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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 06 2017 05:37 m4ini wrote:
Why are you even talking about illegal immigration? After recent developments in regards to legal immigration, it should be rather obvious what the goal and reasoning is.
It's not people coming illegally. It's people coming full stop.
The argument "yeah but they're breaking the law, so we need to stop them - they're criminals!" doesn't work anymore once you cut (hardly overused) legal immigration as well. At this point it becomes pandering to an incredibly racist base.
the immigration debate has never focused solely in the lawlessness of it. but Democrats can't even come to terms with illegal immigration, so it's where the conversation has to start. if that's a hurdle imagine trying to reform or reduce legal immigration. Good heavens.
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On August 06 2017 05:46 Six.Strings wrote:
Perhaps I'm wrong on this point, but from the outside it looks completely transparent that Democrats want more immigrants because immigrants are more prone to be welfare dependent, so they'll vote Democrat, and Republicans don't want them because of the opposite reason.
you are wrong. and thinking it looks completely transparent on such a point as welfare dependency makes you look hyperpartisan and uninformed.
if you remove the welfare dependent part, then it'd be far more reasonable.
It more has to do with how personality types and the psychological underpinnings that may manifest as racism work.
of course republicans could capture the immigrant vote if they had somewhat different views, but those tend to clash with the psychological underpinnings of conservatism.
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Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people.
I hate to defend Trump on this (or anything), but that sounds to me like Democrats are the racists.
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United States24701 Posts
Six Strings where are you getting this from? You seem to be making it up to make Democrats look bad for some reason.
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On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people.
What are you even talking about?
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On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about?
I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on that's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak English
Something baity and stupid like that.
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On August 06 2017 05:52 micronesia wrote:
Six Strings where are you getting this from? You seem to be making it up to make Democrats look bad for some reason.
I'm getting this from the commentary I've watched over the past week in reaction to Trump's new curb on legal immigration.
Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! had a Democratic senator on the show who called Trump racist, Trevor Noah (shitty Jon Stewart) called the policy racist and during the WH press conference, several reporters at least implied racist motives when it came to the language requirement.
Huffpost (of course) and MSNBC both had articles calling the policy racist as well, why do you guys act surprised?
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well if you want to be technical wanting people who already speak english can be racist because it's favoring countries that have either a history of being colonized or countries that speak Latin based languages due to the similarity of language structures.
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On August 06 2017 05:46 zlefin wrote:
intro ->
your sources don't account for much; words by politicians, especially politicians iwth such an extensive track record of lying, mean very little in terms of assessing an honest willingness to negotiate. nor do you mention much in terms of actual concrete proposal, or what they're willing to give up. so I'm gonna take that to mean you have nothing to backup your claim that gop is truly willing to deal.
i'm gonna ignore your claim that about partisans seeing it some way, since you're one of the most partisan people around, and such people tend to misjudge others partisanship.
Then let's look at their actions. you ignore the serious legislative pushes that barely failed in recent political memory. They want high numbers of immigrant work visas. Many Republicans also do "but the statue of liberty!" routine.
This thread is far less politically informed than they imagine if they think the Republican caucus is full of people who won't accent amnesty.
On August 06 2017 05:52 micronesia wrote:
Six Strings where are you getting this from? You seem to be making it up to make Democrats look bad for some reason.
It does mainly have to do with votes, they love to talk about "the browning of America" and how if the GOP doesn't fix itself they will lose every election in the coming decades! etc etc
I mean immigrants or children of them from poor countries vote heavily Democrat. If we apply even half the cynicism we apply to the GOP to the Democrats then it is obviously about votes.
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On August 06 2017 05:55 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
well if you want to be technical wanting people who already speak english can be racist because it's favoring countries that have either a history of being colonized or countries that speak Latin based languages due to the similarity of language structures.
Yeah but that's still based on merit. What's wrong with having an immigration policy that benefits the people who already live in the country?
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On August 06 2017 05:55 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about? I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on t hat's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak EnglishSomething baity and stupid like that.
No, first of all, obviously I don't watch Fox, and second of all, Steven Miller tried to pull the same shit during the press conference and it was pathetic then as well.
My point is, implying that a merit based immigration policy is "racist", is kind of racist. Not that that word means anything anymore, anyway.
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Intro, you're still not providing any actual backup to your claim but more claims, you're not making any actual citations. So it seems the case is closed and you can't actually back up your claim of republicans being interested in honestly and truly negotiating a deal.
negotiation would involve actual compromise, talk about what you're willing to give up, the republicans would want work visas because their business sponsors want them, and dems would probably likewise favor work visas for the exact same reason; it's not a sign of compromise or being actually willing to negotiate a deal.
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The ones who point out the racist overtones of any policy proposal are the real racists.
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On August 06 2017 06:00 Six.Strings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 05:55 semantics wrote:On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about? I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on t hat's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak EnglishSomething baity and stupid like that. No, first of all, obviously I don't watch Fox, and second of all, Steven Miller tried to pull the same shit during the press conference and it was pathetic then as well. My point is, implying that a merit based immigration policy is "racist", is kind of racist. Not that that word means anything anymore, anyway.
Yes it does. Like this post for instance is pretty racist!
On August 02 2017 17:03 Six.Strings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 12:29 Nyxisto wrote:On August 02 2017 11:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 11:54 Nyxisto wrote:
It seems a little reflective of the whole "hire American buy American" thing that Trump has going on. In the politico interview someone posted earlier he was referring to Jefferson while he defended his protectionism. I don't really think going back to the economic policy of provincial farmers of the 18th century is a great idea. It's funny that the US at the same time are so successul at producing global businesses with some of the smartest guys from all around the globe but have this huge streak of nativist politics going on at the same time. Neoliberalism has gutted this country. In a perfect world we would be like Germany but with tighter immigration. Critizing the fact that America draws people from all over the world is kind of terrible, it's the unique strength of the US. It's like your superpower. Immigration criticism in the US is like critizing engineering and beer in Germany. It's what keeps the country running. Immigration to the US is already incredibly difficult I would imagine a lot more so than say Canada or Germany. Immigration into Germany is the easiest thing in the world, just show up while having dark skin.
America has no official language. A language requirement is nonsensical. Under these requirements most likely the current First Lady wouldn't be in the country for starters. Stephen Miller's own grandparents would 100% not have been allowed into the country.
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On August 06 2017 06:00 Six.Strings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 05:55 semantics wrote:On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about? I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on t hat's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak EnglishSomething baity and stupid like that. No, first of all, obviously I don't watch Fox, and second of all, Steven Miller tried to pull the same shit during the press conference and it was pathetic then as well. My point is, implying that a merit based immigration policy is "racist", is kind of racist. Not that that word means anything anymore, anyway.
you seem to be unaware of things like dog-whistle racism; and the different between the facial appearance of a policy and its actual intent. there's a very long history of such in the US, which makes assessment of a policy complicated.
the word is indeed overused; but that loss of value comes from all sides (well, mostly the crazies on both sides).
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On August 06 2017 06:12 zlefin wrote:
Intro, you're still not providing any actual backup to your claim but more claims, you're not making any actual citations. So it seems the case is closed and you can't actually back up your claim of republicans being interested in honestly and truly negotiating a deal.
negotiation would involve actual compromise, talk about what you're willing to give up, the republicans would want work visas because their business sponsors want them, and dems would probably likewise favor work visas for the exact same reason; it's not a sign of compromise or being actually willing to negotiate a deal.
You have requested something that is at this time unavailable. The GOP can't even negotiate among themselves. Your standard of an actual bill or proposal is ludicrous, since congressional debate on the subject is not underway (at least not in public). All I can do is point you do every other piece of possible evidence, but you have dismissed them out of hand.
By this logic we also have no proof of what the Democrats intend and desire, but somehow their position is not in doubt.
Edit: for some reason you only believe what people in the GOP say if it's something you don't like.
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On August 06 2017 06:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 06:00 Six.Strings wrote:On August 06 2017 05:55 semantics wrote:On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about? I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on t hat's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak EnglishSomething baity and stupid like that. No, first of all, obviously I don't watch Fox, and second of all, Steven Miller tried to pull the same shit during the press conference and it was pathetic then as well. My point is, implying that a merit based immigration policy is "racist", is kind of racist. Not that that word means anything anymore, anyway. Yes it does. Like this post for instance is pretty racist! Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 17:03 Six.Strings wrote:On August 02 2017 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 12:29 Nyxisto wrote:On August 02 2017 11:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 11:54 Nyxisto wrote:
It seems a little reflective of the whole "hire American buy American" thing that Trump has going on. In the politico interview someone posted earlier he was referring to Jefferson while he defended his protectionism. I don't really think going back to the economic policy of provincial farmers of the 18th century is a great idea. It's funny that the US at the same time are so successul at producing global businesses with some of the smartest guys from all around the globe but have this huge streak of nativist politics going on at the same time. Neoliberalism has gutted this country. In a perfect world we would be like Germany but with tighter immigration. Critizing the fact that America draws people from all over the world is kind of terrible, it's the unique strength of the US. It's like your superpower. Immigration criticism in the US is like critizing engineering and beer in Germany. It's what keeps the country running. Immigration to the US is already incredibly difficult I would imagine a lot more so than say Canada or Germany. Immigration into Germany is the easiest thing in the world, just show up while having dark skin. America has no official language. A language requirement is nonsensical. Under these requirements most likely the current First Lady wouldn't be in the country for starters. Stephen Miller's own grandparents would 100% not have been allowed into the country.
What? How? I'm just describing the reality of German immigration policy right now.
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On August 06 2017 06:16 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 06:12 zlefin wrote:
Intro, you're still not providing any actual backup to your claim but more claims, you're not making any actual citations. So it seems the case is closed and you can't actually back up your claim of republicans being interested in honestly and truly negotiating a deal.
negotiation would involve actual compromise, talk about what you're willing to give up, the republicans would want work visas because their business sponsors want them, and dems would probably likewise favor work visas for the exact same reason; it's not a sign of compromise or being actually willing to negotiate a deal. You have requested something that is at this time unavailable. The GOP can't even negotiate among themselves. Your standard of an actual bill or proposal is ludicrous, since congressional debate on the subject is not underway (at least not in public). All I can do is point you do every other piece of possible evidence, but you have dismissed them out of hand. By this logic we also have no proof of what the Democrats intend and desire, but somehow their position is not in doubt. Edit: for some reason you only believe what people in the GOP say if it's something you don't like.
yeah, you've got nothing and are being unreasonable.
if the gop can't even negotiate among themselve,s then they clearly aren't willing to negotiate a deal with democrats. QED.
it's not that hard to make actual bills or proposals; a good outfit would have numerous detailed plans already. many outfits aren't good (dems included, I don't like them all that much, they're far better than reps, but far worse than i'd consider acceptable).
and all the other possible evidence doesn't REMOTELY establish your thesis. it's mostly just bland political pablum and posturing, not serious attempts to actually try to intelligently solve the issue. you haen't even cited that much evidence, merely vaguely claiming some things, with few citations.
the burden of proof was on you, as you were the one making a claim. you failed to meet that burden of proof.
we know the dems are in general more willing to let government function, and to try to make reasonable regulations; we don't have much on their position in this particular issue.
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On August 06 2017 06:22 Six.Strings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 06:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 06:00 Six.Strings wrote:On August 06 2017 05:55 semantics wrote:On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about? I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on t hat's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak EnglishSomething baity and stupid like that. No, first of all, obviously I don't watch Fox, and second of all, Steven Miller tried to pull the same shit during the press conference and it was pathetic then as well. My point is, implying that a merit based immigration policy is "racist", is kind of racist. Not that that word means anything anymore, anyway. Yes it does. Like this post for instance is pretty racist! On August 02 2017 17:03 Six.Strings wrote:On August 02 2017 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 12:29 Nyxisto wrote:On August 02 2017 11:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 11:54 Nyxisto wrote:
It seems a little reflective of the whole "hire American buy American" thing that Trump has going on. In the politico interview someone posted earlier he was referring to Jefferson while he defended his protectionism. I don't really think going back to the economic policy of provincial farmers of the 18th century is a great idea. It's funny that the US at the same time are so successul at producing global businesses with some of the smartest guys from all around the globe but have this huge streak of nativist politics going on at the same time. Neoliberalism has gutted this country. In a perfect world we would be like Germany but with tighter immigration. Critizing the fact that America draws people from all over the world is kind of terrible, it's the unique strength of the US. It's like your superpower. Immigration criticism in the US is like critizing engineering and beer in Germany. It's what keeps the country running. Immigration to the US is already incredibly difficult I would imagine a lot more so than say Canada or Germany. Immigration into Germany is the easiest thing in the world, just show up while having dark skin. America has no official language. A language requirement is nonsensical. Under these requirements most likely the current First Lady wouldn't be in the country for starters. Stephen Miller's own grandparents would 100% not have been allowed into the country. What? How? I'm just describing the reality of German immigration policy right now.
"I described the policy in the most reductive and racialy charged way possible. How can this be racist?"
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On August 06 2017 06:22 Six.Strings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2017 06:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 06:00 Six.Strings wrote:On August 06 2017 05:55 semantics wrote:On August 06 2017 05:52 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 06 2017 05:51 Six.Strings wrote:
Also, aren't Democrats supposed to be the ones who are NOT racist?
Trump: I want people to come who are educated and speak English.
Democrats: That's so racist, that means you're not importing black people. What are you even talking about? I think there was a fox segment where a talking head put it as so we're only taking immigrants from Europe and Australia? being the snark remark to such requirements and the fox anchor went on t hat's super racist to think other people from other counties can't speak EnglishSomething baity and stupid like that. No, first of all, obviously I don't watch Fox, and second of all, Steven Miller tried to pull the same shit during the press conference and it was pathetic then as well. My point is, implying that a merit based immigration policy is "racist", is kind of racist. Not that that word means anything anymore, anyway. Yes it does. Like this post for instance is pretty racist! On August 02 2017 17:03 Six.Strings wrote:On August 02 2017 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 12:29 Nyxisto wrote:On August 02 2017 11:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On August 02 2017 11:54 Nyxisto wrote:
It seems a little reflective of the whole "hire American buy American" thing that Trump has going on. In the politico interview someone posted earlier he was referring to Jefferson while he defended his protectionism. I don't really think going back to the economic policy of provincial farmers of the 18th century is a great idea. It's funny that the US at the same time are so successul at producing global businesses with some of the smartest guys from all around the globe but have this huge streak of nativist politics going on at the same time. Neoliberalism has gutted this country. In a perfect world we would be like Germany but with tighter immigration. Critizing the fact that America draws people from all over the world is kind of terrible, it's the unique strength of the US. It's like your superpower. Immigration criticism in the US is like critizing engineering and beer in Germany. It's what keeps the country running. Immigration to the US is already incredibly difficult I would imagine a lot more so than say Canada or Germany. Immigration into Germany is the easiest thing in the world, just show up while having dark skin. America has no official language. A language requirement is nonsensical. Under these requirements most likely the current First Lady wouldn't be in the country for starters. Stephen Miller's own grandparents would 100% not have been allowed into the country. What? How? I'm just describing the reality of German immigration policy right now.
it sounds pretty racist to me whether it's actually racist is harder to tell. also, the skin tone of many of the people from problem areas isn't dark; by american standards they'd be classified as white iirc. have you considered that you might have some mild bias/racism that you're unaware of? or perhaps very different standards of what constitutes racism? reminds me of prototype theory, and other concepts of gradations, very useful things to know.
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