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On November 10 2017 08:02 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:00 Kickboxer wrote:
Wait so Luie cK got naked in front of some adult women and wanked? I mean, the women stayed there in the room ... or? I'm quite confused. 5 female "comedians"?
If a woman does that they charge you and call it a strip club. No exceptions. Triple standards? Imagine your female Boss, who is 30 years older than you are, asking you to come into her room. You being there, she asks "Is it fine if i masturbate while you watch?", and while you are stunned by that question, she starts doing just that. Doesn't sound like a fun event to me.
To be completely honest, the amount of fun that I would experience would be directly proportional to how hot she is.
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United States44286 Posts
On November 10 2017 08:00 Kickboxer wrote:
Wait so Luie cK got naked in front of some adult women and wanked? I mean, the women stayed there in the room ... or? I'm quite confused. 5 female "comedians"?
If a woman does that they charge you and call it a strip club. No exceptions. Triple standards?
A man in a strip club paying for a performance from a woman is a different context to a woman in her hotel room wishing the overweight 50 year old would put his dick away. This isn't a double standards issue.
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On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment?
first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault?
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On November 10 2017 08:04 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:02 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 08:00 Kickboxer wrote:
Wait so Luie cK got naked in front of some adult women and wanked? I mean, the women stayed there in the room ... or? I'm quite confused. 5 female "comedians"?
If a woman does that they charge you and call it a strip club. No exceptions. Triple standards? Imagine your female Boss, who is 30 years older than you are, asking you to come into her room. You being there, she asks "Is it fine if i masturbate while you watch?", and while you are stunned by that question, she starts doing just that. Doesn't sound like a fun event to me. To be completely honest, the amount of fun that I would experience would be directly proportional to how hot she is.
Well, imagine a female Louis CK. I don't know your preferences.
So, 25 years older than you and about 50 pounds overweight or something?
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I think if we put some numbers on this we could better quantify the outrage. If everyone is a 10 then none of them are a 10.
10 - Cosby: Mass serial rape with a system of enablers to silence and harm victims after the assaults and drugs.
9 - Weinstein: Mass serial rape with a system of enablers to silence and harm victims after the assaults and punish those who refuse.
8 - Ailes/O'Reilly: serial assault/rape/harassment with a system of enablers to silence and harm victims after the assaults
7 - Spacey/Hastert: rape in the first degree of a minor
6 - Moore: several underage molestations, but not quite to penetration (based on current accusations, could update at any time)
6 - Generic: rape in the first/second degrees of an adult
5 - Generic: sexual assault short of rape in the first/second degrees (physical contact from here on up)
5 - Weiner: sexual nudity with a minor so he is above LouisCK
4 - LouisCK: jerking off in front of women but no physical contact with victims (sexual nudity)
3 - Generic: exposure of penis and suggestion (nudity from here on up)
2 - Generic: unwanted and weird touching and hugs at workplace (touching)
1 - Generic: unwanted and abusive/weird words in workplace or other location (no touching)
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On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault?
The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory.
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On November 10 2017 07:39 ticklishmusic wrote:
muslims believe that the 'true word of god' is the qu'ran in original arabic, but i don't believe there's any such belief in christianity.
it depends on the branch, there's a lot of versions of christianity. america does have some biblical literalists supporting various versions.
In particular I nkow there's some who believe the king james version is the true and correct one.
I mock them for their poor understanding of theology.
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i wonder if someone has broken down romantic first kisses in cinema by how many of them are preceded by a formal request for permission. that would be interesting.
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There has not been a situation where grown men are "paralyzed" by a masturbating woman. Mostly because that hardly ever happens but hey.
These bandwagoning hags entering the discussion makes it instantly ridiculous. Five nonames getting their first and last press by #metooing a highly successful old fart for masterbating on the phone? Ok.
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On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory.
what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it?
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On November 10 2017 08:09 IgnE wrote:
i wonder if someone has broken down romantic first kisses in cinema by how many of them are preceded by a formal request for permission. that would be interesting.
I would argue that the romantic build up to the first kiss is the awkward confirming of consent. The lean in, hesitate, check if its cool, its cool, continue with the kiss, Michael Bay camera spin.
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On November 10 2017 08:09 Kickboxer wrote:
There has not been a situation where grown men are "paralyzed" by a masturbating woman. Mostly because that hardly ever happens but hey.
These bandwagoning hags entering the discussion makes it instantly ridiculous. Five nonames getting their first and last press by #metooing a highly successful old fart for masterbating on the phone? Ok.
Do you have a daughter? Would you be cool if her boss jacked off with her on the phone?
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All I know is that between this #metoo shit that is going to result in South Park's satire of written consent forms becoming reality and the prevalence of STDs, I'm glad that I'm married and off of the market.
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On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it?
An unwanted kiss usually isn't sexual assault, but it can easily contribute to an atmosphere in which women feel uncomfortable. I think that's the point of the whole #metoo thing - it's not necessarily that awful crimes against women are being committed by all men all the time, but that a lot of men with good intentions can unwittingly contribute to an atmosphere which makes women feel permanently uncomfortable.
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On November 10 2017 08:02 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:00 Kickboxer wrote:
Wait so Luie cK got naked in front of some adult women and wanked? I mean, the women stayed there in the room ... or? I'm quite confused. 5 female "comedians"?
If a woman does that they charge you and call it a strip club. No exceptions. Triple standards? Imagine your female Boss, who is 30 years older than you are, asking you to come into her room. You being there, she asks "Is it fine if i masturbate while you watch?", and while you are stunned by that question, she starts doing just that. Doesn't sound like a fun event to me.
I suppose it's a preference thing, I'd sooner watch a geriatric woman/man masturbate than a lot of the things people are expected to do to get promoted/keep a job.
People masturbating doesn't creep me out as much as a lot of people though.
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On November 10 2017 08:10 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:08 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:05 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 07:52 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2017 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On November 10 2017 06:49 IgnE wrote:On November 10 2017 06:42 kollin wrote:On November 10 2017 06:41 IgnE wrote:
asking permission is what i meant by "explicit permission". coincidentally in almost all of the stories in that NYT article louis ck did ask for explicit permission. so thats a case where asking for explicit permission didnt solve the problem, although im sure you meant to include something like waiting for an affirmative answer that you are sure was uncoerced
generally though a lot of flirting doesnt proceed by asking for explicit permission to flirt. Does masturbarion fall under flirting? i suppose the anawer is "it depends" but ill short circuit this digression and just say "no" to avoid this pointless line of questioning. obviously what louis ck apparently has a history of doing is not a good thing to go back to my original post on this topic though, i was thinking aloud about whether the #metoo movement, which has brought to light numerous instances of horrific and bad behavior, might have a chilling effect on flirting generally. im not even necessarily opposed to explicit permission to flirt, although a lot of women seem to enjoy flirting themselves, and a lot of them think that explicitly asking for permission is anathema to flirting itself anathema -- from the greek ana + tithemi . . . I'm pretty sure a guy in a bar flirting with girls in short skirts isn't going to worry that she will tweet #metoo later. Flirting between 'normal' people will be perfectly fine. Those in the public light might be a little more careful and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think a main point here is how people view consent. If you think that consent is a hurdle that you need to trick other people (usually women) over to get what you want, you don't get what it is about. This view leaves your very likely to have the problem where people accuse you of sexual harassment. Because you don't care about the other person, you care about what you want to get, and you try to convince and/or trick the other person to allow you to take it from them. If you view consent as something that is important to you, too, you simply don't have that problem. Because you make certain that the other person is really okay with what you want to do, before doing it. You don't try to trick the other person. If you are uncertain about consent, you make sure that you are both on the same wavelength with regards to what you intent to do. That possibly involves going slowly, and carefully watching the other person. And stopping as soon as there is any doubt that they might not be okay with what is happening, either completely or to ask and clarify. Don't go for minimum possible consent necessary. Go for more. Make sure. If it is not absolutely clear, ask. I am also not quite certain what kind of flirting people do that might be mistaken for sexual harassment? first dates are a prime example, like our humble servant P6 points out. if a clueless guy goes for a kiss thats not really wanted by the woman on a first date is that sexual assault? The assault part all depends on how the person takes being rejected and the nature of the kiss. If they fuck up the read and she just says no thanks, its not a big deal. If fucking up the read also results in shoving his tongue in her mouth, we have reached assault territory. what if theres no tongue? and/or if she doesnt say no thanks explicitly but still didnt want it?
Its all about the fact set and how serious the "assault" is. A botched, unwanted kiss is a form of unwanted sexual advance. But it shouldn't rise to the level of assault unless there are other facts. Did the victim feel trapped? Did the person doing it hold them or not respond to resistance? Was either party drunk? So on and so on.
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On November 10 2017 08:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:09 IgnE wrote:
i wonder if someone has broken down romantic first kisses in cinema by how many of them are preceded by a formal request for permission. that would be interesting. I would argue that the romantic build up to the first kiss is the awkward confirming of consent. The lean in, hesitate, check if its cool, its cool, continue with the kiss, Michael Bay camera spin.
obviously theres consent in (most) first movie kisses, and obviously its only implicit. my point here is that people arent born knowing how these social dynamics, usually need practice to effectively master them, and that the process itself is bound up in testing where lines are drawn.
if the answer is always "it depends" avoiding the whole situation might be the best option, especially if social ostracism is the result for any slips
add in a generation where they look at screens more than other faces, dont question authority, and) are particularly sensitive to sexual harrassment charges (not without good reason) and what do you get? the death of romance and flirtation? or its redefinition into explicit mutual consent contracts?
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On November 10 2017 08:09 IgnE wrote:
i wonder if someone has broken down romantic first kisses in cinema by how many of them are preceded by a formal request for permission. that would be interesting.
Haven't you watched Hitch? 90/10. Inhaler optional.
On November 10 2017 08:17 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2017 08:11 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2017 08:09 IgnE wrote:
i wonder if someone has broken down romantic first kisses in cinema by how many of them are preceded by a formal request for permission. that would be interesting. I would argue that the romantic build up to the first kiss is the awkward confirming of consent. The lean in, hesitate, check if its cool, its cool, continue with the kiss, Michael Bay camera spin. obviously theres consent in (most) first movie kisses, and obviously its only implicit. my point here is that people arent born knowing how these social dynamics, usually need practice to effectively master them, and that the process itself is bound up in testing where lines are drawn. add in a generation where they look at screens more than other faces, dont question authority, and) are particularly sensitive to sexual harrassment charges (not without good reason) and what do you get? the death of romance and flirtation? or its redefinition into explicit mutual consent contracts?
Just gonna say, if you (male or female) are learning your romance cues from Hollywood, you've probably already fucked up.
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Again in this thread people are getting bogged down in a discussion of 'what if X was done to you? Is that sexual assault? How about X in Y situation?' Which ignores the point. The point is if the action leads to the woman feeling uncomfortable, then you shouldn't do it. It doesn't mean that all men are awful mega pedos and should be locked up, but that men should just be careful with their actions and think things through - as everyone should!
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United States44286 Posts
Kickboxer's argument is unbelievably stupid and demonstrates a complete failure to understand the difference between sex and sexual assault.
If Louis CK was a sex worker at a sex club and people were paying to watch him masturbate then it would be fine. It's the context, and the lack of consent, that make it wrong. Arguing that if both of those were different then it would be different is both redundant and idiotic.
It's not the sex bit people are mad about, it's the assault bit.
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