EPTEvery GSL event has had Ro32 terran plurality - Page 6
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
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Domus
510 Posts
On December 02 2012 20:22 GolemMadness wrote: This fails to take into account the fact that old results don't mean so much since the game has developed a lot since then and there have been patches; nor does it include the race percentages in later rounds. The amount of terrans in the Ro32 doesn't mean so much if most of them are getting knocked out there. Yeah, these statistics say very little about the current balance of SC2. I don't think many people will deny that there was a long period that terran was dominating. I think the real problem is that Blizzard has been unable to get it truly balanced. It should not be like, well, now terran has had its share of dominating now it is time to give Zerg a year of domination just so the historical stats show an equal win distribution  .On the other hand, I also don't think that Terran is that much weaker than Zerg and once the Terran spellcasters are a bit stronger things should be fine. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
On December 02 2012 07:18 SKDN wrote: I believe his race distribution is imaginary if you want source look at http://www.sc2ranks.com/ I'm super sleepy, but I counted 47 Terrans in the top 217* on the EU ladder according to sc2ranks. ~21.6% T | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 02 2012 20:34 Avi-Love wrote: Honestly, and I'm sorry that this is a bit off topic, but I think that the root of almost all complaints and/or whining about racial imbalance since the release of sc1 has been people trying to find ways of justifying their losses in tournaments, on the ladder, and their own personal ranks; it applies to all races, and all matchup - at the end of the day, if two terran players make it to the top 4 of a GSL, there's no excuse for anyone to lose tvz on the ladder, even if it's "grandmaster" level - but unfortunately people have a very hard time accepting that fact, and they would rather spend their energy complaining, and creating a mental barrier for themselves getting into the awful mindset of "what's the point, I can't overcome this imbalance anyway!". It makes me feel rather morose. This is BS. Competitive games should try to be balanced at ALL skill levels. Yes, in theory, this is not possible to achieve but it should always be the end goal. However, the priority should be at the highest levels. Just because 2 terrans made top 4 in GSL doesn't make the game balance. If this was the case, then we need to revert back the Queen patch because DRG was still winning without it, right? I am sure all the zergs would be fine with that here. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 02 2012 20:29 Joedaddy wrote: I always thought that the general consensus was Terran is fairly balanced at the highest level (aka: Terran is fine if you're a Code S korean). I admit I haven't been playing/following the scene as closely the last few months, but has this changed? I wonder, what the race representation looks like in other tournaments, leagues, and ladders? Pretty much this. Korean pro scene was for long time only place where Terran was doing ok, and only place whre Zerg did not dominate. Its however changing lately so its rason to concern since outside of Korea we have Zerg domination for some time now. | ||
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Destroyr
Germany299 Posts
On December 02 2012 20:42 vthree wrote: This is BS. Competitive games should try to be balanced at ALL skill levels. Yes, in theory, this is not possible to achieve but it should always be the end goal. However, the priority should be at the highest levels. Just because 2 terrans made top 4 in GSL doesn't make the game balance. If this was the case, then we need to revert back the Queen patch because DRG was still winning without it, right? I am sure all the zergs would be fine with that here. It's very simple the way this game is designed lets to certain developements in the game. The thing that is not balanced if you want to use this word is the difference in unit efficiency and the way dmg is dealed to armies. For example the infestor may be in certain situations over the top in this categorie which was before that inherent in marines. If you look at tournaments and the way people were playing and also wining you can see the dominance of units like this and that the player falls or wins with them. This doesn't mean that there are no other strategies. You can use infestors later. And you have to save energy. Also every game has a divergence in the way it developes but I think one might argue that a infestor with fungal and infested terrans if babysitted correctly has the ability to make you pay LOT more minerals and gas than his original unit cost. This lets to the situation which I observe very often in games: If you get to be behind in supply as a terran versus a zerg its a got indicator were the game is heading because you can't build a cheaper army than the zerg anymore. Also marines seem to be to strong in the first place. If core units like them are so dominant in all matchups and they are the highest dps unit in the game and cheap other races have to do something "terrible terrible" demaging to ignore this unit efficiency. Without the infestor zvt might still be terran favored as it has been before. This might also be the reason for blizzard not patching. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3485 Posts
It takes an amount of time for the GSL format to rotate players out. First more Zergs will get into Code A, then they will eventually get to Code S. | ||
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bellsNkeys
United States52 Posts
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Lunares
United States909 Posts
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Ryuhou)aS(
United States1174 Posts
On December 03 2012 01:07 bellsNkeys wrote: The sample size of only Code S players or even all the top players in general is too small to determine balance off of. It's really not far fetched to say Terran isn't OP even if 20 of the 32 Code S players play T every season because 32 is a VERY small sample size and the format of the GSL makes it difficult for new players to get into. Over the course of all SC2 players, skill is pretty evenly distributed and balance changes should be made according to that theory. and yet blizzard plans to nerf infestors based on the "professional level of play". TL source I've always felt that the majority (and i mean more than 50%) of balance complaints are from people that just need to practice more and get better themselves. People blame their losses on the other player too much. I myself have been guilty of this (particularly vs scv marine all-ins which don't feel like all ins b/c they have mules, or cannon rushes ..b/c it's just annoying) but in the end I feel like I should be able to stop these strats with better personal play. on topic: It's a well known fact that the majority of Koreans play terran. Apparently it's the "in" thing to defend the human race. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
It's due to if you have great mechanics (macro and micro) you can play Terran to a great level, purely on that alone. MVP has great mechanics and even better game sense, the reason he has been the top Terran for such a long time. Thanks for the graph! Always good looking at these. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
the koreans are up to this multitasking, everyone else isn't. thus terran in korea dominates, while it's too hard for anyone outside of korea | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
2. it is logical to assume that since every season had more terrans, terrans would win more gsl's 3. blizzard looks at numbers and sees too many terrans winning gsl championships so they nerf regularly 4. terran is still the most played race in gsl but has worst chances of winning a championship because blizzard balances around how many times did certain race win a championship but not around all races having equal chances to win On January 11 2013 20:52 IMPrime wrote: terran allows for the most multitasking the koreans are up to this multitasking, everyone else isn't. thus terran in korea dominates, while it's too hard for anyone outside of korea http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3(2)&mapid=0 67% for zerg in gsl. Not sure if this is just for the infamous patch 1.4.3.2. or stats from that patch until today. However if you go patch by patch and then devide the number for every single patch (there are records under 5 patches) it turns out zerg has 60% win rate over terran since patch 1.4.3.2. to patch 1.5.3.2. So it is somewhere between 60-67% win rate for zerg in gsl. | ||
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On December 02 2012 20:38 Joedaddy wrote: I'm super sleepy, but I counted 47 Terrans in the top 217* on the EU ladder according to sc2ranks. ~21.6% T Really? I count 27 in gm... that's like 13.5%. | ||
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Ryuhou)aS(
United States1174 Posts
On January 11 2013 21:02 Qwerty85 wrote: 1. terran is the most played race among top Koreans so terran was always most represented. 2. it is logical to assume that since every season had more terrans, terrans would win more gsl's 3. blizzard looks at numbers and sees too many terrans winning gsl championships so they nerf regularly 4. terran is still the most played race in gsl but has worst chances of winning a championship because blizzard balances around how many times did certain race win a championship but not around all races having equal chances to win you know this b/c you're privy to blizzards balance teams discussions right? don't talk like you know what blizzard is thinking, this sort of thing annoys me. Unless you're a part of the blizzard team (which you're not...and if you are why the hell would you post here about something like this?) you don't know. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On January 11 2013 21:08 Ryuhou)aS( wrote: you know this b/c you're privy to blizzards balance teams discussions right? don't talk like you know what blizzard is thinking, this sort of thing annoys me. Unless you're a part of the blizzard team (which you're not...and if you are why the hell would you post here about something like this?) you don't know. They have stated many times in interviewes and situation reports that they actually look at x number of tournament wins per race. You would often see statements like that. I am not saying this is the only fact they use to balance the game but it sure is one that is important to them (since they mentioned it). In terms of global tournament wins overall, we’re seeing zerg win the most tournaments, whereas in Korea terran is winning the most with zerg not being far behind This is from the Questions from the community in Jan 2012. I am putting it here as an example that they actually count x number of wins (not representation) but wins in a tournament. So even though at Jan 2012 zerg were winning most tournaments outside Korea and being close 2nd in Korea, Blizzard kept nerfing terran (all the way to that infamous patch 1.4.3.2.) until zergs started winning more in Korea even though they were less represented in every season of gsl. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
Now we see exact opposite. Even though terrans are still most represented (they get eliminated in code S then get back through code A and Up&down), they have lowest chances of winning 1st place in gsl. | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
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Ryuhou)aS(
United States1174 Posts
David Kim has ALSO said this when he talked about balance in this post on battle.net's forums. Adjusted ratings: (...) Please note that the way we do this calculation factors out player skill. That’s good for us because, while we like seeing very solid results at the pro level, we are also always working towards a balanced experience across all skill levels. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/6c/GSLraceW.png)
