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figq
12519 Posts
On December 02 2012 07:52 Siphyo wrote: It's a great graph that I used in another thread - thank you for making it! Could you tell us what software you use to produce it?My graph from liquipedia to support the OPs statement: ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/6c/GSLraceW.png) Personally, I don't think any balance-related conclusions should be drawn from this. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On December 02 2012 07:52 Siphyo wrote: My graph from liquipedia to support the OPs statement: Personally, I don't think any balance-related conclusions should be drawn from this. What we can conclude from this graph is that Koreans like to play Terran :p | ||
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Krychek
United States172 Posts
The fact that T was for long time unbalanced, or their partial dominance months/years ago, has nothing to do with race/unit imbalance right now. If a race or unit was op or up in the past, have nothing to do with the patch going right now. And for the record, in the T dominance, watching foreigner T's beating korean non-Ts was NOT common. Now watching foreigners Zs winning vs top non-z koreans it is indeed very common. | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Ollie
United States144 Posts
On December 02 2012 09:33 Inquisitor1323 wrote: wow cool story bro. Guess what, a lot of Koreans play terran. If a lot more people play one race than the other races, they are going to have more representation in the ro32. Why don't you stop presenting bullshit irrelevant counter points for an argument you know is true. Why is it okay to use this excuse for Terrans in GSL, but not for Zergs in every other tournament? Not really trying to argue, just playing devil's advocate. | ||
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Lunares
United States909 Posts
On December 02 2012 09:25 Krychek wrote: I want to point a basic flaw about the op. The fact that T was for long time unbalanced, or their partial dominance months/years ago, has nothing to do with race/unit imbalance right now. If a race or unit was op or up in the past, have nothing to do with the patch going right now. And for the record, in the T dominance, watching foreigner T's beating korean non-Ts was NOT common. Now watching foreigners Zs winning vs top non-z koreans it is indeed very common. The point is that regardless of "balance changes", the terran representation (and zerg and protoss) pretty much hasn't changed. If there really had been such a massive balance change so that zerg op was true (as people are crying so hard about right now) then we would expect the zerg representation in the Ro32 to go up. And it hasn't. It just goes to show how balanced the game really is and that we shouldn't be crying imba imba just because of a ZvZ finals. On December 02 2012 09:33 Inquisitor1323 wrote: wow cool story bro. Guess what, a lot of Koreans play terran. If a lot more people play one race than the other races, they are going to have more representation in the ro32. Why don't you stop presenting bullshit irrelevant counter points for an argument you know is true. Unless more koreans started playing terran in the last 5 months than at the start of the game, why would their representation stay the same if it really was "zerg op"? My point is that the game is mostly balanced. Any shifts are extremely minor and people need to stop whining about them. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On the other hand, if zergs got out of their denial and looked at this and saw that terrans won 44% of their games in GSL based tournaments in 2012, which includes the period before the patch, then maybe this baseless discussion would be over for good. ^Nope, it proves that more players capable of being progamers chose terran in korea, mostly because of the success terran had in early sc2 and the fact that their biggest idols in bw played terran. As you can see, my evaluation of the graph is just as valid as yours, pointless graph is pointless. | ||
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Walnuts
United States770 Posts
tasteless: he might go ultra... artosis: why would you get anything else besides BL/festor? tasteless: oh yeah, true... | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
On December 02 2012 09:40 Lunares wrote: The point is that regardless of "balance changes", the terran representation (and zerg and protoss) pretty much hasn't changed. If there really had been such a massive balance change so that zerg op was true (as people are crying so hard about right now) then we would expect the zerg representation in the Ro32 to go up. And it hasn't. It just goes to show how balanced the game really is and that we shouldn't be crying imba imba just because of a ZvZ finals. Unless more koreans started playing terran in the last 5 months than at the start of the game, why would their representation stay the same if it really was "zerg op"? My point is that the game is mostly balanced. Any shifts are extremely minor and people need to stop whining about them. Where have you been for the last 8 months? Look at the most recent IPL statistics, zerg winrate in ZvT was around 70%. Go watch some late-game TvZ or PvZ and then tell us about how the game is "mostly balanced." | ||
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Lunares
United States909 Posts
On December 02 2012 09:53 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Where have you been for the last 8 months? Look at the most recent IPL statistics, zerg winrate in ZvT was around 70%. Go watch some late-game TvZ or PvZ and then tell us about how the game is "mostly balanced." You are confirming my point. People are looking at single tournaments, or a single player on a hotstreak. One player tearing through a tournament can singlehandedly raise their races winrate for that tourny by quite a bit. I see players on both races winning in both late game TvZ and PvZ when I look objectively. Most people just focus on the games where their races lose. Talking about the WAY they lose is very different from being balanced, e.g. Z wins really easily late game when they get there with no pressure, whereas all the T/P wins are hard fought after keeping Z economy down. Even if that happens at 50/50 (e.g. balanced) it LOOKS unbalanced. When you look at the only consistent, continual tournament the race distribution hasn't changed. The tournament with the best of the best playing each other all the time. This despite all sorts of things, such as map pool changes, kespa players, patches, etc. It just goes to show how balanced the game is and how resilient balance is to being changed. Blizzard does need to alter the game to shake things up and make sure the metagame doesn't become stale/boring. But in terms of actual balance? It's fine. The fact that more terrans haven't dropped out of code S after 2 years of Code S shows that. | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
On December 02 2012 10:12 Lunares wrote: You are confirming my point. People are looking at single tournaments, or a single player on a hotstreak. One player tearing through a tournament can singlehandedly raise their races winrate for that tourny by quite a bit. I see players on both races winning in both late game TvZ and PvZ when I look objectively. Most people just focus on the games where their races lose. Talking about the WAY they lose is very different from being balanced, e.g. Z wins really easily late game when they get there with no pressure, whereas all the T/P wins are hard fought after keeping Z economy down. Even if that happens at 50/50 (e.g. balanced) it LOOKS unbalanced. When you look at the only consistent, continual tournament the race distribution hasn't changed. The tournament with the best of the best playing each other all the time. This despite all sorts of things, such as map pool changes, kespa players, patches, etc. It just goes to show how balanced the game is and how resilient balance is to being changed. Blizzard does need to alter the game to shake things up and make sure the metagame doesn't become stale/boring. But in terms of actual balance? It's fine. The fact that more terrans haven't dropped out of code S after 2 years of Code S shows that. so you really believe the game is balanced right now? | ||
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Fuzer
Finland266 Posts
On December 02 2012 07:35 arcane1129 wrote: EU ladder: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all KR: (zerg is lowest % in gm and masters actually) http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all Global: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Who are you trying to fool? ¨ what the heck are you talking about? http://starcraft2.fi/suomiladder_gm.php theres % of every ladder in world. | ||
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
Even if the matchup winrates are balanced, one of the biggest problems is that the use of Broodlords and fungals is -far- from difficult. Just compare fungals with storm. Storm you can move out of, but it's more powerful. Terran doesn't have as much trouble against it because you can micro against it. I wouldn't say landing a storm or a fungal is hard, but landing a storm that they cannot get out of (with forcefields or walls) does take SOME skill. Broodlords, well, require about 5 IQ to micro properly... The game shouldn't be as herpderp as BL/infestor is. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On December 02 2012 09:25 Krychek wrote: I want to point a basic flaw about the op. The fact that T was for long time unbalanced, or their partial dominance months/years ago, has nothing to do with race/unit imbalance right now. If a race or unit was op or up in the past, have nothing to do with the patch going right now. And for the record, in the T dominance, watching foreigner T's beating korean non-Ts was NOT common. Now watching foreigners Zs winning vs top non-z koreans it is indeed very common. When is the last time that foreign terrans had as good results against korean terrans as foreign zergs had against korean zergs this weekend? | ||
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On December 02 2012 11:36 Fuzer wrote: ¨ what the heck are you talking about? http://starcraft2.fi/suomiladder_gm.php theres % of every ladder in world. Did you just try to say that the links I posted to sc2ranks are wrong by linking to an obscure site that contains the same stats, only with less overall information (and not in English)? | ||
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Fuzer
Finland266 Posts
On December 02 2012 11:58 arcane1129 wrote: Did you just try to say that the links I posted to sc2ranks are wrong by linking to an obscure site that contains the same stats, only with less overall information (and not in English)? No, I posted a link which has top 100 top 50, which is not same as GM. Its not hard to get to GM but its hard to stay on top, and zerg dominance in the TOP is huge. | ||
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On December 02 2012 12:01 Fuzer wrote: No, I posted a link which has top 100 top 50, which is not same as GM. Its not hard to get to GM but its hard to stay on top, and zerg dominance in the TOP is huge. If you want to use a smaller sample size to represent only the very top players, why don't we just use code S? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On December 02 2012 12:05 arcane1129 wrote: If you want to use a smaller sample size to represent only the very top players, why don't we just use code S? 8 of 9 Zergs advanced from the first round. Your move. | ||
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On December 02 2012 12:06 Shiori wrote: 8 of 9 Zergs advanced from the first round. Your move. That's a terrible stat to use to prove anything to the point that it's laughable you even said it. I don't care about balance whining, I don't care about infestor changes, I don't care which race wins the most, and I don't care which race has the most representation. The only reason I responded initially was because someone was posting bullshit statistics, and I was then quoted by someone who again was trying to balance whine by limiting the sample size to an arbitrary amount to support his opinion. My point wasn't that we should use code S, it was that he wanted to use only the top end of GM to support his claims while ignoring larger (GM as a whole, masters league) and smaller pools (code A, code S, only event winners?). | ||
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1raxexpand
United States165 Posts
On December 02 2012 07:44 Lunares wrote: I feel like people are missing the point. The point is that throughout all the balance changes, metagame shifts, map changes, player changes, etc Terran has maintained it's status as the most players in the highest competitive league. As people have stated this is most likely due to more terran players. And that's my point. The game is NOT imbalanced. All the shifts have served to change the way the game is played. But it's not like all of a sudden the game is crazy imbalanced towards zerg. Even with the patch the overall race representation hasn't changed that much. Players adapt. This is just a reminder of how slowly player representation changes, even when massive changes (e.g. patch 1.4.3) occur. Just give the game time, enjoy what you watch, and wait for HotS if you are unhappy since there just isn't enough time to change the game by then (unless you just want to imbalance it completely, that's easy). So by your argument, terran was NEVER imba cause their Ro32 persentation has not change? Nice logic! | ||
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