On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
On December 25 2012 22:34 playa wrote: Yeah, emphatic "GG's" is something any BW fan should have fond feelings towards. But... if your tone doesn't reflect what kind of game it was or what just transpired, then it's just awkward and takes away from legit good games. If they're bad, that sounds natural: how many are good at anything when they just start doing it? You just have to wait and see how it pans out. Bad casting or not, if that ever becomes a deal breaker, then the game is not that great anyways.
This. the GEEEGEEEEs and screaming feel SO out of place and forced I cringe every time.
On December 25 2012 22:34 playa wrote: Yeah, emphatic "GG's" is something any BW fan should have fond feelings towards. But... if your tone doesn't reflect what kind of game it was or what just transpired, then it's just awkward and takes away from legit good games. If they're bad, that sounds natural: how many are good at anything when they just start doing it? You just have to wait and see how it pans out. Bad casting or not, if that ever becomes a deal breaker, then the game is not that great anyways.
This. the GEEEGEEEEs and screaming feel SO out of place and forced I cringe every time.
Especially when you compare it to Korean cast, that is "known" for their exciting casting style and yelling.
On December 26 2012 18:05 iNcontroL wrote: Agreed and appreciate the post husky
Sooooo... why don´t you two guys cast the damn thing? Why in the world doesn´t anyone want to cast?
My bet is on the money. But at this point, i would expect KeSPA doing stuff like giving some camera shots to the english guys while speaking after the games etc etc, because right now, there is no way to start to "love" this casters. Pretty much the tastosis formula, and yet, the lack of an analytical caster on that duo will be always an issue.
On December 26 2012 18:05 iNcontroL wrote: Agreed and appreciate the post husky
Sooooo... why don´t you two guys cast the damn thing? Why in the world doesn´t anyone want to cast?
I would imagine they aren't offering enough money for more main stream casters to spend 8 months there.
I hope at least these two guys work on improving there casting and promoting the league. It isn't hard to make a forum post introducing themselves/asking for constructive feedback or a reddit thread to let people know exactly when the games start/who is playing etc.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
Criticizing KesPA for bad decision making doesn't mean they are gang up on the newcomers = = Or are you going to say that Proleague is not a premier tournament?
Newcomers can improve but does that mean Proleague should be the place for practicing their casting? I don't really agree with that, especially when people think it is the most prestigious team league in Korea or even in the world. Caster is a very important role in the English (or any language) broadcast. Also, it make a bad first impression if you start with casters that are not very good too. People tend to remember something like "a league with bad casters" and don't change their opinions because they don't bother to look at it again even there is an improvement later.
To be honest, SNM and Whiplash are not that bad (especially Whiplash). But they are still not good enough to be the face of Proleague, if KesPA wants people to view Proleague as a premier tournament. I totally believe that they can improve a lot after they have more experience in casting, and I will continue to try to support them by leaving criticism in the LR thread. However, many people have already had bad first impression with them, and to a certain extent with the English broadcast of Proleague. That's not a fault of casters but more on KesPA and their decision.
And last point, I don't really think they criticize the casters, they more criticize the decision making of KesPA.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
Lucky Incontrol is a player not a caster
Husky and Frodan have been spot on Proleague should in theory be the pinnacle of highest level Starcraft (second to Gom of course) to put 2 unknown people who I don't believe have any casting experience near the top or near the level of wha they're being asked to do is absolute madness.
Name me any sport where at the highest level 2 unknown casters with little chemistry and no chance to interact with viewers outside of talking has worked
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
I fully agree, and honestly? I don't think the casting is that horrible to begin with compared to most casters.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
Kinda agree with this. Couldn't any more established casters just reach out and offer them some advice or criticism?
The problem with the "professional" casters is they are expensive. The games are good because of the players, not the casters. The players are what draw me to the show, the Casters HELP to make it interesting.
Husky may be experienced, as is incontrol, and MANY others, but I dont think Kespa or other organisations see the financial value of hiring them over a newer caster who would be less than a quarter the price tag.
Then there is the matter of experienced casters feeling entitled. In this industry, or any for that matter, you can never be complacent and feel that you are entitled to work a premier series over a newcomer. That's just a bad work ethic and you'll find yourself without work before long. The new guy is cheaper, and when business is business, its only about money.
All the casters should work hard and do their job and help each other. This sadly does not occur much. Sure, the premier guys work with each other, plugging each others shows, working on different projects, but they alienate the new guys, and only want to cross promote with larger entities, never smaller ones.
I am disappointed, having viewed from the outside in for some time, that the experienced casters are doing almost everything they can do keep the "business" theirs, and not helping new casters, and if they do, the help is limited.
There are brilliant casters too, with strong business models, which are honest and have integrity. They have diversified, so if Starcraft should drop as a revenue stream, they are covered. Others are so deep in SC2 that if it should fail, they fall down. They probably are noticing revenues and income is lower than last year, and have increased their production (volume) to compensate as they lose views and viewers.
But, it all changes when HOTS comes out. That I guarantee. It will all change completely.
On December 26 2012 18:54 FrodaN wrote: The 1st point conclusions from Geoff is spot on: KeSPA desparately needs to improve the english side of production and casting. I've watched probably 75% of proleague thus far and have noticed a few things. There is literally no ability for SNM/whiplash to physically address the camera and therefore have to do a complete radio broadcast. This in itself is tougher to establish personality and conversation because viewers can't identify who is talking to them. If you need a more vivid example, think about how much emotional charge an ace match would lose if there was no player shots or camera settings to connect the spectators to the players.
Also, to bring in TWO new people simultaneously is extremely risky (and clearly not paying off currently considering the public outrage). Reliable analysis is much like a credit score nowadays as it is easy to wreck early on and tough to build considering the brutal scrutiny of listeners (including me!). I would like to think that a large, significant chunk of my assimilation into the NASL broadcast was because there was Bitterdam, Gretorp, and our new EP there to basically carry me until I understood what the hell was going on and what was demanded of me for a good broadcast. A team with experience and immense talent already existed as I joined. The proleague english "team" is completely new and no one is there to lighten the burden.
The analysis is spot on but I think we have to look at the most important part of this issue which is the revenue. I don't have any of KeSPA's data so I can't say this with certainty but I suspect they found it to be more cost-effective to have two unknown casters as opposed to a single A-list caster like DoA. According to Sundance on the last SoTG where he was asked a question regarding casters and their profitability, he mentioned that casters like Day9 or Tastosis were too expensive for them to be worthwhile casters. I'm guessing KeSPA has a similar but more extreme view regarding this issue which is why they picked up these two guys as opposed to signing DoA. I'm curious if anyone actually has any hard viewership numbers between the time when we had Bitter and TB casting and the two new guys come on. If viewership has dropped enough, we might see a shake-up in casting potentially.
Doa burned the bridge to work for Kespa when he posted a very critical topic about OGN losing english cast rights of PL. You just dont publicly criticize a possible future boss.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
Criticizing KesPA for bad decision making doesn't mean they are gang up on the newcomers = = Or are you going to say that Proleague is not a premier tournament?
Newcomers can improve but does that mean Proleague should be the place for practicing their casting? I don't really agree with that, especially when people think it is the most prestigious team league in Korea or even in the world. Caster is a very important role in the English (or any language) broadcast. Also, it make a bad first impression if you start with casters that are not very good too. People tend to remember something like "a league with bad casters" and don't change their opinions because they don't bother to look at it again even there is an improvement later.
To be honest, SNM and Whiplash are not that bad (especially Whiplash). But they are still not good enough to be the face of Proleague, if KesPA wants people to view Proleague as a premier tournament. I totally believe that they can improve a lot after they have more experience in casting, and I will continue to try to support them by leaving criticism in the LR thread. However, many people have already had bad first impression with them, and to a certain extent with the English broadcast of Proleague. That's not a fault of casters but more on KesPA and their decision.
And last point, I don't really think they criticize the casters, they more criticize the decision making of KesPA.
We cannot rule out the possibility that both Husky and Incontrol were approached by Kespa (we know some casters said they were approached) to cast PL and didn't accept their terms. Now they criticize Kespa decision - its seems kind of low.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
I can't agree more. I am sorry but SNM is just plain sorry. Whiplash is sorry as well but at least he is not half as annoying as SNM. I can careless about how and why KeSPA agreed on bring in possibly the worst casting DUO to represent their league but they really should care about us fans and those that watches the league faithfully with paid subscriptions.
Starcraft 2 is at a point where the most passionate and hardworking casters in the past can't/won't work all the time because they are getting more lazy or finding it not worth their time to cast these high level korean matches.
That's frankly the problem we have. This community always ran on donations and charity.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
But the proleague casters truly are terrible, how exacly are they undermining them.
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
But the proleague casters truly are terrible, how exacly are they undermining them.
They are casting there for around 2 weeks, have no control over the camera and are compared to casters who built up their fanbase for more than 2 years. I say give them time and the fact that one of them is korean and can translate makes them better than most other caster pairs for me. Why so many other caster are suddenly appearing is curious to me too there is no monopoly on what is good casting and what not and I actually partly enjoy the Proleague casting. I think in maybe 2 months they can be as accepted as other currently bigger casters.
Players should be the stars not the casters! And that's always been the case with Kespa and still is. The money that current primadonas would get to commentate PL... I'd rather see that same money go to players instead. Unfortunate that in most foreign tournament the pricepool for players is same as paycheck of selected few casters.
Not a popular view on this forum, nevertheless that's my 2c.
On December 26 2012 22:17 Shinobi1982 wrote: Players should be the stars not the casters! And that's always been the case with Kespa and still is. The money that current primadonas would get to commentate PL... I'd rather see that same money go to players instead. Unfortunate that in most foreign tournament the pricepool for players is same as paycheck of selected few casters.
Not a popular view on this forum, nevertheless that's my 2c.
Casters are the stars because it's easier for people to relate to them than to players. You see casters and hear casters a whole lot more than you can from any player. More so when casters are commentating a bunch of koreans.
It's not my own opinion, but I think that's the core of the reason
On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote: so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that.
How much worse would they have to be before you think we should suggest getting someone else to cast proleague? They have no sense of humour, one of the casters has problems pronouncing words and sometimes stutters. He also had an annoying voice. These things can't be fixed. Their game knowledge and confidence while casting is also lacking. Starting off the cast saying the terran player is protoss or that the blue player is yellow is a basic mistake and yet they keep doing it. Then they bicker about if they really said yellow instead of blue for the following minute of the game. Finally the shouting during the match and when GG is called is unanimously hated by the community.
Sure they'll improve over time but when the bar is set so low it is going to take months for them to get to a tolerable level for me to listen to. These two have landed their dream job of casting to thousands of people each night but they are doing a terrible job. I feel sorry to be crushing their dreams but I truly think they shouldn't be casting currently.
don't care about what happens to snm and whiplash, and I don't care whether what inc and others in this thread are saying is right or wrong.
i just think it's low of other casters to publicly undermine others after a long history of never calling each other out
But the proleague casters truly are terrible, how exacly are they undermining them.
They are casting there for around 2 weeks, have no control over the camera and are compared to casters who built up their fanbase for more than 2 years. I say give them time and the fact that one of them is korean and can translate makes them better than most other caster pairs for me. Why so many other caster are suddenly appearing is curious to me too there is no monopoly on what is good casting and what not and I actually partly enjoy the Proleague casting. I think in maybe 2 months they can be as accepted as other currently bigger casters.
No one is arguing about the camera control or the amount of fans they have, it's the fact that they suck ass and have no place in a premier tournament, and it sure as hell isn't meant as a training ground. They could "train" in other places. IPL,SPL, DH, MLG and so forth is the worse place for this kind of activities.
How some people even uses this as a defense boggles my mind. Can't you even comprehend how misplaced they are? Everything is topnotch, great production, some of the best and most dedicates players of all time and then they throw in a bunch of terrible commentators were as one even has problem with pronunciation.
EPT
