On December 27 2012 03:29 TotalBiscuit wrote: You know who is in a really good position to criticize casters? Other casters. Most of the people in this thread know next to nothing about how to cast an event, only what they personally want from their casters which is going to vary from person to person. Zero experience in events or the business behind eSports leads to fairly poor quality feedback.
You're addressing a few different issues here and mixing them. - Ability to Cast a game - Ability to host an event - Experience in the esports business - Experience in being behind the scenes at an event.
I very rarely see fans criticize casters for their ability to host an event. For casters like TB, Husky, Whiplash/SNM, etc the criticisms are almost exclusively regarding lack of game knowledge, lack of knowledge of players or making incorrect predictions. I think a lot of fans LOOK for these issues due to a predisposition to not like these casters in the first place. That doesn't make their criticisms invalid.
I think the issue is that when you are dealing with casting a strategic game, there isn't a lot of subjective material - either your prediction as a caster is correct or it is wrong. The correctness is often apparent moments after you make the prediction (with great confidence). If you are right, it is just accepted as standard (you are the caster, so you should be right). If you are wrong, you should will be publicly executed. You really have to be running at like a 98% accuracy rate (artosis tier) to get respect - whether that standard is fair or not is of course up to debate.
Fans experience in esports business or running events has nothing to due with the validity of their criticism of a caster's game knowledge.
Lack of game knowledge is "okay" (at least in my eyes) though as long as you have a good co-caster with deep knowledge of the game.The key is always balance. What guys like TB and Husky lack in game knowledge, they make up for with fantastic play by play and color commentary. Something a lot of deep analysis guys lack. It's usually when guys like TB get partnered with another PBP caster that people hate on his (and his co-casters) style. The problem with these two new guys is that they don't even come close to balancing each other out. Neither have a deep knowledge of the game, neither are good at color, neither are very good at the play by play, and neither have the charisma to carry themselves, let alone the other.
If they want to stick with these guys, they should at least bring a talented third guy into the rotation to help balance everything while also showing them the ropes.
I personally think the two English castors should be able to participate ingame as an observer, it seems to be a huge issue they have in their previous casts. The current observer has been missing a lot of key moments in the game, completely misses tech and drops for the most part and the English castors were having a hard time trying to explain things happening in game when they weren't able to see it themselves. I always watch the Korean streams whenever its available and I can tell you that the Korean castors are not that much better than the English castors. They're more fluid and emotional but in terms of analysis both Koreans and English castors are on the same level.
And people wonder why there is so much pandering to reddit these days. TL has become a place where nobody cares about their posts they make and try to shit on everybody. GG 2012. GLHF 2013
On December 27 2012 05:38 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote: And people wonder why there is so much pandering to reddit these days. TL has become a place where nobody cares about their posts they make and try to shit on everybody. GG 2012. GLHF 2013
On December 27 2012 03:29 TotalBiscuit wrote: You know who is in a really good position to criticize casters? Other casters. Most of the people in this thread know next to nothing about how to cast an event, only what they personally want from their casters which is going to vary from person to person. Zero experience in events or the business behind eSports leads to fairly poor quality feedback.
You're addressing a few different issues here and mixing them. - Ability to Cast a game - Ability to host an event - Experience in the esports business - Experience in being behind the scenes at an event.
I very rarely see fans criticize casters for their ability to host an event. For casters like TB, Husky, Whiplash/SNM, etc the criticisms are almost exclusively regarding lack of game knowledge, lack of knowledge of players or making incorrect predictions. I think a lot of fans LOOK for these issues due to a predisposition to not like these casters in the first place. That doesn't make their criticisms invalid.
It's much easier to pick out these errors than to appreciate accuracy. I had only been actively played dota2 for a couple weeks when The International 2 came around and even i was thinking to myself "X caster is fucking terrible, how is it that even I can recognize these mistakes after a month of play?
I think the issue is that when you are dealing with casting a strategic game, there isn't a lot of subjective material - either your prediction as a caster is correct or it is wrong. The correctness is often apparent moments after you make the prediction (with great confidence). If you are right, it is just accepted as standard (you are the caster, so you should be right). If you are wrong, you will be publicly executed. You really have to be running at like a 98% accuracy rate (artosis tier) to get respect - whether that standard is fair or not is of course up to debate.
Fans experience in esports business or running events has nothing to due with the validity of their criticism of a caster's game knowledge.
I like commas and brackets.
I don’t think TB is addressing the issue of game knowledge at all, more that most of the feedback on forums and reddit is not helpful or flat out sucks. He is 100% correct that most of the criticism focuses on how the caster should be more like the poster’s favorite caster. Few, if any, take into account the preparation time available for the cast, conditions of the event or amount of time the caster has been on stage.
And 98% of the criticism comes in the most abrasive, entitled posts that human language could muster. If there is good feedback out there, it is burred in a sea of non-sense. It is why I am not shocked or offended when I see that the Artosis and Tasteless seek their feedback from other sources, rather than forums. They are professionals and they should seek feedback from the people with the most knowledge about their craft.
I dont really post much and I don't have much of a bias either for any caster. I will say that the stream is really leaving a lot to desire. The caster are not that great but from scanning through most of the post it seems that they are basically casting a stream like you or I would if we were to cast a players stream we were watching basically. I can't really trash the casters to much considering what they are being provided.
I will say that I played BW forever even though I wasn't that good. I was around for the 1st ICCup season and all that jazz. Kespa was BW for most of us back then in terms of "pro". I basically loved the players but hated the company for being such shit heads to all of us that were not Korean. Its the same thing still in SC2 they are just so stubborn it makes no sense to us. I want to see the players get out there and mix it up with the best and here we are again with them doing power play after power play. We all love the BW greats but at this point I am starting to have issues with supporting Kespa in any way whats so ever which sucks because supporting the players will support Kespa too.
For Kespa to still basically after 10 years of following them to still not give a shit about us sadly isn't even close to surprise for most of the BW crowd. For the newer players to SC2 we present to you Kespa. Enjoy.
PS EG I love you guys so much for getting Jaedong. SOOOOO much. Same for TL with Sea even though that didn't work out it was a pleasure to see a BW player from Kespa join TL and interact with the TL community.
I've seen a few broadcasts with this new casting team (SNM et al) for SPL, and I will add my voice to the dissenters. They have room to grow no doubt, but I would much rather have a more professional and cleaner cast for what is the best opportunity English-language casters have had in SPL. By cleaner, I mean better diction, interaction, and role-definition. With my own limited knowledge of SC2, I am drawn much more to the color commentator at moment, as he has provided valuable insight. The play-by-play announcer needs to be more suited to that role, describing the action with more energy and accuracy. There have been a couple instances where he gets something incorrect/forgets and just won't let it go (being either right or wrong). The focus for the PBP must be the action at hand. Save your breath for exciting moments as well, you don't have to talk fast 2 minutes into the match for no reason.
Again, I'd like to see more professionalism. Back up opinions with statistics if available. When describing strategic trends, don't be so general. Here's an example that bothers me:
Protoss is preparing for a push against Zerg. The casters start identifying the relevant information (current units, units in production, potential risks, etc.) for the imminent attack. Then they start talking about what people have been doing recently, saying "well Ps have been adding a couple more stalkers and less immortals" and going down that path. With the current casting team it's just been hard to listen to, as the "people" the refer to are entirely non-specific, and there are hardly any statistics. At the very least I'd like to hear at what time/relative position players are making pushes. As a lot of SC2 seems to be about who makes the first big push, we should make an effort to better analyze these situations without adding a bunch of irrelevant babble.
And as my last nitpick, please stop saying "Anyways" or the like when your color commentator is done speaking. It breaks up the action unnecessarily. We as the audience will follow easily if the casters are fluid.
To summarize: - More specificity when describing trends or that magical "metagame" - Better role definition for casters, it is clear what each of them are good at. - Back up opinions, and don't extrapolate Masters-level strategy to SPL just because you can. Proleaguers practice with only the best of the best. - And the homerism for foreigners does go a tad overboard. I'm fine rooting for someone who is certainly an underdog, but be realistic.
On December 27 2012 06:16 sharkeyanti wrote: I've seen a few broadcasts with this new casting team (TB and Mr. Bitter) for SPL, and I will add my voice to the dissenters. They have room to grow no doubt, but I would much rather have a more professional and cleaner cast for what is the best opportunity English-language casters have had in SPL. By cleaner, I mean better diction, interaction, and role-definition. With my own limited knowledge of SC2, I am drawn much more to the color commentator at moment, as he has provided valuable insight. The play-by-play announcer needs to be more suited to that role, describing the action with more energy and accuracy. There have been a couple instances where he gets something incorrect/forgets and just won't let it go (being either right or wrong). The focus for the PBP must be the action at hand. Save your breath for exciting moments as well, you don't have to talk fast 2 minutes into the match for no reason.
Again, I'd like to see more professionalism. Back up opinions with statistics if available. When describing strategic trends, don't be so general. Here's an example that bothers me:
Protoss is preparing for a push against Zerg. The casters start identifying the relevant information (current units, units in production, potential risks, etc.) for the imminent attack. Then they start talking about what people have been doing recently, saying "well Ps have been adding a couple more stalkers and less immortals" and going down that path. With the current casting team it's just been hard to listen to, as the "people" the refer to are entirely non-specific, and there are hardly any statistics. At the very least I'd like to hear at what time/relative position players are making pushes. As a lot of SC2 seems to be about who makes the first big push, we should make an effort to better analyze these situations without adding a bunch of irrelevant babble.
And as my last nitpick, please stop saying "Anyways" or the like when your color commentator is done speaking. It breaks up the action unnecessarily. We as the audience will follow easily if the casters are fluid.
To summarize: - More specificity when describing trends or that magical "metagame" - Better role definition for casters, it is clear what each of them are good at. - Back up opinions, and don't extrapolate Masters-level strategy to SPL just because you can. Proleaguers practice with only the best of the best. - And the homerism for foreigners does go a tad overboard. I'm fine rooting for someone who is certainly an underdog, but be realistic.
TB and MrBitter are not the currently pro league commentary team.
Imo Whiplash is doing ok. SNM just makes it unbearable at times. His random "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH's" are really embarrassing and just take my attention away from the game and into thinking about how bad the casting is. I don't care if casters get things wrong that much, because every caster does(some more than others). The forced excitement at wrong points in the game, that shit is sooooooo annoying. They can cast a game without much emotion during the whole thing. And then BOOOOOOOOM. GG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even if it was a boring game with a boring conclusion...
If Moletrap got all that hate when he was at GOM i don't see why these guys would be exempt from it.
On the topic of established casters criticizing new casters. It's not like Incontrol has turned on a playhem daily and then started bashing some kids. This is PL! And if you take a job at the top, you better be ready for the criticism. Bad or good.
Get Sayle & Orb over there That would be amazing lol
On December 27 2012 05:38 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote: And people wonder why there is so much pandering to reddit these days. TL has become a place where nobody cares about their posts they make and try to shit on everybody. GG 2012. GLHF 2013
Just would like to say that I've been watching some of the proleagues live and I really think the casters have good chemistry and are very enjoyable. SNM is a boss caster as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I'm surprised ppl disagree.
On December 27 2012 06:16 sharkeyanti wrote: I've seen a few broadcasts with this new casting team for SPL, and I will add my voice to the dissenters. They have room to grow no doubt, but I would much rather have a more professional and cleaner cast for what is the best opportunity English-language casters have had in SPL. By cleaner, I mean better diction, interaction, and role-definition. With my own limited knowledge of SC2, I am drawn much more to the color commentator at moment, as he has provided valuable insight. The play-by-play announcer needs to be more suited to that role, describing the action with more energy and accuracy. There have been a couple instances where he gets something incorrect/forgets and just won't let it go (being either right or wrong). The focus for the PBP must be the action at hand. Save your breath for exciting moments as well, you don't have to talk fast 2 minutes into the match for no reason.
Again, I'd like to see more professionalism. Back up opinions with statistics if available. When describing strategic trends, don't be so general. Here's an example that bothers me:
Protoss is preparing for a push against Zerg. The casters start identifying the relevant information (current units, units in production, potential risks, etc.) for the imminent attack. Then they start talking about what people have been doing recently, saying "well Ps have been adding a couple more stalkers and less immortals" and going down that path. With the current casting team it's just been hard to listen to, as the "people" the refer to are entirely non-specific, and there are hardly any statistics. At the very least I'd like to hear at what time/relative position players are making pushes. As a lot of SC2 seems to be about who makes the first big push, we should make an effort to better analyze these situations without adding a bunch of irrelevant babble.
And as my last nitpick, please stop saying "Anyways" or the like when your color commentator is done speaking. It breaks up the action unnecessarily. We as the audience will follow easily if the casters are fluid.
To summarize: - More specificity when describing trends or that magical "metagame" - Better role definition for casters, it is clear what each of them are good at. - Back up opinions, and don't extrapolate Masters-level strategy to SPL just because you can. Proleaguers practice with only the best of the best. - And the homerism for foreigners does go a tad overboard. I'm fine rooting for someone who is certainly an underdog, but be realistic.
TB and MrBitter are not the currently pro league commentary team.
On December 27 2012 06:36 Sultan.P wrote: Just would like to say that I've been watching some of the proleagues live and I really think the casters have good chemistry and are very enjoyable. SNM is a boss caster as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I'm surprised ppl disagree.
Yeh, i'm not sure where anyone would find any AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh
On December 27 2012 06:36 Sultan.P wrote: Just would like to say that I've been watching some of the proleagues live and I really think the casters have good chemistry and are very enjoyable. SNM is a boss caster as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I'm surprised ppl disagree.
Yeh, i'm not sure where anyone would find any AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh
Waiting for Husky and crew to do a skit of that nonsense.
Normal conversation with Ro and suddenly GEEEEEEEEEEEGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE in her face. Would be pretty awesome.
On December 27 2012 06:28 Za7oX wrote: On the topic of established casters criticizing new casters. It's not like Incontrol has turned on a playhem daily and then started bashing some kids. This is PL! And if you take a job at the top, you better be ready for the criticism. Bad or good.
The main issue I have with Incontrol, TB, Frodan, etc. calling out the PL cast is that they're doing it publicly on a forum and expect it to be an ok thing to do because they're "fellow casters." If they're just going to post here and not do anything about it, what they said is really no better than some random person bashing SNM/Whiplash. These guys have made it big and have connections who can put them in touch with SNM/Whiplash to help them improve behind the scenes. Wasn't it Frodan who said that the other NASL casters helped him transition in the beginning? The feedback from his peers all happened privately and his mentors all work at the same place as him so they wouldn't blurt it out. The other casters don't have a duty to help the SPL casters improve, but if they have to know that their "feedback" loses value if they're just posting on a forum.
You wanna know the reason why some casters are talking about this issue? Because it's in our best interests not to see Proleague fall flat on it's arse. The more Kespa realizes that the foreign audience is actually important, the better off the scene will be. What happened when they switched out casters? A 50-75% drop in audience that hasn't recovered yet. Like it or not prominent casters have an audience of their own that they can bring to the table. Remember when tournaments would get half the views if they didn't have Tastosis or Day[9] casting? That was a while ago but the effect is still there to a lesser degree, particularly when you're watching a bunch of unfamiliar Koreans in a strange format. If you lose your audience because you don't have a casting duo that can keep them, you're in trouble. Kespa as a result views the foreign audience as unimportant, stops cooperating with foreign organizations and we get back into a BW-esque situation of foreigners becoming a niche that's not catered to. It benefits nobody.
The audience drop is a definite factor. I enjoyed TB and MB casting together, even with the technical glitches and stream crashes. I can state that the first day I watched the English cast post-TB/MB I went to bed early (earlier?). Yes I could have muted the stream, watched the Korean stream, etc. but none of these options interested me at the moment.
It pains me to see such a large viewership drop for THE LEAGUE and I don't want to even consider a repeat of the BW Korean/foreigner scene.
I hope for an improvement in the casting situation of some sort, but I fear importing well-known casters is a long-shot at best since most of them have stable, long-term commitments. Of course, this is both good for the casters and the scene, but not for a potential solution to the English casting of Proleague.
lol
Okay, you want to continue down this road? I'd like to hear TB's explanation for the drop-off from the last Shoutcraft Invitational compared to the other two. I remember the second Shoutcraft Invitational getting over 50k people. Business was good. How did the last one do? I tuned in for a bit and let's just say the numbers weren't as good, but I have no concern over drop rate. After all, these are one offs. What I'm trying to say is you guys are being extremely fickle and it hasn't even been a month with the turnover. I already explained this before about ten pages back, but I can see why some people would miss it. I rather not repeat myself, so if you want to hear it just go through my posts using my history for a small explanation.
With that said, let's look at it this from an ESF/KeSPA perspective. When esportstv started (screw it, let's go back to the early days of re-streams and how we used to cover BW PL) 700-900 viewers for PL was average. Let's be generous when it comes to the bigger match-ups like KT, or SKT1 is playing. Let's say they're playing against each other. On average we'd see around 1-2k people tuning in on those streams. So before, we had around 1k people tuning in from TL. Let's say I'm the ESF or KeSPA and I'm looking at the present day numbers for SC2 PL. For minor match-ups I'm receiving anywhere from 6.5-7.5k viewers with SC2 (Stars versus STX was at 6.6-6.7k after game 1). If I were ESF/KeSPA I'd look at that as a positive when we're talking about growth compared to frankenleague numbers and when they launched esportstv. The you have teams like EG-TL, with build-up and hype (Fionn's numero uno team in his ranking! ) playing their first frigging match ever in PL. What the hell you think are going to happen to the numbers? 18-19k Let the world rejoice. They start by going 0-3 against T8 and look what happens some people disappear. Match continues EG-TL turns the tides and we get to TaeJa and Ace match we surpass 12k. Tada; magic!
Now we're really talking about WWE Nielsen Ratings lmao. It's fickle as shit and there are a ton of variables in play other than casters not knowing their shit. Like I said before, every caster I've ever known makes bad calls or mistakes. We're not perfect; we're all human. You think everyone started tuning out of the WWE PG product because they put stupid Michael Cole as the play-by-play guy? Fuck no. In fact, they encourage you to not like him as he was a heel not too long ago. Articulating and enunciation is very important though and guess what? You ever heard of WWE's ring announcer Tony Chimel? The guy is absolutely horrendous at enunciation and all the boys make fun of him all the time just like good ol' Lillian Garcia but for different reasons. Watch Pro Wrestling Off The Air if you want to get an idea of exactly how bad Chimel can be. Yet he still has a job.
5:15 is a good start.
Some people complain about the yelling SNM does (I guess he's trying to bring the Korean energy into his casting because he admires them so). I always tell broadcasters to do what works for them. You have to find your niche and here's the only piece of advice I sent to Geoff Robinson when he started casting the NASL:
When you guys start shouting it feels a little forced and comes off fake. Considering you guys are doing 3 months of this I'm sure it will fix itself in time.
I would be damned if Geoff sounded off on SNM for being too loud.
*
Commentating is a science and you need to learn when to give and take. SNM has been working solo on BW casts for some time, but he still has a lot to learn about the craft and you know what? So did a lot of other guys and many of them were thrown into the Lion's Den very early on as well. Sayle (turned it down) and SNM were asked to do the job. They were more loyal to the league than many other guys ever were over the last two years and they gave whiplash and SNM the nod. I say let it play out and give them fair criticism.
On December 27 2012 06:28 Za7oX wrote: On the topic of established casters criticizing new casters. It's not like Incontrol has turned on a playhem daily and then started bashing some kids. This is PL! And if you take a job at the top, you better be ready for the criticism. Bad or good.
The main issue I have with Incontrol, TB, Frodan, etc. calling out the PL cast is that they're doing it publicly on a forum and expect it to be an ok thing to do because they're "fellow casters." If they're just going to post here and not do anything about it, what they said is really no better than some random person bashing SNM/Whiplash. These guys have made it big and have connections who can put them in touch with SNM/Whiplash to help them improve behind the scenes. Wasn't it Frodan who said that the other NASL casters helped him transition in the beginning? The feedback from his peers all happened privately and his mentors all work at the same place as him so they wouldn't blurt it out. The other casters don't have a duty to help the SPL casters improve, but if they have to know that their "feedback" loses value if they're just posting on a forum.
I really don’t think it is as big of a deal as people are making it out to be, but people do love drama. I do not see any reason that casters should not publicly criticize other casters out of “professional courtesy”, and I really don’t see any reason for the community to get bent out of shape about it. In this case, SPL chose to hire local casters over the production preformed by TL. Many people feel(including myself) the casting quality is worse and I don’t think the casters should be barred from voicing their complaints out of “professional courtesy” and the community really shouldn't try to impose that. Professional courtesy, by design, is set by professionals in the field, not outside observers.
Is KeSPA even aware of this debate of ours? Are we that unimportant in their eyes? Wish someone official would address this with either a: ''We will try and find someone better.'' or a ''We believe in these casters and their rapid growth.'' Don't give a shit, I'm just looking for a reason to not boycott this league. -.-
You can't say that and then bash them for the lackluster (your view, not mine) production value that's been scraped together. I get hate for saying I don't personally like your casting so you damn well better get the same for a post that basically says "it sucks, get some better people involved because we deserve more".
On December 27 2012 06:28 Za7oX wrote: On the topic of established casters criticizing new casters. It's not like Incontrol has turned on a playhem daily and then started bashing some kids. This is PL! And if you take a job at the top, you better be ready for the criticism. Bad or good.
The main issue I have with Incontrol, TB, Frodan, etc. calling out the PL cast is that they're doing it publicly on a forum and expect it to be an ok thing to do because they're "fellow casters." If they're just going to post here and not do anything about it, what they said is really no better than some random person bashing SNM/Whiplash. These guys have made it big and have connections who can put them in touch with SNM/Whiplash to help them improve behind the scenes. Wasn't it Frodan who said that the other NASL casters helped him transition in the beginning? The feedback from his peers all happened privately and his mentors all work at the same place as him so they wouldn't blurt it out. The other casters don't have a duty to help the SPL casters improve, but if they have to know that their "feedback" loses value if they're just posting on a forum.
It wasn't like Frodan started at NASL. He worked his way up there, casting/organizing playhem daily's.
EPT
That would be amazing lol
) playing their first frigging match ever in PL. What the hell you think are going to happen to the numbers? 18-19k Let the world rejoice. They start by going 0-3 against T8 and look what happens some people disappear. Match continues EG-TL turns the tides and we get to TaeJa and Ace match we surpass 12k. Tada; magic! 
