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On August 09 2017 00:28 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad. Speaking locally, about the areas surrounding Portland, Oregon, there are definitely areas that are not so great that are very distinctly poor immigrant areas.
Come out to Michigan and I'll match every single immigrant you're referencing with an actual citizen who "deserves to be here" even less given the way they interact with society (honestly, you can probably reproduce this effect in Eastern Oregon easily enough  ). Add in the difficulty of sifting through these folks and I think it becomes clear that fears of unproductive/clashing citizenry ought likely be more focused on folks already here 
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On August 09 2017 00:31 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. Probably better than the average citizen, as immigrants are by default a group proactively trying to adjust their lives for the better. That likely skews the statistics a little.
Someone does not need to be 'good' in order to seek to improve their lives. Lowlifes have plenty of reason to try to reach the US. You can be willing to work hard at getting here without being someone who wants to build a career and generally be a good person.
But as I said, the neighborhoods and people I am describing are definitely not legal. So it is perhaps another argument.
On August 09 2017 00:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad. Speaking locally, about the areas surrounding Portland, Oregon, there are definitely areas that are not so great that are very distinctly poor immigrant areas. Come out to Michigan and I'll match every single immigrant you're referencing with an actual citizen who "deserves to be here" even less given the way they interact with society (honestly, you can probably reproduce this effect in Eastern Oregon easily enough ). Add in the difficulty in sifting through these folks and I think it becomes clear that fears of unproductive/clashing citizenry ought likely be more focused on folks already here
The existence of shitty citizens is not an argument in favor of getting more of them. I think I have expressed enough utilitarian perspectives on humanity to show that I am not accepting of shitty citizens. My point is that we have no reason to expand that population outside of their natural in-country breeding.
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On August 09 2017 00:28 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad.
I have worked for landlords resolving issues with non-paying tenants in the way that you do that. A good chunk of those tenants were not US citizens or has family members who were not US citizens. But I don’t let that color my opinion of immigrants when I have been shown data that says they are not all like that. Immigrants are people and they have families. We don’t just get to pick out the one or two super productive members of each family and tell the rest of them not to come over. We will have zero immigrants if we start doing that.
Edit: As farvacola said - I'll show you sections of Western Mass that belong here and are totally worthless. Entire towns that are just drains on everything around them. Or towns of good church going people that refuse to have a homeless shelter set up in their town, even though it is overrun with poor homeless people.
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On August 09 2017 00:33 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:31 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. Probably better than the average citizen, as immigrants are by default a group proactively trying to adjust their lives for the better. That likely skews the statistics a little. Someone does not need to be 'good' in order to seek to improve their lives. Lowlifes have plenty of reason to try to reach the US. You can be willing to work hard at getting here without being someone who wants to build a career and generally be a good person. But as I said, the neighborhoods and people I am describing are definitely not legal. So it is perhaps another argument. Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:33 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad. Speaking locally, about the areas surrounding Portland, Oregon, there are definitely areas that are not so great that are very distinctly poor immigrant areas. Come out to Michigan and I'll match every single immigrant you're referencing with an actual citizen who "deserves to be here" even less given the way they interact with society (honestly, you can probably reproduce this effect in Eastern Oregon easily enough ). Add in the difficulty in sifting through these folks and I think it becomes clear that fears of unproductive/clashing citizenry ought likely be more focused on folks already here The existence of shitty citizens is not an argument in favor of getting more of them. I think I have expressed enough utilitarian perspectives on humanity to show that I am not accepting of shitty citizens. My point is that we have no reason to expand that population outside of their natural in-country breeding.
The point is that if you want to utilize a utilitarian perspective when adjudging the rights of people to live and work in this country, you are not maximizing utility by focusing on trying to sift through immigrants that are almost certainly on net less harmful to our collective well-being than the folks already here. In other words, "keep out the bad ones" just doesn't make sense when we've already got plenty who are almost certainly worse, especially given our nation's historic relationship with relatively open immigration.
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United States42954 Posts
Feels over reals man. They feel like Obama was president from 2000 to 2016.
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On August 09 2017 00:39 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:33 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:31 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. Probably better than the average citizen, as immigrants are by default a group proactively trying to adjust their lives for the better. That likely skews the statistics a little. Someone does not need to be 'good' in order to seek to improve their lives. Lowlifes have plenty of reason to try to reach the US. You can be willing to work hard at getting here without being someone who wants to build a career and generally be a good person. But as I said, the neighborhoods and people I am describing are definitely not legal. So it is perhaps another argument. On August 09 2017 00:33 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad. Speaking locally, about the areas surrounding Portland, Oregon, there are definitely areas that are not so great that are very distinctly poor immigrant areas. Come out to Michigan and I'll match every single immigrant you're referencing with an actual citizen who "deserves to be here" even less given the way they interact with society (honestly, you can probably reproduce this effect in Eastern Oregon easily enough ). Add in the difficulty in sifting through these folks and I think it becomes clear that fears of unproductive/clashing citizenry ought likely be more focused on folks already here The existence of shitty citizens is not an argument in favor of getting more of them. I think I have expressed enough utilitarian perspectives on humanity to show that I am not accepting of shitty citizens. My point is that we have no reason to expand that population outside of their natural in-country breeding. The point is that if you want to utilize a utilitarian perspective when adjudging the rights of people to live and work in this country, you are not maximizing utility by focusing on trying to sift through immigrants that are almost certainly on net less harmful to our collective well-being than the folks already here. In other words, "keep out the bad ones" just doesn't make sense when we've already got plenty who are almost certainly worse, especially given our nation's historic relationship with relatively open immigration.
This doesn't make sense and I think you know it. We can do multiple things. Some things are easier than others. And what, are you really saying we need to be focusing on removing shitty citizens? Come now. This idea that there are already existing shitty citizens is simply not an effective argument against well filtered immigration. What if we had 2 entirely different goals? What if the people involved with bringing up average education in rural areas was done by a group entirely independent of immigration? It's not like we have some single "council of human quality" that can either choose to discuss local or foreign humans.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I kind of feel like this highlighting of blatant lies on the part of Obama critics is not much different from the right-leaning use of highlighting the stupidest "SJW" types to show that they're all rotten. Yeah, there are some high-profile morons around, unfortunately. Do we learn anything more from just one more irrelevant example thereof?
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On August 09 2017 00:18 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:17 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong. Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from. It is just like I think it is fine in Sweden but my mother is worried in some areas. These areas are likely ~100 times safer than the US ghettos currently existing.
probably more like 10x safer; as a guess based on my knowledge of the relevant stats.
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On August 09 2017 00:46 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:18 Yurie wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong. Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from. It is just like I think it is fine in Sweden but my mother is worried in some areas. These areas are likely ~100 times safer than the US ghettos currently existing. probably more like 10x safer; as a guess based on my knowledge of the relevant stats.
Depends on what you compare. Detroit is barely safer than some countries which are currently engaging in open civil war, so there is that. I mean, we wouldn't want to set the bar for "safety" too high after all. Also, if we can just strawman arguments we don't really have to properly engage in an honest discussion and can instead go "hurrr shitty white racists".
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United States42954 Posts
On August 09 2017 00:44 LegalLord wrote:
I kind of feel like this highlighting of blatant lies on the part of Obama critics is not much different from the right-leaning use of highlighting the stupidest "SJW" types to show that they're all rotten. Yeah, there are some high-profile morons around, unfortunately. Do we learn anything more from just one more irrelevant example thereof?
I mean when one of the "high-profile morons" is the President it's kinda a noteworthy issue. You're not wrong that there are idiots on both sides which can be used to falsely paint the entire side with a broad brush. But only one side collectively voted their idiot to represent them and then elected him to President.
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Oh but who cares? It's not like facts matter anymore. Lie often enough and people stop caring. That's the GOP lesson for american politics. And if the media notices, yell "FAKE NEWS" or just say that they are biaised.
On August 09 2017 00:44 LegalLord wrote:
I kind of feel like this highlighting of blatant lies on the part of Obama critics is not much different from the right-leaning use of highlighting the stupidest "SJW" types to show that they're all rotten. Yeah, there are some high-profile morons around, unfortunately. Do we learn anything more from just one more irrelevant example thereof?
The problem is that the president, most of his administration and a big chunk of the party lie in the most insulting and blatant way on a daily basis. It's not some "high profile morons", it's a systemic dismissal of facts from the people who govern the country.
To put in another way, the country is ran by high profile morons and it's quite worrying. Trump has invented a brand of post factual politics, and that ain't gonna end well. And it's journalists job to keep holding him and his goons accountable for their counless lies.
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Mohdoo: you seem to be a guy who deeply values rational thought and the scientific theory. A lot people in this thread who are involved with difference professional aspects involving immigrants are telling you that the problem isn’t as large as you believe it is. We are not providing data based evidence, but I don’t think that should be necessary since you are citing anecdotal experience. So we understand that you feel the US isn’t doing enough to keep “the bad ones” out. But your feelings don’t really mirror the reality of US immigration.
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On August 09 2017 00:43 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:39 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:33 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:31 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. Probably better than the average citizen, as immigrants are by default a group proactively trying to adjust their lives for the better. That likely skews the statistics a little. Someone does not need to be 'good' in order to seek to improve their lives. Lowlifes have plenty of reason to try to reach the US. You can be willing to work hard at getting here without being someone who wants to build a career and generally be a good person. But as I said, the neighborhoods and people I am describing are definitely not legal. So it is perhaps another argument. On August 09 2017 00:33 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people. My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad. Speaking locally, about the areas surrounding Portland, Oregon, there are definitely areas that are not so great that are very distinctly poor immigrant areas. Come out to Michigan and I'll match every single immigrant you're referencing with an actual citizen who "deserves to be here" even less given the way they interact with society (honestly, you can probably reproduce this effect in Eastern Oregon easily enough ). Add in the difficulty in sifting through these folks and I think it becomes clear that fears of unproductive/clashing citizenry ought likely be more focused on folks already here The existence of shitty citizens is not an argument in favor of getting more of them. I think I have expressed enough utilitarian perspectives on humanity to show that I am not accepting of shitty citizens. My point is that we have no reason to expand that population outside of their natural in-country breeding. The point is that if you want to utilize a utilitarian perspective when adjudging the rights of people to live and work in this country, you are not maximizing utility by focusing on trying to sift through immigrants that are almost certainly on net less harmful to our collective well-being than the folks already here. In other words, "keep out the bad ones" just doesn't make sense when we've already got plenty who are almost certainly worse, especially given our nation's historic relationship with relatively open immigration. This doesn't make sense and I think you know it. We can do multiple things. Some things are easier than others. And what, are you really saying we need to be focusing on removing shitty citizens? Come now. This idea that there are already existing shitty citizens is simply not an effective argument against well filtered immigration. What if we had 2 entirely different goals? What if the people involved with bringing up average education in rural areas was done by a group entirely independent of immigration? It's not like we have some single "council of human quality" that can either choose to discuss local or foreign humans.
"Well filtered immigration" might as well be a flying cow until you base it on some kind of actual system; no one is against a system that is definitively already working well and no one here, at least certainly not I, thinks this applies to our pre-existing system. However, if you think filtering people out based on metrics at all similar to those proposed in the bad bill earlier mentioned, you should see what prioritizing wealthy young foreign students has done to the East Lansing area.
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On August 09 2017 00:44 LegalLord wrote:
I kind of feel like this highlighting of blatant lies on the part of Obama critics is not much different from the right-leaning use of highlighting the stupidest "SJW" types to show that they're all rotten. Yeah, there are some high-profile morons around, unfortunately. Do we learn anything more from just one more irrelevant example thereof?
Normally I'd agree but A) they were just named spokesman for the RNC and B) they were just on something called Trump TV. If she were still just a CNN contributer I would have not bothered to post it.
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On August 09 2017 00:47 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:46 zlefin wrote:On August 09 2017 00:18 Yurie wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong. Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from. It is just like I think it is fine in Sweden but my mother is worried in some areas. These areas are likely ~100 times safer than the US ghettos currently existing. probably more like 10x safer; as a guess based on my knowledge of the relevant stats. Depends on what you compare. Detroit is barely safer than some countries which are currently engaging in open civil war, so there is that. I mean, we wouldn't want to set the bar for "safety" too high after all. Also, if we can just strawman arguments we don't really have to properly engage in an honest discussion and can instead go "hurrr shitty white racists".
Have you ever been to Detroit, and if not, do you think it'd make sense for me to comment on the safety of Copenhagen based purely on third-person data that mostly references the infamous ghetto list? Detroit has parts that are dangerous, that much is true, but "open civil war" hyperbole is simply unfounded. I say this as the son of the guy who signs off on literally every dead body found in Wayne County.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 09 2017 00:53 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
they were just on something called Trump TV.
Serious question, is this term being used ironically or is there such a medium now?
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On August 09 2017 00:56 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:53 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
they were just on something called Trump TV. Serious question, is this term being used ironically or is there such a medium now?
Pretty sure that was the name of the actual thing but I may be wrong. It's apparently paid for by the Trump reelection campaign. Seems to be the actual name
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On August 09 2017 00:56 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:53 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
they were just on something called Trump TV. Serious question, is this term being used ironically or is there such a medium now?
Trump has his own network thing. I’m not sure it is on any cable package, but he pays to have a news style broadcast of the facts he would like to see be facts.
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The format of Trump TV reminds me of Command and Conquer cutscenes lol
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EPT
