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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 08 2017 23:26 Plansix wrote:
I am not convinced that the US wants to change its immigration policy away its historical role of welcoming immigrants who want to find a better life. There is a group in the US that thinks it would be better for the US to take people based on merit, but they are not this clear majority. The discussion is more nuanced than that.
I love that you think that the current US policy is welcoming of immigrants who want to find a better life.
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On August 09 2017 00:01 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2017 23:26 Plansix wrote:
I am not convinced that the US wants to change its immigration policy away its historical role of welcoming immigrants who want to find a better life. There is a group in the US that thinks it would be better for the US to take people based on merit, but they are not this clear majority. The discussion is more nuanced than that. I love that you think that the current US policy is welcoming of immigrants who want to find a better life.
That is the ideal and the goal. Shining city on the hill and all that nationalist rah, rah. I work with a lot of immigrants in my billing department. They all think its pretty dope to live here. Of course the entire process is nuanced, has changed in the last 100 years and has been more and less open at times. But the basic theory is that the US is strong with immigrants who are seeking a better life for themselves. That is how both side of my family came here in 1890s-1910.
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I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation.
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No one is disputing whether or not the US historically has been like that. Or whether or not those that make it through the eye of the needle are happy about it. Good for your family.
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Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
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On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from.
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On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation.
You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits.
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On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
Fox News, Sinclair on the TV.
Thiel, Mercer, Luckey in social media.
The propaganda is thorough and effective.
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On August 09 2017 00:17 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong. Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from.
It is just like I think it is fine in Sweden but my mother is worried in some areas. These areas are likely ~100 times safer than the US ghettos currently existing.
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On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
Welcome to the club, it seems the whole France is burning when we listen to foreign reports following any incident during a protest.
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On August 09 2017 00:18 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:17 farvacola wrote:On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong. Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from. It is just like I think it is fine in Sweden but my mother is worried in some areas. These areas are likely ~100 times safer than the US ghettos currently existing.
I’m from rural white people country and those areas are just as shitty, crime ridden and filled with garbage. But its white people garbage, so we don’t blame it on things like culture.
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United States42578 Posts
On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong.
The hips don't lie. Germany is now ruled by Shakira Law. If it's any consolation, so is London.
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On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits.
What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone.
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On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone.
So according to that the US should make it easier for companies to import workers? Maybe just require an employment contract signed and then ban companies (from that privilege) that abuses it? Also require companies to exist and have books for 10 years of business or similar to stop throw-away companies people pay to get in.
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On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone.
That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people.
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On August 09 2017 00:17 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:15 Simberto wrote:
Related: Why do people constantly point to Germany as if we were some hellhole when talking about immigration?
It is nice in Germany. Right-wing people from other countries seem to have this idea that there are raving mobs of arab rapist terrorists everywhere. They are wrong. Because people eat up the posts of "I'm scared of brown people" folk a la six strings without engaging with the fact that many Germans have no idea where this wild fear of immigration comes from.
I thought engaging him on his tirade but said to myself, better wait and see, with that posting he's gonna be banned rather quickly. And voilá... Not that it's necessarily related but it happened. 
It's tiresome to have a certain discussion for the umpteenth time, idk how you guys do it here. Maybe it's got a lot to do with being a native speaker or close to one. It takes too much time and effort for me to provide solid sources when the other side just brandishes Italian newspapers or pictures by some right wing maniacs infiltrating NGOs and supposedly showing collaboration between said NGO and traffickers.
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On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people.
My view is a little skewed because I have a ton of experience with people who do not fit what you described. No matter how you slice it, there is a chunk of immigrants who have zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeero business being here and it bugs me. I think almost all of them are illegal and would not be granted immigration status legally. So perhaps my point is besides the point. All I am saying is that a large majority of a group can be good while a portion of the group is still very bad. I do not want to prevent the good, but I absolutely do want to prevent the bad.
Speaking locally, about the areas surrounding Portland, Oregon, there are definitely areas that are not so great that are very distinctly poor immigrant areas.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
There are good immigrants and bad immigrants - a fact accepted almost universally, with the exception of the unfortunately quite large group of folk who make the argument that immigrants are always good in the long run.
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On August 09 2017 00:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 00:23 Mohdoo wrote:On August 09 2017 00:17 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2017 00:12 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't see any value in the idea of just wanting to help struggling immigrants live a better life. Every single person we allow to immigrate should be profitable in some way and not just a way for us to pat ourselves on the back. Every refugee we allow in should be allowed in with an established amount of money spent on integrating them into American culture instead of letting them build little shit ghettos where they insulate themselves from American culture.
It is not difficult for a citizen to be profitable. But there is a large upfront cost that needs to be considered and I really just don't see a reason for us to create a Germany'esque situation. You don’t see the value of people who are willing to work hard to improve their standard of living and being the nation that provides them with that opportunity? And to let them become part of that nation, with all the rights and privileges that come with citizenship. I’ve never heard greater advocates for America’s greatness than immigrants who have come here and been successful. Immigration is complicated, but our plan for the last 200 years has proven to be a great way to assimilate immigrants and all reap the economic benefits. What you're describing is entirely profitable. I am fully on board with what you're describing. Not every immigrant is the way you're describing. A law abiding, tax paying, baby making immigrant is great for everyone. That is the overwhelming majority of immigrants. They are, in fact, very similar to normal citizens since they are just people.
Probably better than the average citizen, as immigrants are by default a group proactively trying to adjust their lives for the better. That likely skews the statistics a little.
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EPT
