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On July 29 2013 12:39 Waise wrote:so it's your contention that if people prefer to avoid the emotional trauma of being sexually degraded and ridiculed for absolutely no valid reason, they don't deserve to succeed at starcraft? Show nested quote +Scarlett is a REALLY well-liked and followed player in the scene, who is transgendered (and female too) which is something much more discriminated against in greater society. are you seriously going to try to argue that scarlett hasn't had to read an incredible amount of absolutely ruthless, inexcusable, degrading attacks on her character because of her situation?
Do you not think that Incontrol, Huk, DJ Wheat, or any other male isn't bombarded with hate either? It's called ignoring it. People told DJ Wheat they hoped his family died when he had to leave MLG because of a hospitalization... Incontrol is called fat on a daily basis. If you don't have thick skin, then being surrounded by anonymous users simply isn't for you.
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On July 29 2013 12:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
If you compare them to the positive goodwill towards her, no.
good god, then you are in massive denial. have you ever been in a busy twitch chat and seen scarlett's name come up?
the fact that people feel the need to bloviate their opinions about how "science is science and i call people the sex they are" is bad enough on its own, but on top of that you get people making comments about her genitalia, her sex life and sexual habits, using terms like "tranny" and "he-she", and other things i don't even want to continue writing because it makes me sick to type them out
besides which, even if you were right (you're not), what exactly does that have to do with the point of the odds being stacked against women in gaming? it doesn't matter that it's possible for any one particular woman to ignore sexism and do it anyway - the thing being discussed is that women are subject to a host of social and emotional obstacles that are simply nonexistent for men. that's not fair, and as long as it is the case, those of us who are outraged by it will continue to make an issue out of it
the ideal endgame is that when men make sexist comments they are overwhelmingly shamed for it, rather than women being overwhelmingly shamed just for entering the scene. and if you try to tell me it's not like that, again, you're in denial. TL is probably the most progressive SC community on the net and is in no way a representation of how the gaming world or the world in general treats people
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Northern Ireland23824 Posts
I wish people would understand the mentality of the 'hater' better.
They seek to hurt others, the choice of their particular barb is what is most likely to accomplish that, or what their lazy minds can think up.
Female players - Sexist insults
Incontrol - Weight insults
The concept is the same, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of a sexist scene, but of the small but vocal subsection of social malcontents and bitter cunts who reside on the internet.
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On July 29 2013 12:42 Rhaegal wrote:
If you don't have thick skin, then being surrounded by anonymous users simply isn't for you.
so you're a victim blamer, plain and simple. as disgusting as that is, at least your views are clear and concise
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Northern Ireland23824 Posts
A player that is transgender AND female, who is one of the more popular foreign players in the entire scene counts for nothing then?
Prejudice and subsequent discrimination from that often come from ignorance. I can say that I have never knowingly met a transgendered person. I'd imagine many others on TL are the same.
That a player is accepted and obtains a big fanbase from this community is a positive reflection on us, but is rarely recognised.
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On July 29 2013 12:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I wish people would understand the mentality of the 'hater' better.
They seek to hurt others, the choice of their particular barb is what is most likely to accomplish that, or what their lazy minds can think up.
Female players - Sexist insults
Incontrol - Weight insults
The concept is the same, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of a sexist scene, but of the small but vocal subsection of social malcontents and bitter cunts who reside on the internet.
Yeah, they should be ignored because they'll be there to pick on anyone for anything.
But you get threads, like this one, where some people will argue things like "women have a huge advantage in esports because they're women" totally seriously, because they actually are sexist.
There are trolls who should be ignored, sure. But there are plenty of people who actually believe the stuff they say.
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On July 29 2013 12:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
I wish people would understand the mentality of the 'hater' better.
They seek to hurt others, the choice of their particular barb is what is most likely to accomplish that, or what their lazy minds can think up.
Female players - Sexist insults
Incontrol - Weight insults
The concept is the same, I don't think it's necessarily reflective of a sexist scene, but of the small but vocal subsection of social malcontents and bitter cunts who reside on the internet.
it's incredibly offensive that you would reduce the gravity of sexism to "people are mean and they tailor their insults". it really seems like you don't actually understand how damaging and pervasive sexist attitudes are, not in the gaming community but in pretty much the entire world.
the things people say about women in starcraft are essentially the same things they say about women staying in the kitchen, being less intelligent at manual and scientific tasks, being bad drivers, being shallow, manipulative, deceptive, slutty, and everything else in that bag of tricks. the motive is to marginalize them and degrade them until they simply no longer have the willpower to reach for and achieve what they truly want instead of what patriarchal society tells them they should want (which is to trade sex for shoes and pretty necklaces)
believe me, i understand what you are trying to say. there are some vicious people out there who do act in the way you describe - seeking any vulnerability in order to inflict harm. but i want you to understand how myopic, ignorant and offensive it is for you to actually claim that sexism is not its own discrete entity, independent of the abstract threat of "people being mean"
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On July 29 2013 12:53 Wombat_NI wrote:
A player that is transgender AND female, who is one of the more popular foreign players in the entire scene counts for nothing then?
what are you even talking about? it sounds like you're trying to say "because scarlett overcame an overwhelming amount of prejudice, we shouldn't try to fix prejudice - obviously women can just ignore it, so there's no problem!"
scarlett is an important figure because she overcame prejudice. if you deny that prejudice exists, then you are denying what makes her important.
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Northern Ireland23824 Posts
I totally understand, as many of my older posts on feminism will attest to. I just don't particularly care anymore.
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Why is it that every topic has to devolve into shit like this? The OP content can never be discussed for what it was meant.... This is getting annoying to read everyday.
Anywho, there are a few fairly popular girls that stream occasionally here on TL but I can't remember their tags. Not as many women are playing SC as guys (duh  so there are even fewer casters I imagine.
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Hate to disagree with you, Wombat, but I think you're heavily overestimating the maturity of most of the gaming scene. The reason TL is so progressive is because this forum is heavily moderated (and well-moderated for the most part). If it weren't, it'd turn into a shithole; see any Reddit thread in which Scarlett (or any other woman) is mentioned. It's disgusting. Almost as bad as the downright insulting and hateful comments are those that maintain that women are simply worse at games because they're female -- as if genetics is the end all, be all of a person's potential.
In any case, Scarlett's success in the scene and her popularity do not really attest to the maturity of the scene but rather to her skill; she's good enough to stick around and show people that, hey, she is good at what she does, and that will draw in people no matter what. She's largely popular in spite of her situation, not because of it.
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On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote:You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it. Show nested quote +Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd. Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks.
There's quite a bit of sexism in his posts. His broad logic seems to be that male athletes earn money because they are so skilled, but women can trump that because hey breasts.
That's just silly because good looking and marketable people (whether male or female) get endorsements. Federer is a great example. He's handsome and well spoken and so of course he's good to have on your product. Djokovic isn't as handsome and so gets less endorsements. Unless you're making some strange attack on why some people are better looking/more marketable, I fail to see how endorsements are women's ways to earn more money than men.
Compare like and like. There's no point saying that sharapova earns more than Wayne Rooney, because she looks good and is way more marketable than him (who looks a bit like shrek). You should compare sharapova with good looking male athletes like Fed, Beckham, Christino Ronaldo... Etc.
And when you do, the suggestion that women earn 3 to 5 Times more than men has no basis whatsoever.
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On July 29 2013 08:29 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 07:55 KingAce wrote:
I am hesitant about the enhancement of female roles in gaming communities. Simply because I just can't stomach the amount of vile that comes out in chat rooms and youtube comments already for the female presence we currently have.
I wouldn't wish that kind of degrading abuse on anyone. I am still confused about the random female hate gaming communities continuously display the rare occasions we get females anywhere near the game.
Most of the times the criticism isn't even objective.
There's alot of jealous that goes on because alot of females abuse the fact that they are simply of the opposite gender to attract viewers simply for money. And if you don't think this is true, then tune into Tara Babcocks stream. If you seriously think Tara doesn't get viewers simply based on her sex appeal, I really don't know what to tell you. Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility. And please don't white knight and say that the attention is unwarranted. You seriously think that these female streamers/personalities/etc. don't know that they are in a male dominant environment, and that they are going to get a ton of hate for no reason?
Male athletes make more money than female athletes will ever dream of. And male athletes also use their sexuality if they have the looks to do so.
White Knight I love that word.
I don't know this Tara Babcocks person. But I know of legitimate female players. I know of female gamers that rank higher than most male gamers in specific games, yet still get the same retarded comments.
So what do you respond with when a female gamer is legit in both skill and effort and is still ridiculed for her gender, despite the fact she isn't exploiting her sexuality?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 13:03 babylon wrote:
Hate to disagree with you, Wombat, but I think you're heavily overestimating the maturity of most of the gaming scene. The reason TL is so progressive is because this forum is heavily moderated (and well-moderated for the most part). If it weren't, it'd turn into a shithole; see any Reddit thread in which Scarlett (or any other woman) is mentioned. It's disgusting. Almost as bad as the downright insulting and hateful comments are those that maintain that women are simply worse at games because they're female -- as if genetics is the end all, be all of a person's potential.
It also helps that the community on TL is on the old side (early mid 20s on average iirc, a big factor being ancient BW-fans) and not a bunch of immature teenagers who make up most of the internet. TL is not indicative of the gaming community as a whole. Sure TL is a great place and that's why a lot of pros are part of this particular community. But that's because TL is often the exception to the unfortunate rule.
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I think his final sentence is kinda silly too. It's as if he is saying it's okay to be jealous and hate people for no reason because it's a male dominated community and they should have seen it coming!
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On July 29 2013 12:38 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means. It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage. Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman. A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up. And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored. We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating.
Here're some thoughts I'd like to point:
I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said:
- TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight".
- It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have?
- She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
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Its a simple numbers game, its the same reason there are no real top professional female sc2 players other than Scarlett and maybe flo (yes, i know there are others but not top pros). Honestly, I can't think of a female who is on the casting level of artosis or day9 ... and if they are not good, I would rather not watch, but that goes for bad male casters also.
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Northern Ireland23824 Posts
Oh don't get me wrong, I don't dispute some of the more unsavoury elements of the internet. I suppose I put them into the 'angry basement dweller' category, rather than evaluate them properly as expressions of actual prejudice as a matter of course. I had to do this to maintain my sanity though, but yeah perhaps I'm not qualified to really talk about the scene as a whole.
I don't dispute Scarlett gets a lot of puerile and nasty comments, but equally in her I see a VERY skilled player who is an active and engaging poster on here, and who has been taken in and embraced to our collective as a consequence of that. In her case the whole 'skill will out' thing kind of bears fruit, hence we need more Scarletts!
If you're looking at non-players, Soe is someone who seems to get a lot of respect here (not sure about the rest of the internet). Now, I'm not saying everyone has a functioning bullshit filter, but at least in certain infamous cases of 'sexism' in the gaming community, it's to me not been about that at all. It's been a reaction to what is perceived as fakery, or a desire to make money out of a scene that is still rather niche and hardcore, and that's not restricted to women.
It's a complex issue, especially with attractive women in the scene. Playing pseudo-psychologist for a minute I would gather that it's some kind of latent rage displacement in many cases. I mean, guys that didn't get the hot girls in school, or perhaps were ridiculed by them can carry a LOT of angst because of that, so they lash out on that basis.
I don't dispute that sexism exists in gaming, but it's everywhere. I don't see articles in papers bemoaning the sexism of the music industry, or the newspaper industry (notably the gossip rags), or indeed in 'regular' sports and it's JUST as prevalent. Most but the more enlightened TL-dwellers don't really want to evaluate gender relations at a deep level and that is what needs to be done on a cross-societal basis if the greater evil of sexism is to be eroded.
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On July 29 2013 13:11 JP Dayne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 12:38 SgtCoDFish wrote:On July 29 2013 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Incidentally, why is the 'scene' so frequently called sexist?
By general societal standards, TL is a pretty good place in terms of respect for women, by and large. It's not the hellhole that people make out by any means. It doesn't help that literally anything is written about women in esports, a horde of sweaty fingers furiously tap away at their keyboards to assure us all that they've determined that women are indeed equal and that nothing further needs to be done. Some even go as far as to suggest that women have an advantage. Gaming in general, all scenes included, is pretty sexist. For every woman that tries to actually put herself out there there are hundreds of haters (trolls maybe, but they're still there and very vocal) who tell her that she's whoring for attention and money, and that she can't really like video games because she's a woman. A great example is how it only took about three pages for a kitchen "joke" (in ""s because it's about as funny as a bag of dead kittens) to spring up. And then the internet-communities have developed a great way of ignoring any argument against the sexism by calling people who stand up for equality "white knights," which just completely stops the argument as one side sticks their fingers in their ears and shouts "YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO GET LAID I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Of course that only applies to the men on the sensible side; the women just get objectified and ignored. We're lucky on TL, specifically, because the very worst get quickly banned and it's not such a huge problem to have at least a reasonable discussion, even if that discussion is frustrating. Here're some thoughts I'd like to point: I'm a fan of criticism. It builds character and improves your surroundings. I'm also a fan of tough love. That being said: - TL is indeed the paradise of the so called whiteknights (which incidentally prevented me from creating an account in here, even tho I lurk since god knows how long. If there's something more annoying than a "troll", is a "whiteknight". - It's not really a thin line between proving yourself and being entitled. A girl should get places based on merit, not on quota or "whiteknightisms". If a girl just shows up, play well, take out some names, and god-almighty, wins a tourney, and won't need to "attention whore" herself (or if her team doesn't put her on the spot like slayers did with that young girl), what argument said "trolls" would have? - She is to expect some trollisms at first, like jokes, and "what, women on my internets, playing mu games", it's bound to happen dude, we have a lot of immature kids watching the stream. It's videogames. AND it's the internet. In my experience as an amateur college football coach of girls (football, not handegg), all you have to do is make sure the girls understanding they're not in their most confortable zone genderwise, and, the most important thing, THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THE SHIT. If they ignore and are good enough, and stay in the game, the impact will fade, it won't be news anymore, and they'll just be one more team playing for their school. The same applies for e-sports. IF a girl is cool enough, sticks to it and have some stomach, she'll just be another competitor and no one would care she's a girl.
I think that few people are suggesting that girls be given spots because of their gender. And I think the argument that " it's the internet ignore it" sort of glosses over a huge problem with the community. Why should girls be expected to put up with sexist or creepy comments, when really it is the community who should be cleaning up their act? Some amount of thick skin is require d to be a public personality but why should anyone accept that the problem with sexist comments lie kitchen jokes is that girls can't ignore them, instead of realizing that the person massing the joke is an idiot.
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Northern Ireland23824 Posts
On July 29 2013 13:04 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 11:49 bigbadgreen wrote:You still haven't explained Dale Jr. it doesn't matter. you brought up one example. And #8 in the world. How dare she. Yes she got endorsements because of her looks. Aren't you still trying to defend what you said. I'll quote it. Professional female athletes get a ton of flak all the time, far more than some male athletes do. Want to know why? Because even a mildly successful female athlete is able to make sometimes 3-5x more than a successful male athlete can. When you have the potential to basically triple your salary simply based on your gender, you're going to simply have to deal with what comes with that possibility now name more than one example. anna K is so easy, and she never made 3-5x what the top men make. the way I see it it's not even close to the same pay, let alone 3-5x. You're still clinging to one anomaly to support this theory that people are lining up to throw cash at all female athletes just because they are women. It's absurd. Edit: now what about male athletes who get endorsements based on sex appeal. skill or not. I think David Beckham is a great example. Do you think his underwear ads are because he was so skilled at soccer? He may have broke in because of his skill but he is squeezing every last cent out of his good looks. There's quite a bit of sexism in his posts. His broad logic seems to be that male athletes earn money because they are so skilled, but women can trump that because hey breasts. That's just silly because good looking and marketable people (whether male or female) get endorsements. Federer is a great example. He's handsome and well spoken and so of course he's good to have on your product. Djokovic isn't as handsome and so gets less endorsements. Unless you're making some strange attack on why some people are better looking/more marketable, I fail to see how endorsements are women's ways to earn more money than men. Compare like and like. There's no point saying that sharapova earns more than Wayne Rooney, because she looks good and is way more marketable than him (who looks a bit like shrek). You should compare sharapova with good looking male athletes like Fed, Beckham, Christino Ronaldo... Etc. And when you do, the suggestion that women earn 3 to 5 Times more than men has no basis whatsoever.
Again, we're going with the apples/oranges 
Federer-Djokovic isn't a fair comparison. Federer is essentially the 'GOAT' or at least close to it, Djokovic is getting to that level, they are at different points of their career. Djokovic is pretty marketable too and is a pretty funny fucker, but I don't know how that's transferred to endorsements thus far. I'm not a particularly good judge, being a heterosexual male but I find Djokovic to be more handsome anyway
If we were to go for GOAT candidates from the women's game, the comparison is not Sharapova, but Serena Williams, who isn't considered as attractive.
As far as I can tell, the 'attractive' bonus for women's sports merely equalises the earning field within the woman's game. Sharapova earns more than Serena Williams because she's 'hotter', but not more so than say a Federer over in the men's. The boon from sex-appeal has yet to outweigh the sheer sporting excellence that Federer has cultivated over years. The interesting time will be when there is a 'GOAT' candidate in the woman's game in the modern era that is also incredibly attractive, and see how that shapes up.
Sponsorship is a rather distorting factor on earnings, based so much as it is in an idealised image and various external factors. You only have to look at the rise/fall of Tiger Woods to see how transient it can be. Your example of Rooney is interesting because despite his 'shrek' likeness, he pulls in a hell of a lot of money from that, due to perhaps the paucity of English players of such calibre at this particular period of time.
Male athletes get bigger sponsorship because male sport tends to be bigger, so direct comparison is harder. Tennis is close to the only sport that sees anything approaching parity, so I guess it's not a terrible place to have the discussion.
Kournikova earned more than her tennis ability, but the fact she's so often namechecked perhaps is indicative of that being a relatively rare occurrence.
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