• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:10
CEST 11:10
KST 18:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b0IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"7ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!36Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b 3kb/s downloading patch..... are we back to 1998? Terran or Protoss Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament Star Con San Diego 2026 Escore Tournament - Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread 2026-27 Football Thread placeholder TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Games, Hormones, and "Dark" …
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4857 users

EG & TL to Produce English Proleague Broadcasts - Page 53

Forum Index > Closed
1050 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 51 52 53
nitzwerk
Profile Joined June 2012
Germany58 Posts
December 27 2012 14:27 GMT
#1041
On December 27 2012 22:35 samscraft wrote:
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.

I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.


Sorry but blaming Kespa for not leaving their warm and comfortable home so called broodwar, doesn't help at all tbh.
As TB mentioned in one of his blogs a few months back SC2 is still not that popular in Korea and players still suffer from low wages, bad training conditions etc. There was simply no reason to put their business concept which evolved around broodwar on the line.

The task now should be to support them wherever we can, because Proleague and whatever else comes after that has to work and must not "fall flat on it's arse". Even tho they were hibernating in their cave way too long.
I mean just look on the players, teams and more importantly the sponsors under their banner. We, the little fanboys and ambassdors of eSport, must not risk to lose them.

I don't want to see multiple organizations who have their own tournaments, leagues and championships. This reminds me of the current situation in boxing. Each organization (WBO, WBA, IBF...whatever) each crown their champions, which is just silly.

cheers
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 14:53:56
December 27 2012 14:53 GMT
#1042
Really not sure what the point of arguing for established casters is when circumstance makes it impossible. On-site casters are preferable to remote and you can't expect kespa to opt for remote casters long-term. That's not how a broadcast is run. Esports is big and all but the circumstance of this league being on the other side of the world in a foreign culture kinda makes it tough for your favorite caster to be the one casting lol.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 17:21:45
December 27 2012 17:18 GMT
#1043
On December 27 2012 23:27 nitzwerk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 22:35 samscraft wrote:
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.

I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.


Sorry but blaming Kespa for not leaving their warm and comfortable home so called broodwar, doesn't help at all tbh.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that people would be volunteering help for them. There wasn't any point when this forum became a place for brainstorming on behalf of SC2 eSports businesses. PL can pay for what they need or die trying. I was just pointing out that PL chose this path. And even though they're finding themselves in a sort of difficult situation for English broadcasting, they didn't get screwed in any way. In fact, they should be thankful for this opportunity. The rest of the world rose up all around them while they contributed nothing to SC2. They've never had such a good opportunity to profit from non-Korean fans of StarCraft. We've cultivated an audience that they can come in and steal if they are good enough. In this way, we've gone back-and-forth, because if it wasn't for KeSPA making SC:BW such a legendary eSports title in Korea, the rest of the world wouldn't have had such an easy time making SC2 a successful eSports title.

I really think all of this is going to matter very little in the long run. KeSPA is going to be carried by its players as long as it can survive long enough for all their hard work to start paying off. I don't think KeSPA is missing any huge opportunity now in the twilight of Wings. They've got some time to hone their craft and I'm sure they will eventually show everyone how awesome Proleague can be.

P.S. When you consider that KeSPA has meanwhile lost a ton of its Korean SC fans (mostly to League of Legends afaik), the cultivation of fans in the rest of the world is all the more valuable. To see such disorganization from them when presenting themselves to non-Korean fans does seem all the more insulting and disappointing.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
samscraft
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom65 Posts
December 27 2012 17:46 GMT
#1044
On December 28 2012 02:18 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 23:27 nitzwerk wrote:
On December 27 2012 22:35 samscraft wrote:
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.

I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.


Sorry but blaming Kespa for not leaving their warm and comfortable home so called broodwar, doesn't help at all tbh.


I really think all of this is going to matter very little in the long run. KeSPA is going to be carried by its players as long as it can survive long enough for all their hard work to start paying off. I don't think KeSPA is missing any huge opportunity now in the twilight of Wings. They've got some time to hone their craft and I'm sure they will eventually show everyone how awesome Proleague can be.



That paragraph there about sums it up, kespa has some very big names, who are well supported / respected (how-ever you wish to view it), It is sad news so many are moving to LoL but I believe with a bit of work they can make it, support grows week in, week out for PL, as it always hits stable viewers during both live streaming and re-broadcast streams.

It will be good to see how they change / become part of the world wide community over the next few months due to HOTS coming out, and will also be great to watch the kespa players grow into beasty SC2 players (allthough i think the majority of them are all-ready at such a high level).
Aint life great
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 19:06:12
December 27 2012 19:02 GMT
#1045
On December 28 2012 02:18 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 23:27 nitzwerk wrote:
On December 27 2012 22:35 samscraft wrote:
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.

I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.


Sorry but blaming Kespa for not leaving their warm and comfortable home so called broodwar, doesn't help at all tbh.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that people would be volunteering help for them. There wasn't any point when this forum became a place for brainstorming on behalf of SC2 eSports businesses. PL can pay for what they need or die trying. I was just pointing out that PL chose this path. And even though they're finding themselves in a sort of difficult situation for English broadcasting, they didn't get screwed in any way. In fact, they should be thankful for this opportunity. The rest of the world rose up all around them while they contributed nothing to SC2. They've never had such a good opportunity to profit from non-Korean fans of StarCraft. We've cultivated an audience that they can come in and steal if they are good enough. In this way, we've gone back-and-forth, because if it wasn't for KeSPA making SC:BW such a legendary eSports title in Korea, the rest of the world wouldn't have had such an easy time making SC2 a successful eSports title.

I really think all of this is going to matter very little in the long run. KeSPA is going to be carried by its players as long as it can survive long enough for all their hard work to start paying off. I don't think KeSPA is missing any huge opportunity now in the twilight of Wings. They've got some time to hone their craft and I'm sure they will eventually show everyone how awesome Proleague can be.

P.S. When you consider that KeSPA has meanwhile lost a ton of its Korean SC fans (mostly to League of Legends afaik), the cultivation of fans in the rest of the world is all the more valuable. To see such disorganization from them when presenting themselves to non-Korean fans does seem all the more insulting and disappointing.

I don't always agree with Tyler, but here he is right on point. This entire debacle raises large questions as to the business savvy or motivation of KESPA. Either they do not understand how to cater to and listen to a foreign audience, something they simply must do if gaming popularity trends continue as they are in Korea, or they do not care and are willing to hire unproven casters, give them shit casting tools, and put out a sub-par stream out of sheer laziness. Either option seems quite troubling, but hopefully there is indeed enough time for something positive and cohesive to come out of KESPA. Though to be fair, the PL matches, even when streamed in a sub-par fashion, have been positive.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
December 27 2012 19:35 GMT
#1046
On December 28 2012 04:02 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2012 02:18 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 27 2012 23:27 nitzwerk wrote:
On December 27 2012 22:35 samscraft wrote:
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.

I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.


Sorry but blaming Kespa for not leaving their warm and comfortable home so called broodwar, doesn't help at all tbh.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that people would be volunteering help for them. There wasn't any point when this forum became a place for brainstorming on behalf of SC2 eSports businesses. PL can pay for what they need or die trying. I was just pointing out that PL chose this path. And even though they're finding themselves in a sort of difficult situation for English broadcasting, they didn't get screwed in any way. In fact, they should be thankful for this opportunity. The rest of the world rose up all around them while they contributed nothing to SC2. They've never had such a good opportunity to profit from non-Korean fans of StarCraft. We've cultivated an audience that they can come in and steal if they are good enough. In this way, we've gone back-and-forth, because if it wasn't for KeSPA making SC:BW such a legendary eSports title in Korea, the rest of the world wouldn't have had such an easy time making SC2 a successful eSports title.

I really think all of this is going to matter very little in the long run. KeSPA is going to be carried by its players as long as it can survive long enough for all their hard work to start paying off. I don't think KeSPA is missing any huge opportunity now in the twilight of Wings. They've got some time to hone their craft and I'm sure they will eventually show everyone how awesome Proleague can be.

P.S. When you consider that KeSPA has meanwhile lost a ton of its Korean SC fans (mostly to League of Legends afaik), the cultivation of fans in the rest of the world is all the more valuable. To see such disorganization from them when presenting themselves to non-Korean fans does seem all the more insulting and disappointing.

I don't always agree with Tyler, but here he is right on point. This entire debacle raises large questions as to the business savvy or motivation of KESPA. Either they do not understand how to cater to and listen to a foreign audience, something they simply must do if gaming popularity trends continue as they are in Korea, or they do not care and are willing to hire unproven casters, give them shit casting tools, and put out a sub-par stream out of sheer laziness. Either option seems quite troubling, but hopefully there is indeed enough time for something positive and cohesive to come out of KESPA. Though to be fair, the PL matches, even when streamed in a sub-par fashion, have been positive.



I wouldn't assume that you know better than Kespa what is in their business interest. It's quite possible that 1) the unproven casters were their only choice because established casters turned down offers to move to Korea and they need on-site casters, 2) the foreign viewership is a small fraction of the Korean viewership, and 3) paying for established casters wouldn't yield a worthwhile increase on viewers anyway. You know next to nothing about those 3 points, and those are critical questions to answer before claiming that Kespa is making a bad business decision.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 19:44:34
December 27 2012 19:42 GMT
#1047
On December 28 2012 04:35 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2012 04:02 farvacola wrote:
On December 28 2012 02:18 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 27 2012 23:27 nitzwerk wrote:
On December 27 2012 22:35 samscraft wrote:
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.

I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.


Sorry but blaming Kespa for not leaving their warm and comfortable home so called broodwar, doesn't help at all tbh.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that people would be volunteering help for them. There wasn't any point when this forum became a place for brainstorming on behalf of SC2 eSports businesses. PL can pay for what they need or die trying. I was just pointing out that PL chose this path. And even though they're finding themselves in a sort of difficult situation for English broadcasting, they didn't get screwed in any way. In fact, they should be thankful for this opportunity. The rest of the world rose up all around them while they contributed nothing to SC2. They've never had such a good opportunity to profit from non-Korean fans of StarCraft. We've cultivated an audience that they can come in and steal if they are good enough. In this way, we've gone back-and-forth, because if it wasn't for KeSPA making SC:BW such a legendary eSports title in Korea, the rest of the world wouldn't have had such an easy time making SC2 a successful eSports title.

I really think all of this is going to matter very little in the long run. KeSPA is going to be carried by its players as long as it can survive long enough for all their hard work to start paying off. I don't think KeSPA is missing any huge opportunity now in the twilight of Wings. They've got some time to hone their craft and I'm sure they will eventually show everyone how awesome Proleague can be.

P.S. When you consider that KeSPA has meanwhile lost a ton of its Korean SC fans (mostly to League of Legends afaik), the cultivation of fans in the rest of the world is all the more valuable. To see such disorganization from them when presenting themselves to non-Korean fans does seem all the more insulting and disappointing.

I don't always agree with Tyler, but here he is right on point. This entire debacle raises large questions as to the business savvy or motivation of KESPA. Either they do not understand how to cater to and listen to a foreign audience, something they simply must do if gaming popularity trends continue as they are in Korea, or they do not care and are willing to hire unproven casters, give them shit casting tools, and put out a sub-par stream out of sheer laziness. Either option seems quite troubling, but hopefully there is indeed enough time for something positive and cohesive to come out of KESPA. Though to be fair, the PL matches, even when streamed in a sub-par fashion, have been positive.



I wouldn't assume that you know better than Kespa what is in their business interest. It's quite possible that 1) the unproven casters were their only choice because established casters turned down offers to move to Korea and they need on-site casters, 2) the foreign viewership is a small fraction of the Korean viewership, and 3) paying for established casters wouldn't yield a worthwhile increase on viewers anyway. You know next to nothing about those 3 points, and those are critical questions to answer before claiming that Kespa is making a bad business decision.

Why do they "need" on-site casters? Especially when on-site English casters aren't given any of the tools that come with that benefit? And you are right, I do not know the precise answers to those questions, instead I am left to go off of what KESPA presents, and as of now that is a pretty shitty product when compared to that of any other major content providers.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
ZerglingTwins
Profile Joined October 2012
United States850 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 19:49:06
December 27 2012 19:48 GMT
#1048
Every thing KeSPA does is bad and evil, this is the mindset of most teamliquiders. If those casters are hired by EG, much less shit will be thrown at them. Some of the "famous" guys on TL are responsible for this problem.

Searching for my twin ling brother.
hansmuff
Profile Joined September 2010
United States23 Posts
December 27 2012 20:34 GMT
#1049
On December 27 2012 13:14 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:
Im loving this whole thing, but what is up with the god awful buffering on Twitch tv? It's seriously almost unwatchable

I've hit this a number of times as well, it's bad. You have to basically refresh the page the moment you see any stutter on the VOD. It sometimes takes 3-5 tries, but eventually I get a stream that does not stop&buffer.
""
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10156 Posts
December 27 2012 21:25 GMT
#1050
Adebisi hiting the nail

http://www.twitch.tv/chanmanv
TheMango
Profile Joined April 2007
United States1967 Posts
December 27 2012 21:25 GMT
#1051
closing this thread as it's gone off topic now.
Moderator
Prev 1 51 52 53
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 61
Trikslyr25
BRAT_OK 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 901
Free 825
BeSt 384
Tasteless 340
Mong 255
Larva 247
Jaedong 135
Killer 113
Hm[arnc] 66
ToSsGirL 57
[ Show more ]
Sharp 46
NaDa 35
JulyZerg 24
sSak 24
yabsab 15
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
League of Legends
JimRising 546
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1009
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King132
Other Games
summit1g6876
singsing953
ceh9725
WinterStarcraft620
Happy298
Pyrionflax124
Sick121
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick569
BasetradeTV46
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 12
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH312
• StrangeGG 47
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1644
• Stunt671
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
50m
INu's Battles
1h 50m
Cure vs herO
ByuN vs Rogue
PiGosaur Cup
14h 50m
The PondCast
1d
Kung Fu Cup
1d 1h
Patches Events
1d 6h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
CrankTV Team League
2 days
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Escore
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Acropolis #5 - TRS
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.