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On July 29 2013 11:23 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote:let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability. you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women. Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR. What? These men EARNED their place to get to the top. Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has. Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer. It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1.
I can't believe what I'm reading.
So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis).
Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism.
Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane.
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livibee and cheekyduck - the australian female duo - have been casting some sc2 events since a long time ago
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On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote:You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it. Show nested quote +Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd. Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
i didn't say what you quoted. someone else did. i don't think it is too far of a stretch to say that kournikova at rank 8 was making 3-5x more than whoever her ranked 8 male counterpart was though.
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On July 29 2013 12:00 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 11:23 superstartran wrote:On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote:let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability. you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women. Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR. What? These men EARNED their place to get to the top. Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has. Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer. It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1. I can't believe what I'm reading. So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis). Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism. Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane.
Agreed with your post until the bold. SC2 is insanely biased towards women-- mid-masters players get flown over the world and get onto pro teams simply because they are women and have decent looks.
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Terranist, that wasn't meant towards you. I really have to start name tagging my quotes. The quote and my discussion in this thread was towards SlixSC. sorry for the confusion. I'm not denying there are examples of people being paid for their looks. but it happens for both sexes, not just female.
Edit: The issue I have is that the quote says "professional female athletes", and "mildly successful" earn 3-5x than a successful male athlete. This just isn't the case. I would also argue that rank 8 in the world is a bit more than mildly successful. with the terms female athletes, mildly, and successful male athlete it makes a direct comparison to anna K making 3-5x that of the top ranking male players, not just rank #8
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On July 29 2013 12:03 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 12:00 SgtCoDFish wrote:On July 29 2013 11:23 superstartran wrote:On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote:let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability. you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women. Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR. What? These men EARNED their place to get to the top. Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has. Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer. It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1. I can't believe what I'm reading. So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis). Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism. Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane. Agreed with your post until the bold. SC2 is insanely biased towards women-- mid-masters players get flown over the world and get onto pro teams simply because they are women and have decent looks.
They're not being flown around the world as players (assuming you're talking about people like ailuj and Maddelisk), they're being flown around as marketing. Obviously no team is picking up mid masters or diamond players for the chance they'll win a tournament, because they won't. And how you can see that a few teams have 1 or 2 female players on their roster consisting of 99% males and think it's biased towards women is beyond me.
The actual professional women players (Scarlett, Flo, Aphrodite being the major good ones that spring to mind) very much earned their positions with their skills.
People like Maddelisk and ailuj being "signed" is the same as people like Nathanias being signed. They're not good enough to actually seriously play a match for a major team but they bring something to the table.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Doesn't really bother me particularly, would be nice if people would stop comparing apples to oranges so frequently though. Comparing people's salaries across sports and genders, or between non-comparable levels of players is just pointless.
On topic, if a female caster is actually good, by all means. My personal preferences on voices would be somewhat towards the Tasteless/Maynarde on day 3 levels of gravelly testosterone-fuelled menace, so I just don't particularly like the tonality of most women's voices for something like casting.
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On July 29 2013 12:12 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 12:03 Rhaegal wrote:On July 29 2013 12:00 SgtCoDFish wrote:On July 29 2013 11:23 superstartran wrote:On July 29 2013 11:10 bigbadgreen wrote:let me clarify for you. it is true that anna kournikova was making millions in endorsements and never winning tournaments. i don't know of any male athletes that have that ability. you're still hanging on to nothing. there are countless NBA #1 draft picks who make millions and don't win anything, some even drop out of the NBA after their initial contract ends, example Hasheem Thabeet Yet he made millions. There are many other athletes who get paid and the skill isn't there. This isn't unique to females. There are quite a few male athletes who bank endorsement money without a performance to back it up. I will throw out post car accident tiger woods. After the divorce he lost a lot of major sponsors, buick, nike and tag heuer to name a few. He also hasn't won anything major since then and is still one of the top endorsement earners in golf. His pay per win is no worse than anna K. I would also ask you to give one more example. Anna K is an anomaly. I can't argue she earned more than what she was worth on the court. But you're acting like this only happens with women. Edit: came up with the perfect example. Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR. He has won some races but never been that close to winning the entire series championship. Yet he is one of the top endorsement earners. His endorsements are not skill based. He has his dad's name and for a long time was single and a heart throb marketed towards the female audience of NASCAR. What? These men EARNED their place to get to the top. Even NBA/NCAA #1 draft picks earn their spot; they played good enough in college to become worthy of a #1 draft pick. And even though Tiger Woods hasn't won a major, he is ranked #1 in the world right now. Almost every single man you listed has proven far more worth than someone like Kournikova has. Kournikova at the height of her tennis talent was #8 in the world, thanks to an incredibly weak field at the time. Kournikova was being paid top dollar simply because of her good looks, not because of her ability to play. And it's not just Kournikova; look at Maria Sharapova. Yes, excellent tennis player, but gets paid way more than any other men's tennis player other than Roger Federer. Currently right now, Sharapova earns more than any other male tennis player but Federer, and yet isn't even the best in the world, nor has she ever proven she was a legendary tennis player like Federer. It's even more hilarious that if you look at that tennis chart, you see Li Na, Williams, and Wozniaki out earning Djokovic in terms of endorsements. The only reason why he beats them is because he racked up a ton of money in winning tournaments or going deep into them. Note that Novak Djokovic is also the CURRENT world #1. I can't believe what I'm reading. So because the money a person earns from endorsements doesn't exactly correlate to their position in a list of the greatest tennis players of all time, they somehow only got there because of their gender or how they look? It's not that they're better business minded, that they have a better team or better infrastructure, or that they focus more of their efforts on marketing (not to suggest they don't primarily focus on tennis). Perhaps good looking people earn a bit more, and I could certainly believe that. But to suggest or even hint in the slightest way that these women you listed, all of whom fall into the top 10 in the world for what they do (the top 10 of all the thousands of players) have not earned their positions and only got there on the back of their gender is just sexism. Certainly, any male who has deluded himself into thinking that the environment of basically any major sport or esport is unfairly biased towards women is insane. Agreed with your post until the bold. SC2 is insanely biased towards women-- mid-masters players get flown over the world and get onto pro teams simply because they are women and have decent looks. They're not being flown around the world as players (assuming you're talking about people like ailuj and Maddelisk), they're being flown around as marketing. Obviously no team is picking up mid masters or diamond players for the chance they'll win a tournament, because they won't. And how you can see that a few teams have 1 or 2 female players on their roster consisting of 99% males and think it's biased towards women is beyond me. The actual professional women players (Scarlett, Flo, Aphrodite being the major good ones that spring to mind) very much earned their positions with their skills. People like Maddelisk and ailuj being "signed" is the same as people like Nathanias being signed. They're not good enough to actually seriously play a match for a major team but they bring something to the table.
I didn't want to mention names, but Flo is who I was alluding to. She is mid masters, not a good player in any sense of the word. If she were a male no team would be even slightly interested in acquiring her.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
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I didn't want to mention names, but Flo is who I was alluding to. She is mid masters, not a good player in any sense of the word. If she were a male no team would be even slightly interested in acquiring her.
Rhaegal, even if it were true and Quantic do have her signed because she is female it still doesn't mean esports is insanely female biased. One example does not make a bias. If every team had a mid masters or lower female on their A team roster then you might have a case. Quantic obviously sees something in Flo or they wouldn't have her there. I doubt her being female is that reason.
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On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
That's largely because people instantly get banned if they don't keep a liberal/open mindset towards the sexes. Look at twitch chat or reddit when there is a female involved.
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certainly part of the equation is that there is less female interest in starcraft than male interest, it would be silly to deny that. however, it would also be intellectually irresponsible to ignore the social context which serves as the reason for the lack of female interest - put simply, women have to go through more than men do in order to be visibly interested in starcraft (as well as many other stereotypically male hobbies). they are subject by default to scrutiny, vitriol and mockery for no reason other than being female and talking about or playing the game.
i'm a straight man - if i liked ballet and wanted to be a dancer, i would have to seriously factor in the inevitability of people not only assuming i'm gay but attacking and mocking me personally on that basis. even if ballet were my one true passion in life, there would be a huge incentive for me to avoid it, because not being subject to degrading, homophobic attitudes makes for a more pleasant and stable life experience. same principle for female gamers/SC2 players, just in reverse
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On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
I think there is a vocal minority that pushes it to the limit that really puts a black mark on the whole community. It's not TL per se, but the places TL links to a lot. Twitch channel chats and youtube comments can get pretty bad. In general TL is a pretty even place, there are good mods who are fair. It's not always so at other places. I am in no way implying that TL promotes said behavior or has any control over it. It is in the best interest to have TL promote those streams etc... but some of the fallout can get pushed here because the community is discussed here. So witnessing things on a stream chat during a wcs event might get talked about and a discussion erupts.
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On July 29 2013 12:22 bigbadgreen wrote:Show nested quote +I didn't want to mention names, but Flo is who I was alluding to. She is mid masters, not a good player in any sense of the word. If she were a male no team would be even slightly interested in acquiring her.
Rhaegal, even if it were true and Quantic do have her signed because she is female it still doesn't mean esports is insanely female biased. One example does not make a bias. If every team had a mid masters or lower female on their A team roster then you might have a case. Quantic obviously sees something in Flo or they wouldn't have her there. I doubt her being female is that reason.
the fact that "because she's female" is a point of interest at all is proof in itself of bias against women. the idea of women in esports is exciting specifically because female pro gamers have to deal with an incredible volume of invasive and violent attitudes, so the courage and conviction of ignoring those attitudes makes for a better story, as does the idea that the first few female progamers will be visible role models who can encourage more women to get involved.
are we going to complain that rosa parks and martin luther king wouldn't be famous if they weren't black? of course they wouldn't, because there is an appropriate social context!
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ugh, edit is not quote, sorry
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On July 29 2013 12:30 Waise wrote:
certainly part of the equation is that there is less female interest in starcraft than male interest, it would be silly to deny that. however, it would also be intellectually irresponsible to ignore the social context which serves as the reason for the lack of female interest - put simply, women have to go through more than men do in order to be visibly interested in starcraft (as well as many other stereotypically male hobbies). they are subject by default to scrutiny, vitriol and mockery for no reason other than being female and talking about or playing the game.
i'm a straight man - if i liked ballet and wanted to be a dancer, i would have to seriously factor in the inevitability of people not only assuming i'm gay but attacking and mocking me personally on that basis. even if ballet were my one true passion in life, there would be a huge incentive for me to avoid it, because not being subject to degrading, homophobic attitudes makes for a more pleasant and stable life experience. same principle for female gamers/SC2 players, just in reverse
Just go play the game? I'm fed up with this line being trotted out. Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society.
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Have none of you seen
ZOMBIEGRUB!?
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On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means.
It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage.
Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman.
A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up.
And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored.
We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
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On July 29 2013 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Just go play the game?
so it's your contention that if people prefer to avoid the emotional trauma of being sexually degraded and ridiculed for absolutely no valid reason, they don't deserve to succeed at starcraft?
Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society. are you seriously going to try to argue that scarlett hasn't had to read an incredible amount of absolutely ruthless, inexcusable, degrading attacks on her character because of her situation?
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On July 29 2013 12:39 Waise wrote:so it's your contention that if people prefer to avoid the emotional trauma of being sexually degraded and ridiculed for absolutely no valid reason, they don't deserve to succeed at starcraft? Show nested quote +Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society. are you seriously going to try to argue that scarlett hasn't had to read an incredible amount of absolutely ruthless, inexcusable, degrading attacks on her character because of her situation?
If you compare them to the positive goodwill towards her, no.
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EPT
