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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:55 KwarK wrote:
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it". I also don't see the conflict between inferring consent from body language and emotional connection either though. It might end up in a few more cases of misinterpretation, but that'll make you learn more about what's allowed and not in the future. We're rapidly approaching a generation where literally everything is turned into cookie cutter bullshit. Want a kiss? Ask politely for it if you can have a kiss. Want to move from A->B in a video game? Perhaps this path that we've highlighted might lead you to where you want to go. Want to solve this riddle? Perhaps try this mechanic. Everything is slowly getting a tutorial on how to do it and it's completely deconstructing the human experience imo. There's no more room for exploring and curiosity and failure. It all needs to be streamlined and, like I've said before, sterile.
I'm not saying you have to ask before everything, quite the opposite, you can absolutely accept non verbal cues. But if you're not getting non verbal cues that support your theory that she wants it, or the non verbal cues you're getting are negative, don't go "she hasn't preemptively given me a list of what she doesn't consent to so technically she hasn't said no" and do the thing anyway.
Honestly to me this comes down to nothing more than common sense. The whole consent vs romance thing is a false conflict.
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On November 10 2017 09:04 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 10 2017 08:52 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them.
If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify.
Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask.
I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault. The convo was about first date kisses, not "go up to random people and try kissing/groping them". Because, yeah, going up to people you barely know and randomly doing things to them would generally fall under assault of some kind. No problem here. I just want to make sure people know that quotes on percentage of women that have been sexually assaulted usually include all unwanted kisses and touching. This is despite my agreement with him that it “usually isn’t sexual assault,” and it contributes to the devaluing of the term in general. Assault in general is a term that encompasses a lot of actions, so really the issue is that the word has been so valued in the first place. The word in military context is really the only place where it always denotes a severe action. No problem here in general. Specifically, I have a problem with sensationalist headlines like “1 in 5 women sexually assaulted in college” when you would agree much of it is tame and not in need of administration/law enforcement crackdowns. I figure people are generally aware at how much gets thrown under the ‘assault’ hood these days.
I didn't say tame. If you said "1 in 10 women have been at least groped on college campuses", yeah, I'd consider that's a fairly severe problem.
I'm just saying "assault" is a term that has always (within at least a 20th century society) encompassed those actions, both literally and legally.
Edit:
Just want to point out that this thread has devolved into Cosmo. "Romance is hard, here's 5 easy steps to see if s/he's into you!"
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:
Edit: and I don't even understand why you'd use Fifty Shades of Grey as an example here, this and other erotica (which are procuded en masse) are predominantly read by women.
I used Fifty Shades of Grey because it's basically one long rape fantasy. It's the best possible example of popular media telling people non consent is sexy. A lot of women read it, but a lot of women have rape fantasies so that's to be expected. The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos.
It's like the "what not to do" for relationships, and BDSM relationships in particular.
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On November 10 2017 09:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:On November 10 2017 08:55 KwarK wrote:
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it". I also don't see the conflict between inferring consent from body language and emotional connection either though. It might end up in a few more cases of misinterpretation, but that'll make you learn more about what's allowed and not in the future. We're rapidly approaching a generation where literally everything is turned into cookie cutter bullshit. Want a kiss? Ask politely for it if you can have a kiss. Want to move from A->B in a video game? Perhaps this path that we've highlighted might lead you to where you want to go. Want to solve this riddle? Perhaps try this mechanic. Everything is slowly getting a tutorial on how to do it and it's completely deconstructing the human experience imo. There's no more room for exploring and curiosity and failure. It all needs to be streamlined and, like I've said before, sterile. I'm not saying you have to ask before everything, quite the opposite, you can absolutely accept non verbal cues. But if you're not getting non verbal cues that support your theory that she wants it, or the non verbal cues you're getting are negative, don't go "she hasn't preemptively given me a list of what she doesn't consent to so technically she hasn't said no" and do the thing anyway. Honestly to me this comes down to nothing more than common sense. The whole consent vs romance thing is a false conflict.
There's a particular mood/type of woman where this is actually a little complicated but pretty much no one is referencing it in arguments like we've seen here. As a black man I've been put in plenty of ambiguous situations.
I've had to walk away more than once from sexual encounters I wasn't comfortable with because the line between consent and not wasn't clear enough. But the same kinda people who climb rocks, jump out of planes, etc... probably wouldn't just not avoid the risk, but get off on it.
The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos.
Don't think we need to kink shame, but yeah, that was something that immediately lept out to me when my gf finally made me watch it.
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On November 10 2017 09:10 KwarK wrote:
I'm not saying you have to ask before everything, quite the opposite, you can absolutely accept non verbal cues. But if you're not getting non verbal cues that support your theory that she wants it, or the non verbal cues you're getting are negative, don't go "she hasn't preemptively given me a list of what she doesn't consent to so technically she hasn't said no" and do the thing anyway.
Honestly to me this comes down to nothing more than common sense. The whole consent vs romance thing is a false conflict.
For you it's a false conflict. For other people, like some have expressed in this thread already, it kills the mood. The established tension between the two people can vanish, the person being pursued can possibly change in mood, but I think most of all it's just stupid to just suddenly, in all your rushing of emotions to go: "oh by the way, can I kiss you?" I can completely understand it kills the mood for some people. It's almost like a silly, out of place, piece of slapstick in the intense scene where the killer and the detective are trying to sneak up on each other in the warehouse.
I agree that it's usage of common sense but I want to ask you this: why you'd even ask for consent if you haven't picked up on other cues.
If it's not clear, why even bother with trying and falling flat on your face anyway? You wouldn't want to blow your one chance to get with the girl of your dreams just because you've misread the situation now, do you? So how will consent change that fact that there aren't any cues? Will the cues magically appear after that?
Edit: the thing is, the mass media regarding rape fantasies and non-consent is still going to be largely consumed by women. I'd be very surprised if there was any rise in rape stats after the books and movie(s) came out. After all, that's the most popular one by far. Erotica is big business dude. And by now I think it's general knowledge that women have rape fantasies; doesn't make men rape more because of it.
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On November 10 2017 09:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:10 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:On November 10 2017 08:55 KwarK wrote:
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it". I also don't see the conflict between inferring consent from body language and emotional connection either though. It might end up in a few more cases of misinterpretation, but that'll make you learn more about what's allowed and not in the future. We're rapidly approaching a generation where literally everything is turned into cookie cutter bullshit. Want a kiss? Ask politely for it if you can have a kiss. Want to move from A->B in a video game? Perhaps this path that we've highlighted might lead you to where you want to go. Want to solve this riddle? Perhaps try this mechanic. Everything is slowly getting a tutorial on how to do it and it's completely deconstructing the human experience imo. There's no more room for exploring and curiosity and failure. It all needs to be streamlined and, like I've said before, sterile. I'm not saying you have to ask before everything, quite the opposite, you can absolutely accept non verbal cues. But if you're not getting non verbal cues that support your theory that she wants it, or the non verbal cues you're getting are negative, don't go "she hasn't preemptively given me a list of what she doesn't consent to so technically she hasn't said no" and do the thing anyway. Honestly to me this comes down to nothing more than common sense. The whole consent vs romance thing is a false conflict. There's a particular mood/type of woman where this is actually a little complicated but pretty much no one is referencing it in arguments like we've seen here. As a black man I've been put in plenty of ambiguous situations. I've had to walk away more than once from sexual encounters I wasn't comfortable with because the line between consent and not wasn't clear enough. But the same kinda people who climb rocks, jump out of planes, etc... probably wouldn't just not avoid the risk, but get off on it. Show nested quote +The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos.
Don't think we need to kink shame, but yeah, that was something that immediately lept out to me when my gf finally made me watch it.
50 shades of grey is literally Twilight fanfiction. The thing is that it's totally just fantasy shit, I recall watching a panel of very confused movie critics going the entire time "but... billionaire CEOs tend to be submissives..."
Also, I think this is the type of subject that needs female input to be a decent discussion.
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Norway28892 Posts
On November 10 2017 09:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:On November 10 2017 08:55 KwarK wrote:
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it". I also don't see the conflict between inferring consent from body language and emotional connection either though. It might end up in a few more cases of misinterpretation, but that'll make you learn more about what's allowed and not in the future. We're rapidly approaching a generation where literally everything is turned into cookie cutter bullshit. Want a kiss? Ask politely for it if you can have a kiss. Want to move from A->B in a video game? Perhaps this path that we've highlighted might lead you to where you want to go. Want to solve this riddle? Perhaps try this mechanic. Everything is slowly getting a tutorial on how to do it and it's completely deconstructing the human experience imo. There's no more room for exploring and curiosity and failure. It all needs to be streamlined and, like I've said before, sterile. I'm not saying you have to ask before everything, quite the opposite, you can absolutely accept non verbal cues. But if you're not getting non verbal cues that support your theory that she wants it, or the non verbal cues you're getting are negative, don't go "she hasn't preemptively given me a list of what she doesn't consent to so technically she hasn't said no" and do the thing anyway. Honestly to me this comes down to nothing more than common sense. The whole consent vs romance thing is a false conflict.
The thing is as long as you permit non-verbal consent then you must by default permit misinterpretation also, especially from younger, less experienced guys. To me, I don't like the idea of requiring positive consent, what I see as the big problem is that a lot of guys don't respect negative consent. Like guy and girl have been flirty and even kissing a little bit, now he wants a blowjob or getting laid, and she's like no I don't want that and he just keeps going but come on until she gives in. That's absolutely a big problem, and a real thing. But I see you (and p6) as advocating asking before any real advance is made, even the first kiss, and I disagree with that. I don't think that's necessary, and I really agree with Uldridge in that this type of 'tutorializing the human experience' detracts from it.
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United States44286 Posts
I'm not down with kink shaming but 50 shades does not depict a kink relationship. It's abuse, cover to cover. She's constantly saying no and he's constantly using his wealth and power to ignore that. It's a fantasy so apparently she's cool with it but it's like the worst possible intro to BDSM imaginable.
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On November 10 2017 09:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:04 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 10 2017 08:52 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On November 10 2017 08:41 Danglars wrote:On November 10 2017 08:14 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:
[quote]
first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault?
The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it? An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable. Unwanted kissing (and unwanted sexual touching) are routinely reported as sexual assault to sum up survey results—particularly in surveys of campus sexual assault. The convo was about first date kisses, not "go up to random people and try kissing/groping them". Because, yeah, going up to people you barely know and randomly doing things to them would generally fall under assault of some kind. No problem here. I just want to make sure people know that quotes on percentage of women that have been sexually assaulted usually include all unwanted kisses and touching. This is despite my agreement with him that it “usually isn’t sexual assault,” and it contributes to the devaluing of the term in general. Assault in general is a term that encompasses a lot of actions, so really the issue is that the word has been so valued in the first place. The word in military context is really the only place where it always denotes a severe action. No problem here in general. Specifically, I have a problem with sensationalist headlines like “1 in 5 women sexually assaulted in college” when you would agree much of it is tame and not in need of administration/law enforcement crackdowns. I figure people are generally aware at how much gets thrown under the ‘assault’ hood these days. I didn't say tame. If you said "1 in 10 women have been at least groped on college campuses", yeah, I'd consider that's a fairly severe problem. I'm just saying "assault" is a term that has always (within at least a 20th century society) encompassed those actions, both literally and legally. Edit: Just want to point out that this thread has devolved into Cosmo. "Romance is hard, here's 5 easy steps to see if s/he's into you!"
Close. “One in ten men misread invitations for a kiss (or more)” would be closer. The term assault just conjures images that it’s more than teenagers that misread signals. Like I said earlier, I think most people are conscious that the term accommodates a broad range of behavior today.
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Wahh wahhh if we shame too many sexual assaulters and rapists then beta males will have to start asking for audible consent wahhh wahhhh
I have been asking for audible consent for years and I would advise all younger men to start doing it too. Post #MeToo you have to be touchier about moving in on women the first time.
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Or, instead of being all hyperbolic consider this: you ask consent and we don't instead of trying to get some blanket solution for a society in which different people want different things. No one is pandering to sexual assaulters, rapists and beta males.
And how is a beta male ever not going to ask for consent?
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Drone, I've never had to ask a girl if I could kiss her. I've asked if other stuff was cool, mostly because its just way easier. The reason I brought up kissing on the first date was because this thread when the classic route of:
1: Sexual assault is covered in the media
2: Someone asks "But how can I make out with girls if they will all accuse me of sexual assault?"
3: People who cracked that complex code fill everyone in
4: Gamer nerds demand an If-When Flow Chart for how to know if its ok to make out because human intimacy is scary
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On November 10 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:
Edit: and I don't even understand why you'd use Fifty Shades of Grey as an example here, this and other erotica (which are procuded en masse) are predominantly read by women. I used Fifty Shades of Grey because it's basically one long rape fantasy. It's the best possible example of popular media telling people non consent is sexy. A lot of women read it, but a lot of women have rape fantasies so that's to be expected. The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos. It's like the "what not to do" for relationships, and BDSM relationships in particular.
actually kwark explicit consent is central to the sex in that book. the billionaire has air tight lengthy contracts before any sexual hijinx. that must be why women love it. consent is sexy
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Wrong hill to die on
One of Breitbart‘s editors appeared on MSNBC this afternoon to discuss the Moore story and his outlet’s piece. And not only did he double down on the notion that the Post was being political, he also claimed that only one of the alleged relationships in the report was “problematic.”
“If you read the Washington Post article, they stuff all kinds of things into that piece about accusations against Roy that have nothing to do with this story,” Breitbart editor Joel Pollak told host Ali Velshi. “Their piece is structured like a political hit piece. I don’t see why the Washington Post is allowed to do that in an article that’s supposed to focus on facts.”
Velshi wanted to know why Pollak was willing to be on the “wrong side of this,” especially if the allegations are true. He further noted that Breitbart immediately ran Moore’s response as a defense of the Senate candidate.
“If this story is true, and I think any story of sexual misconduct especially with someone underage is very serious, why would the Washington Post wrap it with perfectly legitimate relationships as well as all kinds of political clutter?” Pollak stated.
The MSNBC host pushed back, highlighting that while Pollak was describing the Post’s story as a “political hit piece,” the Breitbart story feels like a defense of Moore. The Breitbart editor then claimed that the story should have only been about Moore’s alleged contact with a 14-year-old.
“The 16-year-old and the 18-year-old have no business in that story because those are women of legal age of consent,” Pollak claimed. Velshi pointed out that the Post story said teenagers and there wasn’t anything inaccurate about their report.
“My point, the Post successfully put out a narrative on MSNBC and other places there’s a pattern of teenagers,” the Breitbart editor shot back. “As far as we know, facts could be different, there’s only one relationship alleged that’s problematic.”
After Velshi said “one too many,” Pollak went on to state that Moore has “serious problems” if the allegations regarding the 14-year-old girl turn out to be true, but that the story needs to be drilled down and he finds it “curious” that the Post would highlight the other relationships with teenagers.
Watch the clip above, via MSNBC.
www.mediaite.com
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On November 10 2017 09:58 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:
Edit: and I don't even understand why you'd use Fifty Shades of Grey as an example here, this and other erotica (which are procuded en masse) are predominantly read by women. I used Fifty Shades of Grey because it's basically one long rape fantasy. It's the best possible example of popular media telling people non consent is sexy. A lot of women read it, but a lot of women have rape fantasies so that's to be expected. The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos. It's like the "what not to do" for relationships, and BDSM relationships in particular. actually kwark explicit consent is central to the sex in that book. the billionaire has air tight lengthy contracts before any sexual hijinx. that must be why women love it. consent is sexy
No, that book is super bad on contest. Ignoring the safe word is the opposite of consent.
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On November 10 2017 09:27 KwarK wrote:
I'm not down with kink shaming but 50 shades does not depict a kink relationship. It's abuse, cover to cover. She's constantly saying no and he's constantly using his wealth and power to ignore that. It's a fantasy so apparently she's cool with it but it's like the worst possible intro to BDSM imaginable.
from what i remember, mary sue signs a contract with tall, dark and creepy. though the question might be if it's enforceable if some of the terms are not legal.
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On November 10 2017 09:43 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Wahh wahhh if we shame too many sexual assaulters and rapists then beta males will have to start asking for audible consent wahhh wahhhh
I have been asking for audible consent for years and I would advise all younger men to start doing it too. Post #MeToo you have to be touchier about moving in on women the first time.
If you can't read cues, I think you're erring on the right side of caution.
I think the standards are the same pre- and post-, just more people realize Hollywood does not practice what it preaches.
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On November 10 2017 10:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:58 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:
Edit: and I don't even understand why you'd use Fifty Shades of Grey as an example here, this and other erotica (which are procuded en masse) are predominantly read by women. I used Fifty Shades of Grey because it's basically one long rape fantasy. It's the best possible example of popular media telling people non consent is sexy. A lot of women read it, but a lot of women have rape fantasies so that's to be expected. The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos. It's like the "what not to do" for relationships, and BDSM relationships in particular. actually kwark explicit consent is central to the sex in that book. the billionaire has air tight lengthy contracts before any sexual hijinx. that must be why women love it. consent is sexy No, that book is super bad on contest. Ignoring the safe word is the opposite of consent.
can you provide a page cite for that? im having trouble finding evidence of ignoring the safe word
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 09:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:10 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:On November 10 2017 08:55 KwarK wrote:
I don't see a conflict between consent and romance. Honestly I think the idea is absurd outside of virginal teenagers who get their sexual education from Hollywood and Fifty Shades of Grey. At no point in my adult life have I had a potential romantic experience ruined by not acting when I doubted consent.
Also, even if we accept the premise that asking might spoil the romantic mood, that's really not so bad. Not bad enough that you should think "better I just do it and hope she's into it". I also don't see the conflict between inferring consent from body language and emotional connection either though. It might end up in a few more cases of misinterpretation, but that'll make you learn more about what's allowed and not in the future. We're rapidly approaching a generation where literally everything is turned into cookie cutter bullshit. Want a kiss? Ask politely for it if you can have a kiss. Want to move from A->B in a video game? Perhaps this path that we've highlighted might lead you to where you want to go. Want to solve this riddle? Perhaps try this mechanic. Everything is slowly getting a tutorial on how to do it and it's completely deconstructing the human experience imo. There's no more room for exploring and curiosity and failure. It all needs to be streamlined and, like I've said before, sterile. I'm not saying you have to ask before everything, quite the opposite, you can absolutely accept non verbal cues. But if you're not getting non verbal cues that support your theory that she wants it, or the non verbal cues you're getting are negative, don't go "she hasn't preemptively given me a list of what she doesn't consent to so technically she hasn't said no" and do the thing anyway. Honestly to me this comes down to nothing more than common sense. The whole consent vs romance thing is a false conflict. The thing is as long as you permit non-verbal consent then you must by default permit misinterpretation also, especially from younger, less experienced guys. To me, I don't like the idea of requiring positive consent, what I see as the big problem is that a lot of guys don't respect negative consent. Like guy and girl have been flirty and even kissing a little bit, now he wants a blowjob or getting laid, and she's like no I don't want that and he just keeps going but come on until she gives in. That's absolutely a big problem, and a real thing. But I see you (and p6) as advocating asking before any real advance is made, even the first kiss, and I disagree with that. I don't think that's necessary, and I really agree with Uldridge in that this type of 'tutorializing the human experience' detracts from it.
I'm not not permitting misinterpretation. I'm not saying we should lynch teenagers who make mistakes. I'm saying we shouldn't allow misinterpretation to give universal cover.
The issue is we have predatory people (not dumb teenagers) who are insisting that they're making genuine mistakes in situations where they're totally not making reasonable genuine mistakes. Saying they totally didn't know that the girl didn't want them to start asking sexual questions and jerking off while on the phone. Instead of calling them out and saying "you fucking knew you shouldn't have done that" we stick to the facts say "well you didn't get consent so you still fucked up". And at that point they hit back and say "yeah, well if you always have to do that then you'll have all teenagers making innocent mistakes caught up in the same net". But it's bullshit, it's not even real camouflage, it's just theoretical camouflage.
We don't have thousands of people getting in trouble for not asking for consent with 99% being completely fine and innocent and 1% being not fine. Women on dates aren't reporting their dates for kissing without asking. What we have are bosses kissing their employees and then saying "well if I did something wrong then what about hypothetical people on hypothetical dates! Surely they did something wrong too!".
If I had a teenage son I wouldn't tell him that he needed to ask permission for everything. What I would tell him is not to do shit his partners didn't want him to do.
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 09:58 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On November 10 2017 09:05 Uldridge wrote:
Edit: and I don't even understand why you'd use Fifty Shades of Grey as an example here, this and other erotica (which are procuded en masse) are predominantly read by women. I used Fifty Shades of Grey because it's basically one long rape fantasy. It's the best possible example of popular media telling people non consent is sexy. A lot of women read it, but a lot of women have rape fantasies so that's to be expected. The issue is when idiots decide that they should apply the shit in their book to their real lives while not also being handsome billionaires stalking one dimensional bimbos. It's like the "what not to do" for relationships, and BDSM relationships in particular. actually kwark explicit consent is central to the sex in that book. the billionaire has air tight lengthy contracts before any sexual hijinx. that must be why women love it. consent is sexy
Not sure if trolling or stupid but signing a contract ahead of time doesn't give an irrevocable grant of consent. Consent is an ongoing state. You can't sign your right to withdraw consent away. Not only are the contracts airtight, they're meaningless. They're also not signed before the fucking starts.
Also she's constantly telling him no and to go away and that she wants nothing to do with him. That's the central drama for most of it. He has his guys follow her and is constantly showing up where she is and buys her place of work etc.
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EPT
