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On December 27 2012 08:35 Angel_ wrote:
I disagree about viewer numbers, as it's been stated by a few people now that viewership numbers aren't swung too terribly much by casters at the moment.
This is certainly the case for me. It doesn't matter who casts pro league I'll still watch it. I just end up muting it if TotalBiscuit is casting since I just find his casting irritating.
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We can't do much worse than the current casters (apart from that idiot Monte "I mine with 2 drones from my gas when I want fast zergling speed" Cristo), but the whole thing feels really amateur right now, with no ingame obs or the advantages that GOM gives to Tastosis and Wolf & Khaldor. At least they got rid of TotalBiscuit, can't stand his casting STYLE OF GETTING SLIGHTLY LOUDER AS I DESCRIBE SOMETHING HAPPENING WHILE HAVING NO REAL GAME KNOWLEDGE ABOVE BASIC COUNTERS TO UNITS AND THAT CONCAVES ARE A GOOD IDEA. He doesn't give all his time to Starcraft because he needs to make money off his legions of YouTube drones, so he's never going to be good enough to cast SC2 at the highest levels. Unfortunately for those of us used to high-quality casting in both Korean and English, his fans don't recognise that and defend him anyway.
Ideally they'd pick up someone unaffiliated with GOM like Apollo, or... er... well, that's the problem really, there just aren't enough great (not merely good) English-language casters who are willing to stay in Korea for the whole season and who aren't already working with GOM.
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On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
So would pointing to the early efforts of other now well liked casters be a better counter argument? Because having watched a lot of casts early into the careers of most of the beloved casters, snm and whiplash look at least as good as mst if not all of their early work. People talk about how they want bad they think snm and whiplash are, but have they listened to early husky or total biscut or mr bitter? Those guys have improved huge amounts since they started casting, and it only seems fair to allow snm/whiplash to do the same. The very best caster in the scene ie Tay 9 Tasteless and artosis, have been casting to some extent since before star craft 2 came out. Is it so unreasonable to wait at least a couple of months before deciding that the casters are terrible and need to be fired?
On December 27 2012 08:43 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
We can't do much worse than the current casters (apart from that idiot Monte "I mine with 2 drones from my gas when I want fast zergling speed" Cristo), but the whole thing feels really amateur right now, with no ingame obs or the advantages that GOM gives to Tastosis and Wolf & Khaldor. At least they got rid of TotalBiscuit, can't stand his casting STYLE OF GETTING SLIGHTLY LOUDER AS I DESCRIBE SOMETHING HAPPENING WHILE HAVING NO REAL GAME KNOWLEDGE ABOVE BASIC COUNTERS TO UNITS AND THAT CONCAVES ARE A GOOD IDEA. He doesn't give all his time to Starcraft because he needs to make money of his legions of YouTube drones, so he's never going to be good enough to cast SC2 at the highest levels. Unfortunately for those of us used to high-quality casting in both Korean and English, his fans don't recognise that and defend him anyway.
Ideally they'd pick up someone unaffiliated with GOM like Apollo, or... er... well, that's the problem really, there just aren't enough great (not merely good) English-language casters who are willing to stay in Korea for the whole season and who aren't already working with GOM.
Just going to correct a couple of the things wrong with this post.
1 every single caster at times points out basic unit counters, and just every caster i have heard has pointed out repeatedly when someone has a really amazing concave. If your problem with as caster is talking about counters and concaves, then you must hate every caster in the pro scene.
2 The problem with singing a big name caster, is that they would want a caster living in Korea and focusing solely on pl. Name me one big name caster who would uproot everything to live in korea for 8 months and cast only on event, there by cutting into their income a lot. They made offers to bigger names, and were turned down, that is not something you can blame the casters or ieg/ kespa for. They got casters who were willing to uproot themselves to move to a foreign country for most of a year, and stay there full time, while casting only one event.
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At least I do not fall asleep listening to TB. Viewers and subscribers will fall off because of it. They cant cast they way out of late night stream. Anything else is pretty much besides the point. Since there are no standards and opinions are just worthless preferences.
Thats why TL modding really does not suit me. Because people just spaming their preferences as opinions and hate on the casters that do not fit and this circlejerk will not stop, until the thread is locked. Disneyland is just too expensive today.
User was warned for this post
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On December 27 2012 08:51 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:
At least I do not fall asleep listening to TB. Viewers and subscribers will fall off because of it. They cant cast they way out of late night stream. Anything else is pretty much besides the point. Since there are no standards and opinions are just worthless preferences.
Thats why TL modding really does not suit me. Because people just spaming their preferences as opinions and hate on the casters that do not fit and this circlejerk will not stop, until the thread is locked. Disneyland is just too expensive today.
I love the "Circlejerk" defence, because it implies that all these disparate people with the same opinion don't really not like something, they're just doing it to be cool like everyone else. You stick it to the man, buddy. You show all those people how wrong their opinions are because they're held by a bunch of other people.
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On December 27 2012 08:47 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 08:43 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
We can't do much worse than the current casters (apart from that idiot Monte "I mine with 2 drones from my gas when I want fast zergling speed" Cristo), but the whole thing feels really amateur right now, with no ingame obs or the advantages that GOM gives to Tastosis and Wolf & Khaldor. At least they got rid of TotalBiscuit, can't stand his casting STYLE OF GETTING SLIGHTLY LOUDER AS I DESCRIBE SOMETHING HAPPENING WHILE HAVING NO REAL GAME KNOWLEDGE ABOVE BASIC COUNTERS TO UNITS AND THAT CONCAVES ARE A GOOD IDEA. He doesn't give all his time to Starcraft because he needs to make money of his legions of YouTube drones, so he's never going to be good enough to cast SC2 at the highest levels. Unfortunately for those of us used to high-quality casting in both Korean and English, his fans don't recognise that and defend him anyway.
Ideally they'd pick up someone unaffiliated with GOM like Apollo, or... er... well, that's the problem really, there just aren't enough great (not merely good) English-language casters who are willing to stay in Korea for the whole season and who aren't already working with GOM. Just going to correct a couple of the things wrong with this post. 1 every single caster at times points out basic unit counters, and just every caster i have heard has pointed out repeatedly when someone has a really amazing concave. If your problem with as caster is talking about counters and concaves, then you must hate every caster in the pro scene. 2 The problem with singing a big name caster, is that they would want a caster living in Korea and focusing solely on pl. Name me one big name caster who would uproot everything to live in korea for 8 months and cast only on event, there by cutting into their income a lot. They made offers to bigger names, and were turned down, that is not something you can blame the casters or ieg/ kespa for. They got casters who were willing to uproot themselves to move to a foreign country for most of a year, and stay there full time, while casting only one event.
1. I have no issues with people pointing these things out; the issue is that that is the entirety of TB's SC2 knowledge. He does not have high-level build, map or player knowledge that should be expected of a caster for arguably the biggest SC2 league in the world. Please don't misrep my argument like that.
2. KeSPA has plenty of money to sign a high-level caster, but evidently didn't offer enough and settled for sub-par casters for the English stream instead and didn't provide an observer spot or translators for interviews as GOM does at some Code S games. If they had offered enough money, they could have signed a top caster as everyone has their price. The obvious answer is that KeSPA didn't want to spend the money on an English observer and caster of high quality - which makes the whole thing feel incredibly amateur.
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On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
There's a difference between caster criticism and "I could do better than these guys, hell anyone who has chatted about Starcraft with his friends can do better". Those of course are silly exaggerations and tbh I wish they were moderated in this thread.
Personally I like the casters even though I recognize that they are not as well developed as the established casters in the community. It just seems fresh, to match the freshness of Proleague itself, its maps etc. IMO it's preferable to have these casters on-site than it is to have established casters casting remotely. And I doubt any of the established casters are ready to move to Korea. Of course everyone's caster preference is extremely subjective...and my personal preference has at least something to do with the caster's voice, and I like these casters' voices. Overall I actually prefer these guys over Wolf and Khaldor. Yes that's my own subjective preference and no your preference is not more valid.
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On December 27 2012 08:53 oGsTrueSmug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 08:51 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:
At least I do not fall asleep listening to TB. Viewers and subscribers will fall off because of it. They cant cast they way out of late night stream. Anything else is pretty much besides the point. Since there are no standards and opinions are just worthless preferences.
Thats why TL modding really does not suit me. Because people just spaming their preferences as opinions and hate on the casters that do not fit and this circlejerk will not stop, until the thread is locked. Disneyland is just too expensive today. I love the "Circlejerk" defence, because it implies that all these disparate people with the same opinion don't really not like something, they're just doing it to be cool like everyone else. You stick it to the man, buddy. You show all those people how wrong their opinions are because they're held by a bunch of other people.
You clearly missed the point. Stick it to the man yourself. Preferences are not opinions and you try to switch them in my argument. Just another worthless troll.
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On December 27 2012 08:43 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
We can't do much worse than the current casters (apart from that idiot Monte "I mine with 2 drones from my gas when I want fast zergling speed" Cristo), but the whole thing feels really amateur right now, with no ingame obs or the advantages that GOM gives to Tastosis and Wolf & Khaldor. At least they got rid of TotalBiscuit, can't stand his casting STYLE OF GETTING SLIGHTLY LOUDER AS I DESCRIBE SOMETHING HAPPENING WHILE HAVING NO REAL GAME KNOWLEDGE ABOVE BASIC COUNTERS TO UNITS AND THAT CONCAVES ARE A GOOD IDEA. He doesn't give all his time to Starcraft because he needs to make money off his legions of YouTube drones, so he's never going to be good enough to cast SC2 at the highest levels. Unfortunately for those of us used to high-quality casting in both Korean and English, his fans don't recognise that and defend him anyway.
Ideally they'd pick up someone unaffiliated with GOM like Apollo, or... er... well, that's the problem really, there just aren't enough great (not merely good) English-language casters who are willing to stay in Korea for the whole season and who aren't already working with GOM.
This is a such a worthless and nonconstructive post, made all the more so by the irrelevant TB bashing lol. Tell me, what was your last account banned for?
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The current casters do they even play SC2? I know SNM was a BW commentator
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On December 27 2012 09:21 Pucca wrote:
The current casters do they even play SC2? I know SNM was a BW commentator
Snm is masters level and whip lash has hit high masters with all three races iirc.
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On December 27 2012 09:10 oGsTrueSmug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 08:47 Jaaaaasper wrote:On December 27 2012 08:43 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
We can't do much worse than the current casters (apart from that idiot Monte "I mine with 2 drones from my gas when I want fast zergling speed" Cristo), but the whole thing feels really amateur right now, with no ingame obs or the advantages that GOM gives to Tastosis and Wolf & Khaldor. At least they got rid of TotalBiscuit, can't stand his casting STYLE OF GETTING SLIGHTLY LOUDER AS I DESCRIBE SOMETHING HAPPENING WHILE HAVING NO REAL GAME KNOWLEDGE ABOVE BASIC COUNTERS TO UNITS AND THAT CONCAVES ARE A GOOD IDEA. He doesn't give all his time to Starcraft because he needs to make money of his legions of YouTube drones, so he's never going to be good enough to cast SC2 at the highest levels. Unfortunately for those of us used to high-quality casting in both Korean and English, his fans don't recognise that and defend him anyway.
Ideally they'd pick up someone unaffiliated with GOM like Apollo, or... er... well, that's the problem really, there just aren't enough great (not merely good) English-language casters who are willing to stay in Korea for the whole season and who aren't already working with GOM. Just going to correct a couple of the things wrong with this post. 1 every single caster at times points out basic unit counters, and just every caster i have heard has pointed out repeatedly when someone has a really amazing concave. If your problem with as caster is talking about counters and concaves, then you must hate every caster in the pro scene. 2 The problem with singing a big name caster, is that they would want a caster living in Korea and focusing solely on pl. Name me one big name caster who would uproot everything to live in korea for 8 months and cast only on event, there by cutting into their income a lot. They made offers to bigger names, and were turned down, that is not something you can blame the casters or ieg/ kespa for. They got casters who were willing to uproot themselves to move to a foreign country for most of a year, and stay there full time, while casting only one event. 1. I have no issues with people pointing these things out; the issue is that that is the entirety of TB's SC2 knowledge. He does not have high-level build, map or player knowledge that should be expected of a caster for arguably the biggest SC2 league in the world. Please don't misrep my argument like that. 2. KeSPA has plenty of money to sign a high-level caster, but evidently didn't offer enough and settled for sub-par casters for the English stream instead and didn't provide an observer spot or translators for interviews as GOM does at some Code S games. If they had offered enough money, they could have signed a top caster as everyone has their price. The obvious answer is that KeSPA didn't want to spend the money on an English observer and caster of high quality - which makes the whole thing feel incredibly amateur.
Explain to us how a high-dollar offer to a big-name caster is worthwhile and "professional" for KeSPA from a business standpoint, considering that 1) it's unlikely a big-name caster would increase viewership, considering the primary draw of their league for viewers could be its sheer novelty, and 2) Proleague's foreign viewership is probably only a fraction of their Korean viewership.
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For five bucks... I don't really care.
Of course they can grow, everyone can. I'm gonna make the assumption that many of you pay the $5 to be able to watch the vods because the livestream is late at night and you'd rather be sleeping than observing a fast-paced RTS which turns into a blur of colour for the tired. If the casters are casting from Europe/NA for less pay than they would get from a local tournament, well... You can imagine your own response if you got a job offer described as "Wanna work bad hours for less money?".
Remember, give constructive criticism. If we all could properly give and take criticism, we would probably have world peace.
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I think people here need to remember that it is really hard to cast and figure out what is going on when all these casters have to go on is the stream... no observing, pulling stuff up for themselves, etc. In fact I think the vast majority of what is wrong with proleague casting is that; The casters are ok I think (not great, but ok), but with no crouwd sound and no separate obs, it is really hard to understand OR build excitement)
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On December 27 2012 07:45 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it. It is dumb, but there are times when the reason for taking the argument that way is at least in the right spirit. A lot of criticism comes from people who don't understand what the job they're criticizing requires or entails. It's still stupid to say "well let's see you do it" instead of explaining what the problem with the argument is, though.
I really disagree with this, it isn't something that we can do away with all together, but it is better to explain why you like something rather than to disprove an argument based on the inability of another to do it better. The one issue I find with casters in the SCII community is that they are all incredibly good compared to other scenes I've follow and still follow, but, except for the top tier of casters, casters seem to fall into doing the same thing over and over again instead of saying refreshing things. I find analytical casters like Apollo and Artosis to show how not to do that as they give new info and see the point of actions clearly, but some casters have issue with saying general things repeatedly and not giving the more nuanced details of the game. I think the Proleague guys are doing a great job of it right now despite some kinks here and there.
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On December 27 2012 09:28 Winterfell wrote:
I think people here need to remember that it is really hard to cast and figure out what is going on when all these casters have to go on is the stream... no observing, pulling stuff up for themselves, etc. In fact I think the vast majority of what is wrong with proleague casting is that; The casters are ok I think (not great, but ok), but with no crouwd sound and no separate obs, it is really hard to understand OR build excitement)
Yea the lack of crowd sound as well as the distance the casters are from the screen is an issue. SNM mentioned several times in the last EG-TL match that it can be difficult for them to see the screen. The casting team is not all doom and gloom, but they should be able to use better diction and prepare more things to talk about. As for not having there own stream, plenty of BW youtube casters got by just fine with VODs. If anything, the glut of information on-screen can distract as much as inform.
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On December 26 2012 23:55 Dr.Sin wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind EG.Azael casting since he went back to Canada at the end of the EGMC (I felt he deserved to cast the finals as he had put so much work into it). He had made a twitter post that something regarding negotiating his contract. I don't know what he has in mind in terms of professional gaming and how that might influence this possibility though.
Yes, with Azael being (having been??) on EG and everything, and possibly free at the moment, GET HIM OVER THERE!! One of the best casters at the moment.
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On December 27 2012 10:18 AlgeriaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 23:55 Dr.Sin wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind EG.Azael casting since he went back to Canada at the end of the EGMC (I felt he deserved to cast the finals as he had put so much work into it). He had made a twitter post that something regarding negotiating his contract. I don't know what he has in mind in terms of professional gaming and how that might influence this possibility though. Yes, with Azael being (having been??) on EG and everything, and possibly free at the moment, GET HIM OVER THERE!! One of the best casters at the moment.
Azael is the completely monotone. He doesn't have any chemistry with anyone at all.
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I don't really care that much tbh, casting isn't everything. It seems like some people value it more than the actual games. However, these two certainly take away from the experience at least a little bit. One of them has a really annoying voice and doesn't speak very fluently, can't see how this will ever change. Game knowledge is quite low, excitement is really forced, very monotone for the most part. The GeeGee at the end is just abysmal.
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On December 27 2012 10:25 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 10:18 AlgeriaT wrote:On December 26 2012 23:55 Dr.Sin wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind EG.Azael casting since he went back to Canada at the end of the EGMC (I felt he deserved to cast the finals as he had put so much work into it). He had made a twitter post that something regarding negotiating his contract. I don't know what he has in mind in terms of professional gaming and how that might influence this possibility though. Yes, with Azael being (having been??) on EG and everything, and possibly free at the moment, GET HIM OVER THERE!! One of the best casters at the moment. Azael is the completely monotone. He doesn't have any chemistry with anyone at all.
On the contrary, I thought he had very good chemistry with Incontrol. One of the funnier casting duos around, while not repeating themselves too much and getting their knickers in a twist over insignificant things/trying to hard. Azael does have a pretty monotonous tone of voice, but during the MCSL casts I found him to be using that to his strength. Kind of a straight man to Inc's more outgoing (eccentric  ) style.
Actually Inc + Azael casting Proleague would be fucking excellent.
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EPT
