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On November 10 2017 08:40 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I would like to read some of these sexual assault cases against men who went for a kiss on the first date and were rejected. id like to read about some "sexual assault cases" agains louis ck. how about that? i guess since he doesnt have any "cases" pending against him hes living the high life
Twitter or Tumblr threads on the public pillorying of committers of the dreaded failed first date kiss are perfectly acceptable alternatives.
(actually no please don't link to Twitter or Tumblr threads)
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These discussions about contest and sexual harassment always get weirdly aggressive.
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United States42784 Posts
On November 10 2017 08:41 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:39 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:37 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. actually it is pretty complex, like most human interaction. courtship in particular is some of the most complex phenomena out there. Achieving it without assaulting anyone is super easy. being a lifelong virgin is pretty easy too. drone makes the case well
In my experience the correlation with virginity tends to be the online feminism hating incel type, not the woke consent asking type. Girls who know you care about consent are down with kinkier shit.
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I've dated girls who have had the dreaded unwanted first kiss that is totally sexual assault. But again, it involved tongue and failed attempts to grope them too.
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United States42784 Posts
On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault.
On dates? Between couples? If you kissed me and tried to grab my dick that'd be very different than if a girl I was dating did. Again, context. I shouldn't have to keep explaining this. It's not the act, it's the context.
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On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault.
The convo was about first date kisses, not "go up to random people and try kissing/groping them". Because, yeah, going up to people you barely know and randomly doing things to them would generally fall under assault of some kind.
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On November 10 2017 08:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:41 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:39 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:37 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. actually it is pretty complex, like most human interaction. courtship in particular is some of the most complex phenomena out there. Achieving it without assaulting anyone is super easy. being a lifelong virgin is pretty easy too. drone makes the case well In my experience the correlation with virginity tends to be the online feminism hating incel type, not the woke consent asking type. Girls who know you care about consent are down with kinkier shit.
very true. theres also a correlation between being the woke consent type and putting in the work to learn how dynamic human interaction works. surely you dont think everyone who is woke now has never made a mistake and was born woke?
btw lets not stray too far from the central question here about whether american society is trending towrd requiring explicit consent. thats not necessarily bad but may kill "romance"
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On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table.
Or, you know, take a risk that you've interpreted the signals correctly (or the mix of chemical, emotional and physical language; the sexual tension) and go for it. There are plenty of people that don't mind someone taking charge there are plenty of people that want their consent card being checked and there are plenty of people in between and situations occurring where it's not that easy if you take charge or ask for consent. But to be honest, if you feel like you want to kiss someone and you think it's the moment for it, why not? The worst that should happen is the person pulling back, putting up a "what the fuck" face and asking why the fuck you kissed her. After you've explained it, she'll probably explain to you there was nothing going on and that's where you walk off with your tail between your legs, having (hopefully) learnt from the situation.
If taking charge in a first kiss initiation situation where you think you understand the emotional and physical situation is debate for potential sexual harassment, then we'll just end up in a sterile clinicosocial setting where every interaction is to be proceeded by both parties signing a contract.
Are we so far removed from the interaction between two individuals that we can't interpret it anymore?
Edit: I consider touching a line crossed much more harshly than kissing. Touching can be completely out of the blue and can catch you very off guard (can be done very stealthily as well); with kissing, you literally need to be in front of their face and there's a whole build up (normally) to it.
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Norway28674 Posts
On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table.
I think asking the literal question 'can I kiss you now' is significantly more awkward than the (very small, now that I'm an adult, but big when I was a teenager) chance that I have misinterpreted 3 hours of clues as to whether or not it's fine for me to move in for a kiss.
To be clear, my point of view on all of this is that aside from one incident from the UK parliament or whatever, pretty much none of the cases to reach publicity following #metoo have been non-incidents. The low end has been scummy behavior that must be discouraged. But 'sexual exploration between teenagers or adults' is something that is bound to have a bunch of semi-gray areas. I don't accept 'ask for verbal consent before you proceed with anything', that just.. it sounds so dull and boring, and I'm not saying that because I really like doing stuff girls wouldn't consent to, but because I like my romance to be passionate as hell and pausing to speak would disrupt that.  And my experience, although I've been a married man for like 8 years so most of this is based on events in the long-long ago, is that girls feel that way too. There's nothing hotter than both of you reaching the logical conclusion of your non-verbal communication of smiles, winks and light touches at the same time and just fucking going at each other. The "movement for explicit consent before every action" to me feels like the antithesis of this type of unbridled passion, and giving yourself into this type of unbridled passion is the most fun being human ever is.
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On November 10 2017 08:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:
[quote]
Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault. The convo was about first date kisses, not "go up to random people and try kissing/groping them". Because, yeah, going up to people you barely know and randomly doing things to them would generally fall under assault of some kind.
No problem here. I just want to make sure people know that quotes on percentage of women that have been sexually assaulted usually include all unwanted kisses and touching. This is despite my agreement with him that it “usually isn’t sexual assault,” and it contributes to the devaluing of the term in general.
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On November 10 2017 08:49 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:44 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:39 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:37 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. actually it is pretty complex, like most human interaction. courtship in particular is some of the most complex phenomena out there. Achieving it without assaulting anyone is super easy. being a lifelong virgin is pretty easy too. drone makes the case well In my experience the correlation with virginity tends to be the online feminism hating incel type, not the woke consent asking type. Girls who know you care about consent are down with kinkier shit. very true. theres also a correlation between being the woke consent type and putting in the work to learn how dynamic human interaction works. surely you dont think everyone who is woke now has never made a mistake and was born woke? btw lets not stray too far from the central question here about whether american society is trending towrd requiring explicit consent. thats not necessarily bad but may kill "romance"
I'd say society in general is just trending toward killing romance. All the nuances to the romance are just part-and-parcel.
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United States42784 Posts
On November 10 2017 08:49 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:44 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:39 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:37 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. actually it is pretty complex, like most human interaction. courtship in particular is some of the most complex phenomena out there. Achieving it without assaulting anyone is super easy. being a lifelong virgin is pretty easy too. drone makes the case well In my experience the correlation with virginity tends to be the online feminism hating incel type, not the woke consent asking type. Girls who know you care about consent are down with kinkier shit. very true. theres also a correlation between being the woke consent type and putting in the work to learn how dynamic human interaction works. surely you dont think everyone who is woke now has never made a mistake and was born woke? btw lets not stray too far from the central question here about whether american society is trending towrd requiring explicit consent. thats not necessarily bad but may kill "romance"
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it".
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On November 10 2017 08:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:
[quote]
i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing
to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally.
im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself
anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . .
I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault. The convo was about first date kisses, not "go up to random people and try kissing/groping them". Because, yeah, going up to people you barely know and randomly doing things to them would generally fall under assault of some kind. No problem here. I just want to make sure people know that quotes on percentage of women that have been sexually assaulted usually include all unwanted kisses and touching. This is despite my agreement with him that it “usually isn’t sexual assault,” and it contributes to the devaluing of the term in general.
Assault in general is a term that encompasses a lot of actions, so really the issue is that the word has been so valued in the first place.
The word in military context is really the only place where it always denotes a severe action.
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On November 10 2017 08:30 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:00 Plansix wrote:
First dates and first attempts as physical affection are already super awkward. Asking "Is this cool?" isn't going move the needle. Entirely disagreed. 18 year old me would entirely agree, because back then I didn't know how to interpret signals. But then I grew older, got more experience, and eventually I figured out what degree of smiles and eye contact means 'kiss me, you fool'. Explicitly asking would from my own perspective AND from the perspective of girls I've specifically asked about this, ruin the moment. I think it's a really good thing that I wasn't charged with sexual assault that one time I, as an 18 year old, wrongly interpreted the situation and tried to kiss my classmate when we were dancing in a club. Because it wasn't - and when she pulled away her head and asked what are you doing? and I sheepishly answered 'nevermind nothing', that was the end of it, and I learned from the experience. Kids need to be allowed to make these kinds of mistakes. Yes, overall, a more consent based culture is an improvement, but not every aspect of the 'courtship-experience' has to involve the signing of contracts ensuring no miscommunication at any point has taken place. Yes, guys shouldn't badger women to sleep with them until they give in, they shouldn't assume it's fair game to grope her ass because she smiled to you, etc.. And I agree that while this should be common sense, a scarily large amount of guys seemingly don't really get it. But it's not the end of the world if you're a guy and you have a crush on a girl and she likes you as a friend and you try to initiate light physical contact, like you're in high school and you've spent 6 hours partying and then you walk her home and when she moves in for a hug, you move in for a kiss, she's lik wtf dude. That shit is gonna be awkward, but there's no point in making a bigger deal out of it than it is - you misinterpreted a signal. It's not a big deal.
On November 10 2017 08:52 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. I think asking the literal question 'can I kiss you now' is significantly more awkward than the (very small, now that I'm an adult, but big when I was a teenager) chance that I have misinterpreted 3 hours of clues as to whether or not it's fine for me to move in for a kiss. To be clear, my point of view on all of this is that aside from one incident from the UK parliament or whatever, pretty much none of the cases to reach publicity following #metoo have been non-incidents. The low end has been scummy behavior that must be discouraged. But 'sexual exploration between teenagers or adults' is something that is bound to have a bunch of semi-gray areas. I don't accept 'ask for verbal consent before you proceed with anything', that just.. it sounds so dull and boring, and I'm not saying that because I really like doing stuff girls wouldn't consent to, but because I like my romance to be passionate as hell and pausing to speak would disrupt that. And my experience, although I've been a married man for like 8 years so most of this is based on events in the long-long ago, is that girls feel that way too. There's nothing hotter than both of you reaching the logical conclusion of your non-verbal communication of smiles, winks and light touches at the same time and just fucking going at each other. The "movement for explicit consent before every action" to me feels like the antithesis of this type of unbridled passion, and giving yourself into this type of unbridled passion is the most fun being human ever is.
I agree. What you describe is a normal process and shouldn’t be criminalized or stigmatized. I have a problem when people talk about campus sexual assault epidemics and include nonverbal (mis)communication prior to a first kiss. The related topic is “yes means yes” discussed provisions on affirmative verbal consent. So much of this is nonverbal and lately laws have been too broad on putting people in legal jeopardy for going in for the kiss.
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On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault.
Context context context. All these attempts to use empuiric data to extrapolate any rules except a) if you're not sure, ask and b) reflect on your actions and words from time to time and see how they affect those around you are completely pointless.
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On November 10 2017 08:49 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:44 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:39 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 08:37 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. actually it is pretty complex, like most human interaction. courtship in particular is some of the most complex phenomena out there. Achieving it without assaulting anyone is super easy. being a lifelong virgin is pretty easy too. drone makes the case well In my experience the correlation with virginity tends to be the online feminism hating incel type, not the woke consent asking type. Girls who know you care about consent are down with kinkier shit. very true. theres also a correlation between being the woke consent type and putting in the work to learn how dynamic human interaction works. surely you dont think everyone who is woke now has never made a mistake and was born woke? btw lets not stray too far from the central question here about whether american society is trending towrd requiring explicit consent. thats not necessarily bad but may kill "romance"
Implying that 'romance' only exists on a first date? These questions mostly concern the interaction between strangers, people in relationship or people who have dated a few times have figured that stuff out. Being non-romantic or cautious on a first date doesn't seem that relevant overall.
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On November 10 2017 08:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:52 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later.
Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine.
Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault. The convo was about first date kisses, not "go up to random people and try kissing/groping them". Because, yeah, going up to people you barely know and randomly doing things to them would generally fall under assault of some kind. No problem here. I just want to make sure people know that quotes on percentage of women that have been sexually assaulted usually include all unwanted kisses and touching. This is despite my agreement with him that it “usually isn’t sexual assault,” and it contributes to the devaluing of the term in general. Assault in general is a term that encompasses a lot of actions, so really the issue is that the word has been so valued in the first place. The word in military context is really the only place where it always denotes a severe action.
No problem here in general. Specifically, I have a problem with sensationalist headlines like “1 in 5 women sexually assaulted in college” when you would agree much of it is tame and not in need of administration/law enforcement crackdowns. I figure people are generally aware at how much gets thrown under the ‘assault’ hood these days.
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United States42784 Posts
On November 10 2017 08:52 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
This entire process is not that complex. When women agree to date men, there is this assumption that making out is a possible outcome. It is not awkward to double check to make sure it's still on the table. I think asking the literal question 'can I kiss you now' is significantly more awkward than the (very small, now that I'm an adult, but big when I was a teenager) chance that I have misinterpreted 3 hours of clues as to whether or not it's fine for me to move in for a kiss. To be clear, my point of view on all of this is that aside from one incident from the UK parliament or whatever, pretty much none of the cases to reach publicity following #metoo have been non-incidents. The low end has been scummy behavior that must be discouraged. But 'sexual exploration between teenagers or adults' is something that is bound to have a bunch of semi-gray areas. I don't accept 'ask for verbal consent before you proceed with anything', that just.. it sounds so dull and boring, and I'm not saying that because I really like doing stuff girls wouldn't consent to, but because I like my romance to be passionate as hell and pausing to speak would disrupt that. And my experience, although I've been a married man for like 8 years so most of this is based on events in the long-long ago, is that girls feel that way too. There's nothing hotter than both of you reaching the logical conclusion of your non-verbal communication of smiles, winks and light touches at the same time and just fucking going at each other. The "movement for explicit consent before every action" to me feels like the antithesis of this type of unbridled passion, and giving yourself into this type of unbridled passion is the most fun being human ever is.
It's really not two people just fucking going at each other that the consent proponents are trying to police. It's the predators who maintain that what they do is no different to two people who are into each other and that they make honest mistakes.
Any situation in which I would decide to get naked and start masturbating would probably be one where I wouldn't need to ask for explicit consent because I can tell when that is and is not an appropriate thing to be doing. However apparently Louis CK cannot tell when that's okay so he needs to start asking for consent (and actually waiting for a "yes"). The thing is though, I'm pretty sure he can tell the difference.
The predators insist that there is this super blurred line and that what they do is the same as what everyone else does and if we start policing them then everyone has to be policed. It really doesn't work that way though. The situations where they should have asked for consent are generally situations where they knew damn well they wouldn't have consent.
The only people who would have to follow the rules all the time are the people who would abuse it if there weren't rules. That isn't most of us. It's the same as anything else, there's always one fucktard who makes zoos have to put signs out saying "do not feed LSD to the chimpanzees".
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On November 10 2017 08:55 KwarK wrote:
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it".
I also don't see the conflict between inferring consent from body language and emotional connection either though. It might end up in a few more cases of misinterpretation, but that'll make you learn more about what's allowed and not in the future.
We're rapidly approaching a generation where literally everything is turned into cookie cutter bullshit.
Want a kiss? Ask politely for it if you can have a kiss.
Want to move from A->B in a video game? Perhaps this path that we've highlighted might lead you to where you want to go.
Want to solve this riddle? Perhaps try this mechanic.
Everything is slowly getting a tutorial on how to do it and it's completely deconstructing the human experience imo. There's no more room for exploring and curiosity and failure. It all needs to be streamlined and, like I've said before, sterile.
Edit: and I don't even understand why you'd use Fifty Shades of Grey as an example here, this and other erotica (which are procuded en masse) are predominantly read by women.
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EPT
