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It's true that, in a sense, anyone has talked about a SC2 game with a friend can 'cast' so I can understand the people saying give them a chance and they'll improve etc. However I do feel also that feel that some people are just naturally better at it than others. It's not just about being spot-on with analysis either it's about having a certain style that's just interesting to listen to. If Apollo and Artoisis were just drones who were good at analysis and talked about build orders in a robot voice they wouldn't be half as popular, it's their wit and quirky personalities that people enjoy. And of course this part is so subjective- what one person finds charming another will not (although Artosis seems almost universally popular). It's also true I think that some casters who (I think) are fairly mediocre, if they gain a certain status become protected from criticism. For example, Wolf seems a very nice guy and knows his stuff but I personally find his casts dry, bland and lacking in personality, I never posted about it because well there's no point in criticizing when I know other people are happy enough with his casts and he has established himself already.
Anyway I think that a certain order had developed where casters would work their way up from smaller tournaments like Playhem and gradually build up experience and some popularity. I don't think that it was a fixed club that was impossible to break into like some make out (Frodan and Jorosaur are examples of casters who moved up) rather it requires some work to match the standards that have been attained. Some wouldn't make it but that's to be expected. All of us have casters we prefer over others but I think at least we can say these days that those who are casting big tournaments are pretty experienced and professional, even those who are not our favorites.
Kespa though decided to throw these standards that had developed away I feel. Throwing inexperienced casters into a big league like this just does not seem to be doing a favor to either the audience or the casters themselves. No offense to the guys but it is a bit painful listening to them fumble around and trying to learn on the job. Yes we went through this in the early days of Gom but at this stage of SC2's development many of us expected a bit more. This is not to blame the caters at all, they're just trying to do their best, I think Kespa has to realize that in this era of tournament oversaturation you can't take an audience for granted just because you have Flash and Jaedong playing in your league however and needs to at least give the English casters ability to observe the games independently.
Sorry for the ramblings.
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Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best.
I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone.
Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys.
Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost.
Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague 
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On December 27 2012 07:16 Panthae wrote:
Is KeSPA even aware of this debate of ours? Are we that unimportant in their eyes? Wish someone official would address this with either a: ''We will try and find someone better.'' or a ''We believe in these casters and their rapid growth.'' Don't give a shit, I'm just looking for a reason to not boycott this league. -.-
They don't need to issue you an official response. You ask for way too much transparency when in reality it's none of our business. You don't want to watch? Fine, don't watch. No one is holding a gun to your head. You aren't a hostage.
It's like every other comment I see in the LR threads. Catch this: by the time EG-TL versus T8 was over we had over 2000 comments. When the score was 0-3 several people started to bitch and moan about EG-TL's performance and said they were going to sleep. Sound familiar? "Oh Stephano's out? Okay, won't watch"; "Zerg versus Zerg left? Screw this!"; "No more foreigners? I'm out"; "Mirror match-up? Bye."; and, the list goes on. If I recall correctly and I do tend to follow LR threads a lot three people said they were going to bed right as EG-TL were down 0-3. People decided to leave the building early because they thought their team was out. Just like any other sport. Funny thing is it didn't even drop-off by that much at all from what I recall and one of the guys who said he was going to bed posted right after the full reversal was complete. Guess he decided to hang around after all. After all, TaeJa, JYP and HerO were right on the doorstep.
On December 27 2012 07:29 FXOBoSs wrote:Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best. I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone. Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys. Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost. Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague
Ha Josh. ;o
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On December 27 2012 07:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 06:51 JBright wrote:On December 27 2012 06:28 Za7oX wrote:
On the topic of established casters criticizing new casters. It's not like Incontrol has turned on a playhem daily and then started bashing some kids. This is PL! And if you take a job at the top, you better be ready for the criticism. Bad or good.
The main issue I have with Incontrol, TB, Frodan, etc. calling out the PL cast is that they're doing it publicly on a forum and expect it to be an ok thing to do because they're "fellow casters." If they're just going to post here and not do anything about it, what they said is really no better than some random person bashing SNM/Whiplash. These guys have made it big and have connections who can put them in touch with SNM/Whiplash to help them improve behind the scenes. Wasn't it Frodan who said that the other NASL casters helped him transition in the beginning? The feedback from his peers all happened privately and his mentors all work at the same place as him so they wouldn't blurt it out. The other casters don't have a duty to help the SPL casters improve, but if they have to know that their "feedback" loses value if they're just posting on a forum. I really don’t think it is as big of a deal as people are making it out to be, but people do love drama. I do not see any reason that casters should not publicly criticize other casters out of “professional courtesy”, and I really don’t see any reason for the community to get bent out of shape about it. In this case, SPL chose to hire local casters over the production preformed by TL. Many people feel(including myself) the casting quality is worse and I don’t think the casters should be barred from voicing their complaints out of “professional courtesy” and the community really shouldn't try to impose that. Professional courtesy, by design, is set by professionals in the field, not outside observers.
I don't mind if they criticize each other as long as they keep it consistent. There's been barely any public feedback from casters on each other and then all of a sudden it's proleague and everyone wants his opinion heard. Hey, I would love to hear Frodan mouth off on TB or TB talk like he did here to MLG but they both know that's not in their interest.
On December 27 2012 07:17 Za7oX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 06:51 JBright wrote:On December 27 2012 06:28 Za7oX wrote:
On the topic of established casters criticizing new casters. It's not like Incontrol has turned on a playhem daily and then started bashing some kids. This is PL! And if you take a job at the top, you better be ready for the criticism. Bad or good.
The main issue I have with Incontrol, TB, Frodan, etc. calling out the PL cast is that they're doing it publicly on a forum and expect it to be an ok thing to do because they're "fellow casters." If they're just going to post here and not do anything about it, what they said is really no better than some random person bashing SNM/Whiplash. These guys have made it big and have connections who can put them in touch with SNM/Whiplash to help them improve behind the scenes. Wasn't it Frodan who said that the other NASL casters helped him transition in the beginning? The feedback from his peers all happened privately and his mentors all work at the same place as him so they wouldn't blurt it out. The other casters don't have a duty to help the SPL casters improve, but if they have to know that their "feedback" loses value if they're just posting on a forum. It wasn't like Frodan started at NASL. He worked his way up there, casting/organizing playhem daily's.
That's true. I just wanted to focus on the feedback/improvement process though. I think they had a NASL feedback thread but most of it was done internally.
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On December 27 2012 07:30 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:16 Panthae wrote:
Is KeSPA even aware of this debate of ours? Are we that unimportant in their eyes? Wish someone official would address this with either a: ''We will try and find someone better.'' or a ''We believe in these casters and their rapid growth.'' Don't give a shit, I'm just looking for a reason to not boycott this league. -.- They don't need to issue you an official response. You ask for way too much transparency when in reality it's none of our business. You don't want to watch? Fine, don't watch. No one is holding a gun to your head. You aren't a hostage. It's like every other comment I see in the LR threads. Catch this: by the time EG-TL versus T8 was over we had over 2000 comments. When the score was 0-3 several people started to bitch and moan about EG-TL's performance and said they were going to sleep. Sound familiar? "Oh Stephano's out? Okay, won't watch"; "Zerg versus Zerg left? Screw this!"; "No more foreigners? I'm out"; "Mirror match-up? Bye."; and, the list goes on. If I recall correctly and I do tend to follow LR threads a lot three people said they were going to bed right as EG-TL were down 0-3. People decided to leave the building early because they thought their team was out. Just like any other sport. Funny thing is it didn't even drop-off by that much at all from what I recall and one of the guys who said he was going to bed posted right after the full reversal was complete. Guess he decided to hang around after all. After all, TaeJa, JYP and HerO were right on the doorstep. Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:29 FXOBoSs wrote:Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best. I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone. Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys. Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost. Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague Ha Josh. ;o
My point was more along the lines of we should be tired of KeSPA shitting on the foreigner fans, these issues are hardly mine alone. I think a majority of people aren't thrilled with the current PL caster situation, notable people in the SC2 scene, not just us TL lurkers. I'm not shitting on players or matches or teams or even casters here, I'm saying there is a lack of respect from an organization, KeSPA, for foreign fans. If they look at their tournament as being the best in Korea, which they are, they should at the very LEAST try and give foreign fans a good stream! The caster situation is one thing, they aren't good enough to be at the PL and that's not their fault for taking the gig, but KeSPA's for not giving it to someone better. More importantly though, the fact that they are casting from a stream themselves, without obsing and without being able to pull up Units or Productions Tabs is COMPLETELY stupid. So don't coincide my argument with that of those who just whine for the sake of it, because this issue is so much more than that.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
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On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
It is dumb, but there are times when the reason for taking the argument that way is at least in the right spirit. A lot of criticism comes from people who don't understand what the job they're criticizing requires or entails. It's still stupid to say "well let's see you do it" instead of explaining what the problem with the argument is, though.
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This seems like a great example of the the ages long concept, "it's not what you know, it's who you know". Neither of these guys are good casters - it's not an 'insult', it's just a fact. They're not 'painful to listen to', nor are both of them 'completely clueless' or whatever - but they simply are not good casters. They have very little on-air character, they're not great at analyzing games, and their diction is mediocre at best. They also don't seem to be preparing very well, or maybe they just haven't figured out how to prepare for casts like this yet. It's really quite embarrassing hearing them forget who is playing on the day they're casting, and with the amount of history and backstory every KeSPA team has you'd think they could dig up some old tidbits on each player prior to casting to have something to talk about in between games and during the early boring stages of each match instead of talking about minerals being mined.
Sure, it's entirely possible that they'll develop and improve with time - but this IS the biggest team league in the world right now, and it's very strange having two guys with basically zero 'proper' prior casting experience doing this gig; it also must be extremely frustrating for all the guys out there who had been actually learning the ropes and getting better at casting through small tourneys and replays for literally years to see someone who is obviously a massive newbie to casting get a job like this. The funniest part about all this is that people who say, 'community should give these guys a chance instead of talking about how bad they are', are mostly the people who also toot the 'we should do this and that to make esports more legitimate!!'. But then again, I guess all of us should be used to double standards and selective judgments by now, especially when it comes to older community members and popularity contests.
ps. I have no problem with random people doing the English cast for PL since I watch the Korean stream anyway (which is unfortunately in my opinion also sub-par to the OGN crew, but at least they aren't random amateurs), but it boggles my mind how many people are actually supporting casters like this in what is one of the most, if not 'the most' important events for the SC2 scene. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
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On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
Nothing wrong with good critique as long as you can cut out the bullshit and unfortunately I see a lot of people spewing bullshit. Many successful directors started off as fanatics as well; you have to be well studied in the art (Quentin Tarantino anyone?). Like you said, a food critic would never be asked by a chef to go in the kitchen and prep the meal to their taste. Subjectivity at it's finest. I know several movie reviewers who went into the business because filmmakers weren't making the films they like. Most recent film being Sinister. He wrote the first draft in one weekend sitting. 
Oh yeah, James I wouldn't go off on the numbers at all yet considering what I spoke about in my last three posts.
On December 27 2012 07:41 Panthae wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:30 StarStruck wrote:On December 27 2012 07:16 Panthae wrote:
Is KeSPA even aware of this debate of ours? Are we that unimportant in their eyes? Wish someone official would address this with either a: ''We will try and find someone better.'' or a ''We believe in these casters and their rapid growth.'' Don't give a shit, I'm just looking for a reason to not boycott this league. -.- They don't need to issue you an official response. You ask for way too much transparency when in reality it's none of our business. You don't want to watch? Fine, don't watch. No one is holding a gun to your head. You aren't a hostage. It's like every other comment I see in the LR threads. Catch this: by the time EG-TL versus T8 was over we had over 2000 comments. When the score was 0-3 several people started to bitch and moan about EG-TL's performance and said they were going to sleep. Sound familiar? "Oh Stephano's out? Okay, won't watch"; "Zerg versus Zerg left? Screw this!"; "No more foreigners? I'm out"; "Mirror match-up? Bye."; and, the list goes on. If I recall correctly and I do tend to follow LR threads a lot three people said they were going to bed right as EG-TL were down 0-3. People decided to leave the building early because they thought their team was out. Just like any other sport. Funny thing is it didn't even drop-off by that much at all from what I recall and one of the guys who said he was going to bed posted right after the full reversal was complete. Guess he decided to hang around after all. After all, TaeJa, JYP and HerO were right on the doorstep. On December 27 2012 07:29 FXOBoSs wrote:Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best. I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone. Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys. Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost. Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague Ha Josh. ;o My point was more along the lines of we should be tired of KeSPA shitting on the foreigner fans, these issues are hardly mine alone. I think a majority of people aren't thrilled with the current PL caster situation, notable people in the SC2 scene, not just us TL lurkers. I'm not shitting on players or matches or teams or even casters here, I'm saying there is a lack of respect from an organization, KeSPA, for foreign fans. If they look at their tournament as being the best in Korea, which they are, they should at the very LEAST try and give foreign fans a good stream! The caster situation is one thing, they aren't good enough to be at the PL and that's not their fault for taking the gig, but KeSPA's for not giving it to someone better. More importantly though, the fact that they are casting from a stream themselves, without obsing and without being able to pull up Units or Productions Tabs is COMPLETELY stupid. So don't coincide my argument with that of those who just whine for the sake of it, because this issue is so much more than that.
My point is you have to be able to cut out what's fluff and what's not. It also helps being familiar with the situation at hand. These notable figures you speak of. Well, I already sounded off on a few of them to demonstrate that they're guilty of the same critique they're displaying, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I say give it time instead of jumping the gun and give them constructive criticism. KeSPA wanted to get their own people; they wanted the casters to be in the actual studio. There were a lot of technical issues in the first two weeks of PL before SNM and Whiplash entered the fray. Anyone remember what GOM did early on with the Code A casters and how they went about recruiting? Deja vu, history repeats itself.
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On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
.... and like FXOBoss said, they are largely unchanged ever since the casters arrived. If anyone thinks that lower viewership count is SIGNIFICANTLY impacted by the change of casting duo they are deluding themselves. Dooont forget that the 5-7 k viewers are usually during the week, and with blizzard cup/ GSL still on, or even this thing called christmas. People chose streams, and sure perhaps with better casters they could snatch up a few more viewers from GSL viewercount, but honestly how many? People will still watch GSL when its on, and not even the sacred casting Royalty of TB and inc would change that viewer count for PL during these times, NO WAY.
Seriously the guys who stop watching because its not their favorite duo casting, go ahead and stop. You will be missing out on whats quickly becoming the most fun league to watch, be it in english, korean or muted. The world will keep turning and the league will continue on for at least the next 7 months. And if it dies later, it wont be because 500 foreign nerds decided to boycott it.
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On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
Yes. Truffaut was a critic who spoke harshly of French cinema at the time, and was told to go do better himself. Then he did.
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How you guys do you watch this league ? I think I missed everything... any way to see the VODs?
I want to see those awful casters myself =o
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United States22883 Posts
On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all.
Actually I've heard that a lot. It's still a terrible counter argument, but it shows that all types of people are bad at handling criticism. 
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On December 27 2012 03:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote:
so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that. Am I the only one absolutely gobsmacked that a TL employee has the audacity to spout such bullshit? This thread is fucking toxic and a TL employee is leading the way, holy shit. Want to know what's literally killing eSports? This. The inability to discuss things like adults without resorting to tit-for-tat ad hominem wankery. You know who is in a really good position to criticize casters? Other casters. Most of the people in this thread know next to nothing about how to cast an event, only what they personally want from their casters which is going to vary from person to person. Zero experience in events or the business behind eSports leads to fairly poor quality feedback. You wanna know the reason why some casters are talking about this issue? Because it's in our best interests not to see Proleague fall flat on it's arse. The more Kespa realizes that the foreign audience is actually important, the better off the scene will be. What happened when they switched out casters? A 50-75% drop in audience that hasn't recovered yet. Like it or not prominent casters have an audience of their own that they can bring to the table. Remember when tournaments would get half the views if they didn't have Tastosis or Day[9] casting? That was a while ago but the effect is still there to a lesser degree, particularly when you're watching a bunch of unfamiliar Koreans in a strange format. If you lose your audience because you don't have a casting duo that can keep them, you're in trouble. Kespa as a result views the foreign audience as unimportant, stops cooperating with foreign organizations and we get back into a BW-esque situation of foreigners becoming a niche that's not catered to. It benefits nobody. Yeah, I can totally understand the problem with getting an experienced casting duo. The gig is actually terrible. The amount of money offered was not enough to pay any regular event caster and the setup was less than ideal. Casting at 4am was not that fun. However the ability to speak fluent English and cast well with your partner is important to pretty much every listener ever, regardless of their preferences and Proleague is not the place to practice that.
That makes absolutely no sense. What does someone's ability to cast an event have to do with their criticism of casters? Are you seriously saying that people who've spent hundreds of hours watching Starcraft aren't in a position to comment on a caster simply because they've never done any casting themselves?
Incidentally, it strikes my as rather absurd that you talk about how somebody on here has the audacity to spout bullshit and that this thread is toxic and all that, and then later imply that SNM can't speak English fluently. That's rather low when he clearly is very capable of doing so.
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On December 27 2012 07:29 FXOBoSs wrote:Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best. I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone. Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys. Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost. Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague
I know this is off-topic but I hope people forgive me cause this is something ive been wondering
what is indeed up with the proleague venue? why is it like some backstage area with no spectators, completely unlike proleague was before? Players going to their teammates after a win looks so much less epic than it used to. It reminds me of Courage, not of a televised proleague match
Cant think of a good reason for the change
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On December 27 2012 08:01 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all. Yes. Truffaut was a critic who spoke harshly of French cinema at the time, and was told to go do better himself. Then he did.
Not just Truffaut, the whole group from Cahiers du Cinema (including Godard!) created films, and most of them were incredible. Completely transformed not just French cinema, but global cinema. I mean, they invented the concept of auteurship (influencing, among others, Christopher Nolan (Inception can be read to be very much about the concept of auteurship)) and cinema verite (should have accents, no idea how to do so) which has widely influenced both British and American cinema.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On December 27 2012 08:23 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:29 FXOBoSs wrote:Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best. I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone. Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys. Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost. Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague I know this is off-topic but I hope people forgive me cause this is something ive been wondering what is indeed up with the proleague venue? why is it like some backstage area with no spectators, completely unlike proleague was before? Players going to their teammates after a win looks so much less epic than it used to. It reminds me of Courage, not of a televised proleague match Cant think of a good reason for the change
It's just how they decided to split up the weekday and weekend matches. I heard that the weekday matches are played at the same place as the Code A qualifiers while the weekend matches are played at the normal venue. It's also how KeSPA decided to split the broadcasting duties - weekday SPOTV, weekend OGN.
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On December 27 2012 08:11 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 03:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:On December 26 2012 19:39 Waxangel wrote:
so apparently there's a terrible-casters guild that agrees not to criticize each other, but gangs up on newcomers
alright, so that's exaggerating somewhat - inc and husky have improved a lot since NASL S1 and the SC2 beta days, respectively. But I can't be the only one who finds the act of holding PL up on some pedestal in order to take down two newcomers somewhat distasteful and hypocritical. All the polite language in the world doesn't mask that. Am I the only one absolutely gobsmacked that a TL employee has the audacity to spout such bullshit? This thread is fucking toxic and a TL employee is leading the way, holy shit. Want to know what's literally killing eSports? This. The inability to discuss things like adults without resorting to tit-for-tat ad hominem wankery. You know who is in a really good position to criticize casters? Other casters. Most of the people in this thread know next to nothing about how to cast an event, only what they personally want from their casters which is going to vary from person to person. Zero experience in events or the business behind eSports leads to fairly poor quality feedback. You wanna know the reason why some casters are talking about this issue? Because it's in our best interests not to see Proleague fall flat on it's arse. The more Kespa realizes that the foreign audience is actually important, the better off the scene will be. What happened when they switched out casters? A 50-75% drop in audience that hasn't recovered yet. Like it or not prominent casters have an audience of their own that they can bring to the table. Remember when tournaments would get half the views if they didn't have Tastosis or Day[9] casting? That was a while ago but the effect is still there to a lesser degree, particularly when you're watching a bunch of unfamiliar Koreans in a strange format. If you lose your audience because you don't have a casting duo that can keep them, you're in trouble. Kespa as a result views the foreign audience as unimportant, stops cooperating with foreign organizations and we get back into a BW-esque situation of foreigners becoming a niche that's not catered to. It benefits nobody. Yeah, I can totally understand the problem with getting an experienced casting duo. The gig is actually terrible. The amount of money offered was not enough to pay any regular event caster and the setup was less than ideal. Casting at 4am was not that fun. However the ability to speak fluent English and cast well with your partner is important to pretty much every listener ever, regardless of their preferences and Proleague is not the place to practice that. That makes absolutely no sense. What does someone's ability to cast an event have to do with their criticism of casters? Are you seriously saying that people who've spent hundreds of hours watching Starcraft aren't in a position to comment on a caster simply because they've never done any casting themselves? Incidentally, it strikes my as rather absurd that you talk about how somebody on here has the audacity to spout bullshit and that this thread is toxic and all that, and then later imply that SNM can't speak English fluently. That's rather low when he clearly is very capable of doing so.
With regards to the bold, I don't think he's trying to say that at all. I think he means the general public. Anyone with a brain would tell you not to listen to everyone because there's a lot of bad advice out there. If you have a job that's in the public eye you need a good filter.
I'm going to borrow the WWE example I've been using throughout this ongoing conversation. In the dressing room you're going to get all kinds of advice from the boys and divas. Some of it will be good, some of it not so much. In many cases you have to look out for yourself on the roster because it's a competitive market and you are fighting for TV time all the time, so even if you are in the industry and other guys are telling you what to do. You have to watch your back at all times. You really need to know who to trust and who you cannot. It's just how the business is.
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I'm going to skip the other blurb because I already addressed it and talk about the casters having their own audience with social media and things like Youtube which has some truth to it (especially in TB's case because he does review a ton of other games constantly which could bring new eyes). Keyword, here is new eyes. Unfortunately there is a lot of overlap with this and these casters aren't necessarily bringing in new viewers or new money. Something I spoke about before with the idea of subscriptions and the MLG model months back.
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On December 27 2012 08:23 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:29 FXOBoSs wrote:Another thread about casting another thread full of insults to people trying their best. I have consistently watched more proleague in a small period of time than... well... ever, and the casting hasn't phased me at all, albeit a little monotone. Seeing as though the casters are relatively new, the whiners should probably just open up a youtube channel and show us all how its done and then take the job from the current guys. Proleague numbers are not affected by the casters, they are still around the same as when it started other than the EGTL hype. So there is no reason to replace them at all, especially for extra cost. Next subject please... I propose the use of the LAN venue for proleague I know this is off-topic but I hope people forgive me cause this is something ive been wondering what is indeed up with the proleague venue? why is it like some backstage area with no spectators, completely unlike proleague was before? Players going to their teammates after a win looks so much less epic than it used to. It reminds me of Courage, not of a televised proleague match Cant think of a good reason for the change
There are 2 venues. One is more of a nice studio that you are used to seeing (for the friday/saturday games) with nice booths and seats and cameras. The other is where like qualifiers are held for OGN/GOM and such (few cameras, no booth, just a few fans on benches)
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I disagree about viewer numbers, as it's been stated by a few people now that viewership numbers aren't swung too terribly much by casters at the moment.
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EPT
