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For 2012, MVP was the only terran to make a GSL Finals.
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All of these do show evidence that zergs are winning a lot of big tournaments and stuff.
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Honestly, this is all boxer's fault
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What's the point of this thread? Saying that because Terran have been the most represented in Ro32 in GSL, all Infestor-BroodLord-Queen synergy death ball problem in the late game in PvZ and TvZ becomes irrelevant? All this intense discussion for nothing?
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On December 02 2012 07:40 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 07:12 peia wrote:this is because earlier, terran WAS the strongest race, ´but until mid 2012 terran has got the weakest (imao) and because earlier there were so many terrans because it was the strongest race, there still is this big MASS of korean terrans, who are still pretty good at the game, they belong into code S, and if you look at EU ladder 10 % terran, 30 % toss 60 % zerg, and also at IPL the race distribution is a big big joke  10% Terran? I've never heard about this. From what I've seen on the EU ladder (1000 point masters), there is a pretty even distribution of the races. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allAs you can see, it seems pretty even overall. There is a slight bias towards Zerg in Grandmasters, but who's to say thats due to imbalance? As someone who played on NA and now plays on EU regularly, I can say that the NA ladder is really Zerg biased, but the EU ladder is surprisingly balanced in terms of race distribution. Maybe you have bad luck, I don't know.
101 zergs to 54 terrans is only a slight bias? This is EU, of course.
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I sometimes wonder if by now all balance whine bullshit should get an own subforum. Seriously guys, the game might not be 100% perfect but this amount of crying is absolutely too much.
Now to stay on topic: Doesn't surprise me at all about the distribution if you look who actually plays Code S. Most of the Terrans are around since quite some time and absolute high caliber players.
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On December 02 2012 12:34 Pimpmuckl wrote: I sometimes wonder if by now all balance whine bullshit should get an own subforum. Seriously guys, the game might not be 100% perfect but this amount of crying is absolutely too much.
Now to stay on topic: Doesn't surprise me at all about the distribution if you look who actually plays Code S. Most of the Terrans are around since quite some time and absolute high caliber players. Saying the game isnt 100% is a serious understatment. I say it deserves every single whine it is getting.
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On December 02 2012 07:14 PixelNite wrote: Terran is probably the most represented race among the pros in Korea, and also a lot of those terrans are just top players. Not sure if this is relevant. Not sure if this is true or not. I did a quick look over the ESF teams (not the entirety of the Korean scene, but the largest and most important part and the majority of GSL players) and got these stats:
Terran: 26 Protoss: 26 Zerg: 24
So T and P are tied for 1st place, but really they're all close enough that we can basically ignore the difference.
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On December 02 2012 07:15 EU.Pink wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 07:12 peia wrote:this is because earlier, terran WAS the strongest race, ´but until mid 2012 terran has got the weakest (imao) and because earlier there were so many terrans because it was the strongest race, there still is this big MASS of korean terrans, who are still pretty good at the game, they belong into code S, and if you look at EU ladder 10 % terran, 30 % toss 60 % zerg, and also at IPL the race distribution is a big big joke  nice facts about EU ladder bro, can i see source?
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all
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all you have to do is watch a game and see how many expansions are lost / denied, workers killed, structures destroyed - and to see one particular race still win the game without any huge mistakes given by the opponent.
(also the fact that mvp hasn't won every game is proof that the game is imbalanced)
win rates and stats don't signify much.you can draw a limited conclusion from it. but if a player whom is 70% better, has only a win rate of 50%. That's fair, because the win-rates are even?......lol
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On December 02 2012 12:24 HeeroFX wrote:All of these do show evidence that zergs are winning a lot of big tournaments and stuff.
If you read the graphs correctly, they show just how strong Zerg is. It is not surprising that they have as much of a backlash as Terran did when Terran was stupidly strong. I'm waiting for when Toss is the same way and Seed and MC and Squirtle get hated on.
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On December 02 2012 13:12 uNhoLeee wrote: all you have to do is watch a game and see how many expansions are lost / denied, workers killed, structures destroyed - and to see one particular race still win the game without any huge mistakes given by the opponent.
(also the fact that mvp hasn't won every game is proof that the game is imbalanced)
win rates and stats don't signify much.you can draw a limited conclusion from it. but if a player whom is 70% better, has only a win rate of 50%. That's fair, because the win-rates are even?......lol
You just made my sig, congrats
anyway, to be more to the point, yeah, winrates don't really mean too much. if zergs that aren't as good as their T/P opponents are getting into tournaments and losing half their games, that doesn't mean necessarily mean it's balanced.
if we can go on a wild conjecture train for a little while, let's pretend there's a fourth race where anybody who's diamond or better can take half of their games against GM opponents, but there isn't too much of a skill difference between the shitty players of said race and the people who are actually good. tournaments would suddenly fill with players of this fourth race, and winrates would be 50%, but it sure as hell wouldn't be balanced.
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I think we should focus less on who is winning were and what race is winning more and on why it is happening. I think everyone, including myself feel that the infestor needs some work. Imbalance or not its a bad unit.. or rather fungal is a bad ability. It requires some skill to use but its way to unforgiving to get caught in.
I cant for my life understand why blizzard doesnt just try a small change here and there. I dont think they should do anything drastic in WoL.. save that for HoTS BUT tweak the numbers a bit here and there. say fungals does 10-20% less damage. Say it stuns for 3s instead of 4, say it costs 100energy. Its pretty obvious its a bit to good as of now so why not just try and nerf it a bit.
Then to clarify, if one unit is a bit to good doesnt make an entire race OP. The game is alot more complex then this. But now Z winratios has been pretty damn high for a long time in the lategame so I really feel they should atleast try something.
But, there is nothing worse then unconstructive balance whine likek "zerg OP!!" etc. It helps nothing and only makes people less keen to post seriously on these forums. In all honesty, we had 2 terrans in the semis in GSL S5 so its not THAT critical even if I do think there is some unbalance.. note THINK, its not an exact science so dont act like you know shit you dont.
And yes, im a zerg.
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On December 02 2012 13:12 uNhoLeee wrote: all you have to do is watch a game and see how many expansions are lost / denied, workers killed, structures destroyed - and to see one particular race still win the game without any huge mistakes given by the opponent.
(also the fact that mvp hasn't won every game is proof that the game is imbalanced)
win rates and stats don't signify much.you can draw a limited conclusion from it. but if a player whom is 70% better, has only a win rate of 50%. That's fair, because the win-rates are even?......lol
Dont pretend that you can judge a players skill. There is so much that determines the skill that noone can put a number on it so how in gods name do you know if someone is 70% better? Furthermore the skillsets are so different between the races. While Terrans skillset are more towards multitasking and Fancy Micro(splitting mostly vs Z atleast) Zergs is way more about gamesense, superb mechanics and good engagements by flanking etc. Both races ofc need all of this but they need more of different things. This leads to Terrans gameplay looking alot more fancy then zergs from time to time but keeping up with injects during pressure sitatuions is extremly hard f.ex.
TLDR: Even implying that you can give a player a certain level of skill looking at nonmirrors is just silly.. so different skillsets are needed
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On December 02 2012 13:25 doffe wrote: I think we should focus less on who is winning were and what race is winning more and on why it is happening. I think everyone, including myself feel that the infestor needs some work. Imbalance or not its a bad unit.. or rather fungal is a bad ability. It requires some skill to use but its way to unforgiving to get caught in.
I cant for my life understand why blizzard doesnt just try a small change here and there. I dont think they should do anything drastic in WoL.. save that for HoTS BUT tweak the numbers a bit here and there. say fungals does 10-20% less damage. Say it stuns for 3s instead of 4, say it costs 100energy. Its pretty obvious its a bit to good as of now so why not just try and nerf it a bit.
Then to clarify, if one unit is a bit to good doesnt make an entire race OP. The game is alot more complex then this. But now Z winratios has been pretty damn high for a long time in the lategame so I really feel they should atleast try something.
But, there is nothing worse then unconstructive balance whine likek "zerg OP!!" etc. It helps nothing and only makes people less keen to post seriously on these forums. In all honesty, we had 2 terrans in the semis in GSL S5 so its not THAT critical even if I do think there is some unbalance.. note THINK, its not an exact science so dont act like you know shit you dont.
And yes, im a zerg.
Problem is many constructive posts and threads have been made. But it seems Blizzard's response is "At the highest level, everything is balanced" and "We will look at infestors by changing the HP of infestor eggs and test this on Antiga without force cross spawns and gold mineral patches". If they are going to balance for the top level players, why aren't they using maps being played at the top level?
The unconstructive whines are basically just frustration at the situation.
Also, the skill level of the top players are so close that even 1 unit being OP can make a huge difference. Thors, ghosts, BF hellions were all nerfed very quickly once they were shown to be OP.
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Also, the skill level of the top players are so close that even 1 unit being OP can make a huge difference. Thors, ghosts, BF hellions were all nerfed very quickly once they were shown to be OP.
Don't forget the Khaydarin Amulet removal, it's one of the most important "holy fuck this unit is borked" nerfs Blizzard made.
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he's talking about 2012 mate. so you're wrong.
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If anything, your post argues that they SHOULD do drastic changes asap. GSL Code S was terran favoured and Blizzard nerfed Terran like there was no freaking tomorrow, and the sky never fell, Terran just isn't as dominant anymore. They fucking removed Khydarin amulet because they felt HTs were too strong. Yet protoss is doing fine today in some tournaments here and there.
A real infestor nerf would be a hard blow for Zerg at first, but I'm sure they'll adapt to not being unbeatable just because the ingame clock reached 25minutes. They'd have to rely on outplaying their opponent, rather than spamming fungal growth and ITs while unreachable broodlords chews thru the opponent's army which might be hard at first, but I'm sure they'll adapt with time.
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On December 02 2012 13:45 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 13:25 doffe wrote: I think we should focus less on who is winning were and what race is winning more and on why it is happening. I think everyone, including myself feel that the infestor needs some work. Imbalance or not its a bad unit.. or rather fungal is a bad ability. It requires some skill to use but its way to unforgiving to get caught in.
I cant for my life understand why blizzard doesnt just try a small change here and there. I dont think they should do anything drastic in WoL.. save that for HoTS BUT tweak the numbers a bit here and there. say fungals does 10-20% less damage. Say it stuns for 3s instead of 4, say it costs 100energy. Its pretty obvious its a bit to good as of now so why not just try and nerf it a bit.
Then to clarify, if one unit is a bit to good doesnt make an entire race OP. The game is alot more complex then this. But now Z winratios has been pretty damn high for a long time in the lategame so I really feel they should atleast try something.
But, there is nothing worse then unconstructive balance whine likek "zerg OP!!" etc. It helps nothing and only makes people less keen to post seriously on these forums. In all honesty, we had 2 terrans in the semis in GSL S5 so its not THAT critical even if I do think there is some unbalance.. note THINK, its not an exact science so dont act like you know shit you dont.
And yes, im a zerg. Problem is many constructive posts and threads have been made. But it seems Blizzard's response is "At the highest level, everything is balanced" and "We will look at infestors by changing the HP of infestor eggs and test this on Antiga without force cross spawns and gold mineral patches". If they are going to balance for the top level players, why aren't they using maps being played at the top level? The unconstructive whines are basically just frustration at the situation. Also, the skill level of the top players are so close that even 1 unit being OP can make a huge difference. Thors, ghosts, BF hellions were all nerfed very quickly once they were shown to be OP.
Im not saying that the infestor doesnt make a huge difference, it was more a general thought, that one unit doesnt make a race op even though it obviously can do just that. If Zerg is OP Im not the person to judge, I think the infestor itself is broken though but who is to s ay what will happen if its altered. Zerg might find other ways to be "op" or simply go down to nothing. Theres a beauty in imbalance though.. well, I dont like imbalance but it has made the victories so much sweeter from time to time. Never have I been so happy as when Fruitdealer actually won the first GSL when zerg was pretty much considered UP by all and Lost temple still was in the map pool :D (thor/tank drops anyone?).
Dont get me wrong, I want balance :p. And I more of all want lategame balance. Im ok with races being stronger at different points of the game aslong as LATEGAME isnt one of those points.
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