims I have ever read.
oh son, I shit you not. I could spoonfeed you, but if you'd rather call it absurd than so much as a quick google search, so be it.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
I would be grateful if you can post without feeling the need to make huge broadside suggestions about the state of freedom of speech in other people's countries. And I would be further obliged if you read my prior post carefully and note that I never suggested that kitchen jokes are against the law.
Something can be legal but still hugely inappropriate and immature. Which is why I find myself dissatisfied with the thick skin argument since it tends to ignore the fact that the community is making these inappropriate and immature comments. And instead it suggests that it is for the girls to ignore the comments rather than our community trying to be better. I mean we should have higher standards for ourselves.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
I would be grateful if you can post without feeling the need to make huge broadside suggestions about the state of freedom of speech in other people's countries. And I would be further obliged if you read my prior post carefully and note that I never suggested that kitchen jokes are against the law.
Something can be legal but still hugely inappropriate and immature. Which is why I find myself dissatisfied with the thick skin argument since it tends to ignore the fact that the community is making these inappropriate and immature comments. And instead it suggests that it is for the girls to ignore the comments rather than our community trying to be better. I mean we should have higher standards for ourselves.
Human beings are nasty fucking creatures-- smarter Chimps basically. We aren't some spiritually blessed, progressive species. The human race has been in utter chaos since its inception, and they will continue to be so. Just because internet users of a few well-developed countries can come on forums and preach for feminism doesn't mean the world is getting any better. Things like insults in online gaming are considered "issues" to these forum goers, while billions of people starve, and genocide and slavery is happening across the globe.
I mean, if you want to believe that the community is getting better, go for it, but humans will never fail to cause chaos. It's in their nature. Turn off TL forum moderation for 24 hours and watch what happens. Don't delude yourself.
On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
Because a "kitchen" joke isn't against the law, and if you can't suck up an insult in a free country (sorry if free speech doesn't apply to your country) then that's your own problem. A woman called my mom a whore the other day in front of a police officer, and my mom turned to him and he shrugged. People need to grow thicker skin if they want to make it in this world.
I would be grateful if you can post without feeling the need to make huge broadside suggestions about the state of freedom of speech in other people's countries. And I would be further obliged if you read my prior post carefully and note that I never suggested that kitchen jokes are against the law.
Something can be legal but still hugely inappropriate and immature. Which is why I find myself dissatisfied with the thick skin argument since it tends to ignore the fact that the community is making these inappropriate and immature comments. And instead it suggests that it is for the girls to ignore the comments rather than our community trying to be better. I mean we should have higher standards for ourselves.
Human beings are nasty fucking creatures-- smarter Chimps basically. We aren't some spiritually blessed, progressive species. The human race has been in utter chaos since its inception, and they will continue to be so. Just because internet users of a few well-developed countries can come on forums and preach for feminism doesn't mean the world is getting any better. Things like insults in online gaming are considered "issues" to these forum goers, while billions of people starve, and genocide and slavery is happening across the globe.
I mean, if you want to believe that the community is getting better, go for it, but humans will never fail to cause chaos. It's in their nature. Turn off TL forum moderation for 24 hours and watch what happens. Don't delude yourself.
Sorry but I find this statement to be needlessly pessimistic, and in any event makes a false equivalence between is and ought. On the first point, I would argue that most of human history would disagree with you. Yes there was the world wars and so on, but as a species we have been making steps towards greater equality. We had the civil rights movement, and no longer see women as property. In the recent months, several countries have pulled through marriage equality legislation. Not perfect, o grant you, but hardly the chaotic intelligent chimps that you a're suggesting. You are of course entitled to your opinion, however pessimistic.
On the second point you're mixing up what the situation is now, and what it should be. Even accepting that we are just monkeys, it is a fair point to make that our community should be more mature.
On July 29 2013 13:51 JP Dayne wrote: I just remembered a fun fact. The UFC didn't have a female roster. It's rival at the time, Strikeforce, did. UFC president said they'd never have a girl division in the octagon. IT bit them in their asses, coz female mma fights are awesome, and gave a profit. 'Till they bought Strikeforce out and took control of all the girls contracts and started promoting their fights. Now, the girls are good athletes, some would kick ass of most men in their relative weightclass. But for a while now the UFC have been promoting the girls as sexual objects. Their main fighters appear naked in front of ESPN magazine, they're starring a reality show next month. The sad part is, the girls don't give a shit. They're ok, at the very least. In fact, the two most prominent ones, love the attention. They love being the center of arguments. They love being sexually wanted. You can see it in their faces, even tho they might say otherwise, like "uh well I hoped I could be just training and fighting instead of posing naked for a 15 pages photo shooting covered in oil making faces". I could make this argument over any sport. If you promote girls as sexually atractive, all of us, male viewers, will no doubt anchor on that. If you promote them as pure athletes, well, SOME of us will make jokes and stuff, but, who knows, even respect them for what they do, if they're good enough. you just gotta give it a chance.
Nah, that's just Ronda Rousey being Ronda Rousey. She's like the new Gina Carano, who gets a lot of attention because of her looks and will probably lose her focus on training because the amount of time spent with her other "business ventures".
Anyhow, this thread has turned into a shithole because everyone is talking about Scarlett, and not talking about ZombieGrub, who is a really good caster, and even casted some of the MLG group matches. Then it turns into "This is the way society is hur hur" vs "Society can change!!!" and we're talking about some irrelevant social issues that easily could be sidestepped just by saying "Hey, it doesn't matter if you're male or female, black or white, if you're a good caster, welcome aboard!"
EPT
