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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On December 27 2012 09:16 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:42 Kennigit wrote:
There is no worse counter argument to caster criticism than "lets see how good you are". Has any professional chef ever told a food critic "WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET IN THE KITCHEN HUH?". Has any movie reviewer ever been seriously asked to direct a film? It's critique. Deal with it.
Viewer numbers speak. That's it, that's all. There's a difference between caster criticism and "I could do better than these guys, hell anyone who has chatted about Starcraft with his friends can do better". Those of course are silly exaggerations and tbh I wish they were moderated in this thread.
If you see it please report it. We do our best, but can't be at all places all the time and rely on reports.
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It amuses me that even people of some distinction and influence within this community care to weigh in with a dogmatic positivity toward the quality of these casters - openly disputing what viewer statistics, as well as the polling of opinions in this thread make undeniable. I think I have even picked up on (throughout this thread) the casters themselves being aware of their limitations and making no such denials? And then some of these people then disclose that they are not a viewer that cares especially about the casting part of their SC2 viewing experience.
Are you being argumentative for the sake of it, or do you have a very roundabout way of trying to support these casters where-in you mistakenly believe that being dishonestly positive about their current status and struggle is somehow conducive to their improvement?
We're trying to have an honest, mature discussion where critique is the very source of our opinions, and through that, our dialogue. If you can't, or would prefer not to abide such a conversation.. why are you injecting yourself?
With the poor quality of the casters being a matter actually settled, perhaps we might refocus more on the real issue here which gives birth to this circumstance: KeSPA!
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On December 27 2012 12:28 Lumi wrote:
It amuses me that even people of some distinction and influence within this community care to weigh in with a dogmatic positivity toward the quality of these casters - openly disputing what viewer statistics, as well as the polling of opinions in this thread make undeniable. I think I have even picked up on (throughout this thread) the casters themselves being aware of their limitations and making no such denials? And then some of these people then disclose that they are not a viewer that cares especially about the casting part of their SC2 viewing experience.
Are you being argumentative for the sake of it, or do you have a very roundabout way of trying to support these casters where-in you mistakenly believe that being dishonestly positive about their current status and struggle is somehow conducive to their improvement?
We're trying to have an honest, mature discussion where critique is the very source of our opinions, and through that, our dialogue. If you can't, or would prefer not to abide such a conversation.. why are you injecting yourself?
With the poor quality of the casters being a matter actually settled, perhaps we might refocus more on the real issue here which gives birth to this circumstance: KeSPA!
glad to see you have settled the issue and ignored all posts with different perspectives. how are those blinders working for you?
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On December 27 2012 12:28 Lumi wrote:
It amuses me that even people of some distinction and influence within this community care to weigh in with a dogmatic positivity toward the quality of these casters - openly disputing what viewer statistics, as well as the polling of opinions in this thread make undeniable. I think I have even picked up on (throughout this thread) the casters themselves being aware of their limitations and making no such denials? And then some of these people then disclose that they are not a viewer that cares especially about the casting part of their SC2 viewing experience.
Are you being argumentative for the sake of it, or do you have a very roundabout way of trying to support these casters where-in you mistakenly believe that being dishonestly positive about their current status and struggle is somehow conducive to their improvement?
We're trying to have an honest, mature discussion where critique is the very source of our opinions, and through that, our dialogue. If you can't, or would prefer not to abide such a conversation.. why are you injecting yourself?
With the poor quality of the casters being a matter actually settled, perhaps we might refocus more on the real issue here which gives birth to this circumstance: KeSPA!
I thought we already did that when we were talking about money. Maybe you were too busy climbing on your high horse during that.
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On December 27 2012 12:53 Angel_ wrote:
I thought we already did that when we were talking about money. Maybe you were too busy climbing on your high horse during that.
I did say "refocus" and most certainly did not imply that no discussion of KeSPA, finances, or anything outside of the caster quality had been discussed before. I can tell you earnestly that I intended to refocus on matters that had already been touched upon. If you were savvy to this thread, as you so disgracefully accuse me of not being - you might be aware of my involvement in it earlier on.
On December 27 2012 12:35 dAPhREAk wrote:
glad to see you have settled the issue and ignored all posts with different perspectives. how are those blinders working for you?
^ You have some proof, or even indication that I have ignored the posts in this thread? Would you care to quote it, or otherwise describe it?
While you console yourselves with personal attacks, I remain aware that you've refrained absolutely from addressing the points I have raised, or restated. It's as if you're desperate to refute me or my opinions, and so insist on attempting to continue waging mighty internet combat - and yet you simply aren't going about it in an intellectually honest, or otherwise worthwhile manner. When you're ready to talk about what I'm talking about, instead of my character - which you are laughably mistaken about - I might find time for you once more.
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I still watch it regardless of who is casting but it still annoys me to not have enthusiastic/top notch casters for an event like this. I'd rather be able to listen to the game sounds/music then have the casting that is provided atm but its whatever I can't change it but I still watch it.
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On December 27 2012 13:04 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 12:53 Angel_ wrote:
I thought we already did that when we were talking about money. Maybe you were too busy climbing on your high horse during that. Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 12:35 dAPhREAk wrote:
glad to see you have settled the issue and ignored all posts with different perspectives. how are those blinders working for you? While you console yourselves with personal attacks, I remain aware that you've refrained absolutely from addressing the points I have raised, or restated. It's as if you're desperate to refute me, and keep waging mighty internet combat - and yet you simply can't go about it in an intellectually honest, or otherwise worthwhile manner. When you're ready to talk about what I'm talking about, instead of me, I might find the time of day for you once more.
intellectually honest would mean that you dont wear blinders, which you do. that wasnt a personal attack; a personal attack would be if i said that ignoring everyone's statements that are counter to your own makes you a moron, or just flat out saying you're a retard for your opinions--neither of which i have done. it is far from settled that the casters are bad--some people like them or consider them sufficient. you have apparently disregarded those opinions for your own purposes, and are trying to make yourself look smart with your verbosity, which is falling flat (that was a personal attack for reference).
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Im loving this whole thing, but what is up with the god awful buffering on Twitch tv? It's seriously almost unwatchable
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TBH, any caster who isn't named either Axeslav or Axletoss is sub-par and IMO are on their way out.
(so... you know.... something about throwing stones in glass houses)
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On December 27 2012 13:11 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 13:04 Lumi wrote:On December 27 2012 12:53 Angel_ wrote:
I thought we already did that when we were talking about money. Maybe you were too busy climbing on your high horse during that. On December 27 2012 12:35 dAPhREAk wrote:
glad to see you have settled the issue and ignored all posts with different perspectives. how are those blinders working for you? While you console yourselves with personal attacks, I remain aware that you've refrained absolutely from addressing the points I have raised, or restated. It's as if you're desperate to refute me, and keep waging mighty internet combat - and yet you simply can't go about it in an intellectually honest, or otherwise worthwhile manner. When you're ready to talk about what I'm talking about, instead of me, I might find the time of day for you once more. intellectually honest would mean that you dont wear blinders, which you do. that wasnt a personal attack; a personal attack would be if i said that ignoring everyone's statements that are counter to your own makes you a moron, or just flat out saying you're a retard for your opinions--neither of which i have done. it is far from settled that the casters are bad--some people like them or consider them sufficient. you have apparently disregarded those opinions for your own purposes, and are trying to make yourself look smart with your verbosity, which is falling flat (that was a personal attack for reference).
Allow me to clarify - when I said personal attack, I meant Ad Hominem. Please refer to this page if you still remain ignorant as to the truthfulness of your having perpetuated exactly this. You might wish to endeavor to exercise more patience, and less presumption, given that you are making errors left in right in what you find to be "apparent". It seems that you fancy the idea that I give two shits about how I "appear" to you, or others. I am blunt, on topic, and have only strayed from that topic in an effort to clarify matters about myself which you have personally raised.
While you pedantically harp on about your misperceptions of my character, as well as the topic of caster quality, I remain sourly amused by this common behavior, where-in the argument you're making relies on invalidating any subjective assessments because there exists, as there always does, a diversity of them that contradict each other. Are you really making the kind of stink which necessitates we go down that dreadfully boring and off topic road? I might bother if you hadn't shown to me such a petty character thus far. Instead, let me simply forestall you by clarifying that when I say that it is "settled", I am referencing a subjective majority consensus of opinions expressed here, and which are reflected in the viewership of the pro league. As well as the casters own humbleness in owning up to their subpar performance, which they are committed to improving.
Please, do not reply to me if you have nothing better to do than pick fights out of your arrogance in thinking that you might be the only one able to recognize details which are so obvious and beside the point as to not be worth the while of people actually concerned with the matter at hand. Best of luck in continuing to fault my presentation, or character, while continuing to neglect the blatant off-topic self-interested behavior of yours which I have outlined. Knowing full well that I have been comprehensive, honest, and authoritative on this little quarrel, I have to bid you a permanent farewell in this little interaction of ours, though I would read whatever you might like to offer. I simply must not become too much the hypocrite in feeding into this off-topic balogna that you've introduced, and which I have rightly scorned you for.
My horse is beautiful.
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On December 27 2012 13:25 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 13:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 27 2012 13:04 Lumi wrote:On December 27 2012 12:53 Angel_ wrote:
I thought we already did that when we were talking about money. Maybe you were too busy climbing on your high horse during that. On December 27 2012 12:35 dAPhREAk wrote:
glad to see you have settled the issue and ignored all posts with different perspectives. how are those blinders working for you? While you console yourselves with personal attacks, I remain aware that you've refrained absolutely from addressing the points I have raised, or restated. It's as if you're desperate to refute me, and keep waging mighty internet combat - and yet you simply can't go about it in an intellectually honest, or otherwise worthwhile manner. When you're ready to talk about what I'm talking about, instead of me, I might find the time of day for you once more. intellectually honest would mean that you dont wear blinders, which you do. that wasnt a personal attack; a personal attack would be if i said that ignoring everyone's statements that are counter to your own makes you a moron, or just flat out saying you're a retard for your opinions--neither of which i have done. it is far from settled that the casters are bad--some people like them or consider them sufficient. you have apparently disregarded those opinions for your own purposes, and are trying to make yourself look smart with your verbosity, which is falling flat (that was a personal attack for reference). Allow me to clarify - when I said personal attack, I meant Ad Hominem. Please refer to this page if you still remain ignorant as to the truthfulness of your having perpetuated exactly this. You might wish to endeavor to exercise more patience, and less presumption, given that you are making errors left in right in what you find to be "apparent". By the way, you perpetuated another ad hominem just now, declaraing that I'm trying to make myself look smart with my "verbosity". It seems that you fancy the idea that I give two shits about how I "appear" to you, or others. I am blunt, on topic, and have only strayed from that topic in an effort to clarify matters about myself which you have personally raised. While you pedantically harp on about your misperceptions of my character, as well as the topic of caster quality, I remain sourly amused by this common behavior, where-in the argument you're making relies on invalidating any subjective assessments because there exist a diversity of them that contradict each other. Are you really making the kind of stink which necessitates we go down that dreadfully boring and off topic road? I might bother if you hadn't shown to me such a petty character thus far. Instead, let me simply forestall you by clarifying that when I say that it is "settled", I am referencing a majority consensus of opinions expressed here, and which are reflected in the viewership of the pro league. As well as the casters own humbleness in owning up to their subpar performance, which they are committed to improving. Please, do not reply to me if you have nothing better to do than pick fights out of your arrogance in thinking that you might be the only one able to recognize details which are so obvious and beside the point as to not be worth the while of people actually concerned with the matter at hand. Best of luck in continuing to fault my presentation, or character, while continuing to neglect the blatant off-topic self-interested behavior of yours which I have outlined. Knowing full well that I have been comprehensive, honest, and authoritative on this little quarrel, I have to bid you a permanent farewell in this little interaction of ours, though I would read whatever you might like to offer. I simply must not become too much the hypocrite in feeding into this off-topic balogna that you've introduced, and which I have rightly scorned you for. My horse is beautiful.
a synonym for verbosity is verbal diarrhea.
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On December 27 2012 11:34 AlgeriaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 10:25 ReachTheSky wrote:On December 27 2012 10:18 AlgeriaT wrote:On December 26 2012 23:55 Dr.Sin wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind EG.Azael casting since he went back to Canada at the end of the EGMC (I felt he deserved to cast the finals as he had put so much work into it). He had made a twitter post that something regarding negotiating his contract. I don't know what he has in mind in terms of professional gaming and how that might influence this possibility though. Yes, with Azael being (having been??) on EG and everything, and possibly free at the moment, GET HIM OVER THERE!! One of the best casters at the moment. Azael is the completely monotone. He doesn't have any chemistry with anyone at all. On the contrary, I thought he had very good chemistry with Incontrol. One of the funnier casting duos around, while not repeating themselves too much and getting their knickers in a twist over insignificant things/trying to hard. Azael does have a pretty monotonous tone of voice, but during the MCSL casts I found him to be using that to his strength. Kind of a straight man to Inc's more outgoing (eccentric  ) style. Actually Inc + Azael casting Proleague would be fucking excellent.
To use another example, Idra has a very dry sense of humor and he too is pretty level headed in his cast unless he's really confused about why someone is doing something (at which point he's even funnier). Its a matter of style and that's where picking a good co-caster (like incontrol) makes all the difference.
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Watching the last three weeks of SPL I have to say I am in love with the format/teams/players and am looking forward to every single match that is to come. This is the first time I have setup a fantasy team for anything and that alone has renewed my enjoyment of watching SC2. However I am rather disappointed with the developments in the last week from EG-TL production to the new casters of SNM, Whiplash and Korean based production.
There has been much said of SNM's and Whiplash's casting experience, knowledge and presentation skills. While I agree this is an issue the heart of the problem is KeSPA itself. The communication from this organization is abysmal and I believe stems from a general lack of respect of the foreign community. A few examples demonstrating this being;
- EG-TL likely spent significant resources in negotiating and setting up the first weeks broadcasts. While the announcements said they were not sure how long they would be broadcasting for, I doubt they would have even bothered organizing and providing the cast if they knew for sure it was only for a week. Their resources and experience were only used for as little time as possible and then shut out as soon as they could get seemingly anything to replace them.
- The new casters just showed up. To my knowledge there was nothing said by KeSPA about removing EG-TL from production and replacing them with SNM and Whiplash. I'm not even sure how they would communicate out to the English audience if they wanted to, post in Korean then someone on TL translates it?
- While in the long term it was important to have casters and production in Korea by far a more important element is the quality of experience presented. The new casters have zero experience in casting large events and very little experience in casting SC2 overall. The production for the new casters is horrific the tools they need to have to do there jobs are missing.
- The initial plan for DoA and MonteCristo to cast proleague fell apart, apparently last minute. Leading to confusion just days before the start of SPL. While this may have just been an extremely unfortunate event it seems to be amateur and sloppy for an organization with the resources and experience of a decade in this business.
There will be further issues with KeSPA and I think this is only a foreshadowing of the relationship to expect in 2013. While KeSPA has made giant leaps to include the foreign community there is room for improvement, and clearly better communication.
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I feel that the casters are doing a sufficient job at the moment. They are missing fairly obvious things here and there (look at the production tab!) but that is alright since I complement their casting with my own eyes. What is not sufficient however, is the observer that is provided for the stream. The observer frequently misses drops and even death ball vs death ball engagements that I thought was unmissable. It annoys me very much indeed.
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On December 27 2012 13:25 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 13:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 27 2012 13:04 Lumi wrote:On December 27 2012 12:53 Angel_ wrote:
I thought we already did that when we were talking about money. Maybe you were too busy climbing on your high horse during that. On December 27 2012 12:35 dAPhREAk wrote:
glad to see you have settled the issue and ignored all posts with different perspectives. how are those blinders working for you? While you console yourselves with personal attacks, I remain aware that you've refrained absolutely from addressing the points I have raised, or restated. It's as if you're desperate to refute me, and keep waging mighty internet combat - and yet you simply can't go about it in an intellectually honest, or otherwise worthwhile manner. When you're ready to talk about what I'm talking about, instead of me, I might find the time of day for you once more. intellectually honest would mean that you dont wear blinders, which you do. that wasnt a personal attack; a personal attack would be if i said that ignoring everyone's statements that are counter to your own makes you a moron, or just flat out saying you're a retard for your opinions--neither of which i have done. it is far from settled that the casters are bad--some people like them or consider them sufficient. you have apparently disregarded those opinions for your own purposes, and are trying to make yourself look smart with your verbosity, which is falling flat (that was a personal attack for reference). Allow me to clarify - when I said personal attack, I meant Ad Hominem. Please refer to this page if you still remain ignorant as to the truthfulness of your having perpetuated exactly this. You might wish to endeavor to exercise more patience, and less presumption, given that you are making errors left in right in what you find to be "apparent". It seems that you fancy the idea that I give two shits about how I "appear" to you, or others. I am blunt, on topic, and have only strayed from that topic in an effort to clarify matters about myself which you have personally raised. While you pedantically harp on about your misperceptions of my character, as well as the topic of caster quality, I remain sourly amused by this common behavior, where-in the argument you're making relies on invalidating any subjective assessments because there exists, as there always does, a diversity of them that contradict each other. Are you really making the kind of stink which necessitates we go down that dreadfully boring and off topic road? I might bother if you hadn't shown to me such a petty character thus far. Instead, let me simply forestall you by clarifying that when I say that it is "settled", I am referencing a subjective majority consensus of opinions expressed here, and which are reflected in the viewership of the pro league. As well as the casters own humbleness in owning up to their subpar performance, which they are committed to improving. Please, do not reply to me if you have nothing better to do than pick fights out of your arrogance in thinking that you might be the only one able to recognize details which are so obvious and beside the point as to not be worth the while of people actually concerned with the matter at hand. Best of luck in continuing to fault my presentation, or character, while continuing to neglect the blatant off-topic self-interested behavior of yours which I have outlined. Knowing full well that I have been comprehensive, honest, and authoritative on this little quarrel, I have to bid you a permanent farewell in this little interaction of ours, though I would read whatever you might like to offer. I simply must not become too much the hypocrite in feeding into this off-topic balogna that you've introduced, and which I have rightly scorned you for. My horse is beautiful.
I was enjoying your use of language until this post. At this point it just became too long and I didn't want to read through it.
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I really think people need to go back to page 40 and continue to page 44 reading iNcontroL's, Husky's, FrodaN's, NonY's, and TotalBiscuit's (the post above NonY's... not the 1-5 line sentences replying to trolls...) thoughts on the matter.
Also to the people crying for Sayle, he only casted the BW-SC2 hybrid league for the BW half. Stop begging for him to come back. He won't. You guys need to accept  Reality.
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On December 27 2012 17:19 Elite_ wrote:I really think people need to go back to page 40 and continue to page 44 reading iNcontroL's, Husky's, FrodaN's, NonY's, and TotalBiscuit's (the post above NonY's... not the 1-5 line sentences replying to trolls...) thoughts on the matter. Also to the people crying for Sayle, he only casted the BW-SC2 hybrid league for the BW half. Stop begging for him to come back. He won't. You guys need to accept Reality.
I get what those posts are saying, but at the same time they leave a bit of a sour aftertaste, for several reasons.
First off, there's Incontrol who has improved at an incredible rate but was a really bad caster when he started. He has never casted a small tournament (if we don't count 2-3 showmatches with LZ in the first year of WoL, unless we count EG Masters as small) and he's critiquing people jumping straight into big tournaments without experience. What?
Than there's Huksy, an established caster arguing only established casters should get meaningful tournaments. If this doesn't raise an eyebrow for others, maybe I just have a too skeptical look at life.
FrodaN's post I can live with. He raises his points and clearly shows how they're founded in his own experience without having an angle. Props for your post really.
TB comes in with an "how dare you question big names in the community", "only other members of my rotary club have meaningful opinions" and "people tune in for me, not the tournament". Add in a dash of, "I didn't even want to do it anyway" at the end.
Nony ends the line-up with "We fought the evil king Kespa for years and years for freedom, liberty and equality, until we finally found new land, a land outside of the rule of the Dark Lord. We fertilized this land and we built houses, cities! And now that our fruits have ripened the evil king Kespa expects to barter for our goods without paying exuberant prices? NAY! NAY I SAY!".
Now please note that every single comment in this post is a horrible, horrendous over-exaggeration to point out far more subtle undertones. Pretty sure I'm committing some kind of political suicide by pointing these things out, but hey, that's my 2 cents.
The problem I have with all this is not with what they're saying, I tend to agree with them on the majority of the points they effectively try to make. The problem I have is that it really shouldn't be them saying it. Obviously the guys related to TLEG have a dog in this fight and would indirectly benefit from these guys falling short and Husky is trying hard not to play his own angle and to stay objective, but we all know he has one. I'd probably be heartily agreeing with most the points they're making if I wasn't skeptical about them making them.
Edit: And I think this might be the first time where Waxangel and I are somewhat on the same page about anything.
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Oh also to return to the actual topic (sorry for getting sucked in). I think a lot of us saw this debacle coming as soon as it became clear Doa wasn't casting. Offsite casting isn't a solution, it was a band-aid. There isn't any big-name casters who'd move to Korea without getting paid far more than Kespa is offering.
So without legitimate alternatives and Doa getting shitlisted because of Kespa-OGN politics, we were bound to end up here. It's a shame it's taking so long for them to reach the conclusion that was inherently inevitable. Please resolve whatever conflicts and get Doa back, put whiplash next to him so he can level up (sorry monte, but I mean..) and we can all live happily ever after.
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On December 27 2012 04:28 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 04:28 zicoz wrote:
Really TB? You're a grown man, you're a caster, a team sponsor and you are the public face of the same team. Do you really think that your behavior in this thread reflects positive on any of the things you're affiliated with?
Not liking your behavior doesn't make me a hater or a flamer. You're right. Not contributing a single worthwhile sentence to this thread and focusing your efforts entirely on ad hominem attacks on me makes you a flamer.
Am i like the only one that ever agree's with TB's 100% truth in all situations, people are generally morons, trolls or just braindead deadbeats, with nothing to contribute.
But back to the main issues, KESPA, have had plenty of years to deal with this issue, doing research into setting up a SC2 scene for themselfs and provide english casters even if it was a minimal back-stage situation to get people trained up and get that duo partnership that people like to see, such as TB + apollo, day9 + Kaelaris, Tastosis, and all other good combinations.
I do agree with Tyler when he said kespa took far to long, this game is well over 2 years old now, and its far to late for kespa to be joining espeically if it does cause such issues like all the ones highlighted in these threads.
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On December 27 2012 12:28 Lumi wrote:
It amuses me that even people of some distinction and influence within this community care to weigh in with a dogmatic positivity toward the quality of these casters - openly disputing what viewer statistics, as well as the polling of opinions in this thread make undeniable. I think I have even picked up on (throughout this thread) the casters themselves being aware of their limitations and making no such denials? And then some of these people then disclose that they are not a viewer that cares especially about the casting part of their SC2 viewing experience.
Are you being argumentative for the sake of it, or do you have a very roundabout way of trying to support these casters where-in you mistakenly believe that being dishonestly positive about their current status and struggle is somehow conducive to their improvement?
We're trying to have an honest, mature discussion where critique is the very source of our opinions, and through that, our dialogue. If you can't, or would prefer not to abide such a conversation.. why are you injecting yourself?
With the poor quality of the casters being a matter actually settled, perhaps we might refocus more on the real issue here which gives birth to this circumstance: KeSPA!
Their feedback is not based on dogma. Please explain exactly what you mean by "postivity toward the casters" The rest of your post is just a very broad "fuck you" to everyone in this thread, You are playing backseat mod and I can't for the life of me figure out why you havn't been warned or banned.
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EPT
